Uri Goren, the owner of the e-Fuchonder blog, contacted the World Health Organization with the claims of the vaccine opponents. Below are the answers he received
Uri Goren, the owner of the blog e-Fuchonder "about medicine, technology, social media and what comes out of it", decided that it was impossible to leave the social networks to the opponents of vaccinations, took the main complaints of those opponents (which we have already referred to here in the article of the Landsman Foundation: Polio - the twenty things every parent must know) and turned to the representative of the World Health Organization to clarify what required clarification. The pressure of the opponents increased with the announcement of the expansion of the polio vaccination campaign to the whole country, starting today (August 18, 2013).
Update - 18/8/2013, time 23:40 PM - The Ministry of Health reports that during the first day of the expansion of the "Two Drops" operation to the whole country, 30 thousand children were vaccinated in Tipat Halav clinics. Since the beginning of the operation in the south, about 60,000 children have been vaccinated, which is about 60% of the target population defined in the south. About the reason for expanding the vaccine, they write on the website of the Ministry of Health: "As soon as polio appeared in Lod, Ramla and Sharon, the findings indicated a consistent process of infection and spread. The results of the tests are clear and sharp, in Israel there is a wild polio virus that passes from person to person, from city to city. It's a matter of time until it reaches the whole country."
The operation was defined at this point for three months. However, it is recommended to get vaccinated before returning to school, in order to reduce as much as possible the infection processes among children, in kindergartens and schools.
And on the same subject: a good word for the latest news. After thatI criticized their "for and against" method, In which they brought up the arguments of the opponents of vaccines without criticism, the same reporters - Sarit Rosenblum and Yaron Kellner, bother to compare these claims with reality With the help of Prof. Yona Amitai, an expert in pediatrics and public health from the United Hospital Fund and Bar-Ilan University and former director of the Department of Mother, Child and Adolescent at the Ministry of Health.
It's a shame they didn't do it last week, instead of that miserable column that gave the feeling as if there were equal sides here.
And still there is not a single moment. The misinformation spread on the Internet is now also at the doorstep of the High Court of Justice. Network B website It is reported that the High Court of Justice ordered the Ministry of Health and Minister of Health German to submit by this Thursday their response to the request of the association "Izun Khur" to issue an interim injunction against the national polio vaccination campaign. Also, the ministry and the minister must submit a preliminary response to the court by September 1.
Avi Blizovsky
Uri Goren's post
I will store my children. First vaccinate the little one with the inactivated vaccine, then vaccinate my two children with the live attenuated vaccine. Why? Because I have no desire for them to walk around in the future with a virus that replicates itself in their intestines, and although the risk seems theoretical, if I have the option I'd rather prevent it. Also, I am also taking a step that will help society, all cancer patients, AIDS patients, transplant recipients and more...oh yes, and those who unfortunately will not be vaccinated.
In the last week I participated in quite a few confrontations regarding the vaccine. And I have some comments and insights because of this, also, following some questions I contacted the World Health Organization directly, mainly regarding the clinical trials and I received a detailed answer that I will already quote here.
Two more clarifications - I am not a doctor, and this is a certain limitation for those who come to talk about vaccines and the information here is not a substitute for an honest conversation with the nurse doctor or any other qualified medical practitioner. In addition, yes, I worked in the pharmaceutical industry and for a company that marketed and markets vaccines, and I am proud of that, but my opinion in connection with vaccines is independent, it is mine, and it was so even before I worked in the field. My father was also interested without having worked a minute in his life for a pharmaceutical company, and in 88 I remember he took me to get vaccinated, and asked to get vaccinated himself, but they told him he was too old.
One of the hobbies that opponents of vaccines have is to discuss the contradictions in the words of the Ministry of Health, I will not deny that the ministry made some mistakes in conveying the message, but the opponents of vaccines also present some circular arguments, and also some that omit parts of the information:
Dangerous if it's old, dangerous if it's new.
One of the arguments against the vaccine and against the Ministry of Health is that it "confuses" the public - either it is an old and familiar vaccine or it is new. Only the anti-vaccines do the same thing - if it is old, then it has been "taken off the shelves" and it is dangerous. And if it is new - where is the clinical trial, the vaccine is dangerous. Well here too there is a loop. It's just that the facts are on the side of the Ministry of Health - because the vaccine has two main parts - all the covering components and the part of the virus inserted into it. Below you will see the explanation of the World Health Organization. But the similarity is with the flu vaccines - every year the strains are changed, but the vaccine remains the same vaccine. All that needs to be checked is that the strains are the right ones and have been prepared in a known way for the vaccine and produce an immune response (quantity of antibodies). The situation is quite similar here with polio - the entire vaccine is the same, therefore its safety is known, while one strain was removed - which changes the balance of effectiveness as well as the effects associated with removing strain #2. Therefore, the question of the clinical trial is more related to the effectiveness of the strains - which are prepared in the same way and tested Do they maintain their effectiveness in creating immunity even when one strain has been offered. (Expansion below)
"Get off the shelves"
So it's not. The live attenuated vaccine was not taken off the shelves. No one denies that the vaccine has a rare phenomenon of paralysis resulting from the vaccine. Therefore, it was decided to stop vaccinating with it routinely, thereby minimizing and completely eliminating the risk of paralysis, and to save it only for situations where its benefits are significant - during an outbreak. This is completely different from taking off the shelves, it's not a decision not to use at all, it's to use the conditions. And when the conditions for the emergence of a wild virus are met, it will be used, also in London and Paris.
Western countries
Suddenly, using a western country has become a marker for safety? After all, for the opponents of vaccines, the HPV vaccine is also incorrect, the pentavalent vaccine, the flu vaccine, any vaccine - and the question of the Western world is not relevant for them. Secondly, even in other countries once they distribute millions of doses, which is what they did, and follow through the World Health Organization there is safety information. And this vaccine was distributed in third world countries to the majority who are still affected by polio (by the way, not least due to resistance to vaccination).
Even more interesting is the fact that many of the opponents of vaccinations use as a substitute "natural" healing methods that originate in the East and in countries where the vaccine is given.
Weakened to stun, paralyze or not
So here are the very clear statistics, from the State of Israel itself, even with the "old" and "dangerous" vaccine, there was not a single incident of paralysis when in Israel they gave a dead person before he was weakened. From 88' to 2004. Despite this, due to the principle possibility of such a paralysis, they stopped. Now when a live and strong virus arrives in our country, the balance of risks changes, so we return a weakened one for response purposes, not routine. In any case, the statistics of millions of vaccinated people is stronger than any small clinical trial - and the statistics say that not a single case of paralysis occurred.
Don't want to defend the opponents
Well, this is not an argument of known anti-vaccinators, because it is a shot in the foot for them. This is the parents' claim that equality of arguments has been created for them - even though science and experience are mainly in one area, while the other side is mainly supported by open questions and no real answers. But here is the failure, those opponents that you refuse to protect, these are the people who drive the discourse and ride on the story in order to continue carving out more supporters for themselves. That is, by actually giving the stage to arguments and relying on them in order not to vaccinate, you are promoting the agenda that you supposedly do not want to "endanger" your children for. I noticed that many, at least everyone I argued with did vaccinate the children with the inactivated vaccine...
It already happened once and we didn't vaccinate
One of the interesting sections is the use by the opponents of the fact that in the past polio remains were already found in the sewage system and then we did not vaccinate the population. Naturally, this is seen as a contradiction to the decision, but actually it only confirms the idea that the Ministry of Health is exercising discretion. First, also in Israel, when the diagnosis began a few months ago, they did not immediately start vaccinating, but waited and asked to see if there would be a spontaneous disappearance. But she wasn't. The fact that the ministry does not automatically respond to every detection of a virus is actually encouraging and not cause for concern. After all, if the heads of the Ministry of Health were working for the pharmaceutical companies, the economic interest would say as soon as possible they would bring in money. Well, the previous times it wasn't like that. Also remember that the proximity to the time when we still vaccinated with a live attenuated virus meant that the relevant population (the one not vaccinated with an attenuated virus) was significantly smaller than now...and that must have been a consideration.
Fire on the head and ice on the feet
I would also like to refer to the new media situation born here. The parable that comes to my mind is from one of my communication lecturers when I talked to him about the doctrine of balance. This doctrine, which unfortunately is still widespread, says that the media should balance between sides - you bring a MK from the left, the next one from the right... and hence it became the case that if you brought in a doctor who supports vaccination, bring in front of him one who opposes vaccination. Only this is where the parable fits - a person whose head is on fire and whose feet lie in ice does not create a temperature balance in the middle of his body.
The media should examine critically and meaningfully who is behind the counterarguments, what is the support? What is the science behind it? And when you look at it, there is no solid scientific basis, there are open questions that are so-called intelligent but without a deep and supported reasoning, while the other side is backed by a tremendous experience of vaccination, studies and information as much as possible.
Putting the parties as equals only strengthens the opponents.
In the seventh eye, poignant articles were published about the so-called journalistic conformism that does not check the questions of the opponents of vaccines. It is interesting to know, would we hear the same claims regarding articles that talk about the fact that the world is round. Every time someone supports this fact, will we bring someone who opposes it? Or should a creationist who claims that there was no evolution at all be brought to every question about evolution? Because opposition to vaccines has become a kind of bon ton, the opponents and the issue are treated as a so-called scientific controversy, but it is not.
The World Health Organization's answer
The question I asked concerned the question of the clinical trial, and I contacted researcher Sutter from the Indian study who works for the World Health Organization and I wanted to understand whether the Indian trial is also valid for GSK... and this is the answer I received from a doctor on his behalf, there is a lot of information here about the concept of vaccines, it is complex
Because it's a complex issue. I will translate as best I can:
Thank you for your question directed to the World Health Organization. Before I give an answer to the question regarding the two-strain live attenuated vaccine, I would like to give a brief explanation of how the regulation works among vaccines that have already received approval and license, and their variations and its clinical trials.
First, clinical studies are required in order to answer specific questions related to the effectiveness of the product, the necessary dosage and its safety. The size of the clinical trial is important in terms of its ability to detect side effects after vaccination. Clinical studies will often be able to identify very common, common, and uncommon effects, that is, those that occur in less than 1 in 1000 vaccinees. There are clinical trials designed to diagnose even rare side effects. That is, those who fall in about 1 in 10,000. Recent examples are the rota and HPV vaccine trials. In order to diagnose rare cases, at least 30,000 vaccinators and more are required to sign up for the trial. In any case, truly rare cases cannot be pre-diagnosed through a clinical trial and therefore there is a surveillance system for the vaccine after its approval that monitors the effectiveness and safety of the vaccine lasting decades and dictionaries of doses. These systems are able to track signals for very rare phenomena, which in turn can lead to searching and carrying out specific studies. In short, there are limitations to clinical trials.
Second, as mentioned, clinical studies have specific questions that they seek to address. If the quality of the study is considered satisfactory, the results serve the purpose of the study, and it would be unethical to request additional clinical studies for questions that have already been answered through the study. If it is necessary to repeat studies with different descriptions, in different populations or in different age groups, the rationale for conducting additional studies must be clear. There are special clinical studies called "bridge studies", which use existing knowledge and build on it in order to provide information on new questions, without having to start from scratch.
The live attenuated vaccine has been used worldwide since the 60s, in a tri-strain formula that uses strains 1,2, 3 and 1 of the Sabin polio strains. The two-strain formula contains strains 3 and 1, with all the other content of the vaccine being the same. The vaccine strains used are the same strains from all manufacturers, they are well characterized - there is no need to generate additional information for them. What is required is confirmation that the two-strain vaccine works at least as well or better than the three-strain vaccine in the sense of creating an immune response to strains 3 and XNUMX. This question was answered in Dr. Sutter's experiment. Due to a good correlation of potency (non-clinical tests routinely performed on each batch of the vaccine) and immunogenicity (non-clinical laboratory tests that check the production of antibodies), regulators can decide to approve monovalent attenuated vaccine (mOPV) and bivalent vaccine (bOPV) based on the information this one only. In addition, there are results of a clinical study done by GSK (not yet published), confirming the immunogenicity of the vaccine as published in a previous study.
We understand that the sudden need to add a live attenuated vaccine to fully vaccinated children in Israel has created many worries and concerns. I want to use this invitation to refer to them:
Live attenuated vaccine has been discontinued (banned) in other countries.
While many countries have certainly stopped using the live attenuated vaccine and replaced it with the killed vaccine, this is done on the basis that there is no active virus circulating And in order to remove the risk of paralysis as a result of the vaccine, a known phenomenon of the live vaccine is weakened. Another strategy to effectively reduce the risk of vaccine-induced paralysis (VAPP) is to give the inactivated vaccine first and then the inactivated vaccine. No country has banned the use of the live attenuated vaccine. The live attenuated vaccine is needed to fight infection and transmission of wild polio after it re-enters.
The live attenuated vaccine is not used in Europe
Many countries have not used the live attenuated vaccine in the routine immunization schedule for several years, no country is using the bivalent vaccine at this time. These countries, like Israel, have accumulated data from children who have never been exposed to the weakened live vaccine, so there is a possibility that they will replicate the virus in their intestines and become infected as a result. The two-strain vaccine is not approved for routine vaccination, but for vaccination as a response to an outbreak. There are parents who thought it was irrelevant to vaccinate vaccinated children. However, such a vaccine is necessary, because every family is likely to have sensitive people in it, or in their immediate environment.
The children in Israel are part of a huge clinical trial
Conducting clinical trials requires resistance to strict conditions of conducting trials under adequate conditions. All trials should be registered, supervised by independent bodies, the purpose and scope should be clear and the participants must agree and participate.
The provision of the two-strain vaccine that has a license is not a clinical trial, but rather a step to protect public health in order to stop the transmission of wild polio that jumps at the opportunity to reproduce among people who are vaccinated against polio with the killed vaccine, but do not have the vaccine in the intestines required in order to stop the replication of the virus. The Israeli Ministry of Health responded to the proliferation of polio in the population by choosing the live attenuated vaccine, as there are no other alternatives.
The answers were provided by Dr. Dina Faber, Department of Preventive Vaccines Against Epidemics, World Health Organization, Regional Office for Europe, United Nations Relief and Works Agency, Denmark
51 תגובות
If they had invested a tenth of the entire campaign and energies of the war against the corona virus, which is less dangerous than ordinary flu, in the war against sugar, which is the enemy of humanity, they would have saved a lot more... something here does not smell good to say the least
This is me…
Amichai
The intention is a weakened vital only... What happens is that the weakened vaccine is much cheaper than the killed vaccine, and therefore it was used, and only it, in certain trials. On the other hand, when it is given without the killed vaccine, there is a certain danger in it.
It is worth remembering that in the whole world, there is not a single confirmed case, not even one, of a person vaccinated in a dead manner who received a weakened vaccine and became ill.
of course. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a group of liars who oppose vaccination, without any real reason.
Beyond that, the vaccine given today is safer than the same vaccine that supposedly caused problems in the past (again - when we vaccinated in a weakened form without the killed vaccine).
Mr. Goren, please correct/clarify:
In the paragraph "live attenuated vaccine has been discontinued (banned) in other countries." registered:
"Another strategy ... is to give first the inactivated vaccine and then the inactivated one."
Should it be: "first the killed vaccine and then the weakened one" ???
Thanks
Shimrit
Sorry, but I'm not the one lying. Since the regular vaccination in Israel began in 88, not one of those vaccinated has been sick. It is certainly possible that some idiot parent did not vaccinate his children. Too bad there are still such idiots...
Good guess about India - India is a country with a very large population, a very low level of hygiene in many of its areas - and it is a virus that passes through the digestive system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganges#Pollution
When you come to examine and give facts to the public, you don't have to lie.. The writer claims that there were no cases of children from 1988 in Israel who were harmed as a result of the vaccine and this is nonsense! I personally know two people who participated as a result of the polio vaccine
point
Listen, my friend.
The weakened vaccine used in Israel since 2004.
Everyone accepts it, except for a few idiots who think they are smart.
There has been no case since of anyone contracting the disease.
A number of carriers of the virus have been discovered in Israel, therefore, according to the instructions of the World Health Organization, the OPV (weakened) vaccination must be carried out to prevent the spread of the virus.
There has been no case since of anyone contracting the disease (I already said that, didn't I?).
And let me tell you a secret... The pharmaceutical companies are losing from the vaccine!!! On the one hand the vaccine is very cheap, on the other hand a polio patient needs extremely expensive medical treatment.
But ….. a criminal like Haim Rosenthal, who opposes vaccination, also happens to sell a “homeopathic vaccine” against polio. Here you have a fake doctor who is a lousy liar and is ready to kill people (literally) to change tires on his car.
another one
What happened in India is that the reported increase in the number of paralysis cases is completely unrelated to the polio vaccination that was administered. This has been proven "beyond a reasonable doubt".
Think logically - this vaccine has been given over 10 billion times in the world. Why exactly in India would this cause such a phenomenon?
Miracles, I'm not against vaccines. I am not one of the opponents of vaccines. Except that there is a special situation, just like there was with the swine flu. They brought a vaccine for nothing.
Here too, they just store. There is nothing and still in stock. So stories are made up.
Follow The Money
Miracles - what happened in India is a lie?
my father
Point's sentence sums up the approach of the opponents of vaccination - but what he really says is - "Why would I vaccinate my children to prevent others from being infected?". It's just like asking "Why am I in the army?"
The story about India is nonsense and there is nothing to expand on.
There is no real danger in receiving the OPV vaccine. There is a huge benefit in this vaccine. There is no real debate about that.
The skeptic's opinion, based on the multiplication of lies (not his) and stupidity (also his own) against many years of research and amazing successes of an organization to which many millions directly owe their lives... I know what I am choosing....
Spring.
India is an example that haste is of the devil. They rushed to carry out an operation to eliminate wild polio and received in its place an epidemic of derived polio.
India is an example of covering up failure.
The name of the article I brought in the pdf file is
LET DECLARE VICTORY AND MOVE ON
And in Hebrew: we will declare victory and move on.
Until now, it's actually the World Health Organization WHO is declaring victory and calling to keep moving forward. Another such victory and we are lost, endangering the citizens of India. If WHO declares "victory" over "failure", can it be believed in other matters as well? Should we naively believe the announcements of the Ministry of Health in Israel that the vaccine has zero risks? When I mention India I mean that festive announcements can be misleading, and that the vaccine can cause much more damage than we are told.
My opinion is that there is no need to rush the oral vaccine, first we need to find out what exactly is going on and then plan well. A claim that there is a mass wild polio epidemic in our country is just scaremongering. At most, individual patients will get sick, as happened in Israel in 1988. According to my memory, if I'm not mistaken, half of the polio patients in 1988 were wild polio patients and half were derived polio patients (that is, they got sick from the oral polio vaccine). The matter of the distribution of polio patients in 1988 still requires an examination which I am currently tired of doing.
The poor get vaccinated so that the rich don't get diseases
It has already been said, it is a fraction of the cost of a swine flu vaccine - 1 part 500 to be exact. - Shekel for a vaccine dose. The state has so far spent (according to Channel 2) 5 million shekels on the information campaign. Don't worry there have already been idiots who claimed that something is suspicious if it's cheap, must not be good or something like that, they don't understand what a generic drug/vaccine means.
By the way, the result of the scaremongering that succeeded in defeating reason in the swine flu is that people died from the swine flu. These are young and strong people who died that year from the flu instead of the old men and babies who die in normal years. Since the seasonal flu that year was weak, no one noticed an unusual figure (in the number of deaths from the flu, but very unusual in their age mix), but believe me if these people had been vaccinated, they would have seen almost zero deaths from the flu that year. Where is Wakefeld and why isn't he in jail for this senseless killing?
So before you bring up again the wrong argument of the swine flu, which apparently did not kill anyone even though only 10% were vaccinated, read the following article. https://www.hayadan.org.il/did-the-pigs-fly-1607101/
Allow us to be skeptical... It seems that this is a simulated epidemic that, in the worst case scenario, will infect the Israeli sewage pipes with polio. Add to the equation the financial profit and the coupon that will be issued by the company that produces the "vaccine" and you will receive a great motive to cause panic among the public. The song "The public is stupid - and the public will pay..." It's just a shame that those who pay will be toddlers who will probably pay with their health.
skeptic
As already said, I'm not sure the India example is correct, so if it is the basis of your argument you should think again.
To Roy and to every Man Dbei.
Roy, the troll is also attacking you.
Don't get excited about it. After I address the actions of the troll I will add things regarding the vaccine itself (the oral polio vaccine). The other things are listed under the long comma, so you can skip straight to them (after all, who cares about the troll's harassment).
The responses to you by someone marked as "anonymous user (unidentified)" are responses of a troll who hides his identity by not registering his usual nick.
Before that, the same troll attacked me in every way, using different nicknames. Since in one of the odd nicks the troll used the nickname "counselor" I called him "Counselor de la Shemte" later in his comments, this is a suitable nickname for a troll like him.
As a troll, there's no point in feeding him, there's no point in responding objectively to his words, any litigation with him gives him another opportunity to harass people. It is best to ignore him as much as possible.
As for the supposedly factual criticism he voiced against me, rest your mind, his criticism is not factual but merely spiteful. He would attack me if I wrote that the sun rises in the east, he would attack me if I wrote that the sun sets in the west, he would attack me if I wrote that Einstein developed the theory of relativity, he would attack me if I wrote that Shakespeare wrote the play "Hamlet". This troll is a man with a mental disorder, he attacks me obsessively while hiding behind anonymity.
--------------------------------
Regarding my approach to vaccines in general, this is not the place to explain it in detail. I'm just saying that I'm not overwhelmingly opposed to vaccines, I'm opposed to giving vaccines excessively and without proper testing. Vaccines are dangerous tools that can be very harmful if we are not careful with them. The disaster in India where the reckless vaccination against normal polio (an epidemic of a wild virus) caused an epidemic of derived polio (an epidemic of weakened viruses) - shows that every vaccine (also in Israel) requires careful consideration so that it does not cause great damage. Vaccination in Israel is done hastily while spreading slogans such as "vaccination is safe with zero risks".
Yesterday, an interview with an Indian expert in epidemiology was apparently published in Israel, who warned of the epidemic disaster that is now happening in India due to a rashly administered polio vaccine (the interview with him may have been on the TV news program "Lila Night Tube"). It is possible that this is one of the two authors of the article I gave a link to (I gave above a link to a pdf file on the rapidshare file server). I did not watch the TV show with the Indian epidemiologist but according to viewers he is very reserved about how the two-drop oral vaccine is administered. Hopefully someone with initiative will upload the interview with him to the youtube servers. It is desirable that every citizen of Israel be exposed to an interview with the Indian epidemiologist.
As mentioned, I hope that there will be exposure in Israel to the disaster that is happening in India today as a result of a reckless and failed polio vaccine. If there is such an exposure - the opponents of rapid vaccination against polio will not be treated as a handful of stupid people.
What is certain is that the opponents of hasty vaccination against polio in Israel are no longer a handful. A poll on Channel 10 conducted yesterday seems to indicate the following result:
46 percent of the respondents refuse to *immediately* vaccinate their family members with the "two drops" oral vaccination campaign.
The haste is from Satan.
If I find time, I will post more comments regarding the "two drops" oral vaccination operation, not just the matter of the vaccine failure in India. There is a lot of worrying information regarding the "two drops" operation. I try to publish only reliable information, information that is not well known to the general public.
And not the same rascal who brought the (wrong) story from India:
India records one year without polio cases - WHO announcement from a year and a half ago
Those who are young do not really understand what polio is. The vaccine is designed to prevent this disease. The vaccine has been shown to be effective. The risk has been shown to be extremely low.
There is no logical reason not to get vaccinated.
But ….. when your kids are vaccinated anyway and the vaccine is actually meant to help others who can't get vaccinated … this is where you find out how much scoundrels people are. Just shocking!!!
I will not repeat your personal comments towards the body of a commenter instead of the body of a subject, but the reactions to him and to you are the same reactions, and they are legitimate and to the point.
In my first response I said that the responses given to safkan's words were irrelevant and some of them in particular were based on generalizations and stereotypes, as you have done now.
Of course you expressed your personal opinion about the vaccine. himself.
More in your first comment: https://www.hayadan.org.il/who-answers-on-polio-1808138/comment-page-1/#comment-443797
You expect something that did happen, and then you complain why you weren't informed.
(Perhaps you didn't notice that you are also informed here on the website - but you choose to ignore the facts and continue to think as you usually do).
Is the claim that the article was not objective in the transparency of information the one that made you assume that I am against the vaccine?
After all, I did not express my personal opinion regarding the vaccine itself.
Roy, so you are like a skeptic who opposes the vaccine, so you are in the minority. And not to mention that your experience in the field is very low to the point of a fraction of the experience in the field of qualified doctors on behalf of the Ministry of Health. thats all.
(And your evasions along the lines of: "Ministry of Health hides and acts to the detriment of the public" are appropriate for the Scientology community)
Father, I read the article at the time (and now once more) and it is not at all relevant to what was said in this discussion. This is a one-sided article that follows to defend a very particular point of view and does not aim to present the data as it is and without bias and thus allow the reader to form an opinion on his own.
In the article "Polio - the twenty things every parent must know" there is a detailed answer to each of the claims.
I don't understand this one-sided attack on safkan.
I didn't get the impression that this was an agenda against all vaccines in general, but claims and reasons describing problems with the particular vaccine against the polio virus given here (vaccination using a live-attenuated virus). All the arguments that were given by safkan, were brought in a very reasoned way and with references to external and scientific sources (scientific studies/articles, medical journals, etc.), but at the same time there was no counter reaction to the substance of the matter.
Doctors Only was established and is managed by the Media Pharm group, as a joint venture with the Medical Association (MHA)
Spring.
Do you call doctorsonly.co.il in the name of anti-immune missionaries?
This is an information site for doctors and medical services of all colors and types.
The target audience of the site, according to my impression, is the mainstream of medical services.
Vaccination matters are a very small part of the interests on the site. His articles on polio are because the subject is newsworthy.
This site has one small "defect": it is not a judge of the Ministry of Health or a similar government body.
The fact that anti-immune missionaries open a website and call it a respectable name does not require us to treat it as such.
I hope to be able to publish information about polio that is not getting enough media coverage. Among other things, I would like to publish information about what doctors think about the *polio vaccination campaign in Israel* (referring to the oral polio vaccine campaign called "Two Drops").
Before I post different and detailed responses, I draw your attention to a website of doctors in Israel called doctors only. This site can be found in the following link
http://doctorsonly.co.il
The doctors only site is open to the public despite its name. If while surfing a window appears asking whether the surfer is a doctor or not, answer the question honestly, even if you are not a doctor you can surf there and probably even participate in the discussions.
The doctors only website publishes information and journalistic articles aimed at doctors in Israel. Some of the articles get comments. A significant number of respondents are doctors and other medical workers who provide additional information that is relevant to the article. There are also surfers "with you" who respond there if they have interesting information or interesting questions.
The website doctors only recently published at least two articles relevant to the current oral polio vaccination campaign (two drops campaign). There were commenters on the articles who provided additional relevant information. In the articles and comments there you will reveal information relevant to the Two Drops operation that is not known to the public. You will hear on the website about information that is not included in the media pimp of the Ministry of Health (about the two-drop polio vaccine operation). Some of the information is about: the real goals of the operation, the opinion of medical professionals about the various dangers involved in this aggressive vaccination, and so on.
Eran
You are right in your feeling that the weakened virus is more dangerous to the public than the Ministry of Health tells us.
However, to be fair, your theory that the weakened virus undergoes mutations that enhance its virulence is not based on accepted research information. According to accepted research information the virus is weakened and hardly mutates when it causes an outbreak of derived polio diseases. Derivative polio diseases are caused by the weakened virus itself when the virus infects people with weak immune systems.
The management of a sloppy polio vaccination campaign could bring together a weakened polio virus with a population with a weak immune system. This is what happened en masse in India and claimed hundreds of thousands of polio vaccine victims. The polio epidemic in India is still in full swing and has not abated yet.
The derived polio epidemic in India is caused by the weakened viruses contained within the vaccine material, these are the original weakened viruses.
The resulting polio epidemic in India doubled the annual number of polio victims by about 6 times compared to the number of polio victims before the start of the oral vaccination campaign there. I repeat the main point:
*The failed vaccination campaign in India roughly doubled the number of polio victims*.
Let me be clear, yes I think the general population should be vaccinated.
But as a democratic country I expected the Ministry of Health to inform that there was a risk.
It is not true that there is no risk in any substance, even vaccines may endanger some people to such a different extent.
There have been cases in the world where the polio vaccine was able, with the help of natural selection, to reproduce some of the properties of the original virus.
However, the ratio between those who die from infection from the virus itself and those who die or are affected by the vaccine is huge.
Even water in certain quantities kills people, ask the parliament of New Zealand.
The response of the "skeptic" is delayed at the moment, and it seems that he is not interested that anyone qualified in the field does not think like him and does not agree with him.
skeptic
Why are you hiding the fact that in India they wipe with the left hand you know what.
(And it's not Abu Shukron's hummus)
My response is currently delayed. I am currently trying to send an abbreviated response.
The delayed response includes a link to an article published in a medical journal in India. This article argues that oral vaccination in India has done more harm than good.
For those who don't know, following the oral vaccine in India, the number of polio cases doubled approximately 6 times. The new polio epidemic is caused by an attenuated polio virus included in the oral vaccine.
The failure of oral vaccination in India.
Link attached.
In my reply above I mentioned the mass disaster caused by the oral polio vaccine in India in recent years. The polio vaccine paralyzed hundreds of thousands of Indians by creating a new kind of plague. The number of victims of the vaccine is *many times greater* than the victims of ordinary polio (polio from a wild virus), the epidemic in India has not stopped and the number of victims continues.
The new epidemic in India is an epidemic created by *weakened polio virus* included in the oral vaccine.
In that response I did not include a link to an article in an Indian medical magazine reporting on the grim situation in India. This is because there is an incomprehensible block to most of the links to this article. That is why I am including a link to a PDF file that includes this article.
https://rapidshare.com/files/2136210830/polio_india_false_victory.pdf
When you are told that the weakened virus in the oral vaccine is not dangerous, do not believe out of naivety: in India at least the weakened virus has done more harm than good. The weakened virus is dangerous under the right circumstances.
Well, at least the readers here can understand who does not store and spread diseases...
kick them out!
point:
And that the Ministry of Health who knows more than you thinks the opposite of you is really not important. You invite all the idiots to listen to your voice and ignore the fact that this live virus was given to all the children of Israel for 15 years without a single bad thing happening.
You are willing to sacrifice people to the dangerous polio virus that causes serious illness and certain death, only to find out once again that a virus that has been proven to cause no harm really does not cause any harm.
What do I say and what will I speak?
Logic incarnate!
Excellent post!
Thanks to the writer and the site for bringing the things, and all on their behalf, with references for those who want to investigate further.
This is an excellent example of presenting a controversial topic without the usual banter in our districts.
As usual, the article lacks linguistic editing, perhaps due to the relative haste in which it was written. This is a note to the website: Linguistic editing will upgrade you significantly. It is worth finding volunteers who know Hebrew with a scientific education, or invest the next shekel in this field.
My long response to epochonder's article has not yet been published for technical reasons. In the above long response I present strong evidence that: Oral polio vaccine under certain conditions is no less dangerous than polio itself.
In a few words:
The wild polio virus was eradicated in India, but then a worse epidemic called derivative polio broke out in India. Derived polio is the disease caused by a weakened polio virus. Attenuated polio virus is the virus included in the oral polio vaccine.
The medical article that tells us about the deterioration of the polio disease in India, in recent years, due to the oral polio vaccine - will be presented as evidence of my statements. For unclear technical reasons - the access to the website where the article in question was published is disrupted. The delay in publishing my speech is so that I can give, as part of my speech, a link to an exchange site where the article was published.
The special thing about that article is that the article is short and popular in its wording, therefore it is understandable without too much effort on the part of the reader.
Another special thing about the article is this:
The article points to various highly senior medical officials as those who are hiding from the eyes of the world public the outbreak of the polio epidemic in India. Paralytic diseases derived from polio in India are presented by the same senior medical authorities as paralytic diseases from other causes.
For those who want to read the article immediately through Google searches or in other ways, I bring here:
* Title of the article,
* his authors,
* The medical journal in which the article was published
Polio program: let us declare victory and move on
N Vashisht, J Puliyel –
Indian journal of medical ethics, 2012
Yes, Michael. I would expect a number of people to die before even starting to look into whether or not it's worth introducing a live virus into a million citizens.
When you introduce a live virus into the body just like that, it shows that the considerations are very different than public health. Because the risks of this are not worth the risks of all kinds of questionable assessments.
By introducing a live virus you create a new risk. Mass infection of a predatory polio virus that may have been accidentally injected into one of the millions of vaccinated people. And a one in a million mistake is something that can always happen.
Then instead of vaccinating you created a new disease.
But the public is friar enough to believe everything they are fed on the TV screen.
At least I'm not hiding my identity. Try to look for who the man behind vaccines is on p. Read about him.
Second, I put a full disclosure that I'm not a doctor, and I don't get paid for this post and maybe it's a shame. And speaking of it, they did tell how much money it surprisingly costs, the opponents of vaccines treated it as too low a price indicating low vaccine quality. On the other hand, someone else checked and discovered that it might actually be too expensive. Each vaccine dose costs one shekel
point:
So you're saying we have to wait for someone to die?
And by the way - can you control the fact that as soon as someone dies there won't already be hundreds who have been infected?
I didn't ask you what evidence is and we have known for a long time that people become paralyzed or even die from polio.
Michael, evidence is when someone dies.
When you push vaccines without calculation, it encourages suspicion. There are hidden interests here.
For example, cigarettes cause a lot of diseases, and yet it is legal. So to say that the state cares about the real health of the public is a bit unbelievable.
It's true that it's not shoes, but in an ad hominem sense and your accusation that he makes an advertisement for drugs for a fee probably justifies a defamation lawsuit (only that the fact that you don't identify yourself makes the matter more difficult)
This ad is an ad. An advertiser writes for the money he receives, he is a pen for hire, brings selective science for the money. Neither ad hominem nor shoes.
point:
"There is no evidence that there is any danger at all from all this chatter"
What evidence exactly are you waiting for? Whose life and health must be sacrificed for you to be convinced that the polio virus causes polio?
skeptic:
What does the identity of the author of the article have to do with the topic?
The things written in the article are the words of the World Health Organization.
And by the way - is the fact that he is an advertiser relevant to the matter? Your entire response is an ad hominem logical fallacy.
And in general - everyone who writes something on the website does so because he wants to publish his words - so what makes an advertiser special?
By the way - maybe you could tell us what your profession is and what your background is in general so that people can judge if they want to hear the opinion of XXX who is also YYY on the subject of vaccines?
That is, they have techniques to deceive the public.
Full disclosure on epochonder who wrote the article here.
Here is the main material in which the writer of the article above describes his field of activity. The text is taken from the ABOUT page on the blog of the author of the article. From this description you will see that the author of the article is a communication consultant in matters of medicines and medical treatment. In other words, the writer is a type of advertiser whose clients are various medical entities. In other words, this article may be an *advertisement* article to promote the oral polio vaccination process (vaccination by oral administration of weakened polio).
*** Will you trust an advertiser who will give you objective information? ***
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"We should be on Facebook!", "What about digital marketing?" "Why do you need digital activity for the professionals?" "How do you deliver health content on digital platforms?" These are questions that are asked more and more in conference rooms of companies and organizations that deal in the field of pharmaceuticals and health. The questions that come immediately after - but what to do? Is it effective? They are questions that, in order to answer them, require professional knowledge and information that is not always available. And if it has already been decided to carry out, then the regulation comes and turns every project into a long and complex discussion, which external bodies usually do not have the knowledge to help. This is the exact point that the e-Fuchonder company aims at.
The e-Fuchonder company was founded in order to provide consulting services and digital solutions to entities engaged in the field of health in Israel. This field, which is relatively in its infancy in the field of health, is a fertile ground for extraordinary activities both in front of the patient audience and in front of the professional audience and is therefore gaining more and more importance.
I have 12 years of experience in the health care system as a communications consultant for leading organizations such as Clalit Health Services, Teva, Perrigo, Sanofi, MSD, the Association of Anesthesiologists, the Association of Plastic Surgeons. For the past three and a half years, I have served as a spokesperson and digital media manager for the Neoprem Group. There I was a partner in projects such as the Bulbul campaign to promote condom awareness.
In addition, I lecture at international and Israeli conferences on the field of digital and health.
I have extensive experience and familiarity with both the world of health and the health system, Illia and its special needs, as well as an in-depth knowledge of the digital world in its various dimensions: websites, social networks, advertising, content development, mobile and more.
I write a blog that bears the name of the company and deals with the connection between the world of medicine, life sciences and technology, with social media and digital in general.
I graduated with a bachelor's degree in communication and management from the College of Administration and a master's degree in philosophy, information and digital culture from Tel Aviv University.
Apart from the professional part, he is also married and Yanon's father, of course he is interested in other things, and there is a chance that you will read about it here as well.
I would be happy if you would contact me:
"We should be on Facebook!", "What about digital marketing?" "Why do you need digital activity for the professionals?" "How do you deliver health content on digital platforms?" These are questions that are asked more and more in conference rooms of companies and organizations that deal in the field of pharmaceuticals and health. The questions that come immediately after - but what to do? Is it effective? They are questions that, in order to answer them, require professional knowledge and information that is not always available. And if it has already been decided to carry out, then the regulation comes and turns every project into a long and complex discussion, which external bodies usually do not have the knowledge to help. This is the exact point that the e-Fuchonder company aims at.
The e-Fuchonder company was founded in order to provide consulting services and digital solutions to entities engaged in the field of health in Israel. This field, which is relatively in its infancy in the field of health, is a fertile ground for extraordinary activities both in front of the patient audience and in front of the professional audience and is therefore gaining more and more importance.
I have 12 years of experience in the health care system as a communications consultant for leading organizations such as Clalit Health Services, Teva, Perrigo, Sanofi, MSD, the Association of Anesthesiologists, the Association of Plastic Surgeons. For the past three and a half years, I have served as a spokesperson and digital media manager for the Neoprem Group. There I was a partner in projects such as the Bulbul campaign to promote condom awareness.
In addition, I lecture at international and Israeli conferences on the field of digital and health.
I have extensive experience and familiarity with both the world of health and the health system, Illia and its special needs, as well as an in-depth knowledge of the digital world in its various dimensions: websites, social networks, advertising, content development, mobile and more.
I write a blog that bears the name of the company and deals with the connection between the world of medicine, life sciences and technology, with social media and digital in general.
I graduated with a bachelor's degree in communication and management from the College of Administration and a master's degree in philosophy, information and digital culture from Tel Aviv University.
Apart from the professional part, he is also married and Yanon's father, of course he is interested in other things, and there is a chance that you will read about it here as well.
———————————————————————————————————–:
Word washing.
There is no evidence that there is any danger at all from all this talk of polio replicating and all kinds of inventions designed to introduce live viruses into the public's body.
And one more thing, why doesn't anyone talk about money? After all, it always was and always will be money. Why are they hiding this whole thing from us?
And in short, where things are hidden there is cheating. And the one who is enough to put a live virus into his body that will perfume him.
If anyone thinks they are being taken care of up there, let them wake up and see how many people are dying just because they didn't have hundreds of thousands of euros to carry out treatments.