An article by researcher Prof. Hendrik Bruins from Ben-Gurion University in the prestigious journal Science states that the eruption of the volcano in Santorini preceded the 18th Pharaonic dynasty and occurred during the Hyksos period
A new article published this weekend in the prestigious journal Science and referring to new developments in carbon nuclear isotope dating (carbon-14 type) sheds new light on the chronology of Pharaonic-Egyptian history, which has far-reaching implications for historical dating.
The article, specially commissioned by the scientific journal and written by Prof. Hendrik Bruins of Ben-Gurion University, states, for the first time, that based on this dating, the eruption of the Santorini volcano in the Aegean Sea can be attributed to the Minoan period in connection with Egyptian chronology. This is the largest volcanic event in the eastern Mediterranean region in the last 5000 years, that is, in the entire history of the dynasties in Egypt. Therefore, the researcher states, it seems that the same eruption preceded the 18th pharaonic dynasty and occurred during the Hyksos period. Moreover, according to him, the conventional association of Egyptian history with the archaeological findings of Tel el-Daba, the capital of the Hyksos Everis in the eastern Nile Delta, do not match the carbon 14 dating.
Prof. Hendrick Bruins is a faculty member and researcher in the Man in the Desert Department at the Blaustein Institute for Desert Research at the Sde Boker Campus of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. His scientific research focuses on the second millennium BC.
"There are fundamental problems here in the connection between the eruption of the volcano in Santorini and the archaeological dating, between the carbon-14 dating and the connection to the archaeological database in the field with the Egyptian historical chronology," says Prof. Bruins.
Science chose, in its issue of January 4, 2008, the article by Prof. Bruins and his research partners, as an outstanding article within the "Editors' Choice" section of its issue. The article revealed a new finding according to which a devastating tsunami hit the island of Crete in the Aegean Sea during the Minoan civilization about 3.500 years ago. The study proved that the tsunami took place during the great volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini.
38 תגובות
Hadar:
I just happened to notice your comment.
She is stupid, to say the least.
Obviously, when I defend the truth and my interlocutor defends a lie, he comes out of the story badly, but does that mean it is better to lie?
You probably think so, because when you receive medical help it seems that you will not thank the doctors and medical researchers but rather those who prayed for your recovery and did nothing in practice to make their prayers come true.
Michael Rothschild.
Even though the debate here is a matter-of-fact debate, and even though it deals with scientific facts, I will turn from science for a moment and ask to refer to something else.
The way you proved your righteousness, the righteousness of your wisdom, your ideas that are well supported by scientific theories actually make me dislike you very much.
My soul cries out when I see one person talking to another like that. I was in so much pain and it hurt.
You tried in every way to show that your opponent is nothing more than a mindless fool and lacking in scientific education, and what you succeeded in doing was getting the slime out of you.
In my opinion - even if you are right, and even if your method is the right one - the swelling, the pride, the disdain, are sleeping in such vapors of stench - the wind that I cannot ignore.
Even people with a lot of knowledge, who have wisdom in all fields, do not have permission to speak with such disdain over the web site.
More than that it reveals your wisdom, it reveals what is inside you - high spirits and rot.
What a shame that we look like this..
Picture you, in a few years - an old man without teeth, unable to eat, in need of relief..
So, when you need help, ask for the good eye of mankind and see who are ready to help you-
The high-minded scientists or the people who believe in G-d and the "nonsense" of sages.
Maybe then your eyes will be opened to see how much man, with all his wisdom and nobility and other virtues, is nothing but a creature in need of mercy.
I wish all the people of Israel would have the privilege of learning about the knees of David ben Avraham and his fear of the heavens.
It's better in my opinion than anything else.
http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3480323,00.html
Sure, David.
You made it clear to us in advance that you would not let the facts confuse you.
That's why I told you that your participation in this site is a waste of time.
Another small thing, even if such a reality is not revealed in other things as I have presented it, it will not change a thing or half a thing for me. The fact that the world (from the word "the leaves") is built in such a way that the process of creation is hidden from the eyes of mankind and disappears from the eyes of all, and indeed the devices already reveal that atoms are older than the time of creation, as if the structure of the atom underwent a certain change process. And as mentioned above, for me it means everything.
Uncle:
It's a shame you're wasting your time here on the site and ours.
I choose what to believe according to its correctness and not according to where I was born.
I do not believe lies and I am not able to believe lies. What to do? That's me!
By the way - most scientists are like this - As you can see here and also HERE And your uncles don't really interest me.
You continue with your lie about Einstein.
Einstein claimed that there is no God who intervenes in the world.
He argued that the clergy are wrong to cling to this twisted idea instead of addressing the real problems of the world. So it is true - he only scolded them and did not go out to harvest them with a machine gun - because he was a scientist and not a prophet of some religion.
He was also a public figure and therefore also paid lip service here and there but his beliefs were clear as day and you have to be completely brainwashed to ignore it again and again and try to claim the opposite.
One of the logical fallacies that the Datleys are guilty of is the fallacy of appealing to authority. They are used to the authority of rabbis. The secular have no such authority. Even if Einstein was a repentant freak it would not sway even a single thinking person from his mind. What's more, he didn't believe in any version similar to the established religions and believed in Spinoza's God, that is, the God that manifests itself in all natural phenomena. Nature exists. God no. And God, like Einstein's, does not say that it is forbidden to pick one's nose on Shabbat, and therefore also for this reason you do not need to use it as an example.
An astronaut is not a scientist. He is an additional trained pilot. He can believe in green rabbits but as long as he is suitable for his role they will take him.
As far as I remember, Mordechai Bashari closed down the only science newspaper in Hebrew "Mada" (and its children's branch "Ladat") because they supported evolution. Indeed a broad-minded and tolerant person.
By the way, he was not a minister but the director general of the Ministry of Science.
If you are real with yourself, thank you for already disputing Einstein. Einstein was not opposed to science and belief in God. On the contrary, Einstein claimed that religion that is not based and supported by science is nothing but a flawed religion. Assuming that religion is true, science can therefore only strengthen faith and nothing else.
Again, go back to Einstein's writings and you will see that he did not accept two concepts in Judaism: 1) that there is private supervision; 2) And that God can intervene and change the laws of nature.
For your information: my wife's uncle (Prof. Mordechai Bashari), a scientist and jurist for atomic sciences by profession and a former minister in the government, is a rational person with a critical mind, and in addition to that he is a religious person (with a knitted cap) and demands about religion at every opportunity. It is said about him: "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God." As for you, unfortunately, I'm afraid that everything you want to promote (ie your scientific concept) will not succeed, because the main thing is missing in the structure of a healthy and solid thought.
The American astronauts who reached the moon believed in God, and you who were born Jewish won't believe??!!
David ben Avraham:
There is a difference between human error and Sinaitic Torah in only one sense:
"Torah from Sinai" is just one of the many human mistakes that can be made.
How do you know that the Torah is from Sinai if in the days of Josiah no one knew its laws (XNUMX Kings chapter XNUMX)?
All in all, they found a book in the temple that has no proof that it even existed before.
He said from now on - Torah from men - when he was in the days of Josiah - and the status of Mount Sinai probably did not exist at all.
There are dozens of ways to measure the age of the world and carbon 14 dating is only one of the ways to measure historical time (by the way - it has nothing and nothing to do with measuring the age of the world because carbon 14 does not survive long enough, in such orders of magnitude other materials and other methods are used).
All the ways give results that agree with each other and there really is no doubt that even humans already lived tens and maybe hundreds of thousands of years ago.
Therefore there is no reason for me to try to find what brought Chazal to write the nonsense they wrote.
In my previous response I explained this by allusion, but it turns out that you are not wise, so I repeat and say explicitly: what the Sages said regarding the age of the world was nonsense and there is no reason for me to try to justify this nonsense.
All your imagery with gases is nothing but hot air. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Your pretension - as if you understand something good from the scientists when it seems to me that you are not even dealing with a common cat - is pitiful.
Scientists' understanding of the world has created most of the things that make your life possible today - including the ability you are given to browse the Internet.
None of this is the result of your vanity beliefs.
Michael Shalom
There is a difference between human error and the Torah we received from Sinai. There are also differences of terms, so the truth as it is presented in the Talmud is not always absolute. But those who say that the world came into existence by itself with all the beauty and order and wonder in it are nothing but turning a blind eye to reality. And especially when we look and observe the human being himself who is the most wonderful of all! A wise person will ask why were all these created and what is the purpose of all this order and beauty? And if the world was indeed created, surely its creator is good and will not abandon his world and its creatures without purpose and guidance.
And if it is easy for you that the earth has the ability to support life and that it is itself dynamic (made as an active force) and vibrant, look at the other planets and you will see the difference. And you say it's all a coincidence???!!! How desolate they are without being able to sustain life, compared to the place we live in.
And in the meantime, you have given no excuse, no explanation, and no reason why only 5,771 years have passed from the creation of the first man to the present day, while the scientists discover through carbon-14 dating that the world is much more ancient than what is stated in the Torah. The idea we propose is wonderful and makes sense. To illustrate this I will give you a parable. Sometimes light and invisible things like gases, when they are in certain conditions (such as gases that come in contact with the air and there is a vacuum), can create a feeling of coldness and even create ice in the air. If it is said that the speech that came from the mouth of a higher power (God) is similar to the gases and air in the parable, then it is no wonder that when you estimate the age of the world (=the ice) it will not be less in years than the existence of the power of speech itself (=the gases, the air and the vacuum before they were mixed). So it is spiritually and physically, although it is difficult to measure and estimate the years of spiritual things. Supreme grace that the new creature can be measured and estimated its years. (That's how it seems in my humble opinion)
David ben Avraham:
Your words remind me of the following piece:
3 cows walk in a straight line in the desert.
There is no other cow in the area.
The first cow says: "There are two cows behind me"
The second cow says: "There is a cow in front of me and a cow behind me"
The third cow says: "There is a cow in front of me and a cow behind me"
how is it possible?
Answer:
The third cow is lying.
This is exactly how I explain the age of the world according to the Sages (who also thought that lice were created from human sweat and mice from mold and also claimed that a cow's trachea splits into three parts, one of which connects to the liver).
Hello Michael Rothschild
I admit that I have not studied all these subjects and I certainly do not understand most of the concepts known to you and the process of carbon-14 dating. Suppose I could learn a certain thing from you, how would you explain - according to your knowledge of these scientific subjects the age of the world according to the Sages (ie 5,771 years) and what is revealed in the carbon-14 dating? And can we not say that there was a certain change in the atoms as soon as they took their visible form at the time of creation, and what we define as "that the world has existed for billions of years" is actually the change that took place from a spiritual thing to a tangible thing and is precisely what made us think that matter is more ancient. At last there was an embodiment of words that already existed with the one who said and the world was God.
David ben Avraham:
If you really want to hear what I think - I will tell you that I think your words lack any grip on reality and are based on a misunderstanding of almost every scientific concept mentioned in them.
For example - it seems to me that you do not even have a basic understanding of the essence of the carbon 14 dating process.
Uncle
The world does not 'stand as it was at the time of its creation'. In truth the world is dynamic and not static.
It only seems to you, as a creature, that the world is standing still, and that's only because you haven't lived long enough to see the whole world change, but what you do see are the small changes in it.
And I wanted to share with you the idea I had. Write
"By the word of God the heavens were made, and by the spirit of his mouth all their host." - Psalm XNUMX:XNUMX
There was already someone who referred to the aforementioned Mimra and said: "Indeed, in every creature His (God's) speech flows in his veins." And this is nothing but a parable.
And when I looked at his words, I realized the magnitude of their meaning. And this is the reason, sometimes the scientists estimate the age of the world by using radioactive dating - that is, carbon-14, and say that the age of the world is billions of years, when in fact the world is only 5,771 years (5,771 to the creation). It is a known fact that everything is made up of atoms. According to the above explanation, the atoms that give form to all creatures existed with God long before their existence, until they reached their current form. And this is the reason why the world seems to be ancient even though the world has only existed for XNUMX years.
This is how it seems in my humble opinion and there is no contradiction between science and Judaism.
And if they ask why the difference between the age of the world and the rest of creation, it is simple. All other civilizations have regenerated, while the world stands as it was at the time of its creation.
From me, David ben Avraham
PS - I would love to receive your comment on this matter, if at all it makes sense to you.
To the straw man, Iran Valley
The Egyptian-Greek historian Menton who wrote in the third century BC the book of history that from then to this day everyone relies on and is not suspected of loving Israel, wrote that the Israelites were expelled from Egypt together with the Hyksos (and in fact they were part of them) by Pharaoh James.
According to the new dating, this pharaoh lived around 1550 BC, now let's see how it fits with the rest of the information:
Exodus/deportation of Egyptians around 1500 BC, at the same time the explosion of Santorini that brings darkness, volcanic ash that colors the water of the Nile, many deaths in Egyptians.
The island's population is disappearing (but not extinct)
Back: 400 years of exile in the Egyptians, that is, the period of the ancestors around 1900 BC - the Early Bronze Age, there is no contradiction to the archaeological findings.
Go ahead: the Israelites migrate in the desert, the volcanic ash causes a drop in temperature and an increase in the amount of precipitation for several years (it must be remembered that a large part of the migration took place in the north of Sinai and the Negev (the Kadesh-Arad line), which usually have a borderline amount of precipitation for the existence of nomads, and after the eruption, the amount of precipitation increased .
Around 1500-1450 the Israelites arrive towards the eastern Jordan and then towards the western Jordan.
In 1200 B.C., Marfnach fought with "Israel" in the land of Canaan and according to him he leaves no trace of them, he does not mention a king of the Israelites and this is consistent with what we know of a number of judges. Since he is also not suspected of loving Israel, his words can be taken as fact.
We don't know exactly how many years the period lasted, but according to biblical sources (Yiftah) it lasted more than three hundred years, Misha, the king of Moab, fought in the ninth century BC against the king of Israel, and conquered the area of "Ish Gad" that sat in the place of "from time immemorial" meaning before His historical memory is also not suspicious of his love for Israel, so his words can be treated as fact.
Some Aramean king fought at that time in the "House of David", meaning that there was a royal house related to David at the beginning of the first millennium BC (the inscription is currently in the children's wing of the Israel Museum).
At the same time in the 12th century B.C., a new average Agian people appeared in the area, the prophet Amos (Shabwadi was not one of their fans) claims that their origin is in Keftor at the same time as the origin of the Israelites from Egypt. Most researchers claim that Keftor is Crete and as I remember the inhabitants of the island "disappeared"
As it seems, the main archaeological facts, the history of the surrounding nations that was written in "real" time immediately after the occurrence, the historical "narratives" of the Egyptian, Jewish, Moabite, Philistine and Samaritan people (the heirs of the histographic tradition of the Kingdom of Israel) are in line.
But at the time of the pharaohs they knew nothing about carbon 14
Thank you Mr. Shimron.
Does this support or contradict Velikovsky's thesis?
Clarifications:
Read the quote below: "And referring to new developments in nuclear isotope dating of carbon (carbon-14 type) sheds new light on the chronology of Pharaonic-Egyptian history, which has far-reaching implications for historical dating"
After reading the original article, one can say that it is a lot of fuss (since it was published in Science), about very little.
The findings of the article support almost without reservation the accepted dating of Egyptian kings found based on archaeological considerations in the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt. But contradicting the dating of German scholars (we showed them, thanks to carbon) who delay the times by several decades.
The article says nothing about the Hyksos, as no specimens have been found that have been confidently characterized as Hyksos.
The valuable findings are the reference to the Santorini eruption, and the creation of a debate on the background of conflicting findings with carbon 14 dating made three years ago regarding one of the most interesting archaeological sites in Egypt.
The amount of light that the article sheds on Egyptian history is very small, all archaeologists, professional and amateurs can sleep in peace.
It's so easy to set you on fire t……..
Relax, they just worked on you
To 16
The time of the ultra-Orthodox of the old breed has passed and will never return.
Now, all the latter sound like Haredim, of a new breed :)
to Mr. Haredi,
You were given the opportunity twice, to run a country, in both cases it ended in disaster, ruin and destruction. The destruction of the first house
and the destruction of the Second Temple, with all that implies. You will not get a third chance.
orthodox:
If you want to live in Iran - you should know that you can do it today.
The house was destroyed because of gratuitous hatred
To the "Orthodox" - unfortunately it is true that in 30-40 years you will be the majority here, but don't be happy -
There will be no one to work and provide for you and your ten children,
And there will be no one to serve in the army regularly and in reserve and watch over you.
I guess you ultra-Orthodox will just run back to Brooklyn because for you Zionism is a crime..
With your own hands you are bringing the destruction of a third house.
BSD
Gentiles!!! Abomination!! Cry out the mercy of heaven and advise and sew!!
Soon when we the true Jews will rule, we will make sure that the words of abomination and destruction as written in this article,
Will not be published!!
Unbelievable the bastards in the movie were right lol
Listen well, friend
Go watch the movie (of course you can download it from anywhere... you can also via WNET CO IL
The.Exodus.Decoded.2006.DVDRip.XviD-EPiSODE.[wnet.co.il].avi
Which describes exactly how the Exodus was according to purely scientific tools
I promise not to put up even one more post here in my entire life if someone who sees the movie doesn't suffer from a severe case of jaw dropping..
Neither God nor anything by the way...completely science
Opponents of the exodus from Egypt and the connection to the Hyksa culture say that the exodus was not at all in the same area and neither was the eruption of the volcano... and the research here also confirms what they researched and showed in the film that the eruption did happen during the Hyksa culture period which means around 1500 BC more or less to the best of my memory..
In any case, a spoiler for the movie..almost every blow that happened can be explained by the eruption of Santorini since it was the only recorded eruption in the history of the so-called "super volcano"...the eruption wiped out the Minoan culture and made names for the whole area...watch the movie and you will understand
The article is not clear, what is the change in dating compared to what was accepted until now
The article is really misleading. The research was done by several groups from Britain, France and even from the Rekanti Institute in Israel. Hendrik Bruins was invited by Science to write a summary intended for the general public about the article, he is certainly not involved in the current research itself.
Giving correct credit is very important!
Lali:
A founding myth such as the Exodus is indeed important for the construction of the narrative of the people of Israel,
But at the end of the day it remains just a myth and should be treated as such.
There is no ancient culture in the Middle East region (except Judaism)
in which a similar event appears in the captions
Even in a small way for what we call the "Exodus from Egypt", neither in his "miracles" nor in the freeing of slaves
A massive following followed, chasing them down and destroying the Egyptian army as a result.
After another reading (wow, Khartoum really wrote this article...)
It seems to me that the meaning is that the period in which the researchers thought the dynasty existed
The 18th, in practice should be much earlier. Through the volcanic event and the dating
His exact chronology will require researchers to readjust all the dates
the historical ones and move the 18th dynasty to an earlier period on the timeline.
If I'm not mistaken, this is more or less the period when the Israelites left Egypt, something that can explain many of the phenomena written in the Torah about that period, "the 10 plagues on the Egyptians."
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not really sure about it, but from what I was able to understand "between the lines"
The historical documentation of the volcanic event dates it back to the 18th dynasty
of the pharaohs, while according to geological dating made by carbon 14
The eruption was much earlier than indicated in the Egyptian scriptures.
This is a contradiction that needs to be reconciled somehow
I read, double-checked and triple-checked and I'm not ashamed to say that I didn't really understand the implications of the research on the accepted dating of the various Pharaonic dynasties.
Does the research support Dr. Velikovsky's dating?
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/328/5985/1489