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Simon Singh to the El Hadaan website: "Inclusion of complementary medicine treatments in insurance companies and health funds should be abolished"

Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, the authors of the book Healing or Temptation said, among other things, that the problem is twofold: the waste of money and the legitimacy that the patronage gives to alternative medicine - and in particular to its components (which are the majority) that do not pass any scientific scrutiny

Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, authors of the book Healing or Temptation in a lecture at the Cypress campus, October 18, 2010. Photo: Avi Blizovsky
Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, authors of the book Healing or Temptation in a lecture at the Cypress campus, October 18, 2010. Photo: Avi Blizovsky

The medical insurance companies (in the case of Israel's health insurance funds) must stop subsidizing alternative medicine treatments (even if they call it complementary), especially those scientifically proven to be no more effective than placebo, such as homeopathy and acupuncture. This is what Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, the authors of the book Healing or Temptation, published in Hebrew by Yediot Books and Attic Books in response to a question from the Hidaan website, offer in a joint meeting they held after their lecture at the Cypress campus, with journalists and skeptical bloggers, in which, in addition to the Hidaan website, representatives from Spinoza And from the podcast "reasonable doubt".

According to Singh, these organizations that adopt complementary medicine because of public demand cause double damage, firstly, they waste their clients' time and money on treatments that are not effective and secondly - they give them legitimacy. According to him, there is also no point in imposing regulation on areas that are not scientifically proven, because regulation on garbage causes garbage. He cites as an example the Chiropractic Association in Great Britain, which sued him for libel after the book was published, and which, despite the strict laws against libel in Great Britain, he was able to win in this trial. Chiropractic is not a scientifically proven field, so the certification of the chiropractors is meaningless.

Since the publication of their book in the UK about three years ago, the two have been conducting campaigns and within the framework of them they managed to reduce the number of people receiving homeopathic medicine and even led to the closing of one homeopathic "hospital". They are also partners in the campaign known as ten twenty-eight (referring to the ten in the 28th repetition), the glory rate of homeopathic medicines in water or sugar in the case of pills. The participants in the campaign announced a mass suicide, and at the same time in a number of central places they drank a huge amount of homeopathic sleeping pills which, according to what was written on them, was supposed to cause their death and showed that the pills had no effect.

The two are in Israel for a series of lectures and meetings with readers. One of the meetings took place on Monday in an unexpected place: Cypress Campus - a center for complementary medicine studies, affiliated to Tel Aviv University. All other institutions specializing in alternative medicine studies refused to host the two. The meeting with the students and lecturers for complementary medicine was rather interesting.

Singh, a science journalist by profession and the author of popular science books including The Secrets of Cryptography, Fermat's Last Theorem, and The Big Bang, which were translated into Hebrew and published by Yadeot Books, the Attic books and even became bestsellers, said that the idea of ​​writing a book about complementary medicine arose after watching a BBC documentary C. about a woman who underwent open heart surgery in China, and instead of anesthesia she underwent acupuncture. When he checked in depth he discovered that she had also swallowed quantities of local anesthetics in such a quantity that it was enough to anesthetize even without the Chinese acupuncture.

When he examined the bookstores in London, it became clear to him that there was not a single book that explained what complementary medicine was and that was not written by its people. However, he alone would have difficulty reaching the sources and interviewing the people of complementary medicine because from what he has written in the past his pro-scientific position is clear, which discourages those involved in this field, who he says are afraid of based criticism. Therefore he turned to Adzard Ernst, who started his career simultaneously as a conventional doctor and as a homeopath in Germany, where he also studied other fields such as acupuncture and when he moved to the UK, he decided to investigate the benefits of alternative medicine and published thousands of scientific articles and books for the professionals, but not for the general public, detailing what works And what not, according to the experiments he conducted. The book is based on Ernst's research as well as on many other studies conducted around the world that tried to determine the effectiveness of complementary medicine treatments.

"When I started, the medical establishment didn't like it, later my creativity and criticality did not go down well with the people of complementary medicine. To date, I have published about a thousand articles and a number of books, and then Simon called and asked that we write a book together. I was happy because we could reach a person on the street, we came to the conclusion that reading the existing books and websites is dangerous to health."

"Although the book criticizes alternative medicine, it is not ideological, it is only looking for facts. There are many books that take a stand in favor of alternative medicine. A few years ago I was shocked to hear from a female student that she intended to travel to West Africa and rely on homeopathic medicines to protect against malaria. I decided to conduct an experiment and asked her to contact 10 homeopathic doctors, all of them offered her homeopathic medicines even though they know that a person who was not born in these countries, will not survive three days without getting sick.

The event was moderated by Prof. Alexander Aviram, the scientific director of the National Institute for Research on Health Services and Health Policy, who concluded by saying that it turns out that 80% of the symptoms go away even without medical intervention, therefore this misleads those who practice complementary medicine into thinking that they have succeeded.

In response to the scientist's question during the event in Bruschi, do they agree with the statement that turning to complementary medicine, despite the paucity of evidence for it, is part of a wave of hostility to science that manifests itself in the belief in conspiracy theories, and a good example of this is the vaccinations, the rate of which has decreased due to a fear that has been clarified to be wrong that they cause autism.

Singh: "In England and America there is a decrease in the vaccination rate. Parents do not trust the vaccine, as a result there is an increase in morbidity. In England, the media is to blame for this - there was a study published in the Lancet 15 years ago regarding the alleged connection between vaccines and autism (and it turned out in retrospect that it was done negligently) and quoted, the journalists thought they were helping parents, why give so many vaccines. Scientists went on the radio but it didn't help. For example, a friend of mine whose relative was seriously injured is returning, she had a scientific explanation for why the vaccine helps. Then came a mother who claimed she gave her son vaccines, and after a month he showed signs of autism. Everyone listened and forgot the science. "

Ernst "A few decades ago, science promised too much. We all hoped that the epidemics would disappear and we would live forever. Science has not realized this because things are complicated, especially in chronic diseases. Today there is an opposite phenomenon - people are disappointed with science and this is one of the motivations to return to ancient wisdom."

Singh: The alternative medicine community has also increased the damage in that most homeopaths and chiropractors preach to their clients that drugs are bad, vaccines are bad, natural is good. There was a recent film on the BBC that discovered a homeopath in Scotland offering homeopathic vaccines. It is very dangerous.

But more than they wanted to voice, the two actually wanted to hear what the people of the Cypress campus had to say, and one of the students asked "What do you think about doctors who engage in alternative practices?"

Singh: "We tested this issue among doctors who also practice homeopathy, even though they know that the evidence for it is very weak. The answer is that they practice homeopathy not because they think the research supports it but because the patients are happy. In addition, as we told in our book about Benjamin Rush, a doctor who did a lot of bloodletting in the 18th century, even though there was already evidence that it didn't help, but he remembered those who recovered and not those who died. Likewise, doctors who practice homeopathy remember the successes, not the failures."

Asking from the audience, whom she identified as Tal, a lecturer at the Cypress campus in the fields of Chinese medicine and chiropractic and at the same time working on a PHD in immunology, said to Ernst: "I have benefited from many studies you have written. That's why I felt cheated in this particular book. The whole book talks about the need not to look at anecdotes, but that's exactly what you did - you talked about cases and anecdotes. You talked about the bias in the media, you have the same bias about the therapists. For example, you talked about the personalities of the inventors of the fields"

Singh: "The history of chiropractic should be told, Ed studied about 700 cases of chiropractic treatment. We look at the research and show the examples as well."

The pull and bow: And why, when the treatment does not work better than treatment with conventional medicine, do you recommend going for conventional treatment, just because it is cheaper, and why do you claim that if there is no evidence, it is a sign that it does not help??

Singh: "If the effects of a hypothetical alternative drug or treatment are similar to that of conventional medicine, it is indeed worth going by the price. But you said if there is no evidence, that doesn't mean it doesn't help. If a drug company comes up with a drug that they just say may or may not work, I will not give them a license. I will not give the child or my mother a medicine that has not been tried." And Ernst adds: "If someone claims that a certain drug works, he should provide the evidence."

Singh: "Instead of arguing, those who engage in alternative medicine practices should allocate one percent of the hundreds of millions of dollars they earn to research, if it is proven that the treatments or drugs are ineffective, it is a waste of their time and the time and money of the patients. If it helps, they will be able to earn much more. "Ntsensah, Edzard: "I conducted a study on acupuncture treatments for obesity. The bottom line - that it doesn't work beyond the placebo effect."

A Canadian journalist who was in the hall specializing in Chinese medicine had criticism that the authors did not use the results of studies done in China. It turns out that she also had misgivings about the fact that some of the 'doctors' who conducted research in the field of Chinese medicine were frauds, and that they published the results too quickly without giving the research the necessary time, but this does not mean to her claim that they are all like that, and that their results are invalid. However, later in the conversation between her and Ernst, it became clear that he had been to China, but was unable to find any reliable studies, fact - there was not a single study conducted in China that showed that Chinese medicine had no effect beyond placebo. All were positive.

Another person from the audience who is the head of the Chinese medicine department at the Cypress campus admitted: We conducted a study and found a better diagnosis for lower back pain - epidural or acupuncture. We did a small study with 30 researchers, 15 in each group. The result of the study was that they work exactly the same - but we had a problem publishing it because they were afraid that it would cost the hospitals more money, so they suggested that it would be a treatment only in cases where an epidural does not help.

Adzard: "Epidoral is not the main medicine given for lower back pain."

A student from the audience tried to explain the secret of the alert healers' power: "Doctors don't have time. You complained about the price of alternative medicine, but part of that is also the time required to hold several meetings."

Ernst: "Good medicine is holistic, bad medicine is not holistic. To say that complementary medicine has a monopoly on holism is a mistake, a good family doctor should see more than just the diagnosis. Otherwise he is not a good doctor. What you are talking about holism - you are mainly talking about intuition and not evidence."

Another question from the audience is the relationship between the university faculties and the pharmaceutical companies, which causes them to be against any alternative to these drugs.

Singh: If the public saw how science works, they would see that this is not true. The scientists criticize, science moves forward thanks to these debates. We often see that drugs that are supposed to be effective do not work as well as they thought because other scientists tested and in many cases they even take them off the shelf as in the case of Viox.

"I say that medical science is good. As a scientist you yourself are suspicious. What I liked about the alternative community is the mutual support. Not even a homeopath visited chiropractors, today they are a little more careful with promises because the bloggers make sure to remind them."

Singh: "The chiropractors didn't like it when I said they shouldn't treat babies with stomach problems. A baby cries, there is no explanation, the mother goes to the doctor, who can't find the cause, after that she goes to the chiropractor, and the disease disappears on its own, she will remember and tell everyone. We gave 100 sick children to chiropractors and 100 children to nurses who just hugged them and we found no difference in the healing rate.

Yehuda Meltzer, the editor of the series at Yedioth Books Publishing said to Lessing: "It was always a fantasy when I edited the Hebrew version of your book, why wasn't I on the team editing the original book because I had good ideas. I am challenged by intelligent people, who claimed that they were not convinced by the arguments against medicine the alternative. I asked if the claims are not convincing because the evidence is not enough? Usually they remember the anecdotes and are not convinced. Everyone knows someone who has been helped by some kind of therapy. I would dialogue with this type of reader.

Meltzer added: "After the publication of the book, I received an invitation to the media, in one of the interviews, I confronted a doctor who tried several types of homeopathy. After a few minutes I realized that he hadn't even read the book - he explained that he hadn't because it was written by people who don't believe in complementary medicine. I told him that a doctor gives penicillin to people with pneumonia, and they shouldn't believe that."

Simon Singh asked to make only one comment at the end of the event - that this is the first time they have been well received on a campus that teaches complementary medicine.

59 תגובות

  1. So until they find out if complementary medicine does work how do you propose to define it? It is true that science has not yet found conclusive proof of the effectiveness of complementary medicine, but the fact is that many people found relief when they turned to complementary medicine. On the other hand, conventional medicine gave countless times an answer that not only did not cure the patient, but caused him to suffer.

  2. Year:
    It seems to me that you did not get to the bottom of Netzer's words.
    He simply claims (as I also claim) that before declaring something as "medicine" one must check if it actually heals.
    If it really heals - it should be defined as medicine (and not as alternative or complementary medicine. That's what we really do).
    If it does not heal - it should not be defined as medicine of any kind - because it is a fraud.
    As long as it has not been tested - there is no reason to define it as medicine. Would you suggest defining an unknown substance found on the moon as an alternative food before checking if it is actually nutritious? Would you suggest defining it as an alternative food if tested and found to be non-nutritious but only harmful?

  3. scion,
    Your method is destructive to thought.
    Many drugs have not proven effective, so does that mean drugs are bad?
    A lot of drugs have been proven to be dangerous, so does that mean don't use drugs?
    This is your method, to make casual connections and suggest that it is impossible to draw conclusions.
    The placebo question is much more complicated than your silly objections.
    It may be better to examine the placebo like non-drug treatments of various types in which no active substance is given in advance, but a beneficial activity is activated in the patient.

  4. Boaz Ankri:
    Obviously, it is clear to you that I wrote my words after reading your words, so I do not understand the meaning of your recommendation.
    I think my words can clarify for you the need to differentiate between the status of alternative medicine and that of conventional medicine - a difference that in your response (which, as mentioned, I read) you propose to blur.

  5. Boaz

    Let's examine the sick people.

    I'm sure there is a subset that eats pizza.
    A subgroup of the pizza-eating patients - Tavria.

    Does this mean that pizza cures diseases?

    After all, this is exactly the point and this is what we are fighting against
    In most cases (80-90 percent) no treatment or alternatively placebo treatment will be effective

    The statistical trap is even more serious….

    Pancreatic cancer patients - tend to die less from road accidents than the rest of the population
    Is the conclusion that pancreatic cancer prevents car accidents?

    In the 16-17th century there were a lot of pirates and there was no air pollution.
    Today there are fewer pirates and there is much more air pollution.
    Do pirates prevent air pollution?

    Our instinctive attribution between correlation and causation causes us to mistakenly accept alternative medicine and the fact that a lot of money and resources are poured there to mislead us does not help and this is what we are against here.

    Since we gave it the name complementary medicine or natural or alternative medicine, it sounds as if the usual medicine is lacking (and needs to be supplemented) or unnatural or equivalent to the alternative, which is a dangerous deception. - and we fight against that.

    If alternative medicine in its many guises is good (and I use the word medicine because it is the accepted terminology, not because it is acceptable to me) those who practice it will be respected and will meet the accepted test rules for human beings for medicine.

    If the method does not work, please do not present it as a cure because there is fraud here.

    Today, what alternative medicine does is present its products in food and test them as food.

    Since alcohol for example (which is a poison) can also be sold as food, then the approvals of alternative medicine are worth nothing. To sell the product as a medicine you have to work much harder....

    And one more thing…. As soon as a treatment works, he is immediately amused by the fact that it is "real" medicine. I have yet to hear of a medical treatment that is amused that it is also "complementary", "natural" or "alternative".

    Why does one thing try to distance itself from the other while the other tries to impersonate the first?

    In any case, no one opposes the development of new medicine, even with alternative methods or methods that we do not understand how they work. What we require is a blind test that proves effectiveness or at least non-harm before it is crowned as science or medicine.

  6. Dear Michael Rothschild As far as I understand Avi Blizovsky wrote the article and not you
    Response 18 is yours
    And I referred to it in my response to the article!!
    So if you think you're right, maybe write an article yourself?
    I recommend you also read my comment
    Until then good night

  7. What is this nonsense!
    Complementary medicine is divided into many areas: naturopathy, homeopathy, food supplements based on vitamins and minerals, Chinese medicine and acupuncture, Ayurveda and Kahana and Kahana
    As someone who believes in science completely, I can say that it is impossible to rule out all alternative medicine completely and more on one foot! It's like I came and disproved all the ideas of the scientists when they didn't find a proper solution to the fiscal findings they recently discovered about their unorganized universe: dark matter, dark energy and dark flow (recently). These concepts sit well with scientists with perfect chaos in their estimations of the universe.
    I definitely believe that some parts of alternative medicine can be considered complete bullshit
    Such as homeopathy, dilution of a minus solution is supposed to activate a certain trigger in the body!, sounds delusional
    But no less illusory than quantum entanglement is a certain spin of a particle
    will transmit information even to a particle that is light years away from it sounds no less delusional, but quantum theory was able to confirm this!
    So even though I am skeptical about homeopathy...I understand that in the quantum world the reality surpasses all imagination, therefore it may be that most of the time here too interesting findings will be discovered before all kinds of scientists dismiss it outright.
    Regarding naturopathy and herbalism, please don't forget that all medicine started there from the science of plants, which are the natural pharmacy of the earth, and plants are perfect remedies for many problems. It's just that the pharmaceutical companies have the greatest interest in not encouraging this because they don't have a registered patent on a plant that is actually available to the general public
    Economic interests rule here.
    That's why we don't develop all the research on plants that are actually constantly being discovered as plants that help with diseases
    Virality for which science often has no solution, in cancer research over and over again.
    Naturopathy personally helped me quite a bit and for many others it is completely a chemistry of plants like medicine
    And whoever said the placebo effect was talking nonsense, the placebo effect can certainly have a positive effect, but with the plants it's chemistry for its own sake, like medicine (I repeated it again)
    Regarding vitamins and minerals and food supplements that are also considered part of alternative medicine
    If they are also nonsense then really the scientists are making fun of themselves
    See Dr. Linus Pauling, who won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry twice (the only one who won twice)
    Lived to the age of 91 due to taking huge amounts of vitamin c
    Dr. Pauling extensively researched the vitamin derivative and came to firm conclusions regarding the ability of the vitamin as an antioxidant that effectively fights and improves all body systems
    Okay, so this is also a field of alternative medicine, so maybe here too we will rule out the food supplements because the pharmaceutical companies have no financial interest or we will call it the placebo effect
    Hahahaha come on mate
    don't make me laugh…
    Boaz Ankri

  8. to s. From #39: An essential and main part of the placebo effect stems from the patient's faith in the "medicine", a faith that is largely fueled by the price that the "healer" demands for it (as well as for the meeting with him). For this reason, it is justified to charge money, both for homeopathic "medicines" and for amulets and holy water, provided the client believes in them and is convinced of their ability to heal (a prerequisite for any placebo success).

    Just because you call it a "placebo" doesn't mean it doesn't cure or isn't worth the money you pay for it.

  9. I had pain in my legs for a while
    For a month I slept with my head on the pillow
    And it happened to me

  10. S.
    Chinese acupuncture is also effective in some cases.
    Not for every need (as some people try to sell it) but for certain needs.
    The true test is always the trial test and there are successful trials both in the field of acupuncture and in the field of chiropractic.
    It is true that the Ministry of Health is not without mistakes, but specifically in these examples it does not seem to have made a mistake (that is, it depends of course on what it receives from the complex of chiropractic and acupuncture - and I do not know that - but there is no mistake in actually accepting these disciplines into the controlled lap of medicine and one only needs to be careful not to introduce the water the dirty together with the baby).

    S. Lam:
    The high awareness of dietary habits, vitamins, etc. - is not a product of alternative medicine but of conventional medicine.
    Research in any field refers to things that are not known in advance. So is medical research. The difference between medicine and alternative medicine is that while medicine first tests and then recommends according to the results of the test - alternative medicine first recommends and then does not test.

  11. I know many doctors and drugs that have done more harm than good,
    Hence the statement that "nothing is less effective than a placebo" is wrong.
    Also, the psychological effect of the "sham" treatment has a positive contribution to the patient's recovery process.

    There are also charlatans in law, garages, banks, etc.

    Also, thanks to alternative medicine, today in the western world there is a high awareness and tested clinical studies regarding nutritional habits, vitamins, etc. Or as Maimonides said - "Let your food be your medicine"

    It seems that all parties agree that alternative medicine lacks methodological tests according to the standards of Western medicine. However, both sides of the barrier have foreign interests (mainly financial) of which the patient is the loser.

  12. Yoav,

    A placebo is ineffective, and certainly not a cure, by definition.
    It is not that an alternative medicine is "as effective as a placebo and therefore effective",
    After all, *everything* is as effective as a placebo, there is nothing in the world that is less effective than a placebo.
    For a drug to be approved it must be *more* effective than a placebo.
    And if alternative medicine is effective "like a placebo" or in other words - like anything else,
    After all, there is no reason to take money from people for it,
    Just like it doesn't make sense to take money from people for amulets or holy water.
    This is charlatanism!

  13. Michael, just a note-
    The fact that the Ministry of Health "accepted" chiropractic and there is a law about it, does not mean that there is indeed science and truth behind it.
    For your information, there is also a bill regarding Chinese acupuncture, which refers to this method as if it is scientific and effective, although it is absolutely not so.

  14. Unfortunately, the quarrel is not between the prophets of light - the idealists of science - and the charlatans - misanthropes and lovers of greed. For many years now, institutionalized medicine has suffered from inherent problems. A-Overspecialization and division into sub-disciplines. B-Loss of ability to devote time and attention to the patient. C- Doctors' fear of not giving any prescription to the patient on the one hand and fear of lawsuits on the other. D-Commercialization of the world of medicine, led by pharmaceutical companies.
    All of these add up to a loss of trust on the part of the patients. There are frightening statistics about the huge amounts [both nominal and percentage] of antibiotics that are distributed to patients with viral diseases who every reasonable person knows are incapable of viruses. In fact, it is about weakening the patient both by unnecessary spending and by cultivating resistant strains of bacteria.

    So the embarrassed patient looks for an alternative. If the greed of the drug companies is not curbed on the one hand, along with educating the doctors for a more pleasant approach to patients, along with devoting personal time to each patient, the problem will only worsen.

  15. Ori:
    I am not insulting anyone.
    Some people are just miserable on their own.

    S. Lam:
    Maybe you decide?
    Medicine has frozen in its tracks or there is in TEDMED "a fascinating series of annual lectures that talk about breaking concepts with the help of biomedical innovations"
    The two statements contradict each other.

    Doctors are not afraid (usually) to say they don't know.
    There are two situations that could be interpreted that way but are not.
    The one situation is that they have more guesses about what to check (sometimes the guess is that another doctor might know. I don't think the fact that a doctor sends you to another doctor can be interpreted as his attempt to pretend he knows)
    The second situation is when they think it is better for the patient to believe that they know - if only to give the placebo effect a chance as well (since even in normal medicine - many of the successes are nothing but a placebo effect)

  16. And besides, the comparison between homeopathic medicines and placebo is not fair, if homeopathic medicines are as effective as placebo, it only means that they are very effective. Therefore their cost is justified.

  17. I was sick with a serious and strange illness that practically paralyzed me for many days. After a series of tests at doctors who simply sent me from one to another, I realized that they had no idea and I stopped bothering myself with doctor visits.

    After a few weeks, the disease passed by itself, without any 'completion'.

    Perhaps the main problem is that doctors are afraid to say 'we have no idea' to you go home and hope it goes away, instead they send a series of tests for CT when the suffering of the tests and waiting only makes the situation worse.

  18. This is not about sons of light versus sons of darkness.
    "Modern medicine" is not modern at all. It has remained frozen for at least a quarter of a century, with capitalism seeping deep into its bones, while technology only plays second fiddle.
    Pay attention - it pays for the clinics that we will be chronically ill. Very few medical studies give birth to "instant drugs" - because it is simply not economical. Most of the medical "solutions" strengthen our ongoing dependence on clinics that are increasingly kneeling under the load.
    Has anyone researched the percentage of surgeries that were not justified in retrospect?
    Today, every back specialist wants to "lay down" patients on the operating table, without real scientific justification (many studies confirm this).

    On the TEDMED website there is a fascinating series of annual lectures that talk about breaking concepts with the help of biomedical innovations. This elite class called doctors is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
    There is no doubt that in difficult cases, modern medicine provides a good and quick answer, but the majority of the population that makes an appointment with a doctor is not on the verge of death - and in the vast majority of cases (just like in alternative medicine), the doctor does not really help - maybe he sends for a tedious series of tests for the sth.

    And regarding alternative medicine - there is certainly room to rule out approaches that can be harmful if they have not been scientifically proven.
    However, if they are harmless and the patient thinks that the problem is solved, then both parties are satisfied and it will be difficult to convince Singh otherwise (even if he was right).

  19. Homeopathy is a scientific theory. By virtue of this, science has the tools for refutation.
    In terms of the proposed mechanism, homeopathy is unlikely to work. Nevertheless, it was tested and refuted. So why, as asked in response 16 above, do people continue to believe in her?

    because of the money
    In my experience, most of those who apply for homeopathy services, do not understand what it is about and do not bother to find out. Most of them think that this is a type of "natural" herbal medicine. The money circulating in the system is in huge quantities and the temptation to engage in the field and supplement income (hence: complementary medicine...) is great.

    If I may, I will offer an analogy:
    We know beautiful scientific theories that have been disproved: phlogiston, ether and more. The existence of the ether as a cosmic medium through which electromagnetic waves pass was disproved in an experiment by Michelson and Morley a little over a century ago. Let's say there was enough money for the system, where a million dollars was offered to anyone who could prove that the site existed despite the experiment. I am convinced that physicists would rise up to prove that the site exists. Since no one is willing to invest money to bias physical research, the bias does not occur. But mass health with miracle potions is another matter entirely.

  20. Machel
    You think insulting others makes you right!?
    No! They make you a trash talker, wash your mouth and hands.

  21. Year:
    The alternatives may (let's say!) not be more expensive, but the profit inherent in them is much greater because their "development" does not cost a single penny.
    Acquiring the fraud profession is also simpler than studying medicine.
    The alternatives have always existed but life expectancy only started to improve following conventional medicine.

  22. penny:
    Well done!
    You went to the doctors, you didn't take the medicine they gave you, the disease went away on its own, and of course... The doctors don't understand anything.

    Logic incarnate!

  23. Ori:
    You have nothing to say but the diarrhea of ​​your mouth prevents you from babbling.
    feel well

  24. To my father (21) and regarding the placebo,
    A very large part of the afflictions that lead a person to the doctor (of any kind) can be described as placebo afflictions. That is, as my father says, they will pass without treatment, probably thanks to the self-healing ability. But people have been conditioned to use drugs, especially by the drug companies. It seems to me that more people use paracetamols for headaches than those that don't, and so for all kinds of pain. We now know that painkillers leave deposits and may cause morbidity.
    If a placebo pain, a placebo medicine will not hurt, which leaves no residue and damage. It should not be forgotten that a significant part of the patients in hospitals actually suffer from haetrogenetic disease.
    And regarding the price, usually the "alternative" ones are not more expensive than the "conventional" ones.
    When we discuss what should or should not be in medicine, the main discussion is in the main, scientific and technological medicine, which is led to an excessive extent by industry and doctors who work to increase profits, more than for the benefit of the patients' health, and see for example the plastic surgery industry for the purposes of imitative aesthetics.

  25. Machel
    You wrote a quote:
    "As soon as any subject is in dispute, nothing can be deduced from it."
    In the first part of the sentence, the subject refers to "dispute"
    In the second part of the sentence, the word "from her" refers to "dispute"!
    It's simple, so there's no point in all the fuss.
    But as I said, you only take the liberty of interpretation that suits you only.

  26. I had a problem, I was referred by the family doctor to 5 different specialists who could not find an explanation, yet each of the doctors prescribed me a pill = medicine, which of course I did not take in the absence of a diagnosis. In my initiative, I used reflexology and shiatsu for two weeks and the problem completely disappeared. This is after three months of trying to help the various experts from the field of conventional medicine

  27. And one more thing, Uri.
    In your method, which is all about taking things out of context, when you quoted me you wrote "it is not possible to derive from it" and therefore it must be concluded from your words that nothing can be derived from the foreskin and circumcision should not be performed.

  28. Ori:
    A last attempt to overcome your stupidity or your reading comprehension problems.
    I wrote: "Lincoln's saying came to warn those who try to mislead, but as soon as any issue is in dispute, nothing can be deduced from it."
    The word "of her" refers to "Lincoln's saying".
    The stupidity and reading comprehension problems are attributed to you.

  29. Machel
    The sequence of words you wrote has its own meaning: this is what you wrote->
    "As soon as any subject is in dispute, nothing can be deduced from it."
    You claim that you had other intentions because you believe in intentions that cannot be measured. So religion is like that too.
    You cannot unilaterally appropriate the tools of religion. This is the scientific methodology. The laws must be invariants.

  30. Yair, what you describe is an anecdote. Alex Aviram himself explained that 80% of the symptoms go away on their own, so they would go away with a placebo or with a homeopathic doctor which is the same at best. Homeopathic medicine is actually water, if you insist on paying a lot for water - buy mineral water.

  31. Ori:
    The above words do not compromise between science and nonsense. They are just saying that among the things that have not been tested there may also be truths that have not yet been tested.
    Their projection on religion is not relevant - not from the point of view that in religion there is no willingness to replace the "truths" of religion with scientifically discovered truths, and from the point of view that religion is more concerned with laws that its believers impose on others than with faith.

    Regarding the end of my words - it seems that you did not understand him at all.
    Even if Lincoln's statement was a proven axiom (and it is not) - there were true things that cannot be deduced from it (for example, the fact that peripheral angles resting on the same chord in a circle are equal).
    What I said in that paragraph is that it is impossible to derive from Lincoln's words what Adam Adom claims to derive from them.

  32. Machel
    Why can't you use your above words in the context of religion and science
    Especially pay attention to the end of your words: "As soon as any issue is in dispute, nothing can be deduced from it."

  33. Adam Red:
    I think that in principle my opinion is the same as yours, but I would have worded things a little differently and the resulting conclusion would have been the opposite - not because of the intention but because of our different use of words.

    What is "alternative" medicine?
    It's just untested medicine (at best) or tested and failed (at worst)!
    That doesn't mean that among the untested things there isn't anything that eventually, when tested, will turn out to work.
    It should be remembered that a very large part of today's institutionalized medicine was once "alternative" and even nowadays some of the scientific research efforts are directed to find out which of the various beliefs of people represents adequate medical treatment and which does not.
    And what happens when a certain treatment procedure is proven to work? It stops being alternative medicine and becomes conventional medicine.
    This is also what happened in Israel with chiropractic.
    If you look at the "chiropractic" entry in the Hebrew Wikipedia - you will find the sentence there:
    "In Israel, the profession of chiropractic is under the supervision of the Ministry of Health, and we are a medical profession regulated by legislation, alongside communication clinics, occupational therapy and physiotherapy[1]"
    Part of the problem with alternative medicine is that it involves gender in non-gender.
    This is also the problem with the term "chiropractic". It has a part of mumbo jumbo and a part that is distinctly scientific.
    This is reflected in another sentence in the same Wikipedia entry:
    "The method is subject to significant controversy, with some studies pointing to the effectiveness and safety of the method, while others point to the dangers of the treatment and questionable effectiveness.[2] "
    If you look at the entry in the English Wikipedia, you will find there a table showing under the title Two chiropractic belief system constructs exactly the two conflicting approaches I am talking about.
    I guess Singh went against the unscientific part and the Ministry of Health embraced the scientific part.

    That's why I want to repeat what I said before: And what happens when a certain treatment procedure is proven to work? It stops being alternative medicine and becomes conventional medicine.

    This means that those who go to "alternative" treatment are actually going to a treatment that has never been proven to work (after all, what has been proven to work is already conventional medicine - even if it was "alternative" in the past).

    It is good, of course, for those who want to be a guinea pig (sometimes as part of experiments that have already failed in the past).
    It is less good for those who want to be healed.

    And by the way - I agree with you on the claim that because chiropractic also has a scientific part, it should not be associated with homeopathy which is probably all mumbo jumbo.

    The disqualification of alternative medicine does not conflict with Lincoln's statement that the crowd that believes in nonsense is not all the people.
    Lincoln's saying came to warn those who try to mislead, but as soon as any issue is in dispute, nothing can be deduced from it.

  34. One of my daughters suffered at the age of 7-8 from a severe runny nose for a very long time. About 5 or 6 doctors treated her without success. After them we brought her to a homeopathic doctor of Indian origin. He looked at her and checked her pulse. He gave her tiny pills to suck morning and evening. After a few days the runny nose went away and did not return.

    If homeopathic medicine had no basis at all, it probably would not have been able to "work" on so many people for so long. Apparently some of this medicine has good things and you shouldn't dismiss it all. Probably in the future, a number of real medicines will be discovered in this field, which currently medicine still cannot understand how they work. Just to clarify, today's medicine does not know exactly how a headache pill works, why it is so effective, what is the mechanism in the brain that it affects and above all there is no way that today's medicine can objectively say, without the patient's own opinion, that pain is indeed The head passed. ZA, just because we say that the headache has passed, medicine understands that the medicine does work. The same with homeopathy. It is not possible that if so many people say that it helps them, then it is all nonsense and it would pass by itself. The headache is also over, it goes away by itself...

    Secondly, I don't understand why chiropractic and homeopathic medicine are put in the same category? Regarding chiropractic medicine, I can say that it helps a lot. As a PhD holder in business administration, I may not have a great understanding of medicine but I am certainly able to understand what can help me. I had severe back pain that conventional medicine could not solve for six months, then an orthopedic doctor referred me to a chiropractor who solved the problem completely in ten treatments that lasted about three weeks. More than that, I send him people with severe back pain and he manages to solve their problems quickly and efficiently in places that orthopedic doctors are unable to help.
    He is undoubtedly a great expert on a practical level, in the structure of the human skeleton, vertebrae and muscles. Should he have gotten a PhD for this knowledge? I do not know. He claims that he studied the profession for six years in the USA.
    Is this even a medical profession? In my opinion definitely yes because it solves difficult medical problems that conventional medicine is unable to solve.
    Is it an exact science? Of course not, but medicine is not an exact science either. In some areas medicine is a lot of trial and error. After all, not all conventional surgeries are successful and neither are all medicines.

  36. well done!!!!! A brave article and book that is not afraid to say that the king is naked and to reveal the nakedness of all the "alternative" based solely on ignorant fears and distress [similar to the need in religion].

  37. It is worth noting that I have never known a more rational person than myself.
    I've had pain in my lower back for close to 10 years, it's a very sharp pain that would come back about once every six months.
    At first I went to doctors, I was with 5 orthopedists. One of them is even the head of an orthopedic department in a hospital. After taking pictures and feeling, each of them gave a different version of the origin of the problem. ZA 5 different versions!! One of them even said there was no choice and they had to operate!!
    The thing that surprised me the most is that all five of them knew what the problem was.. After all, doctors know everything.. None of them had the modesty to say that they didn't know..
    Since it's not a daily thing but a one-day shutdown every six months, I consciously decided to ignore it and wait for it to pass. The situation of course got worse, the pain returned more often and with greater intensity.
    My father tried to convince me to go to some chiropractor - of course I dismissed it with contempt... but finally I couldn't stand the pain and agreed.
    The chiropractor relieved my pain completely and said that I should do some exercise every time I have the pain and the pain will go away.
    And what does it mean.. Since then every time it comes back to me, I release the pain myself.
    I don't know about plants, acupuncture and other vegetables, but the movements the chiropractor taught me do help.
    I do not encourage things that are not scientifically proven - but not everything in therapy is nonsense.

    A complete agnostic and a staunch rationalist

  38. A rabbit enters a pharmacy and with his 'tooth-pulling' rabbit look he asks: "Hello, do you have carrot juice?" Carrot juice? The pharmacist replies in bewilderment. Do you have carrot juice?"..and again the pharmacist gives him the same answer..and again the rabbit came the next day..the two days after that..the pharmacist finally weeps and consults with his wife, who also happens to be a pharmacist.. know pro-vitamin A well..
    The next day the rabbit comes again and asks..oh!!..the pharmacist tells him "we made carrot juice for you"!!! "Ugh" the rabbit says to them, isn't that disgusting?..:)

  39. The successful campaign is 1023 (referring to 10 to the power of 23 - Avogadro's number, approximately)

  40. Because modern medicine kills, modern food kills, milk kills, water kills, etc., today we break a record every year in life expectancy. The researchers should take a course in research methods.

  41. The research on allopathic medicine is equally interesting

    Death by medicine

    By Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD;
    Debora Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD

    The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is nearly 800,000 per year.

    It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. By contrast, the number of deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 was 699,697, while the number of deaths attributable to cancer was 553,251.

  42. The insurance companies will be happy to reduce their obligations towards the customers so the offer is not acceptable to me. Although it should be clear that I do not believe in the benefits of complementary medicine. But the general public will run to miracle healers, magicians and rabbis of all kinds and nothing will change their behavior.
    Good Day
    Sabdarmish Yehuda

  43. What can you expect from the homeopath, who will not protect his livelihood?
    He writes in a tone of criticism, "The authors of the book sanctify "science", and scientific research as an exclusive tool to judge what is true and what is not." If that's the case, this criticism is also directed at the science website, I don't know of another body of knowledge that tests itself over and over again and that tries to get closer to the truth than science. If someone chooses another way, let them be healthy (although it is not certain that this is what will happen).
    I suggest to that homeopath to carefully check the ten twenty eight project.

  44. My wife is an alternative therapist (massage and reflexologist), all the time her clients tell her how much it helps them. Even if Moshei comes for a one-time treatment and after a few months meets her, she tells her that she really helped her.
    Does anyone here have a logical reason why you would stop???

  45. In my opinion, it makes economic sense for the health funds to offer these services.

    How many visits to complementary medicine can you get for the price of physiotherapy treatment, a visit to a specialist, CT scan, MRI? On the face of it, it seems to me that it is cheaper than most medical alternatives - especially if the patient believes that his condition is improving.

  46. What to do it's hard to fight the holy trinity of complementary medicine: placebo, mild symptoms that would go away on their own even without treatment, and personal attention and attention that you don't get from a real doctor.

    That's why this bullshit will accompany us for a long time, no matter how many studies disprove it.

  47. There are many average cases that Alt medicine does not work for those who are trained in conventional medicine.
    And on the other hand, there are so many more private cases that conventional medicine does not work and the alternative does.
    Science is appropriate and good in statistically average situations.
    And ceases to be so in discounted private cases.

  48. A very important topic to deal with.
    "Complementary medicine" is a story that generates enormous sums. And I would like to see more scientific studies that rule out (or confirm) different areas of complementary medicine.
    Any field that proves to be not really useful, we have to fight the charlatans who take advantage of the public's innocence to charge them money, time and more importantly, sacrificing their health for nothing.

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