The Exodus became a universal symbol of the struggle against slavery for freedom. Many groups appropriated it for themselves. What do we know about the historical reliability of the story? Is there evidence that the Exodus actually took place? Is historical truth even important?
Yair Hoffman, from a place for thought - in Shear 3/4/2000
The question of the authenticity of the traditions of the Holy Scriptures is one of the topics that the Western world in general, not necessarily the Jewish world, deals with a lot and not only in recent years. The question concerns cosmic traditions, such as the creation of the world, the creation of man, the flood, traditions about unusual natural phenomena (miracles) that have a historical context, such as the plagues of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, the fall of the walls of Jericho, "the sun at Gibeon Dom" and historical traditions, such as the fathers of the nation, conquests Joshua, David's victory over Goliath.
The decision regarding the cosmic traditions is a clear matter of faith. From a scientific point of view, they lack foundation, they have no evidence, and they are not consistent with the findings of science in all its branches - astronomy, geology, physics and biology. Only a fundamentalist religious faith that believes in the literal truth of the biblical text leads a person to accept the biblical version of the cosmic traditions. Those who seek to prove the truth of the traditions using scientific, or seemingly scientific tools, do so only to give a basis of faith to what is acceptable to them at least by virtue of their religious faith.
The matter of miracles is only slightly different. Here, too, we are dealing with phenomena
Supernatural, which only religious faith can accept as facts, but since there is no need to explain a permanent natural phenomenon but a one-time case, this allows those who seek 'scientific' proof to be forced into all kinds of speculations about the state of the sea, the earth and the star system in the one-time case upon which the tradition revolved . If we clean these phenomena from their narrative context and add them in principle to the cosmic traditions, they will remain within the scope of purely historical traditions.
These (historical) traditions do not clearly contradict any scientific truth, and precisely because of this the problem of their reliability is so difficult and causes disagreements. There is not and cannot be a real debate between the fundamentalist who assumes that man was created on the sixth day before God one thousand five hundred years ago and those who use tools. Not so is the relationship between the believer that Abraham was the father of Isaac, the grandfather of Jacob, whose twelve sons were the fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel, and the one who disbelieves in the historical reliability of this tradition. In the possession of this, the infidel, there can be ad hoc arguments, regarding plausibility, probability, the target of evidence or even contradictory evidence, but not scientific data that can disprove such a tradition by virtue of a proven principle theory (evolution, the big bang, etc.). Hence the intensity of the debate regarding the historical traditions.
The theoretical possibility that they are true is what exacerbates the debate between their supporters and their detractors. And if this is true for all biblical and non-biblical historical tradition (he said or he didn't say - Trumpeldor), the more so the debate intensifies when it comes to the exodus from Egypt.
((((The section telling about the meaning of the exodus from Egypt for different peoples at different times, mainly in the context of slavery and freedom)))) is omitted.
So why even look for the 'historical truth'? Why the efforts to find her out? I will offer three answers, each of which is sufficient on its own. First: the scientific curiosity. The simple desire to know the 'truth' or at least perfect the tools to get as close to it as possible. This is the curiosity with which there is no other practical purpose, which is the mother of all sciences. Second: if history can teach us something about our roots, about the legality or lack of legality in the history of the human race, and if a lesson can be drawn from what happened in the past, then it is only by revealing the truth in it. Third: If the historical tradition turns out to be a myth, then it has something to teach us about ourselves, about the way we create our collective memory and about the role of myths not only in the past but also in the present. In other words: the myth of history has its own, and its history is as important as any other historical study.
Later Hoffman suggests peeling the miracles from the story and staying with the skeleton of the tradition. "After being enslaved for hundreds of years in Egypt, the twelve tribes of Israel (along with 'Arab Rav') left Egypt on their way to the land of Canaan, which had already been promised to their ancestors. They numbered over "six hundred thousand three thousand five hundred and fifty." In Deuteronomy 46:3) "from the age of twenty years and above all military veterans" (ibid., verse XNUMX). After forty years of wandering in the Seni Desert and conquering large parts beyond the eastern Jordan (Deuteronomy XNUMX:XNUMX), they arrived at the eastern bank of the Jordan, in front of Jericho, where they camped until they entered the land on a military conquest campaign (Book of Joshua). To avoid further complication, I did not mention Moses: indeed, according to the stories of the Torah, he is the central figure in the entire exodus from Egypt, but the event itself can be examined without having to delve into the history of this wonderful and rare figure.
Hoffman proceeds from the assumption that the Exodus from Egypt, if there was one, took place in the 13th century BC during the time of Ramses II, King of Egypt. Does this tradition as presented here stand the historical test? This question, as much as it is a historical question, must be examined by examining the sources available to us and examining their reliability. In our interpretation, the relevant sources are the biblical story and extra-biblical evidence - mainly Egyptian, which are supposed to refer to such an important event.
Of the biblical sources, only the Torah has a detailed story about the exodus from Egypt (below we will refer to some other biblical sources as well). And here, the story in the Torah as the historical source is a difficult problem for three main reasons. 1. The Torah is a late source. There is no disagreement among biblical scholars that it was not connected near the Exodus. The early ones believe that the earliest written sources of the Torah are from the ninth century BC (and the late ones postpone it to the fifth or even the fourth century!) This means at least about 400 years after the estimated time of the Exodus from Egypt. Everyone will think to themselves, what can be the historical reliability of a tradition that unfolded for such a long time that it was written down? In addition. It is common in research to assume that even after the traditions were written down, they did not freeze, but continued to unfold orally while adapting, like any tradition, to the spirit of the times, to the needs of society, etc.
This development certainly left its traces also in the written texts, which were compiled into the Torah as it is before us today not before the time of Ezra, that is, the middle of the fifth century BCE. It is therefore difficult to see the Torah as a reliable and accurate historical source.
2. A second difficulty arises from the fact that the Torah itself has quite a few contradictions regarding the story of the exodus from Egypt, especially in connection with the wandering route. According to one tradition, when the Israelites arrived at Kadesh Barnea, (west of the border with Egypt today, a little north of the latitude of Mitzpe Ramon) they crossed the land of Canaan, fought the Canaanites at Arad, defeated them, crossed the Negev desert and reached the mountain (near Petra) on The border of the land of Edom (in the Wilderness 22:1-3) According to another tradition, the Israelites tried to enter the Negev of the Temple, but after being defeated by the Canaanites, they went south towards the Red Sea, present-day Eilat, and from there they turned northeast towards Edom (in the Wilderness 40:45-14 -21 and Deuteronomy 40 - 1; bXNUMX). Quite a few explanations have been given for the differences in these traditions, but these do not eliminate the contradictions and indicate the difficulty in assessing the stories of the Torah as a reliable historical source for the description of the Exodus.
3. The story in the Torah is inconsistent with logical reasoning. With six hundred thousand military veterans, at least 2.5 million men and women, children and the elderly should be named. This message is not only imaginary in relation to the population in the period we are talking about (the entire population of the Land of Israel at its peak in biblical times did not exceed, apparently, over a million and a quarter inhabitants); It is imaginary even today, since the Chinese desert cannot manage even a tenth of this number.
4. Another important fact must be added to this (partial) set of arguments. The story of the biblical exodus from Egypt is closely related to the story of the organized, uniform conquest of the land of Canaan by Joshua. And here, even in this story there are internal contradictions in the Bible itself, and it has no real help in the archaeological findings in the Land of Israel.
As mentioned, the archaeological findings also do not help to confirm the Exodus tradition. There is not even one Egyptian testimony about an event that was supposed to be so great and important in its history! The claim that it sounds like no kings boast of their failures is insufficient to explain the complete absence of any clues to such a severe crisis - a sudden and dramatic loss of a labor force of six hundred thousand men in Egypt.
There is indeed an example from the 13th century BC of a letter that is supposed to report on the escape of two (!) slaves from Egypt to the desert, and this indicates that there were indeed slaves in Egypt, and there were probably also escaping slaves. But the attempt to cling to a document like this to confirm the historicity of the Exodus is quite pathetic. Also, Egyptian evidence that permission was given to wanderers from Edom to enter Egypt during a famine (parallel to the story of my brother Joseph) and that Ramesses II did indeed build the city according to Ramesses (and he built dangerous cities to destroy Fatum and Ramesses" Exodus 11:XNUMX) do not prove anything but that the story of the Exodus from Egypt, as far as a different historical tradition, is not completely detached from the background to which it was adapted.
Later Hoffman details Egyptian stories that are similar in their motifs to some of the biblical stories (Potifer's wife, the miracles of Moses and Aaron) in the book of Proverbs there is a collection of parables (17 to 22) there is a collection of parables which is apparently a translation of the proverbs of the Egyptians, Psalm Ked in the book of Psalms and Acts Using the Egyptian hymn to Athene, the sun. All of these show that Egyptian culture was known in Israel for hundreds of years, and they do nothing to prove the historical truth of the Exodus tradition. Hoffmann's careful examination of the biblical sources shows that the sources before the schism (Blessing of Jacob, Shirat Deborah) show that the Exodus did not have a founding status, after the schism when the House of David was cultivated in Judah, the Exodus tradition was cultivated in the north as a founding tradition. The Kingdom of the North, which was composed of ten tribes that never managed to establish a multi-generational dynasty because repeated rebellions overthrew its kings one by one, needed a myth of capture, which would be a national glue for all the tribes. This social need was fulfilled by the Exodus tradition, a tradition that speaks of God's direct choice of his people, not through some royal intermediary.
After the destruction of the kingdom of Samaria in the exile of the ten tribes, the kings of Jerusalem Hezekiah and Josiah try to bring the people of the north who were not exiled closer to them: we are one people, they tell them. Indeed, northern priests bring their traditions with them to Jerusalem. The core of the book of Deuteronomy is a clear example of this, and this is the right time to also embrace the tradition of the Exodus, which after the destruction of Samaria no longer endangers the myth of the House of David. This is how the book of Deveri, the book of Jeremiah and the book of Ezekiel appear.
- In the same topic on the science website:
- Exodus - the unbelievable numbers
- Exodus from Egypt - an invented narrative
- The biggest spin in history
102 תגובות
Despite its name, the Hidravot site does not call for Hidravot but for repentance.
She wrote a lot of nonsense that I don't have time and energy to address each and every one
To summarize the discussion we need to get to the point and not go round and round
The point is 1
Was the Torah given by the Creator of the world to the people of Israel, or was it written by humans (by the way, humans? Not the monkey? Where did the concept come from that they all came out of Adam..? Let's leave it at that for now)
If it was given by the Creator of the world, then everything is true from A to Z
And if I have flesh and blood there is no need to comment
I don't intend to prove and argue if anyone thinks what they want. For those who are interested in the material, there is a site for conversations and at higher levels, a site for values Rabbi Neugerschl and more
The only miracle that has happened in human history is science. Despite the ignorant religion, politics and stupidity of most people, a few scientists have ever succeeded in bringing humanity from the survival situation of 300 years ago to today: in medicine, food, transportation, information. If science was like 'God', demanding respect or threatening, the ignorant would be writing these comments and fighting with a carrier pigeon. and half life Too bad not.
I would go look for the studies of the greatest archaeologist in the Land of Israel, Prof. Adam Zartel. There is an accepted explanation that there was an entry into Samaria, and from there the occupation of the land.
The problem is, if all you wrote is that you are denying what is written because no archeological findings were found, you cannot rule out what is written due to a lack of archeological findings. I would appreciate it if you could please look at the link in the comment below my comment. Only every nation in the beginning of its journey says that they were the best and ruled all of the world, what is today called the Golden Age, and only among Jews is it with their ancestors who started as slaves, who started as nomads, and then slaves, then nomads again, and after all that, the promise that one day will be perfectly good, everything else is A touch of goodness for about 58 years, a total of absolute goodness in the days of the Jews for their generations. By the way, on the subject of what they found in the Egyptian papyri, it is necessary to understand that this is part of the truth, because even then Egyptologists could not say that G-d did it, because then they would deny the divinity of light as an exclusive god because If your God can be beaten then he has successfully ceased to be God
https://www.knowingfaith.co.il/%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%90-%D7%95%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%99%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%92%D7%99%D7%94/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9D-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%94-%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D
see also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3UAPrBh8TU
ו
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSB4VDzjgVc&t=342s
I wonder if you have already repented since then
The exodus from Egypt is a parable about the embryo's exit from its mother's womb. Jehovah-Shua Jehovah is the only sustaining savior who is the psychophysical germ. Virgin Mary, this is the pure water, the water of the womb, the womb is a narrow place and exiting it is physically and spiritually difficult. Egypt-Yam refers to the low place in the human body where the wild place or the pharaohs reside. And it is important that the word Germany is an innocent word GERM an ya.... notice the word germ there? Do you notice the word ya? Lebanon is also not an innocent word for white-on white power or the power of light, you have no idea where you live and what is happening around you. Basically most of you are lost in a world of propaganda material.
How dare you say that something like the Bible is late if you haven't noticed that there is even evidence that the splitting of the Red Sea happened twice! So shut your mouth and immediately! Egyptian plagues also happened so you can't say that because of something that is a bit unscientific it can't exist and I also have a question ok: how do you think the human being was created? I want an answer
A question for fools who lack minimal historical knowledge when all the evidence for this still exists archaeologically in the field!
Your stuff is so wrong! I did not find any reference and answers to what you said. I would be happy if you contact me by email to discuss the matter! Thanks
It is known that every story that is described in detail like the exodus from Egypt and Moses and the like is based on something real that happened. In those times there were no JR Tolkiens to invent an entire story from scratch.
What's more... each story receives many changes over time and for the glory of the people it represents. it is known.
But the foundation is there. One of the things that actually makes me think that there was something like the Exodus is the fact that Moses is described as the prince of Egypt.
A senior officer with the terrible enemy who mistreats the people of Israel will answer... And not as Christ on a white horse from the common people... In other words, the logic also means that only someone senior in Egypt has the ability to influence decisions regarding slaves and peoples under Egyptian rule here or there..
Now there is a big problem with the fact that there are no descriptions of the Egyptians who wrote almost everything about the entire subject of the Exodus, there is no archaeological evidence to support this in the field, there is no tomb for Moses which is the most famous here, it is not known where Mount Sinai and Mount Moriah are... Luxor Giza and the Valley of the Kings is along a river The Nile is relatively close to the coast, therefore the entire population, including the slaves, lived in these areas.. So if they go from there towards Israel, there is no Suez Canal, so you can simply walk without hindrance.. The Red Sea is to the south, there is no need to tear the sea.
And also hundreds of thousands of people suddenly 40 years in the Sahara desert survive in conditions that from then until today only Bedouin tribes of several thousand people manage to survive in the desert conditions. So yes McDonalds 3 times a day from heaven... Yes it says..
but. Despite the great exaggerations in the Bible, I believe that there were cases throughout Egyptian history where groups of slaves/enemies/dissenters/immigrants gained power or status or simply posed a danger to the local government and were probably expelled/released from Egypt... in small groups of course of several thousand people mainly men. It is possible that the story of the Exodus is based on one of them.
By the way, if so, then the nation of Israel is not a "Jewish Israeli" at all, it is either Canaanite or Bedouin or Arab.
So all the blue-eyed Jews can continue to claim that grandfather's grandfather's grandfather.... No gentlemen. If anyone wants to claim that he was a shoemaker for the people of Israel who came out of Egypt, then that's only how many brown-eyed Moroccans, Yemenis, and Iraqis can say.
to my father,
The basis and source of the Exodus is in the Bible, which itself is also the source of the miracles of the "manna", etc., so that if we believe in the Exodus because the Bible is right, this will force us to also believe in the descent of the manna (note that almost all the details of the Exodus involve miracles such as the ten plagues, Calling the Red Sea, Haman, Quail, etc.)
The Talmud states and was also quoted in Rashi that the manna that miraculously came down from heaven was eaten entirely and left no needs, although it is said that what was left in the desert would flow into the stream where deer would eat it...
I don't know where you get that organic waste from 3,300 years ago that is spread over a vast desert area, must be found today. Especially since organic manure decomposes very quickly (unlike chemical manure).
Apart from that, I think there was an archaeologist who found human bones from that period 1,300 years BCE in the Sinai desert.
To "see". Just a question, so much organic matter that fell on the Chinese desert for 40 years 3,000 years ago should have left clear traces to this day. But even without miracles like manna, feeding 2.5 million people over 40 years would have left a mark. In the desert, the organic materials in the bones probably would not have decomposed. It is not clear how you want to prove an apparently scientific claim with a mystical argument.
1. The presenter writes: "A Chinese desert cannot sustain 2,500,000 souls" Has he read the Bible once? After all, it is written explicitly in the Torah about the fall of manna (Exodus XNUMX:XNUMX-XNUMX), Miriam's head, the quail (Exodus XNUMX:XNUMX-XNUMX), and the animals that Israel brought up from Egypt (Exodus XNUMX:XNUMX).
2. The presenter writes in the name of "researchers" that for at least 400 years the Torah was written only in the Old Testament and even after it was written it was not frozen but changed according to the period, so:
A. I wonder what the presenter will say in light of the fact that there is no disagreement between all the communities of Israel, not even about one word in the Torah, whether it should be written or not (as a matter of fact, there is one dispute between the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim about one letter (!) in the Torah, whether to write daka or deka, and maybe there is more Three or four disputes in total over letters alone [It is interesting to note that I once heard an important rabbi explain that since everything has a source and an allusion in the Torah, the basis of the dispute between the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim is this letter that there are such and such versions]) It would be disinformation to claim that the Torah changed with the times according to the spirit of the times and my needs The society, in which both the Torah scroll brought up from Yemen where Jews lived after the destruction of the First Temple (more than 2,420 years ago) and the Torah scroll brought up by Jews from the Diaspora countries from anywhere in the world has not changed (except for what I mentioned above).
B. The Torah is different from the Mishnah called the Torah in writing because from the time it was given from Sinai it was written.
C. Likewise, if he had read the Bible or even just the Torah, he would surely have seen an explicit commandment (mitzvah) in the Torah for every Jew to write a Torah scroll! And another commandment to the king of Israel to write another Torah book! These commandments are explicitly written in the Torah, and as above, it would be disinformation to say that the Torah was not written for 400 years, but was passed down in tradition according to (?!) it at a time when it contains a commandment for every (!) Jew to write it!
D. Another proof that the submitter of the dictation did not read the Bible even once, since it is explained in the scripture (and he went to 'XNUMX') "And Moses wrote this Torah and gave it to all the sons of Levi... and to all the elders of Israel" (and because of this, the death of Moses It is mentioned in the Torah, the sages of Israel have already clarified this and the common explanation is that the Holy One, blessed be He, says and Moses writes his death in tears (Rashi Deuteronomy XNUMX:XNUMX in the name of the Talmud (Bava Batra page XNUMX)).
But all this does not hinder the "researchers" and the presenter of the article to say that the Torah was not written at least 400 years after the Exodus!!!
3. One of the things accepted by every human being is that if you did not find something it does not say anything about the fact of its reality, but this does not prevent the author of the article from writing that since they did not find any description and evidence of the exodus from Egypt as written in the Torah (really? I think they found an engraving of a slave Hebrews in the pyramid of Egypt and they found horse bones and chariot wheels in the Red Sea from that time and many more as mentioned by one of the commenters) This means that the exodus of the Egyptians was not as written in the Torah. And this even though it is known that in the past the percentage who knew how to write in Egypt was very small and all those who chased after the Israelites drowned.
4. According to the author, the reality of Moses as the leader of Israel is just a historical fiction even though he is mentioned in the Bible more than 750 times! According to him, Moshe Rabbino was not a leader as described in the Torah (why? That's how he decided).
You decide if he read the Bible or not...
It's a shame that there are no citations for all the "sciences" you cite that I would rather call them conjectures because it doesn't seem to me that anything today can really go down to low resolutions 3332 years ago.
2 You should see the Million Assembly which was spread over no more than one small street and according to the lenient opinions there were 400,000 people, so what is the wonder that at Mount Sinai there were 600,000 men from the age of 20 and a total of souls in bodies around 2,500,000? They were not supposed to live there, but to spend hours there for about a week and receive the Torah (this class could be very crowded).
3 I don't think that a scientist can really say what the number of the Jewish population was 3292 years ago unless he has a scroll from that time, as far as I know there is no book in the world that originated 3292 years ago that describes the number of Jews since then except the Bible, I don't think they dug up the whole country and found all the houses since then, and even if you say that according to the climate and the amount of food it is not possible then: A. As far as scientists know there is a big change between our time and 3000 years ago such as global warming, work in agriculture of more than 70 percent, breeding of animals and poultry. And also there is knowledge of periods of famine since then, 600,000. If our grandson has read the Bible, then it is explained in the scriptures that half of the tribe of Gad, the tribe of Reuben and the tribe of Manasseh moved to live after the cultivation of the land beyond the Jordan, and also that the land of Israel is much larger according to the borders of the land that G-d promised to the children of Israel Confirming the pious state they have established today, XNUMX also makes it clear in the scriptures that all those XNUMX except for a few died in the desert "in this desert your corpses will fall" (Parashat Shelah Chumash in the desert)
According to archeological findings in this film.. the story of the exodus from Egypt is indeed true and the exodus was caused by it. It was proven from the scientists that there are parts of the sea where Pharaoh's army went from there to Saudi Arabia in the Aqaba gulf area.. which delimits the borders of Jordan and Israel.. And the mountain where the Israelites worked the calf is Gebel Luz and all of them are sites that the Saudis forbid entry to. Here is the film
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1087204265003608&id=100011421351566....there is archeological evidence there..unfortunately the Saudis and Bedouins know this truth well but try to silence it and prevent people from visiting these places..and the unfortunate thing is that they are going to build the Niom project, a commercial tourist project and this project will erase some of the archaeological sites that are important to Judaism and the world.
= Axomic theory ==
In the book "The Truth about the World from Axum" there is a theory of the exodus from Egypt. The facts in the book and the composition of the facts correspond to the late date of the exodus from Egypt, except for the Ipoor papyrus, which according to the author was written during the period of the kings of the 20th dynasty, when in practice researchers extend that the papyrus was written during the period of the 19th dynasty and the text itself dates to the end of the 13th century BC.
The king who knew Joseph according to the book is Ramses I, pharaoh (ruler) of ancient Egypt in the years 1320-1318 BC according to the Middle Chronology. In the stone tombstones found in Karnak (where he is referred to as a vizier and military commander) and in another tombstone in the Edinburgh Museum as a military commander and royal inspector of the grain stores. According to the theory in the book of Joseph, he arrived in Egypt during the attack of Pharaoh Harmacheb, the predecessor of Ramses I.
During the period of Ramses II (the successor of Seti I) 1337-1247 according to the high chronology.
During the time of Pharaoh Marnfath, the son of Ramses II, every male child born was thrown into the light. According to the book Tombstone of Maranfath, the description of sending the males to Lior:
"Israel was placed (from the word desolate) he has no seed. Hanaro was like a widow to Egypt"
The inscription on the tombstone describes the elimination of males in that period.
Moshe is Moses described in tomb KV15:
Seti II was the fifth ruler of the Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt and he sat on the throne during a period known for the intrigues of the dynasties. The royal KV15 tomb of Seti II in Tabis was deliberately vandalized according to the theory: Moses is the viceroy in the period of Marnfatah called Mossi (Messuwy) described as the viceroy of Kush, governor of the southern lands, the name was erased during the time of Seti II. Musi (Messuwy) in an inscription in the Temple of Stand is also referred to as "the son of the king himself.
According to the book Moses returned after Ramses III (who reigned in the years 1186-1154 BC according to the high chronology) died ZA Moses returned to Egypt during the time of Ramses the Fourth.
In the book "Scanning the Pharaohs: CT Imaging of the New Kingdom Royal Mummies" ("Scanning the Pharaohs: CT Imaging of the New Kingdom Royal Mummies") published in 2016, it is written that Ramesses III was murdered by several assassins and some of them had his leg amputated during the murder
Salt Papyrus 124 (also known as Papyrus 10055) is an ancient Egyptian papyrus from the 20th Dynasty.
The author of the salt papyrus 124 named Amennakht (Amennakht) brings various complaints against Panev, a chief worker at Deir al-Madinah whose brother, Nafhahpopet, assumed his role as chief leader upon the death of his father and was killed by an "enemy". The book does not say that it was the vizier who killed Ella and describes the use of the word enemy as being used for a stranger. And he claims to be related to the son of the chief foreman of Deir al-Madinah, Nafahpopet, who was killed during the reign of King Amenza according to the order of "Mesi".
From the period of Ramses the Fourth, his reign dates from 1155 to 1149 BC. There is the Turin papyrus describing expeditions whose purpose was to obtain stone blocks as equivalent to the bricks with which the Israelites built:
The papyrus map of Turin is an ancient Egyptian map, which is considered the oldest. It is based on a papyrus discovered in Deir el Medina in Batavis, collected by Bernardino Drotti (known as "Proxonol Napoleon") in Egypt sometime before 1824 AD and now kept in the Turin Egizio Museum. The map was drawn about 1160 BC by the famous writer of Tumbamakhta, son of Ifuai. It was prepared for a quarrying expedition of Ramses IV to Hawadi Wadi in the eastern desert, which reveals Pasimbian rocks of the Arab-Nubian shield. The purpose of the expedition was to obtain blocks of stone (sandstone from Tajriavik) to be used for the statues of the king.
According to the book, during the period of Ramses the Fourth there was an exodus from Egypt.
According to the book "Papyrus Effor" describes the plagues of Egypt and the invaders who came upon the Egyptians from the Asian desert "Alas, the desert spread throughout the land a foreign tribe invaded the Egyptians (Papyrus Effor" 1:3) In another passage they are called "Amu". The writer in the book describes the papyrus as a papyrus written during the 20th dynasty, probably because it corresponds to the fact that during the time of Ramses V there was a fear of the enemy
The Turin Papyrus testifies that during the reign of Ramses V, the workers were forced to periodically stop working on the KV9 tomb of Ramses out of "fear of the enemy".
The author concludes with Emmanuel Velikovsky's theory that the enemy from Asia described in Papyrus 1:3 and during the time of Ramses V are the Amalekites whom the Israelites met even before they reached Mount Sinai are the ones described in the papyrus as "his people"
An article without a level!!! point.
You can see that the writer does not understand much about Judaism, but will draw a goal for him to deny Judaism and then to "prove" to himself that he is right.
I will not exaggerate with words, it seems to me that the writer Daniel explained the writer's baldness very well.
Petahia Bar-on
In the same way it can be said that there was a flood. After all, sometime, somewhere, there must have been some serious flood, and it rained non-stop for two weeks.
Maybe there were some Hebrew families who left Egypt for Israel. There is still a problem - Sinai was then part of Egypt...
The Trojan War is also considered an imaginary plot written by the poet Homer, (by the way, its existence is also in doubt). Finally they found the remains of Troy, so there was the Trojan War. This does not mean that Helena who ran away from her husband was involved in this war, or that in the dead of night warriors came out from a wooden horse.
Therefore, the story of the Exodus from Egypt should not be dismissed outright, it may contain a kernel of truth, but this does not mean that there were the ten plagues or the sinking of Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. Sometimes a historical event is covered in legends.
And as for the Bible, they found evidence of a figure named Balaam, this does not mean that Tunu spoke in human language. Also find the declaration of Cyrus, by the way it was not given to Jews only.
And if we take a later period, Judah was freed from the yoke of the Seleucids following the Hasmonean rebellion, this does not mean that an oil spill, which was supposed to be enough for one day, was enough for eight days.
And in conclusion, events are sometimes dressed up in fairy tales. In my opinion, the possibility that there was some exodus from Egypt should not be completely dismissed.
Miki, today we no longer admire "genius geniuses" throughout the generations. Every nation has such geniuses and if you go east enough, for example, you will find the Buddha's geniuses, and they produce works that are no less ridiculous. Of course, the world's attention today is occupied by the "geniuses of geniuses" of Muhammad, and the disaster they inflict on those who were born to this faith and on their neighbors is immeasurable.
After all, what do we have here, a collection of people, with no scientific training, who sat down and tried to reconcile contradictions in an ancient story full of holes and huge gaps with the little they knew about the world, the land, the people, the history of the people of Israel and the neighboring nations, and in the process to achieve a goal that was drawn in advance - The existence of "God" and the "Exodus" and without (too) significant contradictions to the attributes already attributed by the Jewish religion to that "God" and that "Exodus".
Come on, browse. It's like that teddy bear that was our favorite when we were three, and mom tried to patch it up and push in some more cotton wool. It's time to leave him in the crib and go out into the wide world.
The doubts you throw here are a burning insult to geniuses and geniuses geniuses such as the Sages, the generation of the Tanim and the Amorites and the first geniuses and other great sages such as Rambam and Ramban, Ramchal, Hari HaKodush, and the rest of the hand that is tilted, all of them Eshkol people and their wits are sharp and sharp and with their wisdom they deepened and they were meticulous in detail in order to pass on the tradition and that in all their investigation of the Torah truth in all its parts and it did not occur to them to cast a shred of doubt because of some absurd finding one way or another. In my view, despite all the technological superiority, we will still be inferior to them by degrees and therefore the "professional" theories Those who doubt are an ugly distortion of the history of the Jewish people.
Life
Are you claiming that the biblical story describes what happened?
I don't understand why you are content with whether there were indeed "Abraham Yitzchak Jacob" etc. and you are sure that "a letter that is supposed to report on the escape of two (!) slaves from Egypt to the desert" was indeed there and that there is evidence that "permission was given to wanderers from Edom to enter Egypt during a famine" as well You brought Mimra from "Trumpeldor" why are you not satisfied with whether there was such a person
If there is any doubt about the "Exodus from Egypt", then there is no doubt that there was a "Holocaust"
come on…
"1. The Torah is a late source" - has this been proven? How?
"2. ...for the differences in these traditions quite a few explanations have been given, but these do not eliminate the contradictions... " - who said? are you?
"3. The story in the Torah is inconsistent with logical reasoning" - on the assumption that they had to provide themselves with water and food. But this is exactly the topic for discussion, so you are actually (again) assuming what is requested.
If these are your claims, then you also meet the definition of those who "seek to prove the truth of their opinions using seemingly scientific tools, do so only to give a basis of faith to what they accept by the best of their faith."
It is said about this that "everything that makes a mistake is a mistake".
A kosher and happy holiday for all the house of Israel
I wonder if you say that the Tanach is just a book. And everything written in it is one big lie. So how is it that all the human names appear in it. And the sites are correct
Abby, why does it say waiting Your comment is awaiting moderation, and why is it waiting at all?
Not bad. It's time to sleep anyway, even on the west coast. Good night. we'll continue tomorrow
Nice, now they are also waiting for me, and more in English. Do you see what I have to deal with?
in Hayat, Israel. Quit bullshit. There are more serious things than defeating trolls. Let's take special relativity seriously and figure out what's wrong with it. Let's grab psychomechanics by the horns and make it a real scientific branch. Let's examine how much rationalization can be given to the ballistic pendulum. Time is short and the work is plentiful. enough to disperse
Conspiracies, eh?
Did you notice that you are the only commenter feeding the troll? What does this mean for your role in the force?
And I don't really care. Undoubtedly your writing is eloquent, original and entertaining, and that gives privileges. The sprouts of the dark mechanisms of the ether hardly know how to connect a sentence to a sentence. Otherwise I would willingly cooperate with them.
Shameful Confession:
I'm actually planted too.
And my blood is actually a cat.
Miracles
🙂 ♥
Before my eyes the story of R. To. Stevenson. R.H.R took upon himself the role of the evil whipper, mainly to add salt and pepper to the dry discussions, but in my opinion the one who stands behind him also stands behind serious commenter(s).
The response style may also indicate character traits - especially weaknesses. You and I appear here under our real names, and that is why we must be doubly careful with our language. Not so the ghosts who do not endanger anything...
There is the issue of self-defense. When you are attacked with sarin, you have no choice but to fight back with a weapon.
Israel Shapira
I'm not taking sides, because I didn't follow. But the two sides are talking low
I guess whoever doesn't write there is avoiding it, but it's not important
Thanks Chilaba. I knew you would know how to take care of him. Note also that he really tried to argue, but since he can't write more than a few words without starting to cuss, especially curses involving bodily functions and secretions, I had no choice but to send him back to the locked ward.
By the way, if you are wondering whether his problem is only with me, please refer to this response from 2010:
https://www.hayadan.org.il/cheats-in-science-1906108/comment-page-16/#comment-272215
There are many more examples.
And pay attention to the characteristic features of all anonymous cowards: stupidity, arrogance, arrogance, and above all - laziness.
Miracles - you're lucky you haven't come across an anonymous troll yet. Go to the thread in this article and see how he drags it from a legitimate discussion to the cesspool. If you are forced to drag in the future and respond to him, you will quickly prove that there is no point in arguing with him. Any disagreement with his superficial and shallow views will be answered in the only way he knows - sprouting in the head.
Anonymous - come on, say the last word, and run back to the den of the other anonymous rabbits.
Say - can you go even lower?
Anonymous, I owe you an apology. sincerely.
A long time ago (two years or so) I was unfairly criticized in Israel. You hunted me down. Since then, things have happened and my opinion of him has changed positively. I left you alone in the battle against him and I didn't even thank you for your support. It is important to me that you know that I greatly appreciate your ability to analyze and your stubborn resistance to the long and exhausting arguments with him and with troublemakers in general.
To Israel's credit it can be said that he works persistently and tirelessly to solve mysteries, but from my narrow point of view I attribute this to his duty since he took the whole stage for himself and did not allow me to express myself. There is probably an error in the basic assumptions he makes, which leads to a paradox, but I didn't bother to put my finger on it. You get into the thick of it with him, until you get tired. I was very, very tired before.
I believe that it is no coincidence that he says that he went to play poker (and also that he counted cards in blackjack in Las Vegas). It seems to me that when he discovers new physics, he bets the whole pot. Maybe he will really win world fame and maybe he will only be remembered in the history of science as "Yuval Chaikin's Chilab". Ketoni predicts the future. I put my writer envy aside and cross my fingers for him.
Anonymous (Alek).
Down to earth, coward.
Israel
Do yourself a favor and shut up already.
anonymous
She decorated.
What exactly are you talking about Israel Shapira?
What exactly are you hurt by?
And why do you immediately run to cry for Jubilee? You are unable to present an authentic opinion?
Well, apparently one comes on days like you just to fart..
Good luck in poker and be careful not to lose the bottom as well
Yuval, look what you did.
What, didn't you know that if you write "psychomechanics" then all the psychos and idiots will crawl from all corners and start cursing? Take responsibility, which your company. I'm old and tired enough to take care of all the sociopaths that the site allows them to vent their many years of anger by attacking other commenters.
(By the way - psychomechanics at its best. They try to lower their own entropy by raising the entropy of others).
So this is your field. I'm going to play poker now.
Anemia - the interest in treatment. We have special people to handle cases like yours.
Pee and sleep, snooze.
Israel Shapira you are just a chatterbox. And not one that is particularly intelligent.
And I had no doubt you would know who I was. I just didn't feel like writing a period twice. (Then it became a habit)
If you want to learn from the discussion, feel free to change your tone.
If not, and you wish to continue to be offended and take to heart everything that is said even when it has nothing to do with you, shame on you.
Futz.
Anonymous, Oriyata man,
Do yourself a favor and go home.
By the way - after two sentences I already knew who you were. You can hide behind anonymity with the other cowards, but you will never be able to change the shallow writing style. Zero remains zero.
Israel
I don't need to know you to understand what you're saying.
And I don't need to know you or introduce myself to you to tell you anything.
Apparently you are not referring to the substance of the matter because you are more interested in the respondent's body. (And here too I don't need to know you to discover this side of your personality).
Who is Ayn Rand? never mind.
"Let's conclude that all the offensive comments were thrown at you and you apologize and get back into the groove: a cultural discussion without personal comments." - You summed up and spouted more nonsense.
I thought you had improved but I find you no less rude than before.
And by the way, it doesn't matter how they say... You still can't teach an old dog to pee outside if he's used to peeing all over the house. Hoping that at least Lavi learned something over the years.
Continue through a plate.
anonymous.
There is no doubt that you examine the heart and kidneys.. fact: you know my financial, mental, and political views.. and this even though you don't know me at all.
I think you read a little too much Ayn Rand.
Let's conclude that all the insulting comments were thrown at you and you apologize and get back into the groove: a cultural discussion without personal comments.
By the way, they say:
You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
jubilee
"Between Israel and me, he is the wizard of words. I am amazed by his writing every time. Although sometimes I can't find the main idea in him because of the many words, but what is that compared to the wonderful literary experience? I'm the one who just talks a lot."
- If you enjoy the design of the plate more than the quality of the dish, it's a matter of taste.. so be it.
"And according to you: entropy is indeed a well-defined concept. See, for example, in Wikipedia" - I was talking about entropy in the social field, not about the concept of entropy. It seems you didn't understand. so be it. you can't teach an old dog new tricks
And what's wrong with you and what does it even matter what my name is??
Israel
It seems you didn't understand either. so be it. Hope you understand as long as you are able to do something about it.
And what is the connection to the murder that happened??
You are not the only one who has lived in the US for 30 years. I have uncles and cousins who have lived there for 30 years. So what? You think I don't know what's going on with them?
Happiness is not related, as you try to paint, to communication between people.
Happiness is just another feeling that exists in humans, like love, jealousy, anger, sadness, pain, etc.
All of them are also related to communication between people. but do not derive directly from it.
The children of the caputs may not be happy, as you say, but it has nothing to do with US capitalism. (If you are convinced that it is - prove it).
And the fact that there are children who are making fun of them is not a reason for me to ask for their forgiveness as you would like.
If you think that my happiness comes at the expense of yours, then you are showing the ugly side of your personality that tells me that I must not be happy because then you will be depressed.
If you think that the happiness of so-and-so comes at the expense of the happiness of Anonymous, then you are an immoral person, because you will allow yourself to steal the happiness of another person just so that you can be happy.
Once again, happiness can be produced through wealth like in the US.
And the above does not come at the expense of someone else's happiness.
Happiness in this case comes to humans from the wealth, and the "entropic loss" goes to the wealth. The coins are sad for the person to be happy.
The problem here too, most people (and I assume you and Yuval as a whole) do not enjoy happiness because wealth is still far from them.
But once again: no one took your wealth from you and made you depressed... you probably just don't know how to be happy without someone else being miserable and poor.
If there are any questions, I will gladly answer them, if not, good luck and all the best.
What a wizard, hardly an Ash"fest.
The main idea of psychomechanics is summarized I believe in the previous response.
And regarding the response of Anoni Shagors: "The USA can, through capitalism, produce artificial happiness in its citizens. for example. I think it is also possible with non-capitalist means to produce happiness and suppress the depressed and depressed."
So here is news from the last few hours:
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/15/2631994
A fairly common thing in the US from the pleasure bar.
Adam Lanza who murdered the children in Connecticut was a rejected baking boy, said his mother who used to sit with him in class when he was a child to shield him from the bullying of the other children. He didn't help her - he killed her too.
And about this in my previous response:
This is the essence of the second law of psychomechanics. Order in the thermodynamic system is compared to happiness in the psychodynamic system, and just as the tendency of order in a closed thermodynamic system is to diminish over time, so the tendency of happiness in a closed psychomechanical system, such as the earth, is to diminish, which causes the system to spread and push the dissatisfaction to the social fringes that are left behind.
So yes, a capitalist country is undoubtedly happy, unless you are a squatter in the ghetto, homeless on the street, or just anonymous like many millions who spend their lives without family, without company, waiting for Thanksgiving or Christmas when they might get to see the children for a few hours.
On the other hand, what do I know - I've only lived in the US for 30 years.
Thank you Israel. I hope so too, but it seems to me that the issue is only at the beginning. If there are real consequences in what you do, then you have made an important contribution to the science of sociophysics [Sociophysics]
(Y)
Anonymous (why did you have to put a name?)!
Between Israel and me, he is the wizard of words. I am amazed by his writing every time. Although sometimes I can't find the main idea in him because of the many words, but what is that compared to the wonderful literary experience? I'm the one who just talks a lot.
And according to you: entropy is indeed a well-defined concept. R., for example, in Wikipedia
we,
Thanks for the review. I will study it when I have time, and if I can understand what you meant.
jubilee.
Hope you got an answer to your question. It seems to me that the topic has been summed up a long time ago.
Israel
as our disappointment.
The veil was already removed at the beginning. Have you noticed that finding out my name interests you more than the content of things? It's probably part of the same psychomechanics you're talking about. Admittedly, I admit that I have not read the movie or seen the book. )) (Or is the psychomachine a figment of your imagination at all..)
I went through the things you wrote and did not delve into them too much, because it is not clear to me what you wrote. From what I understand you are talking about happiness.
And yes, I still don't understand what you wanted to say using the concept of happiness.
What I did notice was that you asked a question: "Regarding 3: Can we really?" - Yes.
The USA can, through capitalism, produce artificial happiness in its citizens. for example. I think that it is also possible with non-capitalist means to produce happiness and suppress the depressed.
jubilee
"Anonymous, your words are vague. I will refer to only one line. Human behaviors can be explained with all kinds of tools, and it is not impossible that several tools will be valid at the same time. But I'm looking for the simplest possible explanation."
I answered you, vaguely - "entropy".
It seems that you, like Israel, like to talk a lot but underestimate the study of the subject. With all due respect.
jubilee,
I've been very busy lately and it's a bit difficult for me to entertain myself in other directions. That's why I will limit myself to only additional quotations from Law B's sentence.
Anonymous - Isn't it time to remove the veil? We all identify ourselves here by our full name.
In a survey conducted on behalf of the "Psychomechanics Group" and including a sample representing all strata of the country's population, the first question was: "Do you believe that the average person is richer today than in the past?"
A large majority of the respondents - 82% - responded positively to the question, and for understandable reasons. In the past, in many cases, it was considered "rich" to have more than one pair of shoes or one suit. The vast majority of the population worked hard in agriculture, for little pay or as serfs or slaves.
Only a small minority enjoyed a reasonable standard of living, and even that would not be considered particularly high by modern standards.
Also to the second question - "Do you believe that the average person is healthier today than in the past?" 78% answered in the affirmative. Indeed, modern life expectancy is infinitely greater than in the past. It is true that there were people in ancient times who lived long and healthy lives, but most people did not pass the age of 40, infant mortality was much higher than today, and diseases and epidemics shortened and made my remaining life miserable.
Therefore, it is somewhat surprising that the third question: "Do you believe that the average person is happier today than in the past?" Only 18% answered in the affirmative, while a similar number of respondents added that they believe the situation is the opposite!
why? We are healthier, richer, live longer lives - and still aren't we happier? How?
And as if to add insult to injury, today humanity has at its disposal a science that did not exist until the end of the nineteenth century: the science of psychology, whose entire purpose is the mental well-being of man, and whose purpose, it must be assumed, is to increase human happiness.
Are the respondents wrong? Of course, they cannot measure a vague and immeasurable state like happiness, especially in others, and certainly not in the past. This is also why the questions were formulated in the language "Do you believe?" But many people caught the intuitive truth in the answers.
The solution to the paradox apparently lies in the fourth question: "Do you believe that personal happiness originates from interaction with nature (fields, animals, the sea and against them natural disasters, hunger and cold, etc.) or interaction with other people (love, friendship, family and against them hatred, jealousy or human-made disasters and harms)?"
No less than 92% of the respondents answered that the main source of happiness is interaction with other people. And in addition, many respondents added on their own initiative, an intentional injury to people is many times more serious than an injury with similar damage caused as a result of an accident.
After analyzing the question, "the man of psychomechanics" defined the dilemma facing the group as follows:
1. Fact: Science and medicine have improved the state of health and life expectancy on earth.
2. Assumption: the actions and feelings of humans can be studied and improved through psychological methods (education, therapy, conditioning, etc.).
3. Conclusion: We can increase human happiness on earth by "mass production" of these methods, and apply them to as large a number of people as possible, just as mass vaccination eradicated most plagues.
4. Question: Regarding 3: Can we really?
Let's make the standards stricter: let's say that psychology will reach perfection, and genetic engineering combined with natural selection will create perfect people, so perfect that even the traits of contentment and happiness will be cloned for every person in the world. Will the star of Aquarius finally shine, and happiness and harmony will prevail in the world?
No, psychomechanics tells us.
Not with the means and methods used today. These can help the individual to improve his condition in relation to the general, but since happiness is a relative state, then improvement in the condition of the individual must come at the expense of the general, or alternatively the caring body whose positive mental energy will be deprived of the general.
This is the essence of the second law of psychomechanics. Order in the thermodynamic system is compared to happiness in the psychodynamic system, and just as the tendency of order in a closed thermodynamic system is to diminish over time, so the tendency of happiness in a closed psychomechanical system, such as the earth, is to diminish, which causes the system to spread and push the dissatisfaction to the social fringes that are left behind.
If you succeeded through hard work and study to improve your score on the psychometric exam or the QI test, you inevitably pushed someone else down, because I Q100 by its very definition is a measure that reflects average intelligence. And the same will happen to you if you are forced to compete for your place at the university with a group of endlessly hardworking and devilishly talented Chinese, who will raise the grade bar and fix you without a way out on the left side of the bell curve.
Anonymous, your words are vague. I will refer to only one line. Human behaviors can be explained with all kinds of tools, and it is not impossible that several tools will be valid at the same time. But I'm looking for the simplest possible explanation. Israel draws a parallel between sociological processes and physical phenomena. Because of the many shared similarities, Israel says that this parallel is relevant. If so, then it is possible that there is room to parallel the causes of those processes as well. For example, one can point to psychological qualities that are common to all human beings and that are at the foundation of sociological phenomena, and opposite them to physical qualities that are common to all the particles of matter and that cause the physical phenomena, and show that there is a parallel or perhaps even an identity between them. But if there aren't any at the micro level, there isn't much justification for paralleling the macro level
Israel, I guess you are right. ))
I will think about it and respond later.
Yuval, human behavior can be explained with all kinds of tools.
Entropy, in every part of nature, is like the evolution of every part of nature. Changes (sometimes regular and sometimes irregular) in the entropy of X causes a change in the behavior of X within plot Y. In simple words. (Of course, everything is much more complex and complicated)
You seem to agree that hedonism is not fiction. But I did not see an explanation from your side as to how this happened. Can you point to the exclusivity of psychomechanics in the process in which the inheritance/inheritance of ideology occurred?
I don't make it difficult just for the sake of making it difficult. Simply, it seems to me that the causes of the complex of human behaviors can be explained with other tools, and that psychomechanics can be dispensed with. On the other hand, I did not come to hurt your honor and dignity. on the contrary. I consider the ability to project one field onto another a blessed creativity.
And by the way, would you be able to project onto sociology from other physical fields, for example from the theory of relativity?
A examiner.
Indeed, as you say, "the behavior of entropy depends on the system in which it occurs".
But if you take a collection of such systems and enclose them in an isolated system (a heat insulated gas balloon is a good example), you will see that although each system can change its entropy, even decrease in entropy, the total entropy in that balloon does not decrease.
The implication for social systems: it is possible to lower the entropy of a single social system, but this is only by increasing the entropy of another social system. This is because DHA is a closed psychomechanical system.
From: "The Law of the Second Law of Thermodynamics":
If, as claimed, human systems behave approximately as thermodynamic systems, does this not require the existence of a principle similar to the law of entropy for human societies? A hair-raising answer: a probability that tends to one as the system is larger and more random, or simply: yes. And hence the fateful question: Can the earth, which is a closed psychomechanical system, decrease its total psychomechanical entropy? A disappointing and discouraging answer: not on his own. The "second law of psychomechanics" excludes the possibility that the entropy in a closed psychomechanical system will decrease, unless the entropy of another system increases.
You can say hello to world peace and brotherhood. Any prosperity and abundance in one group will always come at the expense of another group. The hour of Aquarius will not come on its own, and it will not help if the moon rises in the seventh house and Jupiter and Mars line up as one man. Without an external source of psychomechanical energy, any closed system, be it a state, religious belief or economic status, and subject to psychomechanical pressure, is doomed to a constant tendency to expand as a way of reducing its own local entropy - and this in the absence of free psychomechanical space, at the expense of another psychomechanical system.
jubilee:
I actually answered your question. You asked: "Is it possible to identify signs that we have inherited that ideology, at least in part?"
And I answered: "Of course we inherited the ideology. Is it possible otherwise?”
I meant more in the second root of "inheritance" - heredity.
If you think otherwise, look at the newspapers from 13 years ago, when it seemed that the peace process between us and the Palestinians was nearing its successful end (this was even before the Barak - Arafat meeting at Camp David, after which the second intifada broke out).
You see that without a threatening external force, we were almost faced with an internal fratricidal war between the religious and the secular. Much worse than the situation today.
And why go far? This site of ours devotes a considerable part of his writings to the same subject, and see the fervor with which the sons of Yehuda fight with each other, all of them wise and educated sages, and you are among them. (E.A.: Rasha).
Thank you Nissim (since in Mal'ra, then I subtract iodine from the first syllable). I am well and I hope that you are as well.
A split second after I launched the question I regretted it. But a nice discussion developed here, and I was comforted by that. Each one identifies with the memory of those who perished in his path and each emphasizes what his world view tells him. I am seriously debating between the right of the map and the left. In front of my eyes at that moment stood the very controversial term coined by Rabbi Isaiah Leibovitch, which unites the oppressor with his victim.
Israel Shapira makes a projection from physics to sociology and finds a parallel between thermodynamics and historical processes. This time I asked not about a historical process but about an ideology and he managed to avoid it with his characteristic elegance and plenty of words...
Israel
Right. But note that all the change happens within a closed system (for example: the balloon).
B. All: Human societies are not composed as a solid mass or liquid or gas or plasma. Hence the "social entropy" (let's call it that) does not behave as expected from the entropy of a gas inside a balloon. That is, the entropy behavior in both cases is different. And it depends on the behavior of the system in which it is located. In other words, entropy is entropy but behavior
Entropy depends on the system in which it occurs.
(I hope the wording is clear enough because the topic is somewhat vague : )) If not, then please comment).
That's it for now.
over.
Miracles.
Freeze the balloon.
The gas will turn into a liquid, or even a solid if the temperature is low enough. Any change in the state of aggregation changes the entropy.
jubilee
Hello. How are you? (Indeed that was me, there)
"Can we detect signs that we have inherited that ideology, at least in part?" - Why did we inherit? It was inherent in us from time immemorial (note that this is also another way of saying "we inherited").
Regarding the entropy. Question: How do you change (let's say you want to change) the entropy level inside a gas balloon?
jubilee:
From "The Law of the Second Law of Thermodynamics:
"No less interesting is the explanation given by the group to the problem of anti-Semitism. According to the argument of psychomechanics, it does not matter at all what the Jews will do, who they are, what they are and whether they even exist. The source of the problem is one group - the anti-Semites - trying to lower its own psychomechanical entropy by raising the entropy of another group, the Jews.
This claim fits nicely with the finding that anti-Semitism increases in times of crisis, when the psychomechanical pressure increases, and also with the existence of anti-Semitism in countries where there are no Jews at all. This is because, according to the fundamental law of psychomechanics, our feelings arise from the form in which we perceive reality, even if it is only a simulated reality."
And of course we inherited the ideology. Is it possible otherwise? In a previous response I wrote:
"Indeed, entropy is an integral part of any social system. You can't get rid of it, so you can try to throw it out, and this, unfortunately, at the expense of another social system. By musical chairs".
Musical chairs have fewer chairs than participants. Therefore, if you are good, quick and lucky, then you inevitably pushed someone out.
So the Europeans threw us out of Europe, and we came to Israel and somehow now the Palestinians who lived here before are in Gaza and Jordan in refugee camps, they tried to throw Hussein in 70 but he threw them in Black September to Lebanon, from where we threw them in 82 to Tunisia...
Had Gadiya, Had Gadiya.
Have you heard about the Arab Spring? The country has been quiet for 40 years, now we have new neighbors on the Syrian border, Al Qaeda, who threw out the Alawites who were there before.
On the occasion of Holocaust Day: Israel!
"In terms of psychomechanics, the Europeans knew how to export entropy outside". Are there signs that we have inherited that ideology, at least in part?
To those who make the claim you mentioned, I immediately answer that statistics is a real natural factor.
But I ask about the how: how is the energy always distributed in the same regularity? I look for the answer with mathematical tools (including statistics) and go through the mechanics of a concentration cascade - and hence my attempt to legitimize the movement.
Some argue that the second law is a statistical law and not a true natural law. The whole concept of entropy originates from the amount of energy of the various parts of the system divided by the absolute temperature. Therefore, when ice melts into water at the same temperature, the entropy increases even though the temperature does not change, and this is because of the heat contained in the water. There is no connection to Pafua and Co.
Prepare a jar of multi-crow honey
And sleep peacefully all winter.
where! New name, old face 🙂 how are you?
A year and a half ago I looked like two bears. thanks for the reminder
Israel! If I'm not mistaken, you look at entropy as a fundamental, axiomatic law of nature. I, on the other hand, am looking for the causes of the phenomenon and suggest a butterfly, which seems more basic to me.
One of my first purchases, less than a month ago, is a new waterpik model that replaced the old one. Thanks for the recommendation. My mother shares her warmth.
Ezekiel and Job, not a big deal. Simply, following literary techniques led me to assume that one person wrote both
Indeed, a proposal to the point, which suffers from the marginal flaw that there is no connection between entropy and decay.
And not for penetration, seepage, entry, spread, diffusion, osmosis.
And not anymore.
And entropy is not so easy to understand, many confuse it with energy. But indeed, it has many applications to entropy and other physics terms in all areas of life. A cold man, a hot girl, flowing, energetic and uplifting.
So if the laws of physics are known and quantified - why not use them in social contexts?
Instead of toothpicks, there is a mega patent here - waterpik. I have had it for several years. warmly recommended.
And what connection did you find between Job and Ezekiel? Did you know that Job was Pharaoh's advisor regarding plagues (mainly boils)?
Perhaps Ezekiel was his adviser on chariot matters?
Where - the Bigella diet is best. Only eat the hole in the middle.
Just not careful. It makes us seep..
Not only about biology and sociology and physics but also in chemistry and even in language and philosophy and I guess more... the question is how you correctly pose the question in each field you wish to test. Do you know that there are people who feed only on the energy of the sun? Have you ever considered a bear diet, they only eat once or twice a year (but a lot)?
Not the bones. I found a strong connection between Ezekiel and Job, and I believe they have one connection. But it's not really interesting.
For a long time I wanted to suggest that instead of the somewhat mysterious word "entropy" we should try to use the Hebrew word "papao". It has many synonyms - penetration, seepage, entry, spread, diffusion, osmosis and more - each of them has a simple and understandable physical explanation. It seems to me that some of the explanations can be applied to biology and even to sociology. What do you think?
Did you remember to stock up on toothpicks for the leg? If it weren't for the diet, I would convert the matzah into kneidlech...
What Ezekiel, bones? Is he also going out? What is his connection to Job Harsim?
I don't know Shalonsky that well, don't know what else he wrote. Maybe something through the miller's daughter?
Indeed, entropy is an integral part of any social system. You can't get rid of it, so you can try to throw it out, and this, unfortunately, at the expense of another social system. By musical chairs.
And in short, murder and killing are an integral part of the world's psychomechanical routine.
And by the way Job, did you find a connection between him and Ezekiel? For example, a possible co-author?
…not to mention those lions that kill other animals. If only for the food!
And those killer cars… oh my
jubilee.
Not only do I not know how to arrange email messages about comments in the new format of the comments system, I also don't know how to search for old articles. I also don't know how to read comments from the iPhone and I don't know what all this improvement in the format is for if it only complicates things.
On the other hand, I also don't know the time of the calving of the Yaelah el Sela and where you were in the foundations of the earth, so that doesn't mean much. Therefore, like Job in his time, I humbly accept my bitter fate. Israel is just a small pawn in the great game of life.
So that's it, that in the second half of the 20th century, no less innocents died than in the first (it's fine, it's all Asians and Africans, no one is particularly excited). In terms of psychomechanics, the Europeans knew how to export entropy out. As in East Coast concepts, Ed Katz solved the homeless problem in New York: he sent them all to Los Angeles.
And indeed you were right: 70 years ago the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising broke out. Instead of dying in Treblinka, the Jews died in Warsaw.
And unlike a thousand and one, 11 years ago after the attack on the Park Hotel, Operation Protective Wall was launched. Instead of blowing up buses, the Jews blew up Jenin.
Happy Israel
Tell me, please: Did you know how to arrange in the new format of the comment system email messages about comments to any article? I just happened to come in here and found the new list of challenges you set for me
And to your questions:
How many are innocent? Lots. There were and will be genocides. But the one I was talking about was carried out by the most culturally advanced nation (in my own eyes, at least) in the world.
On the eve of Passover seventy years ago, they..., many things happened. For example, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising broke out
And before 11, do you mean an attack on the Park Hotel in Netanya?
Google Giggles, everything is Google
Did you celebrate the second order?
It can be concluded from the article that the whole matter depends on faith and none of the claims can be scientifically proven. It's a pity for the nerves and the attempt to disprove some opinion.
jubilee.
Do you know how many innocents were slaughtered in the second half of the 20th century?
Without the charismatic leader.
And without "struggle".
And speaking of trivia: What started on Passover Eve 70 years ago?
And to distinguish a thousand thousand: before 11?
Eli
You wrote "It's interesting how an entire nation can be fed with stories that never happened and that the people themselves know that they never happened." You're right. It's really interesting. It is also interesting how a whole nation - what nation? A whole continent! - At the end of the first half of the XNUMXth century, a book called "Mabaki" (in free translation) written by one charismatic person is influenced and goes on slaughtering millions of innocents. It's really interesting. I have no satisfactory explanation for this phenomenon, but I admit its existence.
Eli, have you heard about Josiah's reform, finding the 'Book of the Covenant' and getting rid of idolatry? What is the problem with planting written stories about things that supposedly happened hundreds of years before? Today there are one and a half billion believers who believe that the angel Gabriel appeared to Muhammad, so what?
It is interesting how it is possible to feed an entire people with stories that never happened and that the people themselves know that they did not happen.
We talk here as if the people of that time were very stupid.
And there wasn't a single drop of logic in them - as if their intellectual level is like that of an autistic person with a very low level of functioning.
If today it is very difficult to convince people of the truth of any story, then even more so it was also 2500 years ago - whose time was much closer to the Exodus than our time. Especially when you take into account that there were parts of the people whose opinion is completely against the idea/story of the Exodus becoming a tradition in the Jewish people.
It seems as if it is very easy to build such a story and plant it in the minds of hundreds of thousands of people (if not millions of people) and make them believe it. Even today with all the existing technology this is not possible and even more so in the ancient times, when the Torah was written on the page, it was not possible.
It is very popular to write such an article on this site, but the story of the Exodus cannot be dismissed with the wave of a hand. And of course the assumption that all the people who lived then were ignorant is incorrect - of course the scientific knowledge that is given to us today was not given to them at that time, but that does not make them stupid without the ability to think and question.
I also noticed that every year during Passover, the following articles are uploaded here on the website to deny the correctness of the Exodus story - I think this website should deal more with science than bullshit. Religion should not be of interest to a self-respecting science website.
Arnon
There is no copyright problem with accessibility to that translation. where is it exactly?
Arnon, do you have any sources?
Interesting link on the face of it some things seem to make sense. Particularly interesting are the finds of chariots and the exact description of the crossing area in Nueva
http://rotter.net/cgi-bin/forum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=22766&forum=scoops1&viewmode=all
I read the article and it is long and it does not contain any kind of assumption or proof, either supporting or denying.
In my opinion, the event of the exodus from Egypt happened, but not as a miracle, and that a more logical explanation can be found for this story. In my opinion, the interpretations are not correct and are only intended to show that some kind of miracle happened on this occasion, and it is possible that there was none at all. For example, if we take the bloodbath, it would sound very far-fetched and illogical that the magic, the miracle, and the water turned into blood. The most logical explanation I found for this phenomenon is that there was a case identical or similar to this case - http://www.mako.co.il/hix-bizarre/Article-ee929d862574b31006.htm
And I suppose that a reasonable explanation can be found for both the other plagues and the "ripping" of the Red Sea (my hypothesis - perhaps it is not about the tearing and that the sea is divided into two parts as we think. In my opinion, it is about a crossing, a transition, and maybe the two parts are that in one part the Israelites cross and in the other Pharaoh and his army, who are chasing the Israelites).
David. D
It is a higher power that brought about Israel's victory on Yom Kippur or in the six days, etc., this is what is in the writings of the sages of the Torah,
Believers like you will say today and in hundreds and thousands of years, that this is a fact, even though it is clear that it is not a fact and there is no proof or finding..
If we were indeed slaves and they went out and conquered, there would be no superior power and it was created as in our days in the imaginations and minds of the believers and their leaders.
There was something in this story (I don't believe God) it is not real, this story the writers exaggerated the story
Those who know a little history. So he knows that year that the Israelites who blessed the Egyptians were ruled by the Egyptians "in the Holy Land". And there are stories that history tells with it, but not like that, I'm looking for the idea of why if they write and don't come to see if it was him, I'm looking for their beauty
Happy holiday
Rational, it's been a long time since I've seen things so irrational as you say....
1. The story of the exodus from Egypt was passed down from generation to generation from father to son when the tradition is that the entire nation was present at the event and thus the tradition passed from father to son.
what??? You simply do not know, what happened in the days of King Yezekiah? The verse writes to God, that they did Pesach which they had not done since the days of Solomon, so how did it pass from generation to generation? by the foreign labor they worked? And in the days of Ezra, when they returned from the exile, they did not begin to know what was happening with them, they married Gentiles, they forgot the entire Torah, etc., was this passed from generation to generation?
Too bad this claim was already rejected hundreds of years ago.
2. The entire nation believed in the exodus from Egypt and there was one version of this and not multiple versions. First of all your words are proof to the contrary, tell me, have you ever seen a fact that there were a hundred witnesses, and each one tells exactly the same thing? Everyone has their differences, everyone has different feelings, and everyone takes a different point, take the Holocaust for example, they all testified that the Germans persecuted them, but did they all tell exactly the same story?
If the Exodus was indeed passed down from generation to generation, then each family had different stories of what happened, different stories of emotions, etc. But maybe, everyone tells the exact same story from what they read in the Bible.
3. Of course, it must be remembered that the witnesses who passed on the tradition of the Exodus from Egypt are respected people with qualities of honesty and reliability (from the people who were present at the event such as Moses and Joshua to King David and so on...).
I have already answered this, there is a big break in the days of Hezekiah and in the days of Ezra, Ezra simply had the possibility to tell the Jews what was good in his eyes.
4. There is no logical reason for the people to invent that he was a people of slaves who worked hard and was humiliated, his babies were destroyed and his wives were raped and then he was freed and conquered the Land of Israel from the Canaanites.
No reason? There are many reasons to tell how the king of kings chose them from all the nations and did signs and wonders to save them even their servants.
Apart from the fact that according to archeological inventions, it was simply a folk story, which happened to Hebrew tribes that lived in Canaan, and were under the Egyptian government from 2500 BC, and around the tenth century BC they were freed from their slavery.
And in short, energetic.
Give respect to the editor of the Bible. It is not for nothing that it is said "Ezra in his generation as Moses in his generation".
Moses brought the Torah according to Ezra who edited this book.
It's sad to say that everyone who wrote here is evil.
There is a famous proof of the story of the exodus from Egypt and it is engraved in the Khatanpur inscription which was a disturbance after the exodus from Egypt. This is an Estola that is preserved in the British Museum and was written about at length in the August 1941 issue of National Geographic Magazine.
Because of the war, this story is pretty much forgotten and today they don't write about this address due to various copyright claims of the translator (Sir Antony Winford) which should end in 2026 (70 years after his death). His heirs are demanding more than £16 million for the copyright so no one is currently dealing with this address.
It is sad to discover that all the "enlightened" people, on both sides of the fence, do not bother to read the facts.
In the days when people were illiterate and modern means of communication did not exist, it was easy to sit around the fire and tell stories about miracles and wonders. And then one of the saviors got up, went to the neighbor's fire and told them and so on. This is how the myths were passed down from generation to generation. What are stories that have nothing to do with reality.
Uncle
Do you really think that a wise God would have created a failure like you??
rational
Everything you say is not evidence. I'm sorry. There is no evidence for the inventions of the Israelites in Egypt.
There is nothing to do, there is no evidence to support the Exodus. More than that, there is no evidence to support any story from the Torah. The conquest of Israel as told in the beginning of the prophets is also not supported by any source of information.
David - he who believes is an idiot.
To be honest, the story here is just like the story of Jesus... a story about miracles that is told from person to person...
And for those David, Moshe Joshua, etc... there was no reason to preserve the story? Like, for example, to capture the people, to rule, etc...? See the Middle Ages...
I'm not saying it didn't happen, and I'm not saying it did happen, I wasn't there, I'm just saying that the Torah is a subjective book.
There is a reason for the people to say that they were enslaved in Egypt... because God saved them, and not others, the virtuous people, the chosen people...
Regarding the holocaust, I think that unfortunately there is more tangible evidence for this, films that testify to this, video tapes of people who experienced it, and the whole world that suffered from that war..
Mish who doesn't believe is an idiot
The difference between the truths of the stories of Jesus and the Exodus:
1. The story of the exodus from Egypt was passed down from generation to generation from father to son when the tradition is that the entire nation was present at the event and thus the tradition passed from father to son. There is no story here about someone who heard from someone else about miracle stories they read somewhere 🙂 as in the stories of Jesus and the missionaries who preached his stories hundreds of years after his death.
2. The entire nation believed in the exodus from Egypt and there was one version of this and not multiple versions. That is, no one contradicted the story of the Exodus from Egypt or went against it. When a lie exists, it ends up being revealed. A lie does not last but there is only one truth.
3. Of course, it must be remembered that the witnesses who passed down the tradition of the Exodus from Egypt are respected people with qualities of honesty and trustworthiness (from the people who were present at the event such as Moses and Joshua to King David and beyond...).
4. There is no logical reason for the people to invent that he was a people of slaves who worked hard and was humiliated, his babies were destroyed and his wives were raped and then he was freed and conquered the Land of Israel from the Canaanites. It is better for him to lie and say that he has been here forever to strengthen his hold on the country.
Of course she was.
http://www.notes.co.il/ben-hateva/24880.asp
I don't like it! It's too long!!! :(
Shmulik,
Christians have been celebrating the crucifixion of Jesus and his return to life for two thousand years. Does this mean that Jesus was really crucified and came back to life?
Shmulik:
You probably have no idea what proof is.
By the way, regarding the words of Wyatt (who by the way also claims to have found the blood of Jesus) you can read on page 238 here:
http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Wendel%20Paul%20J.pdf?acc_num=kent1207843937
2 proofs:
1. tassel (Every day - on us). Tefillin (every day except Shabbat). Shabbat.. Mezuzah. (We are surrounded by every entrance and exit of a door in the country!). new moon. Passover, Sukkot, Shavuot. New Year
Every day, every week, every month, every third of a year (roughly.. "three times a year will show all your remembrance"). Every year! all year round!
Do something, in memory of something that was, or something that wasn't?
Was Yad Vashem founded in memory of something that was or was not? Does a siren sound in memory of an event that happened or didn't happen? Are we doing everything that God forbid we forget? You think so, that it will not be forgotten! While we are alive (!) and our grandfathers who survived the Holocaust are still alive - today there are Holocaust deniers!!!
What will happen in another 60 years? And what will happen in another 100, and 200 years?!? Go find out
2.
http://www.ayalla.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=72