Noah's flood - apparently based on the event of the flooding of the Black Sea with the waters of the Mediterranean, took place, but perhaps not in the dimensions that the researchers from Columbia University believed, who raised it a decade ago * Researchers from the USA and Romania now claim that the level rose by at most 5-10 meters, although This is also enough to flood large agricultural areas
Did a catastrophic flood of biblical proportions delineate the coastlines of the Black Sea 9,500 years ago, wiping out Neolithic settlements on the former shores of the small sea that was there before? A geologist from the Oceanographic Institution in Woods Hole, and his two colleagues from Romania, reported in the January issue of the Quaternary Science Reviews that if the flood did occur, it was on a much smaller scale than other researchers believed.
The researchers examined sediment cores from the delta of the Danube River, which empties into the Black Sea. From the analysis of the findings, the researchers determined that the sea level was about thirty meters lower than their current height and not 80 meters as suggested by other researchers.
"We are not seeing signs of a flood-style disaster as others have claimed," said Livio Giussan, a geologist in the Department of Geology and Geography at the Woods Institute.
Ten thousand years ago, at the end of the last ice age, the Black Sea was a lake and was cut off from the waters of Marmara and beyond - from the Mediterranean Sea by the Bosphorus. The debate in the geological and archeological community focused on the question of whether, when the glaciers melted and sea levels all over the world began to rise, the Bosphorus sill was gradually flooded or whether a flood broke through it, washed away an area of 70 thousand square kilometers and wiped out all the early Neolithic culture in the area. In addition to questions about the rate of the flood, researchers continue to debate the extent of the flood - a debate that focuses on the question of what the level of the Black Sea was 9,500 years ago.
In the late nineties, they claimed Bill Ryan and Walter Pittman of Columbia University Because they discovered geological evidence and estimated that the water level of the Black Sea at that time was about 80 meters lower than its current height. They hypothesized that the effect of the flooding of the Black Sea required the shifting of agricultural groups to central Europe and the spread of the story of Noah and his ark, as well as flood legends among other peoples. (See also the first chapter of the bookNoah's flood' by Ryan and Pittman)
A source of uncertainty fueling the debate regarding the Black Sea flood is the difficulty of obtaining true markers as to the level of the sea on the day of the flood. "The sea level is like a holy grail" said Giussen. "You can't really talk about a flood if you don't know what the exact surface level was in both the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, and that's what we're trying to find out."
The scientists tested the geochemistry of the sediment layers, trying to locate flooded beaches or dunes created by the wind, but there is a problem with this method. Sediments can be eroded by the waves and currents and sand deposits created by the underwater currents can be mistaken for beaches or dunes. "Instead we used the land level of the Danube delta plain as a marker for sea level, this is a huge area that cannot be confused with something else" said Giussan.
A river delta is formed when the river empties into a body of water. He deposits layers and builds a flat plain - the delta - at a distance of a few meters from the shore and therefore it is a marker of sea level. In 2006, a team led by Giussan showed that, contrary to Soviet-era data that showed a sharp rise in the level of the Black Sea, the stages of development of the Danube Delta show that sea level has been the same as today for at least 6,000 years.
To continue researching back beyond 6,000 years, in 2007 Giussan and his colleagues dug a new core to a depth of 42 meters at the mouth of the Danube River, the largest river that flows into the Black Sea. Their goal was to reconstruct the history of this area of the delta before and after the flood - by studying the sediments. They also compared the findings from this core to other findings excavated in the area, and discovered fresh water deposits in the delta that was formed approximately ten thousand years ago. Above it they found clear marine findings and above them - the deposits of the modern delta.
"It's amazing" said Giussan. "The first delta was formed in a lake of fresh water several hundred years before the flood. And after the flood, the marine sediments covered the entire delta area." Finding the age of each layer is quite a challenge. To attach dates to each layer in the core the scientists used radioactive carbon dating on the fossilized shells of animals found in the core, for example clams and snails. However, in energetic areas, waves can erode the sediments on the sea floor and plant old oysters in newer sediments. To address these concerns, Giussan and his colleagues used an approach not previously attempted in the Black Sea. They used a mass spectrometer and only looked at trailing clams, meaning those where the two sides of the clam are still bound together as they were when the creature was alive. The clams are held together by an organic material that wears away easily when the animal dies, so the parts usually separate when the creature dies. When a double clam is found, this means that it has not been moved by the waves and is a sign that it was left where the animal died.
After the researchers dated and reconstructed the history of the delta plain they were able to determine the level of the Black Sea. They found that the level of the Black Sea at the time of the flood was about 30 meters below the current level. Determining the amount of water that washed through the Bosphorus is still problematic. There is still no reconstruction of the height of the sea water in the Sea of Marmara, but according to Giussan, indirect methods indicate that it was then only 5-10 meters above the surface of the Black Sea.
"Therefore, if this is true, this means that the strength of the flood between the black areas was only that of a level elevation at a height of 5-10 meters and not 50-60 meters," Gisan said. "Still, even a level rise of 5 meters can have an effect, for example flooding the Danube plain and submerging under water about 2,000 square kilometers of excellent agricultural land. This had an impact on the archeology and anthropology of southern Europe, as well as on our understanding of how unique the environment created by the Black Sea is."
35 תגובות
was the strongest
Guys, for those who want to know, Rabbi Yochanan in the Gemara also says that the flood was partial, see there. And you should read Prof. Moshe Keva's article, if you really want to hear the words of science: http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/noah
/kav.html
point:
What are you complaining about that you didn't understand?
Noah's words were not meant to be understood but to be memorized.
Do you think he understands them?
Noah:
You're just rambling and wasting my time. That's why this is my last response to you.
The link I forwarded in my previous response is a link from an association established for the issue of equality in burden. She is not interested in the ultra-orthodox specifically, but in all of them, but, amazingly, what she finds out in the tests is that the most extreme group of dodgers is the ultra-orthodox group.
Anyone is welcome to contact the association and check its data - it is not satisfied with false statements like you.
There are other people who do not enlist - some for mental reasons (and you will be surprised - there are also ultra-Orthodox among them), some for criminal reasons (and you will be surprised - there are ultra-Orthodox among them) some because they are in the desert (and you will be surprised - there are also ultra-orthed among them) some for health reasons (and you will be surprised - there are also among them Haredim) etc.
The largest group - as mentioned (more than twice as many as any other group) is that of the ultra-orthodox and this is without reducing their share in the other groups.
It is true that the ultra-Orthodox are using democracy to lead us to an undemocratic state. It's really unfortunate and I hope someone will come to their senses and block this way.
The entire Israeli hi-tech industry - the one that keeps the country alive despite the ultra-orthodox evasions - originates from the same education system which - in recent years - due to the ever-increasing bias of funds to the ultra-orthodox training system - is deteriorating.
Before the drift of the last few years, this education system produced the layer of people who today carry the country on their backs - a layer of which I am a part and which turned the State of Israel into the country with the most start-up companies after the USA. The State of Israel has more start-up companies than all European countries combined!
So yes - the religious taming managed to severely damage the secular education as well and it turns out that you are proud of it.
To correct the distortion, the money must be taken from all the religious kishkushiada and invested in education.
Of course, this will also take care of part of the demographic problem, because if an ultra-Orthodox has to work and support his children instead of relying on education allowance and child allowance, he will make a different calculation.
Your disgusting image of a drugged youth does not even come close to reality and this statement alone justifies the termination of the conversation with you.
Michael
Your laundromat of lies baffles me, you are brainwashed by the media and as an enlightened scientist this does not suit you, go out and check yourself before making demagogic statements:
1) The money received by those idlers is less than or equal to what the people of culture and sports receive.
2) Factually - the patrons and dodgers in the secular society is equal to the ultra-orthodox society. (Passed under the hand of an official document of the Ministry of Education about this)
3) The politician who determines what core studies are, is the one who determines by raising his hand how much money will flow to the holy yeshiva. We said democracy, didn't we?
4) I definitely agree with you that one who does not study has no place in the beit midrash.
5) Core studies, one of the sad jokes. The wild youth, the ripe fruit generation that grew up in your company, proves exactly how valuable this core is.
6) The members of the Hesder yeshiva actually serve for a year and a half, but are obligated to their position for 4 years, and in all the recent wars they are the first to be called together with the regulars.
7) When your children and others like you travel after the army for 3 years abroad and roll in drug and sex parties somewhere, on the other hand, the people of the Hesder yeshiva are engaged in the resettlement of the land and the flourishing of the settlements of the book and distressed towns.
The truth is too strong to be denied.
Nice, I didn't understand. You wrote that the Torah preceded the world. And you wrote that the flood happened as told in the Torah. So what came before what.
http://www.shivyon.org.il/52572/%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%AA%D7%9E%D7%98%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90%D7%99#%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA%D7%95
Noah:
I am not lying to myself. It is you who lies to others.
The ultra-orthodox - although they are not a large percentage of the population - are the largest group of 18-year-olds who do not enlist. Then they learn in the kollel about a bull that hit a cow and get paid while a university student actually pays. Before that, they send their children to the independent education that made sure to pressure Yuli Tamir to remove him from the core subjects.
By the way - even the more normal among the religious - the people of the Hesder yeshiva - serve less than half the time that humans serve.
So much for your lies to others but here, at least, even if you don't admit it, you know you're lying.
Where you are lying to yourself is your blind faith in a book written by someone who doesn't understand much thousands of years ago.
Hugin:
And why did you say that?
Michael:
A 'broken record' is eventually thrown away.
You lie to yourself all the time with increasing opacity.
The Judaism you speak of is almost non-existent.
We are a very healthy society that advocates the love of the people and the country, serve in the army like everyone else and pour our blood on the land of our ancestors.
Engaged in research and development at the same time as strict adherence to the Torah and mitzvahs.
Strictly adhere to 'the sweat of your brow eat bread' together with 'dying in the Torah'.
There is no contradiction at all and vice versa.
We see a great blessing in the work of our hands.
The claws that are stuck time and time again in our flesh, are not ours. Explore and find out of Mihan.
resting,
The situation you describe is indeed the situation and it is not clear that it has a solution.
It might disappoint me, but when the majority of citizens do not serve in the army and do not work, the country will collapse.
I hope that we will be able to save you from your own devices before you destroy everything, but it's really not safe.
Michael
I'm happy to disappoint you. That this 'stupid' public you defy is on the rise compared to the general population. Not long ago a study was published that already today we stand at 49% of the general population. And with God's help, within a decade there will be a 'dumb' majority here, who will see to the correction of the current deviations of the government and the legal system. Yes, science will also be boosted and enlightened in a new light from the perspective of a clear faith and without darkness and escape from the reality of the exile in which you are ensconced.
There is no way to stop the move, a handful of seculars from the generation of monkeys, raising a child and a dog will not be able to.
Look for your 'lifeline' perhaps from the remains of Noah's ark.
Hugin:
You keep getting dirty in your own way.
I read the response, understood it, and all I found appropriate to dedicate to it is the response I wrote.
He wrote that he looks down on me and laughs.
He's not up and his laugh is crazy. I stand in front of him and see this and it really scares me.
That's why I wrote what I wrote.
You wrote that I am a politician.
Where did you wink this lie?
Can't you be satisfied with the nonsense of the new age and the Torah that you feel obliged to invent your own lies?
The trends that Noah and his friends are pushing for and the inexhaustible lies from which his responses are derived frighten me to such an extent that, contrary to what I have done all my life, I have decided to work towards the establishment of a party that will try to deal with the stupidity.
Since I am not a politician, I did not agree to be on the party's list for the Knesset, but the activity of this party seems to me to be one of the last lifelines for the country from the destruction that people like Noah and you will bring.
Noah:
Don't despair, my predecessor didn't read your comment at all, and if he did, he doesn't understand.
His mind is cast like cheap iron and there's no way they'll move it otherwise he won't have any existence left, so we'll give him up.
Besides, he is a politician,,,
So, the main thing is that he thinks he understands more about matters of fundamentalism and ignorance.
Fine.
Noah:
Your crazy fundamentalism makes me cringe with fear.
When I look down on you, your nervous vibes make me roll with laughter.
I also enjoyed seeing your photo, an evolutionary creature descended from the ape (for your belief only) embalmed in a suit and tie.
Michael, my friend, only faith will give peace of mind to your troubled mind in a desperate attempt to find explanations for all the complexities in the world.
Now seriously, I greatly appreciate any attempt to investigate, understand and educate, the Torah favors this very much. There is no place to hide behind books.
There is another side and it is the real one, to Judaism you know and it is time for you to sober up, not all of them are exiles with beards and even a Jewish gonzo.
As a researcher and a scientist, I came to the knowledge of the Torah from the lack of knowledge and the nothingness of science, and more precisely in my case of medicine - their lack of knowledge is extremely frightening, the patients in their hands are nothing more than laboratory mice.
Only if we explore and deepen in every field of science can we advance our world, but truly explore and not plaster over or bury other worlds.
The Gaon Rabbi Eliyahu Moilna wrote that a Jew who lacks a 'hand' (referring to some part) in the wisdom of science lacks 10 hands in the Torah!
And yet the solution is only to combine the two.
And for those who happened to watch the grotesque film of lies linked from Noah's response:
Read what you find on the Google Scholar website when you search, for example, for Ron Wyatt (one of the "scientists" who appear in the film).
The passage is on page 238 found in the chapter - unreliable sources in the following link:
http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Wendel%20Paul%20J.pdf?acc_num=kent1207843937
Noah, to think differently:
So you didn't understand how I didn't go straight in to respond.
At least that's something you admit you don't understand!
There is so much more that you do not understand and you pretend to understand that the misunderstanding you mentioned is the least of your troubles. Just add her to the endless list!
There is no need to rummage with the rabbit. You asked me not to upload it because you don't have an answer.
You also have no answer to the Torah's far-fetched claim that the Euphrates and Tigris come from the same source.
You probably also believe in the Sage's claim that lice are created from human sweat and mice are created from mold.
So let me tell you something you don't know: when you don't think then even those electrical pulses in the brain don't do anything useful. You call me a robot but you're not even a robot because blind faith has short circuited your mind.
Hello Michael,
1. I didn't understand how you didn't go in right at the beginning to respond. This is your bread and butter, articles like this
2. A believing person has no feelings of inferiority but feelings of superiority. He is connected to the Creator of the world and is therefore more supreme. The feelings of inferiority are only with you.
3. The Torah was not written according to folk tales, but preceded the creation of the world.
4. The Torah is the constant, it is the axiom, while science is the variable, subject to passing fashion and the dictates of time.
5. How does the enlightened study of the celebrated oyster researcher relate to other researchers who proved and even found Noah's Ark, see:http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=cxQRWe9k8D0
6. From your article it appears that a person without a soul is nothing more than a cluster of electrical pulses subject to hormonal changes and electron storms in his brain, why should we treat any robot?
7. When will you wake up to a simple belief that there is a Creator? There is a guiding hand for everything, there is a leader for the world who is not subject to any estimation in the depths of the laboratories.
8. Don't make fun of your piece about the rabbit.
Hello Michael!
I didn't understand how your name didn't get smeared from the beginning of the comments, it's your "bread" these articles of heresy.
1. The Torah does not need your absurd evidence.
2. The Torah preceded the world, and was not rewritten. The Torah is the constant, the axiom, and science is the variable according to the dictates of fashion and the dictates of the hour.
3. Noah's flood was and was, geology cannot disprove the science of history with some stupid theory.
4. How do you get along with another study by geologists and archaeologists who found Noah's ark with a dating of about 6000 years, and the dimensions perfectly match what is said in the Torah?
See: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=cxQRWe9k8D0
5. Oh Michael, when will you wake up? There is a guiding hand from above for everything! A little faith won't hurt. Come on, wake up.
6. Replace the fuse Michael, do you have a short/unfocused electric pulse? In your previous article you concluded that there is no soul, so why should we treat any researcher more than a moving electron cluster robot with weaknesses caused by electrical levels...
7. Don't give me your stupid argument about a rabbit that doesn't raise gera as proof of denying the truth of the Torah.
It is interesting how the feelings of inferiority of the believers relate any attempt to confirm stories related to the Bible to the desire to refute them.
All the research about the flood is aimed at finding some kind of justification - even the weakest - for that delusional story that appears in the Bible according to which the whole world was flooded and an ark was built that was used to save all kinds of animals.
This story obviously never happened, but in order not to be seen as completely disconnected from reality - the scientists are looking for evidence of a "kind of flood" that did happen.
what happens then It turns out that there are believers who also see this as harassment!
By the way, it is not clear to me how the findings of this study are reconciled with the findings of the study indicated in the first link in the article, the conclusion of which implies that a structure was found at a depth of 100 meters (it is only implied because it is not clear from the text whether the robot that dived to a depth of 100 meters found the structure halfway or at the end)
Commentator 12, have you ever played the game "Broken Phone"? Think what happens to a story that has been passed down for thousands of years by word of mouth, from father to son, word of mouth, there is no longer any connection between the original story and the story that was finally created.
And this is without talking at all about the possibility that the original story is the product of the wild imagination of some religious priest who used this story to capture the tribe and impose various laws on it that supposedly came from the mouth of some omnipotent entity that watches over them from above....
To commenter #11 - precisely then the story could have been preserved, better than nowadays. Imagine a tribe of people who, when it gets dark, can't listen to the radio, can't watch TV, but can only huddle together around a fire and hear stories of events that happened in the past and pass this way for many generations. Over the years, the story takes on a volume, and an aura that was not there in the original, and our task today is to try and understand the original event from the stories.
There are well-known examples of certain tribes in which there were people whose job it was to memorize fixed chapters of poetry and these people remembered thousands (!) of poetry lines, which passed from generation to generation almost unchanged.
refuted. How in times of illiteracy can a story of thousands of years unfold. Not likely at all.
I know I know!
Blah blah blah, religion.
Blah blah blah, science.
Wow!
What happens to a white oyster when you throw it into the Black Sea? :)
in her
Glad to see that you are debating Jewish issues as well,
It is very interesting that everything written in your Bible is discovered and found sooner or later either by archeological excavations or by other means in science.
It is known that there will always be the company that will say it was, but not in the way it is written, etc. (as is usually found on this site), if the truth that appears in your book is true in this detail, then in the other details it is the same truth. And in order to know the full story in all its details, you can delve into the greats of Israel who dealt with it (refer to my books where part of the matter is explained and it will also explain the matter of the mammoths in Russia, the division of the continents, the Bermuda Triangle, the dust in the earth's soil, etc.)
Science says parts of true things and one big salad
As someone who happens on the site quite regularly, I much more enjoy scientific things in the field of technology' etc.
And that you write about things that really don't belong to you is so pointless and also takes away the taste of everything and it's a shame
Dear Daphne!
Where is the line between science and stupidity? Between educated and showing educated = stupid?
I actually really like science and am very connected to many fields, but not every dumb gig deserves to be included under the title science even if the writer is an academic of one kind or another.
The research itself on the Black Sea is fascinating, but from here to turning everything into a swindle to contradict historical facts anchored in the Torah of Israel as well as many other nations, the road is very long.
Does it make sense to you that because of 2 oysters that remained stuck, the entire history will be erased?
What is the diameter of the borehole at a depth of 46 m in an aquatic environment?
How many general findings did they make?
How many oysters did they base their claim on and thus they want to erase the history of many nations?
The excavation site is only a hypothesis that the mouth of the central river has indeed remained in the same place for 6000 years?
Will Hela call science?
According to what did they determine that if the oyster is double it is a sign that it stayed in the same place where it died?
to the previous commenter,
This is a science website that reviews the news in the scientific world. Don't like don't read, you have a large selection of news sites to suit your world views.
It's actually amazing that there are people who wake up every morning and think what kind of heretical article I'm going to publish today. And in what other way can the Jewish tradition be tattooed.
Hmmm.. Yes, Jesus certainly was, and the Holy Trinity certainly and certainly, also Muhammad who ascended in the heavenly storm must have been.
The Holy Trinity must have been by cloning or artificial insemination...
Where are all the smart scientists on these issues?
Oh, everyone is busy writing clever articles to deny Judaism (of course with friction in the Paddat)
When will you start promoting the world? Foreign work is already over, this is it, you are the last remnants, when will you start practicing enlightened science?
It's amazing that there are delusional people in the world who go around the world looking for the lost "Noah's Ark", they really expect a wooden box to survive in the rain, sun, heat and cold for 2,000 years and wait for them safe somewhere....
Someone tell them that wood usually rots and crumbles over time, maybe they don't know.
Now that makes sense. If the level only rose by 10 meters, the drift was not so strong, and Noah could indeed put a couple of every animal on the face of the universe in the ark. It's not a miracle at all.
The miracle is that of all the animals, there is not one that is not fertile.
Fortunately, there was no need to store the marine animals and amphibians.
Why, why just get dirty, "Noah's flood was not that strong".
Noah would turn over in his grave if he heard that.