The fasts and fasting associated with the destruction of the house presented the Romans to everyone as public enemies and perhaps even motivated trends of anti-Roman, somewhat messianic tendencies, which characterized the Jewish rebellion both during the Great Revolt, both in the Diaspora rebellion during the time of Emperor Trianus and in the rebellion of Ben Khosva. Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi therefore sought to abolish the fasts and penances of the 17th of Tammuz and the 9th of Av, perhaps less because of a sense of redemption than because of the fear of being shaken into a rebellious, messianic vortex saturated with apocalypticism

What do we know about Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi? who was the son of Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel, who had close ties with the Roman government and even with the Imperial House, who compiled the Mishnah, which was known for its great wealth, which brought the Jewish community in the Land of Israel to economic achievements and more. Some of us know that behind him are important halachic rulings such as the Sikrikon law in relation to land assets, partnership laws and crimes between Jews and foreigners, and in general that this president was a great reformer as someone who sought to create a bridge between the halachic law and the changing reality. However, and let's be honest, how many of us are aware that this president sought to uproot two fasts and fasts - those of the 9th chapter and the 17th chapter of the Tammuz? And that is why we will call his course a real earthquake and that is what this article will discuss.
Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi was the son of President Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel, who was as strict as he was on many subjects, probably as a result of his being as a boy in the camp of the rebel ben Khosva in Beitar, including the fasting and fasting of Tisha B'Av, and thus we open the subject of our discussion.
Well, the same Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel, the president of the Sanhedrin, several years after the rebellion of ben Kusaba, from 150 AD and onward similarly, expressly stated as follows: "All the food and drink in T. Bav, as if eating and drinking on Yom Kippur" (Talmud Babylon, Ta'anit to p. b). The XNUMXth of Av, as we know, was a day of fasting and fasting that symbolized the destruction of the two temples - the first and the second in terms of a dramatic and tragic symbol like no other, which explains the statement of Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel, who was under the indoctrination of the rebel Ben Kusaba in Beitar, and there he probably absorbed fanatical insights and even Messianic.
The above statement about the relationship between T'av Av and Yom Kippur was not phrased in such a similar way against the background of a certain emptiness. It appears that statements were made and perhaps even attempts were made to touch on the importance of fasting T'av Av and which is why the above mentioned president came out with his dramatic and decisive announcement , considering the fencing of the foxes that terrorize the vineyards.
And in our case we will ask and say: Did the article - "the act of fathers mark the whites", or the other article - "fathers ate unripe and the children's teeth will be priestly" fulfilled in the son of this president? Absolutely not! And in fact the opposite is true. The son of Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel, aka Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi, the subject of our article, who was a great reformer, dared to "betray" the tradition of Beit Abba when he asked to try and cancel the fast of the 17th of Tammuz and the fast of the 9th of Av, in view of an unprecedented earthquake. The main point of the discussed article.
And surely the basic question will arise in this regard - why and why? And this will find its answer and clarification immediately later.
Well, when we open the Babylonian Talmud in tractate Megillah we read as follows: "Rabbi Elazar said, (on behalf of): Rabbi Hanina said...Rabbi (Yehuda the President) planted a sapling on Purim and bathed in the water (spring) of (the city of) Tzipuri on the seventeenth of Tammuz, and asked to be uprooted ( To cancel the fast) Tisha Bav. They did not (acquiesce) to him (to his request, to his ruling). And to soften what was said) Rabbi Abba bar Zebda (and argued that) Rabbi, this was not the case, but it was Tisha B'Av which began to be on Shabbat, he (the above event took place) and we postponed it (the fast in question) after Shabbat, and Rabbi (Yehuda the President) said: Because And (fasting) is rejected, will be rejected (become a practice at all), and the sages (members of the Sanhedrin) did not admit (agree to it)" (Talmud Babylon, Megillah 5 p. a-p. b).
In the Jerusalem Talmud, this parasha was worded a little differently: "Rabbi came to Bar Zebda in the name of Rabbi Hanina (claimed that) Rabbi (Yehuda the President) asked to break (fast) Tisha B'av and they (the sages of the Sanhedrin) did not allow him. Rabbi Lazar said to him (even though he came to comfort you, Perhaps because of the honor of the president): I was with you and you didn't say the most (you didn't say that), but Rabbi asked to remove Tisha B'av, which began to be on Shabbat, and they didn't let him (my sages) Sanhedrin) said: Because it will be postponed. They said to him: It will be postponed until tomorrow" (Tanyot Talmud, Chapter 4, p. 3).
Before us is an unprecedented, revolutionary attempt, perhaps equivalent to a real earthquake, to cancel the fast of Tisha B'Av, which was so sacred, practiced and deeply rooted in the ancient Jewish culture. This is a sophisticated exercise by President Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi to cancel the aforementioned fast in a very "bastard" way: he chose to bathe in the spring of Tzipori on the seventeenth of Tammuz, and not just a private bath but in front of the public and sages. So what is the "importance" of bathing On this particular day? Well, don't make the "wet" move easy in our eyes, because this day is considered a well-known and famous fast day - the day when the Roman legion soldiers entered in the year 70 To S. through the split walls of Jerusalem, in the heart of the great rebellion and the process of its suppression, which symbolized more than anything the destruction of the Second Temple.
And this will be evidenced by the Tanit Sunnah and its interpretations in the Talmud and Midrashim. And so the "treacherous" behavior of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi will be understood, as if of course, as seeking to uproot a heavy foundation stone in the mythological wall of the People of Israel.
Well, the fact that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi bathed on that day, on the seventeenth of the Tammuz, in a spring belonging to the birds of the city, which was considered one of the two capitals of the Galilee (next to Tiberias), but was a foreign city to all intents and purposes and had a Hellenistic-Roman culture, was thereby a statement regarding the relationship between Jews and foreigners, between Jews and Hellenistic and Roman communities. And not this one, but also this one is found in the birds of a Roman temple and a Greco-Roman theater, and the city in general was crowned after the suppression of Ben Kusba's rebellion as a central polis city and its name was changed to Dio-Caesarea, to teach about Roman-cultural indoctrination, when within the above name is embodied the name of Zeus, head The Olympic Gods in Greece was thus, in the presidential visit, a statement whose main purpose was the necessary normalization of the relationship between the Roman government and The Jews, and as we will see later, this was because of saying the connection to what came to his mind - the abolition of fasts and fasting.
Moreover, the city was known for its elaborate and complex water system, all of which was the work of Roman construction, and this certainly explains the issue of the president's bathing in the "bird's carriage". And also, the president's close ties with the authorities of the Roman Empire and its leaders are well known, such as the quasi-mysterious figure, who appears in the literature of sages, named "Antoninus", whose identification may include at least three emperors: Septimius Severus, Caracalla and Alexander Severus." And hence, it is not for nothing that the president finds an "opportunity" to bathe "precisely" in a "fowl carriage" on a fast day involving the breaching of the walls of the city of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE, as if he seemingly ignores the date and kicks its historical significance so dramatic, so grave. And this is to create the appropriate background for canceling the fast from one and the fast from the other.
And in order to explain the ear and the eye, we will quote here the explicit text in connection with those dates taken from the Mishnah, and the text reads like this: "Five things happened to our ancestors on the seventeenth of Tammuz and five on the ninth of Av. On the seventeenth of Tammuz the Tablets (Tablets of the Covenant by Moses) were broken, and the eternal void ( The perpetual sacrifice that was offered every day in the temple was invalid due to the Roman siege and the destruction that followed), and the city of Jerusalem was destroyed (the invasion Roman to the city) and Apostamus burned the Torah (an act whose details are unknown to us and perhaps in connection with the decrees of Antiochus or Hadrian)) and set up an image (idol) in the temple (in the temple). Nebuchadnezzar) and in the second (the destruction of the Second Temple during the suppression of the rebellion), and she was captured in Bitar (the stronghold of the rebel Ben Kusba in 135 CE) and the city was plowed (as the Roman symbolic custom of plowing the perimeter with a pair of cattle to symbolize total and eternal destruction). The association of so many dramatic events with the two above-mentioned dates indicates the depth of the chronological pain from this and the earthquake that was expected from this in connection with the reformatory course of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi. And he is "in his time"...
And perhaps, the wording of the text in the Jerusalem Talmud: "... said (Rabbi): Since it was rejected (on the 9th of Av), it will be rejected!" Some kind of "nasty" hint of postponement=displacement and annulment sticks out, when those opposing Sanhedrin members were indeed afraid of a halachic drafting exercise, and immediately stated: "It will be postponed until tomorrow!"
Let us add another element to the above-mentioned historical fabric. Zipori was, no less and no more, one of the most important centers in the Sanhedrin's travels, in its sometimes forced wanderings, as the Sanhedrin wording in the sources meant - "postcards". It was the seat of the president and the meeting place of the Sanhedrin And why exactly in Zipori and before that in Osha and then in Beit Shaarim were these places that allowed the authorities The Romans to supervise the Jewish leadership activity, not specifically and in a physical way, but also indirectly and sometimes that was enough. There, in Tisprii, Roman forces operated in permanent army camps, apparently, this does not go well with a system The friendship was so deep and strained between the president and the Roman leadership. Well, the ties were excellent, but Rome as Rome knew how to distinguish between the sides The emotional to the rational, to the pragmatic, as she practiced in many places throughout her empire, considering the game between autonomy and criticism and surveillance.
So we are left with two questions on the agenda, two perplexities wrapped in each other's arms: First, why did the president choose to make the judicial move, which was considered something like an actual earthquake, precisely in the highly charged Biz Bat Tamuz, as mentioned above? Second, did she hide Behind this move is a more significant, deeper, more revolutionary intention?
First of all, it becomes clear from reading the text that the idea of uprooting the 17th fast in Tammuz was a kind of "trial balloon" for a much more significant move. Moreover, President Rabbi Yehuda, unlike the presidents before him, was opinionated and stubborn, standing firmly behind his intentions and plans. He took advantage of his character leadership, the recognition he received from the public and especially the close ties that developed between him and the top Roman government, in order to present to the public the His intentions and even in terms of checking borders, and let's not forget that the event was in Tzipori, in terms of the seat of the Sanhedrin from this and a Hellenistic-Roman cultural center and a geographical military cover from that.
Moreover, the idea timed on the 17th of Tammuz (as mentioned, the day of the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem by the Romans) was not carried out on another day and in another context, it was said during a theoretical and pre-halachic discussion in the Sanhedrin, but on the very same day, in the examination for the Korat of "stabbing a finger in the eye" of Lent the expected sanctification on that very day. It is called the water reservoir in Greek - in "Birds' carriage" and more in Phrasia on the other hand.
Secondly, the above can be seen as a kind of cheeky experimental balloon on the one hand, or a testing of limits with a pragmatic taste, that is - to test what the public's reaction will be to this and in particular - the reaction of the members of the Sanhedrin to this. "And (Rabbi Yehuda the President) asked to cancel (fasting and fasting) Tisha B'Av" considering the day that marks the destruction of the Second Temple, the Second Temple. And hence the chronological connection between the first and current bewilderment and certainly given the mythological emotional context - the double destruction of Jerusalem, which symbolized a deep breaking point in the hearts of the Jewish public. And more than that - the Jewish public might have connected the uprooting of the fasts with a dangerous collaboration between the presidency and the Roman authorities.
For the matter discussed in general, a teacher and rabbi, Prof. Aharon Oppenheimer, was required at the time in 2007 in the masterpiece series "Great Spirits and Creation in the Jewish People" edited by Prof. Aviad Ravitzky. And so Prof. Oppenheimer wrote, among other things - "Rabbi Yehuda the President believed that due to the peace, well-being and autonomy given to the people in Israel in general and the institutions of Jewish leadership in particular under the rule of the Sewar (emperors), there is no longer any point in observing the Lent of the Holocaust. Even though the Temple was not built and even though the people do not have complete independence A clear expression of his political view, as well as his view of his days as the beginning of redemption and his desire to instill This feeling for the people of Israel can be seen in his attempt to cancel the fasts of the XNUMXth of Tammuz and Tisha B'av, which are days of mourning for the destruction of the house.
Well, if we summarize Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi's motives for canceling fasting and fasting on the seventeenth of Tammuz and the ninth in Ab Eliba according to Prof. Oppenheimer, then it is as follows: circumstances of peace, well-being and autonomy under the rule of the Suvirites and a sense of the beginning of redemption, when fasting and fasts detract from this feeling.
At this juncture, may I add a few more reasons for the aforementioned revolutionary move of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi, and most of them revolve around the fear of the outbreak of an anti-Roman rebellion, and this fear was not far from reality when during the reign of the condemned president, two central figures in Roman history faced each other - the reigning emperor and the claimant For the imperial crown, that is, the emperor Septimius Severus and the claimant to the crown, the rebel, Pascanius Niger Among them, and partly even in Provincia Palaestina, Nietzsche between the years 193 and 194 CE, when the Jews sided with Septimius Severus, led by Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi, and perhaps in this context the figure of "Antoninus" can be identified in the literature of the Sages as the aforementioned emperor. Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi was concerned From an anti-Roman rebellious awakening in the Land of Israel, when after the destruction of the Second Temple, the rebellion of the Jewish Diaspora in Rome and the rebellion of Ben Kusva could certainly be found beyond the hints about such and other tendencies to renew the Jewish rebellious movement against Rome.
President Rabbi Yehuda came out against this atmosphere on quite a few occasions, when the fear was of a severe and painful Roman blow against the Jewish public, in a similar manner to the one that fell upon the head of the Jewish public after the revolt of Ben Kusba (135 CE) and this after the various political, economic and local reconstruction processes, and especially Ones that influenced the texture of positive relations with the Roman government.
Moreover, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi certainly had something to lose if and when the anti-Roman rebellions materialized. His close personal ties with the Roman leadership, his unprecedented political status, his financial wealth, including huge estates that he received on rent and lease from the Romans... all of these were supposed to come to nothing as a result of the awakening of Jewish rebellion and more in the problematic area between Egypt, Syria and Babylon from the point of view of the Romans, which could have landed on The Jewish communities in the Land of Israel suffered an extremely fatal blow, and therefore Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi made the greatest efforts to forge ties with the Romans and to calm the Jewish public, and at least the fanatical-Messianic factions that ran and stirred within it.
The questioner will rightly ask: What is the difference between the attempt to cancel the fasts and penances of the 17th of Tammuz and the 9th of Av and the above?
Well, first of all, fasts and fasting that accompanied the destruction of the house presented the Romans to everyone as public enemies and perhaps even motivated trends of anti-Roman, somewhat messianic tendencies, which characterized the Jewish rebellion both during the Great Revolt, both in the Diaspora Revolt during the days of Emperor Trianus, and in the Ben Kusaba Rebellion. Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi therefore sought to abolish the fasts and fasts of the 17th of Tammuz and the 9th of Av, perhaps less because of a sense of redemption (as this matter will be mentioned immediately later), but more specifically from the fear of being shaken into a rebellious, messianic vortex saturated with apocalypticism.
Second, perhaps a pragmatic, productive thought passed through the president's mind, and its concern was the fear of whining and a fatalistic investor who would project on the well-being and recovery of the Jewish economy during his time.
Thirdly, as mentioned, the fear of financial-personal damage to the assets of the presidency that will be caused by fasts and hunger strikes that will blacken the policy of the Roman authorities and their conduct in general. And it is not for nothing that the Babylonian Talmud emphasizes the relationship of the president with the Roman government, which went beyond just relationships between the governed and the ruler: "And God said to her: 'Two Gentiles (giants and peoples) are in your belly' (Genesis 23:XNUMX). Do not call Gentiles, But they are proud. Rabbi Yehuda said: These are Antoninus and Rabbi, who did not leave out radishes or radishes or zucchini In the days of the rains" (Berachot Nez p. XNUMX). That is, extreme wealth and productive quality. And in the treatise Baba Metzia (here p. XNUMX) the Talmud sails above and beyond when it compares the wealth of the manager of his stables to the reduced wealth of the Persian king in favor of Rabbi Yehuda the Hanasi.
Fourthly, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi was portrayed as a manipulator ruler ("Rabbi respects the rich" in the Talmud's language - Baruchot Mag p. 1), who promotes property owners even more than scholars and upgrades them to stand in the municipal authority (although there is nothing to talk about at that time about democracy, but there is a limit to that as well in a quasi-totalitarian regime that led and led his rule). Alongside these phenomena, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi was portrayed as assertive and sometimes strict and even aggressive. True or false, real or exaggerated and legendary, a midrashic testimony, for all the skepticism of reliability inherent in the Midrashic treasure, Baal Kohelat Raba (10th 3rd) testifies about the servants of the president who were decent beaters of those who refused to follow the rulings issued by the president and more of this kind. These testimonies along with others that tell about the president's foreign bodyguards, as was customary in contemporary Roman culture, provide some kind of drive to bring up the issue of abolishing fasts and fasting, as if the president said to himself and those around him -
"I and none more", or - "who will oppose me at all", in terms of an almighty supreme ruler. Moreover, the president demanded that the public pray for his safety during his lifetime, and this under the influence of clear Roman drivers.
Fifth - Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi is considered a great reformer when he relied on economic and social circumstances, somewhat imperial connections, personal tastes and more. And for example a few examples: the amendment of the Sikrikon Law to normalize life on the issue of property rights regarding land. That is, the cancellation of the status of the person who purchased encumbered land and was seized by the authorities and is considered a usurper; Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi's order to exempt Caesarin, Beit Govrin and Beit Shan from the obligation of tithes to make life easier for Jewish farmers or owners of agricultural property, who lived in mixed cities; the regulation of the oil permit of foreigners, which allows its purchase by Jews; Mutual friendship between Jews and foreigners, mainly in mixed cities, and even burial of foreigners by Jews and vice versa, and even conducting mutual obituaries, when the overall reasoning is "for peaceful purposes", we were striving for good neighborly relations. For similar reasons, Rabbi Yehuda the Hanasi canceled the beacons in connection with the mathematical-astronomical calculation of determining the number of days of the month.
In addition, the president's amendment to the halachic law was known in connection with the annulment of an excommunication imposed by the sages of the Sanhedrin, and we will also add the honorable status that the president gave to the Greek language alongside the Hebrew language, both in order to bring Jews and foreigners closer in the cities of the polis in Israel, and even to flatter and flatter the Roman authorities, whose language was more Greek (for reasons of arrogance) than Roman-Latin.
Sixth - following Prof. Oppenheimer's argument that the president saw his days as the beginning of redemption and wished to infect his contemporaries with this feeling, this assumption can be strengthened to a certain extent by the fact that the period of the president in question was considered the strongest of all its predecessors from various aspects and as, perhaps, a feeling that "full establishes a "poisoning cup" of destruction and poverty, and a kind of drive must be created in favor of resurrecting the body of the Jewish public, And this category was aimed at the President's attempt to inflate the two experimental balloons - one to cancel the 17th of Tammuz fast as a promo to uproot the 9th of Av fast, and the last one in favor of strengthening the feeling of Athalta Dagaulah.
Seventh - maybe-maybe it even crossed Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi's mind to cancel and uproot the heavy mourning customs of Yom Kippur, maybe, if and when he tried to uproot the fast and fasting of the 17th of Tammuz and the 9th of Av, he would have succeeded, and based on what, maybe , that the degree of opposition of the sages would be somewhat loose? He relied, so it seems, on the fact that the fast of T. Av was not from Daoriyata, that is, from the Bible, but From Darbanan, and therefore, and due to the strength of his presidency and in general his personality and prestige, lest he thought that Madraban's fast could be nullified by a "mountain remover" like him. He also relied, it seems, on disputes among the sages themselves as to whether the fasting time is on the 10th of Av or on the 10th of it. That is, the alleviating deliberation, in principle, about trying to dislodge the mourning custom for that problematic day from a chronological point of view.
Eighth - according to the tradition in the Tractate Ta'anit in the Babylonian Talmud, the 9th of Av was a decreed day concerning the calamities that have befallen the people of Israel since time immemorial, and even from the ancient days of the Bible, such as what was decreed on the desert generation that would not enter the Land of Israel because of the sin of the spies. And even regarding the destruction of the first house. And what was this date? You guessed it right - Yom T' Bav. Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi therefore asked to put an end to that disastrous period in consideration of entering into better days.
And don't make it easy for us. It is definitely about revolutionary regulations that have almost no equal during ancient Jewish history. And the success that President Nahal has had in this matter shows not only the rationality of the matter but the extent of his governmental power.
always succeeded? Probably not, and the next example will bring us very close to the subject of the attempt to cancel the fasts and fasting above. Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi requested, for such understandable, thoughtful and progressive reasons, to cancel the mitzvot of shmita, considering a considerable earthquake in the world of Judaism. Rabbi Yehuda the President took into account the fact of the large number of "Saviation refusers" especially after the destruction of the Second Temple, but this move was thwarted by a group of Sanhedrin sages, and the President decided to drop the issue and impose his will in the face of that opposition.
Well, equipped with the above examples and the president's ideas for displacing fasts and fasting, we will return to the discussion about the 17th day of Tammuz and the 9th of Av. The quote we made at the beginning of the article ended in a rather shameful fiasco. An opposition group raised a voice of opposition to the above-mentioned move of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi - in principle and even against the "experimental balloon" that he raised in Tsipri. The opposition was not so strong and sharp and maybe even moderate, and this is learned from the Talmudic expression - "and they did not thank him". One of the members of the Sanhedrin and as a defender of the president came out with an excuse along the lines of: 'Understand, the president meant something specific-chronological, i.e. the case in which Tisha B'av falls on this Shabbat, and therefore it (the fast and Lent) must be postponed, "simply" after the Sabbath. It will be rejected (at all)" (Talmud Babylon Megillah 5, p. 2). But the sages have theirs: "And the sages did not admit (did not agree)" (ibid.).
And so the issue was buried for him to this day.
We therefore reviewed the experimental process of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi to cancel the 17th fasts of Tammuz and 9th of Av, when he relied, as it seems, on a number of weighty claims. we.
And between us it is interesting and surprising how such a move received only a scant mention in the sources. It seems that the editors had a hand in the matter and for obvious reasons.
30 תגובות
Mordechai
It is very likely that in the transmission between generations, things change. That is why there were divided opinions throughout history.
There are indeed (at least) two acceptable ways to prevent this phenomenon: writing and singing. But even these are not 100% reliable, because the meaning of words changes along the timeline.
When I got to "Teeth of Boys" I stopped reading. Apparently the ignorant doctor needs teeth whitening.
I made two insights:
The first is religious. Assuming that there is a private providence in which the majority of the religious believe, then God desired, initiated and allowed the destruction of the two temples. I mean, it was his will. If so, doesn't it make more sense to mourn the actions of the people that led to the destruction rather than the destruction itself? Reason suggests yes. If so, it was the taunting of the Roman Gentiles, the disputes among the people and the corruption that manifested itself in not doing justice in court that caused the destruction. In other words, there is no immunity in the actual divine presence in the Temple, on the contrary. The message was supposed to go to the followers of the Third Temple, but the opposite is happening.
The second concerns the establishment of Judaism in the Oral Torah. The source of halachic authority stems from the belief that at Mount Sinai, Moses was given an oral Torah which he passed on to Joshua who passed it on to the elders who passed it on to the judges and so on until today. Under this basic assumption, it is not possible to explain the disputes between the scholars of Halacha according to which one opinion always prevailed over another as in this article, since there is only one truth that was given to Moses. There is no escaping the conclusion that all the laws reflect this different opinion that is relevant to its time and holds on to it. In this situation, we are not talking about the fragments of a living God, but the moral, religious and practical positions of this or that person at this or that time, and as such they are considered a recommendation and nothing more. This conclusion is completely opposite to the behavior of the religious Jews who inadvertently refer to the status of the laws.
Pompey was not Caesar. Was in the triumvirate with Caesar.
Miracles:
A somewhat rare thing happened in our districts as far as I'm concerned. We have come to a certain respect for each other's views.
I have to inevitably completely reject the opinion of the other side on the part of the religious who dismiss 5 million reformers in conversations (and I don't even though I'm Orthodox and I don't like touching the laws, the prayer arrangement. And on the other hand the secular claim that the religious are dark, stupid and everything is wrong, there is no evidence for anything. So thank you for the agreement To respect each other's opinion, if we were to meet hypothetically, you would see that the common denominator is much greater than the difference In the big bang theory, maybe in the theory of evolution in the separation of religion and state, and so do I. You maybe support LGBT rights - non-discrimination and more. On the other hand, I connect with sources and others less so. A. To contradict things, b. Because it interests them more than the kitsch on other sites and they don't admit it.
I have already explained that our nation excels at factionalism, and the example that sits most strongly in my mind is the extreme supporters of the two sons of Alexander Yanai who handed over a strong Hasmonean Jewish military kingdom that ruled parts of Moab, Ammon to Pompey Caesar and this split it up. In the end there was a great rebellion in which, in terms of the year 60 AD approximately, 500000 Jews were killed according to the Talmud and Yosef ben Matityahu, 1,500,000 people were enslaved and exiled, and 40,000 settlements were destroyed.
I am afraid that the lack of agreement, and this is not towards you at all, but towards us as a people, to respect each other's sectors, will lead to social disintegration, in particular if it is fueled by politics. Also in the First Temple - there was King Zedekiah (as I said before there is extra-biblical evidence for the existence of the prophet Jeremiah and I refer to the historical description in the book as verified) which was previously known as Mattaniah (the name was changed by Nebuchadnezzar) who followed the Egyptian faction and did not agree to pay taxes bend down After a few decades, Cyrus arrived and he was favorable to the Jews. And the price was exile in Babylon from which we never recovered in the full sense. Fact: There is Talmud in Babylon.
In order to understand the written Torah and the oral Torah, it is appropriate to consult the Torah keepers. The Torahs were written by religious people for religious people, therefore religious people are the ones who understand what the elders of the Torah meant.
So, as a religious person, I give you a simple interpretation - the likelihood that a religious person will agree to abolish T. Bav, is very small. The destruction of the temple is a difficult event, which requires mourning, as it is written in the Torah in the book of Exodus Parshath that she will carry, after the sin of the calf - "and the people will mourn greatly (for the Shekinah's disposition)".
There are a lot of halakhots concerning the mention of the Holocaust, and it is unlikely that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi wanted to uproot all of them, and especially not the halakhots he himself taught.
Your words cannot be denied, but this is not the way of thinking of the Torah keepers. Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi thought that there is no such thing as a "postponed fast", but when the fast falls on Shabbat, they will not fast this year, and will be content with fasting next year. This thing is also affected by the issue of no Yom Arava falling on Shabbat.
And as I wrote at the beginning - the Torah greats studied Tosheba carefully, and in order to understand their words you need to consult with those who study Gemara carefully.
Yosef
"There is an incomplete but solid historical compatibility between secular history and the Torah in the period after the division of the kingdoms."
right. Only, don't call it "secular history". Call it "archaeological evidence".
Archeology begins to support the biblical stories, King David, and the history of the kingdoms after the division.
There is no archaeological support for Solomon, there is disputed archaeological support for the conquest of the land by Joshua, there are no signs of conquest and destruction.
There is a reference to some of the prophets of Israel after the division of the kingdom.
There is an incomplete but solid historical compatibility between secular history and the Torah in the period after the division of the kingdoms.
Yosef
You wrote "We are 0.26% of the world's population if we take reformers and conservatives and LGBT people."
Shabin - Is LGBT a religious movement for you?
And let me understand something else - I am not reform, not conservative, and not LGBT. Explain to me, please, why I am not Jewish according to your approach?
Yosef
There is no evidence that justifies the belief that two and a half million Israelites left ancient Egypt in an instant. This is what is written in the Torah - and this is not what happened.
Certainly the Jewish people have a history and there is no doubt that we are descendants of an ancient people living in Israel. Moreover, it is very likely that many of the stories in the Bible have a historical basis. This is how it is in the mythology of many peoples.
But to say "the rooster itself is very authentic" is really bullshit.
Jews have many, many Nobel Prizes. Most of them are Ashkenazim ….. do you really want to get into this?
Maybe it's still worth explaining a little (if you had a "scientific approach" you could read about it yourself).
Two reasons for the phenomenon are often mentioned: genetics (your attitude), and education to love books (studies, knowledge, and so on).
But - the Jews (Ashkenazim) excel in science, only in the twentieth century. In the nineteenth century, our situation in science (with the exception of medicine) was below average (read the articles of the Australian Joseph Jacobs).
The real reason is probably the Jewish (Ashkenazi) immigration to the USA, Russian cities and also to Israel. It is a well-known phenomenon that subsequent generations of immigrants excel in many fields (one of the things that the stupid president of the USA denies).
Now - please pay attention to the percentage of Jews who have won the Nobel Prize over the years.
Joseph, I personally thought that the reason for the large number of Jewish awards was genetic. There's no reason why that shouldn't be true, in my opinion. But I did the opposite of you - I looked for information that contradicted what I believed in, and "unfortunately", I found this information.
You are looking for chips of proof for what you believe in - and this is the opposite of a scientific approach.
Beyond that, except for conversations at cocktail parties, I see no reason to be proud of the achievements of others. Just like I don't hate any German or Arab because of the actions of those nations.
We are 0.26% of the world's population if we include reformers and conservatives and LGBT people.
Miracles
As much as you slandered me, you are no different from those who slandered Dr. Sorek. I am not offended.
None of what I mentioned is my theory. In particular the archaeological findings. Do a little google search after each line listed.
You belong to an ancient people, which is responsible for 22% of the Nobel Prizes and is barely 0.1% of the world's population. If you don't have statistical significance, that's your right. If you choose to deny the roots, in the historical sense detached from faith, your right. If we were to seek experimental approval for a drug and we would receive success in 22% of the cases in a 0.1% mixture, the FDA would approve it. In the building of the United Nations it is written "And beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks, Gentile shall not lift sword against Gentile, neither shall they learn war any more" - where do you think this comes from? The same desire to culturally destroy the other that we saw in religious people, we see in secular people now.
I publish articles in the scientific press on engineering and mathematics, and read a lot of history and non-fiction books. I don't think I'm talking nonsense. This is said modestly even if it may be interpreted differently. In my opinion, one should not show off the ability to research, but be grateful for the ability to learn new things.
Miracles of course without defaming:
1. The idea that the members are transgressors, that is, one social layer of what became the Hebrew people, is not mine.
Start by browsing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru
2. Yosef ben-Matityahu proposed the Hyksos to be distinguished
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%A1
3. The idea of copying the monotheistic faith from Egypt to Canaan and merging it with the god Regel, El Mkhuzi - a pilgrimage, is not delusional.
And regarding the transfer or the Hyksos. We will quote from my memoirs a number of names: Let us be wise for him lest he multiply and lest he break out...and it would happen that a war would arise and he would also be added to our enemies,...every newborn son would be thrown away fit for a military people who ruled Egypt and the local Egyptians feared him and reduced him to the rank of builders. Suitable for building the cities of Pithom and Ramses.
There is no definite proof here and there will never be that 4000 years is an archaeological eraser with such a resolution.
Regarding the house of David: the king of Moab and the king of Aram boast of an achievement against the house of David in Moab and Aram - in tombstones that were also found in the Golan Heights when the mother base of the house of David is Jerusalem, this is not a junior ruler: David. Regarding Jeremiah, there is extra-biblical proof. Baruch Ben-Naria, his brother from the family of the most senior officials of the monarchy. A seal of the brother was found. Baruch writes the Book of Prophecies Baruch - an external book in Judaism, and an internal book in the New Testament if I remember correctly. The same blessed one is according to tradition and according to his own testimony the main disciple of Jeremiah (they went together to Yishuv Bhorim) and the writer of the book of Jeremiah. If Baruch exists then Jeremiah probably exists. This is probably the channel for King Zedekiah who in 27 also listened to Jeremiah.
Regarding Jesus, who is a Pharisee rabbi in Judaism and probably did not think of founding a new religion, although he introduced Buddhist ideas, which today are accepted by the followers of Breslav. The people around him there is evidence other than the New Testament. There is the Talmud, but Nicodemus - a member of the Sanhedrin, the high priest Cephas - the coffin His is in the Israel Museum, the celebrated Rabbi Gamaliel in the New Testament is a well-known rabbi in the Gemara, if all these were alive, it is likely that Jesus was Hai. I'm not a Christian, but I don't have a problem with Christians.
This is the nature of extra-biblical evidence. King Ahab has archaeological evidence at Tel Megiddo in the horse stables. Jeroboam ben Nebat, king of Israel, has evidence in Tel Megiddo. and so on and so on.
Yosef
You yourself are mixing religious belief and a scientific approach. I will mention only 3 points.
1. You write that 4000 years have erased evidence. It could cover a visit from aliens, the city of Atlantis, Mount Olympus - or any other story for which there is no evidence. The ancient Egyptians recorded every grain of wheat, so don't you find it strange that there is no evidence of the departure of 40% of the population? There is no trace of the 2.5 million people who lived in Sinai for 40 years?
2. The meaning of the word "Biro" is dirty. This group existed for about 600 years. The correct name is generally "Apiro", and you have to be very creative to think that it has anything to do with the word "Hebrew".
3. "The Bible itself is very authentic." Seriously??? Does the creation story seem real to you? The flood? The rest of the horror stories?
Please - don't mix science with religious belief. You will always lose.
I come from the traditionalist camp, but when it comes to science, the separation of religion from the state, evolution, the big bang - I'm like a complete secularist.
On the subject of belief in the Creator, I believe, but separate it from scientific investigation.
If you are looking for non-biblical scientific evidence for the Exodus from Egypt, at the level of reasonable hypotheses, because 4000 years have erased evidence, I will help a little since I see that they have gotten a little confused:
+ He slept with his friend who ruled Egypt for 200 years, a military people - who was expelled from Egypt and reduced to the level of construction workers.
Habiru was written as Abiru and from there Hebrew. The Hebrews were a military people, and Moshe acts as a military leader. It wasn't suddenly that they left Egypt and formed an army of 400,000 people. It's a trailing tradition. For them construction workers, who are not necessarily slaves, is an intolerable demotion.
+ There is a minister of treasure from the time of the pharaoh several generations before Ramses II who is called by a name similar to Joseph.
+ The Tanach itself is very authentic, that it is hard to believe that it is an invention. Personal experiences of dozens of people are told there not as mythology but as documentation. Although for the purpose of moral advice, but with local historical references.
+ Pharaoh Akhenaten (?) led Egypt to believe in one god, for the first time in human history, the god Amon, the sun god.
The revolution he brought about caused a fierce rebellion against the royal house in Egypt. His wife Nefertiti brought back polytheism.
The believers in one God were persecuted. Their son is Tut-anach Amon who was apparently killed violently.
It is possible that those who left Egypt are the Israelites who believed in the One God and could not stay in Egypt. Sigmund Freud himself, who was not a historian, I think wrote a book on the subject.
Regarding extra-biblical evidence for the House of David:
A. Misha's tombstone in which the king of Moab boasts I captured Ariel Duda and I mean Ariel of the Knights of the House of David. And a king does not boast of capturing a knight of a petty king.
B. The Tel-Dan tombstone in the Golan Heights - the king of Aram boasts that he has recognized the House of David, and the reference is to the Aramaic-Israeli threat to Athaliah, Queen of Judah, to kill the last twins of the House of David, thereby preventing an invasion of Little Judah. And this is what she does and is seen as betraying your daughter, but in practice without this act we would not exist.
In my opinion the truth lies in the middle. The house of David was not so small, and there was a cultural connection between the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Israel was strong, Judah was more religiously fanatical and won historically. Was there a united kingdom before that? Do not know. Is it related to the existence of a creator? Did the prophets of Israel betray their hearts? No. In no language, in any book, are there such decisive words as in Hebrew. And 4.5 billion people originally believe in the words of this book.
Not in my opinion.
Uncle
Did you bother to check your link???
Shafem writes "We have no extra-biblical sources about the slavery of the Israelites in Egypt and the occupation of the land"
Is there a different interpretation of words in your Hebrew than in the Hebrew of other speakers of the language? Maybe the meaning of the word "isn't" with you is the word "is" with us?
Otherwise, I can't understand what you are talking about…. A. "We don't have its source..." Oh, maybe "others" have it?
The rest of your link is a hodgepodge of nonsense that really has nothing to take seriously. But, if you want - you can choose one and see what is really written there.
Of your choice
Just for the sake of integrity, the link points to a site of converts and not a scientific site.
In honor of commenter Yosef, you should read this article on the Razio website about evidence of the exodus from Egypt itself https://rationalbelief.org.il/%D7%98-%D7%A2%D7%93%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-2/
Yosef
Let's address what you said "Another person comes and says there was no exodus from Egypt. If I think otherwise I will fight for my opinion. But to keep room for other opinions yes.".
The person who says that there was no exodus from Egypt is based on historical evidence: it is not possible that 40% of the inhabitants of Egypt left and there is no record of this - in a people who counted every grain of wheat, there is no evidence of a large people who lived for a long time in the Sinai desert and so on.
Does anyone dispute the veracity of this evidence? If so - he must bring contradictory evidence. If not, there is no room for a different opinion.
Don't get me wrong - everyone is entitled to their own opinion! But, the Exodus is not a matter of opinion. If you think otherwise, then you are on a very slippery slope.
As individuals, we will not tolerate further destruction - let the price be clear to anyone who does not respect a different opinion. We passed on a legacy to the Gentiles - the two major religions made sure of that. Be the ultra-Orthodox - even in them they will bite - look at the value of the Holocaust: with systematic methods, and advanced technology.
As a nation: We give up all Reform and Conservative Judaism - they will simply give up on us. This is for coalition reasons.
We banish gays. excludes minorities. We are on the right track to get up in the morning in another 10-30 years and become a Muslim country.
After the destruction I meant
Even at work, the intolerance I see for different opinions is extreme. Talk about destroying everything that is different from you.
A man comes and says that near the eve of the Holocaust, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi tried to cancel Tisha B'Av, and the attempt failed.
Another person comes and says that the house of David was much smaller than the empire that was spoken of, and the mythology about the house of David was invented by Josiah. There was never one common kingdom before the two kingdoms.
Another person comes and says there was no exodus. If I think otherwise I will fight for my opinion. But keep room for additional opinions yes.
The news about the House of David forced me to look for extra-biblical evidence for the House of David
The news regarding disputes between Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi and other rabbis: There were. They forced a compromise on one of the presidents: no impeachment, yes sharing. Alexander Yanai also advised his wife Shlomzion to go with the Pharisees, but not to trust anyone and he was right. In a conflict between his sons Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, the extremists handed over a strong Hasmonean military state to Pompey's hands. The main thing is that it does not fall into the hands of their opponents. This stupidity characterizes us as a people like the other thread. As individuals we are a smart people.
I do want the rabbis to enlighten me in a human light, with ego wars. Ovadia Yosef Zatzuk'l was also a man with an ego and that man with an ego, he returned the Sephardic Halacha to a place worthy of the view of the Sephardi ultra-Orthodox. And Ben-Gurion had 4 lovers but when he had to decide on a state and a strong army he made up his mind and was quite isolated in his decision. And it's good that he made up his mind.
Multiple opinions must be allowed. You have something to say against - bring evidence. There is an almost open blog here. No need to blame.
Just bring counter-evidence and evidence.
Yosef
The phrase "scientific opinion" *is* an oxymoron.
Yosef
The phrase "scientific opinion" is an oxymoron.
Friends:
I am one of those who believe in the existence of God.
We will not die if we hear a different opinion about how a mythical person is human - the Gemara also had something to say about Rabbi Yehuda Nashiya. On the contrary, we will go back to the sources, look again at whether the doctor is right, and strengthen our position on the subject or change it.
It is known that this rabbi, on the one hand, sealed the Mishnah, fought against the dreams of messianism and the renewal of the Temple that fueled the Bar Kochba rebellion, having the authority to reach the Roman emperor and discuss with him. Buried in Beit Shaarim so that you can see his grave.
During the difficult period after the destruction, he continued the existence of the Yishuv, signing the Mishnah, and after that they continued signing the Talmud - as a side of the road for a people who lost their freedom. A Jewish settlement continued to exist in Israel until 600, but most of the people were exiles.
The series by Rabbi Dr. Binyamin Lau, who is on the one hand a rabbi, and on the other hand an academic, "Sages" volumes 1-5 illuminates this period as well, both from a historical perspective but also as a philosophical moral theory: from the beginning of the Sanhedrin and the chapters of Avot until after the signing of the Talmud and the Tanaim.
(That's why what happened in 1948 is no less than a miracle, and the renewal of the Hebrew language after 2000 years of not being a language of sand. And we will accidentally lose it in our stupidity as a people.)
On the other hand, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi, in my memory, fought against the students of Rabbi Meir, the miracle worker, and prevented them from entering his yeshiva "The students of Rabbi Meir should not enter here, because they are grumpy." There are different approaches in Judaism, and there is an ego in the story.
I don't feel threatened by Dr. Sorek, but - all Israel has the right to express an opinion, and sometimes the scientific opinion illuminates the issue in a new light.
Capricorn, don't confuse the doctor with facts, he has an agenda to promote.
The logical explanation talks about a postponement when the date comes out on Saturday. And there is an extensive literature on this.
How did you base a lot of words on the fact that this is another revolutionary program? Where are the sources from?
"A nation that does not know its past, its present is poor and its future is shrouded in fog"
With an anti-Jewish and Zionist attitude like yours, Israel would not rise up, convert to Christianity or Islam and kneel before the world just to not upset anyone. Because crouching and bowing your head really helped Jews in pogroms and especially in the Holocaust. Only a proud Jewish state will be able to protect and sustain the Jewish people
Jeremiah 28:XNUMX: "In those days they will no longer say, 'Fathers eat unripe, and two sons eat unripe'"
Tikhana - in K meaning not sharpness
Tachhana B-20 means that the teeth turned black
It's a nice idea to have them blacked out, but doesn't match the originals
Hope the rest of the article does correspond to the historical truth
Additionally,
The 17th of Tammuz is forbidden in eating and drinking, but allowed in bathing
So I didn't understand what the problem was with bathing in the spring on this day