The governments of the West and even the citizens of the West who are killed in the attacks are not the main target of the extremist Islamists, claims the Bangladeshi journalist Shafikur Rahman, according to him, they are doing this to take control of the "nation", that is, the Muslims around the world, similar to the way in which the supporters of slavery in the southern United States succeeded who feared harm to the guest their lives to take over the entire southern society
The ostentatious attacks by ISIS, such as the attack in Paris on 13/11/15, are designed to stop the wave of modernization sweeping Muslim society. So writes Shapikor Rahman, an external columnist who writes Bangladesh news site in English language Dhaka Tribiuin.
In the article entitled: Rational Barbarians, Rahman explains that acts of terrorism rarely succeed in changing the positions of governments in democratic countries, but there are many known cases of the takeover by extremist elements who advocate an uncompromising ideology over the majority of society of which they are a part, as happened, for example, in the case of supporting slavery in the southern United States. B.
"Why do the terrorists do what they do? Do they have no shred of humanity or rationality? Do they not realize that these barbaric atrocities are useless? Do they not understand that not only will the whole world be disgusted by these actions, but also that these events invite an angry and strong response from the frightened countries and societies? Do they not understand that these harsh reactions will put their brothers, sisters, cousins and friends in great danger? Every time there is a major event like the Paris attack or regular Daesh atrocities throughout the Middle East, moderate Muslims around the world are amazed and ask these questions."
"For the most part, the only answer that makes sense to them and also allows them to still maintain a moderate worldview, is that the perpetrators of these acts must be crazy; Crazy barbarians, crazy.”
"Since September 11, 2001, the subject of terrorism has been thoroughly studied and most experts now agree that, with a few exceptions, Islamic terrorists - similar to most other terrorist organizations - are rational and think, both in their choice of targets and in the tactics they employ. They can operate with a set of preferences that would seem very strange to many of us, but within that set of preferences they operate very rationally. So what are their motives for behaving so shockingly?"
"Robert Papp of the University of Chicago is one of the leading researchers in the study of terrorism, and his book from 2005 - "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" is the most cited book dealing with terrorism. He examined all the suicide attacks that took place in the years 1980-2003 - a total of 315 cases and came to the conclusion that the main motive for these attacks was "to force modern democracies to withdraw from territories they consider their homeland" but foreign occupation may be an important motive and they harm democracies because they can be made to change Policy by changing public opinion through intimidation or outrage.”
However, although Papp's theory remains influential to this day, there is much criticism of him. According to a terrorist database, the number of suicide attacks in the world jumped in the years 2003-2010 to 1,457, much more than the database analyzed by Papp. An analysis of the new events shows that while nationalism-independence remains an important factor in the causes of terrorism, Pope failed to explain the social dynamics of local politics and most importantly - he rejected the cause of religion (such as Islam) as a significant factor. New analyzes of the data show that the connection between Islam and suicide attacks is strong."
"I do not propose to delve into why there is a strong connection between Islam and extremism at this point in the history of the world, and the subject is very complex, and has also been studied very little. In general, scholars agree that radical Islam has adopted suicide terrorism as a tactic for the same purposes that other groups have used it: as an effective weapon of brute coercion and forging public opinion for their cause.”
"However, terrorist organizations also know that terrorism rarely succeeds in forcing change on countries; Diverting public opinion is what drives the terrorist organizations. In particular, the terrorists hope that traumatized people will adopt the terrorists' arguments more and more out of fear. Many studies have shown that heavy reactions by governments in places like Chechnya and Palestine are highly correlated with a rapid increase in their residents' support for terrorist organizations and their causes."
"This expectation of a change in people's minds is very important. We keep hearing that only a small minority supports extremism and a smaller group engages in terrorist activities, while the majority does not condone such acts. This is true in principle, but we fail to understand that the majority-minority dynamic is itself the biggest driver of extremism. We can understand the socio-psychological mechanism of motivation for terrorism only if we understand the impact of the terrible monster called modernization.
Most people in Muslim societies, as in all other societies, are quite indifferent to the inevitable process of modernization. They do not realize how much every aspect of their society, culture, beliefs and norms is gradually changing through modernization. But the minority knows this. They know that surrendering to history means losing the thing they hold most dear: their religious identity. They want to stop the collapse of the society they know and idealize.
"They see their brothers, their sisters, their friends, their parents - most of the people they know succumb to modernity one by one, they become committed and ready to take extreme measures to shake up the apathetic masses. We need to understand that the radical Muslims care very little about the people in the degenerate West. They are not disturbed by the loosening of morals, the mixing of the sexes, the secularization of the discourse among the people of the West. They consider these people to be going to hell anyway and it matters very little what they do in this temporary world.
But the radicals are sensitive to the state of the nation (Ummah - the Islamic nation). They were educated from the moment they were of the opinion that the nation is one body, literally. The nation is part of their self and everything else is other. When they see the nation succumbing to modernity they see themselves and their bodies melt away. It hurts them. The nation's social context in modernization for the rise of attraction evokes the extreme horrors of terrorism."
"They know that the danger of internal surrender is much more subversive than external aggression. This is why they want to create a political environment so poisoned by extremism that no compromise will be possible. You have to stay with your people or leave them completely. This is the rationale that drives the extremists from Osama bin Laden to the leaders of ISIS. They deliberately commit 'spectacular' atrocities so that the hostile reaction of the public in the attacked Western country will bring the people back home, to the one body. And they hurry, because they know that time is not on their side.
This is why attempts by a radical minority to take over the majority in their societies have often succeeded. American historians say that even in the early 19th century the attitude toward slavery in the slaveless South was gradually shifting. People began to recognize the evil of slavery. Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner and liberal beacon, repeatedly expressed his hope that workers could quickly go free through emancipation."
Condemnation of the phenomenon of slavery by most European countries and the more prosperous North made people in the South feel under siege. Their way of life was in danger of extinction. An active minority among the slave owners in the South saw the danger of surrendering the majority of the residents there to modernization and they acted. Through political maneuvering and activism and social activism, they made slavery an important component of southern identity and poisoned the political atmosphere in such a way that no compromise was possible. And then they got what they wanted: a declaration of withdrawal from the Union in 1861. What happened in the civil war that followed is another matter."
"Today, another very active minority is trying to take over the majority through extreme tactics. They want a world where there is no compromise. If the vision of a pure, united community living according to the ideals of the seventh century will succeed in meeting the fate of the South on the eve of the Civil War, that is the big question."
More of the topic in Hayadan:
Prof. Yitzhak Ben Israel: Governments wait for the threat to materialize until they start acting, as in fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, so also in cyber
Michael Shermer - Five myths about terrorism (Unfortunately one of his assumptions - that terrorism cannot take over a country was proven wrong in the case of ISIS)
78 תגובות
There is an urge after such mega attacks among a certain circle that appropriates moral reasoning and intellectual superiority to immediately look under the table for explanations where we went wrong, and why it is our fault. In complete disregard and disrespect for what the Muslim population has to say to us. After all, these inferiors (according to the leftist system) are unable to express and understand the motive for murdering non-Muslims.
Those who want to know why this is happening should listen to those who carried out the attacks and not to all the "experts" who claim to speak on their behalf. The senders of the threats issued a message on YouTube. They claim he was murdered because the victims were "cross-bearers and pagans who came to a place of abomination, lewdness and idolatry."
In other words they murdered us (the Europeans) because of who we are not because of what we did or didn't do. Not because of unemployment or no unemployment. By the way, terrorists statistically in the population are above average in academic education. The neighborhood they came from is middle class plus - but there are still those who continue to voice the false narrative that they did it out of desperation as a result of lack of education, low class and unemployment.
But what evidence can be brought to someone who does not appreciate evidence?
Whoever thinks that Hamas or the Islamic State will change their ideological platform "if only we..." Whoever thinks that Jabhat Al Nusra will stop the extermination of the Christian minorities "because..." or that Islam has the power and rape of the 200 Nigerian girls by al-Shabaab It is "if only we were..." You have to understand that our/America/occupation has nothing to do with it.
There is no Israeli occupation in Syria and look at what is happening there to non-Muslim minorities.
There is no occupation in Belgium/France/Sweden, and you have to live here in order to understand that we welcomed them here with open arms just like we welcomed Vietnamese, Indian and Japanese immigrants (exemplary immigrants by the way who succeeded above the European ethnic average)
The world could go to hell without "where did we go wrong...", without America and without "occupation" and without NATO...
Illusions and their dispersion must be avoided if we do not want to end up like the Yazidi minority (what is left of it) in Syria.
In the current situation, the last thing the world needs is another Jihadist theocratic dictatorship. Such a state in the heart of Israel will surely be a disaster for generations.
They are the greatest danger to Western civilization - a quick look at daily (anti-Semitic) cartoons in the Arab world - conveys exactly what kind of barbarians we are facing.
hypocrisy,
What you want? What promises of the world? What are you talking about? What exactly does the world owe you?
Taklut: separation from the Palestinians is necessary for us to remain a democratic state with a Jewish majority (which is the only majority that will be able to maintain a democratic state). I am interested in a democracy with a Jewish majority and you are not. That's the whole difference between us. You are no more patriotic than I am and you do not love the country more than I do. You're just a generic right-winger, without any strategy, who just wants time to pass and somehow survive another day. This is the future you promise me. Under the auspices of your terrible right-wing, you freed the Yeshiva members from conscription (or did the left do that too?) and actually under the auspices of your right-wing, everything goes, and you think you can last like this for a long time.
The game is about to end.
It seems that the difference in opinion is in the perception of Israel's power.
In my humble opinion, Israel is apparently strong against the Palestinians. But in the hostile global arena, which includes superpowers, demi-powers, neighboring enemy countries, billions of Muslims with a huge birth rate, anti-Semitic countries, and a biased and dangerous world media - we are weak.
Our existence is still in danger. We are living in a peak moment where there is one power that supports us in all respects, but who knows how long the situation will last. Meanwhile the money is flowing to the oil countries and so is the pace of their armament.
In my opinion, it is delusional bigotry, not to be a seeker of peace, not to strive for peace, not to try any way to reach peace, to deny any kind of dialogue with the other, it is our duty and responsibility to choose the most worthy leaders on both sides, and not compromise with petty politicians. As long as we are sovereign…
Depressions, unfortunately, have been experienced throughout history. The time has come to take advantage of the historic window of opportunity for great, good and brave deeds. Yes, brave, because we all have a fear of change and loss, but there is also potential for strength and social and economic leverage, because how much can one be based on victims, grief, bereavement, suffering, social divisions, economic disparities, personal, national, existential insecurity...
But such historic moves can only be led by leaders! Unfortunately for us today, the horde of nations is led only by petty politicians who combine hatred and fear to promote their agenda and their personal interests on the backs of all of us...
If you don't know all the facts what are your arguments worth? The point is that the promises of the world, just like the promises and agreements of Arabs, are engraved on ice. Go tell your takiya to someone else..
I do not. What does it matter? How does this answer my argument?
Shmulik
In your style you are reminiscent of blowing water, unless you are it.
hypocrisy,
What are you talking about?
What letter? What do you want from our lives? Who owes you anything? By what right do you ask for funding for your crimes? Don't you have any shame in collecting alms from the Americans and then still dirtying them? delusional
Where did you answer my argument? Wait, is this your best answer as a strategy? How pathetic you are.
Did you forget Bush's letter that after disengagement (transfer to the Jews) the Americans will recognize the settlement blocs? The same letter that the Americans now deny... and what about the promise to finance disengagement (transfer to the Jews)? And the promise in Oslo of autonomy only for the Arabs? And did you forget the promise before 67 to prevent blocking the Straits of Tiran? Do you still believe in some promise from the world that after withdrawal and transfer the Jews will have no further demands?
You are a liar or a fool or both.
...and I forgot Haim. The one that says a lot and says nothing
wrong,
I don't care who withdraws, the main thing is that they withdraw. Pay attention to the deep contradiction in your words: in my opinion, right-wing people are the only ones who understand something, so listen to them. The right understands something the left does not.
The term "right" interests me to the extreme. Actions torture me and the actions of the people you mentioned were acts of withdrawal and if it can be assumed that not only according to my method they understand something but also according to your method, and to you the "those who understand" also withdrew. More the better.
You are also wrong as to the reason why the territories were not annexed. The reason why the territories were not annexed by Etia is any unwillingness to rule in a foreign nation, where did you get that from? We control a foreign people to the level of the kind of spaghetti they get. Did you land today from Mars??? delusional What are you smoking over there on the right??? The settlers also have no problem controlling the mother-mother of the Palestinians because morality died with them a long time ago. The only reason why we do not annex the territories is because we are afraid of the Americans and the Europeans. This. We understand that if we take this step, the Americans and Europeans will throw us to the dogs and Bibi, since he knows math and knows how much an army costs, knows that when that happens, it's the end of the country. This is the reason why in 2013 he prevented the annexation of the territories (Miri Regev's bill). I must again point out that the reason you stated is so ridiculous and factually incorrect (a large number of Likud ministers supported the proposal) that it demonstrates to me that you are also living in a movie and illusions. You are living in an alternate reality.
In your virtual reality, this is your territory from a sovereign-national point of view, but in reality, without the mirrors, territory is yours when you enact a law annexing the territory. Meanwhile the area is not yours. did not annex him. Israeli law does not apply to him. I understand that citizenship studies are from you but you are hungry, can you stop lying?
Your alternate reality allows you to think that the strategy of waiting and wasting makes sense. This is the most lame, pathetic, defeatist strategy I have ever seen. You don't have a solution, so you hope that if enough time passes, things will move in your direction. Maybe people from Mars will also land? Maybe. You just don't live in this world. You don't read the map and it clearly says that we are losing. Time works against us. In fact, we are a binational country with an Arab majority. Tell me, is the marking of the products by the Europeans a positive sign that your strategy is working?
What's going on over there on the right? what do you smoke What reality do you live in??? One tells me that the left carried out the disengagement, one tells about Machiavelli, one talks to me about MPM and Eshkol and the best solution I've heard is to wait. delusional ridiculous. wretched.
Wondering
I will add a few things to your words:
1. What is happening in the Middle East is salting everything in everything.
2. Syria. Iraq and even Lebanon no longer exist. These are countries without history. There is no Syrian people just as there is no Iraqi people and certainly no Palestinian people. These countries are a product of the Sykes-Picot Agreements and in my estimation, from a historical perspective, ethnic and religious groups are looking for their territorial definition. Within 10 years, new countries will rise here. It is possible that this process will also happen in Saudi Arabia and Jordan. I am ready to dare and predict that the Arabs of the country will also leave us. You really need a lot of patience here. A serious problem that we have is that we do not have like-minded people in the political and military fields. For example, we lack people at the level of Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Hobbes, John Locke, Tocqueville and more. I will throw you a challenge. Since you say a lot of good things and also a broad historical view, try (and I mean this seriously) to step into the shoes of one of these opinion thinkers and develop a new political or military idea or some kind of historical view with your own original approach, something that will be included in the history and political science curriculum.
Hello Shmulik,
I read a considerable part of your words and it is obvious that it is in your soul, a lot of energy and inner conviction are reflected in your words.
Unfortunately, with all your inner conviction, you only partially analyze reality correctly and come to mostly wrong conclusions
The main things that are the basis of our struggle for our country.
In answer to your question, what is the right's strategy, here is the answer: waiting and exhaustion. Note that in your opinion only right-wing people made big moves here or avoided them (Begin, Sharon, Bibi...agreements with Egypt, not withdrawing from the Golan, withdrawing from Gaza) and maybe this fact should wake you up because maybe they are the ones who really understand what is going on here.
We are waiting for the nationalism of the Arab world to disintegrate, as is happening around us, and everyone will understand that a "Palestinian state" is one big piece of nonsense, and that in principle the demand for such a state is a form of deception, seeking to tear another piece of land from the tiny Land of Israel, according to the Salami method, and not really create a state for the people. Invented", but another district for radical Islam
And a madman, who wants all the Mazat'at.
So why haven't Judea and Samaria really been annexed until now? Because even though this land, in its entirety, belongs to the people of Israel in terms of national sovereignty, it is clear to most people on the right that we are forced to compromise and transfer parts of it to another Arab government because we do not want to rule another nation (Arab, not Palestinian!), if and when a constellation is formed that will allow us to pay as little as possible ( .... !) and close a deal with someone stable you can trust.
So now that you understand what is really behind things, roll back all the facts you mentioned, and join the sane people of the right who are acting wisely and strategically, with a lot of wind in their sails and patience, so that we can have this country
For our children and our children's children with maximum security and stability.
Shabbat Shalom.
To all right-wing scholars,
Let's turn the tables and ask: you have been in power for generations. You didn't annex the territories, because you are zero and yet, what is your strategy? Where do you see Israel in ten years? Where are you taking us?
God,
You talk about Machiavelli (which I read a long time ago) but don't realize that we really haven't won the war in a long time. We depend, for generations, on the USA, without which, we would not have won 73 and we would not have survived for a second. The USA owns the century, is the real winner and therefore dictates the events. In the meantime, they don't pressure us enough, but when a generation passes there, a new generation will arise that didn't know the Holocaust, didn't feel guilty, and grew up in universities whose campuses are full of students who hate us. This generation will rise to power and say to itself why I need this bastard. I have China on my mind so I stop having the conflict. Either we will be dwarfed to our true size or we will collapse to our true size and then beg to be let back. It would be to retreat or return to the Stone Age. That's where you are dragging us. You and Hamas
God
It doesn't seem to me that champagne would sing a song by Jabotinsky... 🙂
God,
Again a small, stupid and irrelevant word hash. It's clear, because you owe in the past: Mapai, Eshkol, Golda. I didn't know them, I'm younger but you're stuck there. Your nick is also stuck in the past. God is becoming more and more a fad in the western countries and in another generation or two he will no longer exist. The longing for the past is what really unites you and Hamas: you both want to return to the past, to the suits and the rule of the rabbis. We will not give you
Miracles
MPAM also made use of this song. MPAM people at that time had a strong national orientation. On social and economic issues, they were distinctly left-wing. On security issues they were right wing. The historical research shows that people of the extreme right and people of the extreme left in terms of national identity are in the same place. Both these and these are nationalists. Today the people of the left on economic and social issues have a liberal and even capitalist view in some. Their leftist approach is on security issues. To illustrate the situation, I will give an example from a not so distant time. When their talks with the Syrians regarding the Golan Heights took place, they sided with the return of the Golan to the Syrians. There has never been such a thing in history that a country that loses a war dictates the conditions for peace. Macibali, Macibali taught them some political wisdom.
God
This is a song by Betar, written by Jabotinsky...
Shmulik
This is what you say from the height of your years (I understand you are close to 70) you sound very pathetic. in the 30s
In MPM they said two banks to the Jordan, this one is ours and that one as well. You belong to those who say two banks to Yarkon. It's ours and that too. Go back to the Lord. She is eagerly waiting for you
Shmulik
This is what you say from the height of your years (I understand you are close to 70) you sound very pathetic. in the 30s
In MPM they said two banks to the Jordan, this one is ours and that one as well. You belong to those who say two banks to Yarkon. It's ours and that too. Go back to the Lord. She is eagerly waiting for you
hypocrisy,
Do you admit that the secession was carried out by Sharon and the Likud and Bibi voted for it several times? I wonder if you at least internalized it.
I realised. We are done with the lies in the form of the claim that the left carried out the secession (at least we went through that) and now you are afraid of the refugee problem because you understand that it will change the character of the State of Israel from a democratic state with a Jewish majority to an Arab state. Makes sense.
You are not *KOL* that there are many more Palestinians in the territories than refugees and if you annex the territory this is exactly what will happen and if you continue with the military regime and the occupation we are apartheid and they will automatically throw us up in every possible forum????
Amazing. What shallow thinking and inability to make a simple projection.
I also have a principled answer regarding the refugees: Bush's letter to Tzipi Livni. did you hear about that??? The return of the refugees will only be to the Palestinian state. There is no return to Israel except in a minimal amount. nothing. Nobody wants them back here, why? Because we just want to keep the State of Israel as a democratic state with a Jewish majority and I've written that a million times. Why are you destroying the State of Israel?
God,
rightist,
But he wanted there to be a disengagement, because it happened, so maybe not?
Another jumble of nonsense, pointless, pointless and a general eye-opening statement. Adequate representation of the right, lacking the strategy.
Don't you understand the big picture? Don't you understand that the future of the Zionist movement and the State of Israel as a democratic state is at stake? Are you talking about terrorism and killings? When we were sitting in Gaza, more soldiers and settlers died for us than after the disengagement, including the wretched Eitan Cliff. Exactly the same with Lebanon. We saved hundreds of lives because of the retreat. Do you want to return to Lebanon too?
The withdrawals have only done us good, in the general picture, and the withdrawal from the territories is critical to the continued existence of the State of Israel. You prefer the country to be binational and not democratic. Hamas company. despicable.
Shmulik
We broke away from the Gaza Strip and what did we get in return? Kasamis, Pzmerim and tunnels. Agreements were signed with the Palestinian Authority and there were the first and second intifadas. When Arafat first came to the Gaza Strip, he brought crates of ammunition by helicopter. About this you can say "eyes to them and they will not see" and believe me as soon as you open your eyes you will be more radical than me.
Shmulik, the world may (currently) accept Israel within the borders of the Green Line but also demands the right of return to the Green Line.
So how will we be a majority here in that case? And if there will be sanctions if we do not agree to the right of return? After all, you say that the world is the landlord here... what is your intellectual answer to that?
God,
mighty,
what do you want from my life Where did you write something with content?
You also don't understand that they have nothing to lose? That time plays in their favor? They are already a religious, fascist, misogynistic, misogynist/homosexual dictatorship and whatever you want with crazy unemployment and hopelessness. They exist from nothing and they are only. Waiting for the end of the world. We are not there yet. If we don't break away from them, we will become them. We are on our way there. What is not understood here?
Moses
You should know that this quote - "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" - was not said by Einstein (or actually about any person to whom it is actually attributed) so not only is it not true about quanta as Shmulik wrote, It's just not right at all in the context you tried to put it in.
And yes, it's amazing, but Wikiquote is allowed to insert wrong/fake/made-up quotes.
Shmulik
A bit of history. Immediately after the Six Day War, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol and Foreign Minister Abba Evan came and said they were waiting for a phone call from the Arab countries to start peace talks. The conditions for peace are dictated by the one who wins wars. This has been the case throughout history and for this mistake we have paid and are still paying a price and it is very heavy. Go learn state wisdom from Makibali. will not harm. I both studied it and read it. Read his book "The Prince". Today it's called Real Political.
Moshe,
So it seems to you that the level of my comments is at the level of Ynet. Good for you.
I am not caught as a hypocrite, but he is really lying. to us and to himself. He began by claiming that the left carried out the secession. After I corrected him that Sharon of the Likud did it, he claimed that Kadima did it and after I corrected him again, including the fact that Bibi voted several times in favor of secession, he claimed that the left bent its hand. You continue on your path because you claim that although Sharon and Olmert are from the right, because what can you do, they are from the right but you claim that this is the system of the left. What do you people of the right have? What are you smoking there? What's going through your mind? What a leftist method and what a plaster. If the representatives of the right sign a withdrawal, this is the way of the right. What to do, it's a democracy. In any case, the first to return territories was Begin. Is he also from the left? What are you talking about? What needs to happen for you to understand: the right is strong in talk, but then when it comes to action, you discover that things you see from here, you don't see from there. Where you stand depends on where you sit. The only territories the left returned was in the peace agreement with Jordan, then Rabin changed territories. So I ask again: which left-wing method and which plaster??? Enough work on yourself. It's just embarrassing. The return of the territories is not a method of the left, it is the reality. Reality has the ability to force governments to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the wrong things. We are now in a right-wing nightmare where we are doing all the wrong things: destroying the State of Israel in order to establish the State of Israel, which will have an Arab majority.
Again, regarding Einstein's quote: what to do, reality is more complex than a nice quote and it is also not true when it comes to quantum mechanics. If you want us to argue about this as well, then I will tell you that although the experiment looks the same, it is not. He is different. People are different, situations are different. Also, I must say, I am very satisfied with the withdrawal from the territories and also from Lebanon. They will multiply up to the green line. So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm really not bothered if the result will be similar because we are already attacked once every two years from Gaza. Perhaps if we retreat to agreed limits, our reaction will not be bound. Have you ever thought about that??? By the way, you are welcome to return to Lebanon or Gaza, just leave my children alone.
How many times do I have to explain: I am not interested in what the Palestinians will say after we reach agreed borders on the world. I want a withdrawal to preserve a democratic state and a Jewish majority. I want a retreat for my people. What you are striving for is the same as what Hamas wants: one state with an Arab majority. It's just ridiculous.
For the millionth time: there is absolutely no ability for any nation in the world to justify its existence. They were all created by force and Israel is no different from any other nation. Setting boundaries is always a violent matter. In our case, we received approval from the world and that's enough for me. You don't, but I do. Since we received approval, it is absolute and irrevocable. I have self-confidence and I don't have to doubt myself anymore. Of course, I completely disagree with you about "give it time": in a dream at night, the world will not allow us to continue to settle in the territories. The Europeans mark products now because of you. Because of you the economy will be damaged and you will know what the next step was, a boycott of all products coming from Israel? Severing scientific ties? What damage are you causing? I don't want that to happen either because if somehow this madness continues, we will cease to be a majority here. This is the worst solution imaginable. What is not understood here?
Say, are you ready to stop talking in passwords? Daesh (not Daesh) sat on fences? You're really scared, aren't you? Do you think it matters if it is Hamas or ISIS? What, the IDF won't be able to? really? In a specific way, Hamas is an enemy of ISIS but in any case, Hamas is much more dangerous than ISIS because Hamas is not just a terrorist organization or not just a terrorist organization and it is a big mistake to think of it as such. It is part of the fabric of life in Gaza and therefore receives support from the public (partly forced, of course, they are crazy dictators) and therefore much more dangerous. The problem is when Bibi, when he had the opportunity, failed miserably in landing a decisive blow on Hamas. shame.
In the meantime, you live here, in complete dominion, thanks to American money and weapons. I wish for the day when the Americans stop giving us money and weapons and then we will be dwarfed to our true size and then the choice will be clear: either return to the Stone Age or choose the right solution, which is a solution based on the Green Line with an exchange of territories because this is the only solution that will allow us to exist as a democratic country with a Jewish majority.
Shmulik, I tried to hold back, but I have to tell you that your texts are more suitable for Ynet talkbackists than for a comment on a high-level website. If we wanted to hear such formulations we would look for them elsewhere. I understand that the situation frustrates you to the core, but let's face it, you are in a situation similar to what the right was in during Oslo - seeing how the country is being destroyed before his eyes and he doesn't have much to do.
You are also a little (a lot) stuck on whether Nostradamus lied or not. Many times in the heat of the moment you say inaccurate things, it happens. let go
As a matter of fact, to say that Sharon was from Likud or Olmert is a bit crooked. It is true that they were elected in these frameworks and acted in them for a long time, but they absolutely did not act in the spirit of the Likud (or of the right in general) and basically deceived their voters. Sharon created Kadima so that he could do as he pleased there, including secession, and not be committed to the way of the Likud. Reality proves that when Kadima's raison d'être ended, after a short while the party collapsed. If she really had a way, she could have continued to sell it. In short, it is absolutely impossible to define Sharon during the disengagement period as "right-wing" and you know what? Not even a Democrat.
This mainly reinforces the feeling (and I emphasize, the feeling) that the left carried out these actions. Although the executors came from the right, but the method is completely left. You have to be very naive (or worse) to say that if there is a right-wing government, then the government is also right-wing (according to the High Court of Justice, and all the other factors that were not democratically elected and are completely independent of the government). And even more frustrating is that until there are people of Sharon's stature who understood (and how did they understand - the "Father of the Settlements" - much more than any settler) the existential need for our Yeshiva in Yesh, we are weakened to receive credit from the "right side" (at best). It's a bit bizarre to think how far the concept of abandoning one's homeland has deteriorated, that in order to absolve oneself of criminal suspicions, a person has to pull out this concept in the hope that this change will get him out of the mud (Olmert and Sharon).
"He who repeats the same experiment and expects a different result is called a scientist" - maybe you want to teach a real scientist? To be honest, he was a bit harsher - "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" (Wikiquote). No need to say the opposite. Say it's not the case but don't just contradict.
"Never before, no one talked to us about more than that and in fact in Oslo the Palestinians gave up something beyond 48. Why do I have to keep explaining this?" It's very simple. We know this explanation very well, we simply do not believe it, especially in light of the fact that there are quite a few other parties who are definitely talking about 48. Don't listen to what they say in English, listen to what they say in Arabic. 67 is only an intermediate station (how many times will I have to explain it). http://news.walla.co.il/item/1825907.
And let's say that Abu Mazen is trustworthy, do you really think that if Abu Mazen signs an agreement on the borders of 67, Hamas will "flow with him". What does it mean to sign with him? Let him say thanks that Hamas has not yet been resolved from him after his "concessions" regarding the return.
"The problem that in 67, we got an appetite" has nothing to do with appetite. We went to war because we had to, there is no doubt about that. The entry into Judea and Samaria came as a consequence. Was this appetite "invented" in 67? What about all the territories conquered in the war of liberation? (https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%95%D7%AA#.D7.AA.D7.95.D7.A6.D7.90.D7.95.D7.AA_.D7.94.D7.9E.D7.9C.D7.97.D7.9E.D7.94).
Now ask why are you going back to 48 again?! To show you that the problem as you present it is not the occupation in 67 (if it can be called an occupation) but why the world agrees or not. Fact is, you get the conquest of 48 because the world did and 67 didn't. In other words, if we had succeeded in "convincing the world" to choose another solution, you would have accepted it. As I said in the previous message, give it time, it will come. Although this is a longer solution, it is certainly more correct for the State of Israel.
You keep saying that the right has no solution. That Palestinian extremist organizations and worse, Daesh, sit on your tail at distances shorter than 20 km from the "heart of the heart" of an Israeli state is this a solution?! Stop saying that the right has no solution, as if the left has one. The difference is that your "solution" is suicide for the country and the right's solution is difficult to digest at the moment, but at least it is healthier. And you know what? Healthier for all parties. Ask Palestinians (and I asked) under which government they would prefer to live..
hypocrisy,
The left did not in any way force Eric Sharon to do anything. It's all his.
The left did not force Netanyahu to vote, several times, in favor of disengagement. Nor Sylvan Shalom. You just can't accept your camp nonsense so you lie. I feel sorry for you. It's wretched and despicable.
Someone who repeats the same experiment and expects a different result is called a scientist. Try talking to a physicist about quantum mechanics and tell him that the result of an experiment must always lead to the same result and he will laugh in your face.
In any case, my argument stands:
You are a member of Hamas and you both want a binational, wretched, isolated, racist state with an Arab majority.
Hallucinatory and despicable.
The left forced the Likud with the help of global pressure and the legal and media junta.
You know what they say about someone who gets the same results in identical experiments and thinks that the next time the result will be different?
Shakranmus,
First, thank you for lying, that the Likud was the one who carried out the disengagement and that Netanyahu repeatedly voted in favor and not Kadima or the left as you claimed.
Secondly, the rest of the nonsense you wrote is nonsense and does not answer my argument at all, because you have no answer. Lee, I have a very simple answer for you: all the agreements we have ever signed talk about borders based on 67, the non-return of refugees (why? So that we remain a Jewish majority, despite your opposition) and a solution to the holy places in the United States. No one ever talked to us about more than that and in fact in Oslo the Palestinians gave up something beyond 48. Why do I have to keep explaining this?
Thank you for lying and being wrong. Thank you that your leadership is dragging us into a racist, discriminatory, religious messianic binational state, and you, love it.
Shmulik the demagogue, who told you that the world will be satisfied with the borders of 67 and will not demand a right of return and/or independence for the Galilee and Negev? Even in the Oslo agreement, it was promised that limited autonomy would be the end of the verse, and then came the demands for independence. With the concessions the appetite only grows and each end of negotiations is a condition for the beginning of the next negotiation - this is the meaning of the phase plan!
And in any case, without a return Abbas will never sign and the Saudi initiative also requires a return.
Then you will get a binational state in any case, and the anti-Semitic world will always find reasons to sanction the Jews and a reason to blame Jews for all their ills.
Read the book 'Capture a Jew'
Haim,
As Eitan pointed out, everything you wrote is quite unnecessary and I did not find a single point of yours that referred to my claim that still stands:
If we do not separate from the Palestinians, very soon, we will become a confiscated and allocated apartheid state that will have an Arab majority and that will be the end of the Zionist enterprise. You are destroying the Zionist enterprise and erasing its democratic and liberal achievements.
Shakranmus,
You're just a liar and that's one of the most despicable traits there is.
The disengagement was carried out in 2005
https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/תוכנית_ההתנתקות
Here is the government that served in 2005
https://www.knesset.gov.il/govt/heb/membynumber.asp?memshala=30
Sharon was there, Netanyahu was there, Sylvan Shalom was there. All the zeros were there.
Netanyahu voted in favor of disengagement, several times in fact.
http://m.ynet.co.il/Articles/4324330
As for your claim that Sharon was in the front and therefore on the left, that's another stupid rant. First of all, Kadima didn't exist when there was a disengagement, albeit a thin one, so it doesn't really matter
Secondly, the fact that they moved from a party to another party that they founded (and not to work, for example) does not mean that they have become leftist. They made their fortune in Likud and most of Kadima were Likud and Peres people. Sharon and Olmert are simply fed up with the scum in Likud.
back to you. The very fact that you are lying shows me that you are unable to deal with reality, in which the right returned the territories (Sharon), returned Hebron (Netanyahu) and returned Sinai (Begin) and therefore created an alternative reality for you, in which the left did everything, the main thing is that you will not have to face misery your camp
Strong,
I am not "against solutions that you perceive as left-wing". I oppose solutions that are not only impractical (due to all the concessions that Israel has agreed to over the years and have not been implemented, (including the Oslo, Camp David, etc.) agreements) they are also dangerous and irreversible.
"On the way you try to educate us" - did I try to convince what is the correct way of thinking? There was no attempt at persuasion here, I am stating a fact that this is how western culture is. If this is not true, answer the question. For example: "We, as people who live according to Western culture, have a lot of patience. We are ready for difficult and complex solutions and do not insist on everything here and now, even if it will take revenge on us in the future." Can you say such a thing? I thought not..
The solution in my view, which is not applicable at the moment, (just as Oslo was not applicable when it was conceived) is to annex the lands on which a Jewish settlement is located today, as well as the Palestinians who are there. This move really will not change the demography in the State of Israel.
The rest of the territory will be under the autonomous control of the Palestinians. Call it a demilitarized state or something else. It's not the pinnacle of their dreams, but then again, we won't give them the pinnacle of their dreams in any case (even according to all the other proposals, and be as generous as there is a point in the matter: the right of return).
And another thing, judging by the area, many Muslims have no inclination towards a "state" as we define it. Look at the Muslim "countries" next to us. Can you define them as countries? Egypt, Syria and more. This will also be the fate of the Palestinian state, the facts show it.
---
Shmulik,
Why don't you want to invest in the subject? In my eyes, and more importantly, in the eyes of the Palestinians, the issue is very important. And as a person who doesn't feel like investing, I appreciate the response you wrote anyway.
"Because of our insistence on 67, the Arabs certainly also remember Jaffa" - remember? do you really think Did you talk to them that you think they forgot Jaffa? did you watch Remind you what a mess they made for Abu Mazen when he said he didn't want to return to Safed at all? I think you're insulting them a bit when you say they forgot.
"I am no more righteous than the Pope. In Oslo they agreed to the 67 borders so what do I have to give more. "Oslo is not the end of the verse and was not supposed to be the end of the verse. And besides, as you can see, they did not intend nor implement Oslo either. Why? Because it's not enough for them, it's just a point in the middle.
By the way, in your opinion, what does it matter what they agreed to? If we conquered territories and conquering territories is cursed, we have to return them anyway even if they didn't ask. Does a person return what he stole just because he was caught?
Which means, that you don't talk about the essence of the matter but only about the tactics, you are very attached to what they agreed to and what they didn't. Regardless of the level of reliability of the consents on their part, consents can be changed. I mean, from your point of view, if someone manages to get them to agree to other things, that will be fine. Ok, working on it.
"The Cursed Areas" - do you want to elaborate? What is cursed about them? The one we are fighting for? Didn't we fight on completely different territories before 67? So because we fight over certain territories they become cursed?!
"While there is no Israeli consensus on the territories" there was no Israeli consensus on the sacred Oslo agreements either. On the contrary, outside the consensus is a very fine definition, maybe more of a criminal offense, if you don't understand what I'm talking about, look into the field. (If so, then great). What started as a delusional idea both in the eyes of Israelis and in the eyes of many people in the world, became a consensus. Consensus vary. According to the (faltering) European Union and the issue of security/refugees, etc., which should not only be a consensus but an actual agreement.
"We will have no problem reacting in the harshest way and no one in the world will be able to stop us, other than the insults in which we acted on a solid cliff" Do you really think that the world will not be able to stop us.. Where did I hear this sentence? Ahh.. by disconnecting.. that was also Eric Sharon's excuse. The world is not interested in justice, they are interested in the whining of the Palestinians, (at best, and anti-Semitism at worst,) and as long as they don't calm down neither does the world, no matter how much muscle you show. It is hard for me to believe that you are not frustrated by the crazy hypocrisy that the world practices in Israel in relation to other "occupying" places, which greatly undermines the claim of European "justice".
By the way, many of the sentences you said (Shmulik and Ethan) were said, I hope, innocently. You treat the Palestinian side, and to be more general, the Islamic culture, norms, aspirations and values as you treat your own. Well, that's a serious mistake. As time passes and the "spirits of Islam" grow stronger all over the world, it only proves more and more how great the gap between the West and Islam is. As much as they are not only against Israel or France, or the United States but against the whole world that is not them. And it doesn't even matter if we make an agreement with one or another moderate party (I wish there was one in power), Daesh / al-Qaeda / another lie will come and tear these agreements to pieces. "Can't be" you say? If today, now, we sign an agreement with Abu Mazen, with hand on heart, will Hamas and all the other guys respect it? And will Hamas, Iran and its successors respect him? And don't ask what the connection is between Iran and terrorists.
Nostradamus
The proposals you offer are short-term actions (and not democratic if such trifles are of interest to you).
Also, you seem to be quite ignorant of state laws as many of your suggestions are already enshrined in law.
1. Arab and Jewish MKs alike declare their allegiance in an act called the oath of Knesset members.
(For the most part, those who oppose the wording of the declaration of loyalty are ultra-Orthodox members of the Knesset for whom a declaration of loyalty to the state does not sit well with their beliefs)
2. In the USA and France there is no official language that is recognized by law. Also, official documents are also translated into Spanish in the US.
Are you suggesting that people who were born in this country and are citizens with equal rights should be banned from using their mother tongue?
Should the use of English, Russian, French and Amharic be banned on the road?
3. Military service in Israel is mandatory only for secular Jewish males and females or males wearing a knitted cap. The rest have an almost automatic exemption.
Are you suggesting that we provide the Arab minority living in Israel with weapons to go home with on the weekends?
4. It is not clear to me where you get the figure about thousands of murdered people that "the delusional way of the left" caused.
Since the establishment of the state, the number of those murdered in terrorist acts is less than 3000. About a third of them, since the beginning of the second intifada.
Every dead person is a whole world and it is our duty to make sure that the perpetrators of terrorism are eliminated or neutralized, but your imagination of thousands of dead people is only intended to demonize what you identify as the left (I will remind you that the right is in power for almost a generation).
5. I remind you again that you seem incapable of making concrete proposals without devolving into accusations.
Here's an exercise in reading comprehension: propose a road map for Israel's foreign security issues without accusations.
A person who is unable to offer suggestions without accusations from others probably doesn't have much to offer.
Strong
I say my words out of historical recognition of the place, things that only a few know and I hope you are among them.
Shmulik
A war that would have broken out in the past and it doesn't matter if it took place in 1966 or 1968. The country's borders invited war. As one of the settlement's veterans, you will imagine the limits of the armistice and understand why. It is not suitable for you to be of Zehbel'a Galon's image. From the height of your years, you should have already changed a diskette
To Eitan, again: I suggest to begin by telling the truth and not delusional reasons of security that the world will never accept: there is no occupation! This is our country! Terrorists will be executed and their family will be deported to Gaza! Inciting imams will be expelled! Abolish the Arabic language as an official language, here it is the state of the Hebrews and everyone will speak Hebrew! (as in the USA, France...). Military service is mandatory for Arabs, otherwise citizenship is revoked! Arab MKs will declare loyalty or they won't be MKs! Autonomy for the Arabs in Area A! (And maybe later a demilitarized country in Area A).
We tried the delusional way of the left and kidnapped thousands of murdered people, it's time to be realistic and supervise.
Olmert was in the lead and so was Sharon at the time of disengagement (ie the left). And Olmert was ready to give up the Kotel and still Abu Mazen refused.
Life
I'm considering taking my words back.
All you wrote was a short speech by the head of the XNUMXth grade decoration committee on the occasion of Independence Day and you ended (I think) with the fact that there are no "we're done" solutions.
No one claims that there are such solutions. It's hard to change people and it's even harder to change groups that operate on the lowest common denominator.
A solution will require a long and painful process. A sign of his success will be a cry from extremists on both sides for "surrender" "folding" in front of the other side. Unfortunately, extremists are often not satisfied with just shouting.
The problem of the right in the country is that apart from shouting against the center-left policy, they have no real policy.
It is not possible to run a country by shouting against the decisions of the other side and the right wing here has run (or is supposed to run) the country for close to a generation.
I repeat, what actions/roadmap/policies do you think should be implemented?
You are also allowed to say that you have no proposal for foreign/security policy.
Strong
Don't also forget that as a country we have existed for 67 years and if we take into account the increases a little over 100 years in historical terms very little. Processes in other countries last for hundreds of years and here everything is compressed into such a short period of time and we also went through the Holocaust and a series of wars. If we rise a little above the floor only 10 cm, it seems that we have reached many achievements. I wish others were like this. All this testifies to our resilience as a people and again a lot of patience and long-suffering. That's the name of the game "Zbang and we're done." Good for children's stories.
Strong
Don't also forget that as a country we have existed for 67 years and if we take into account the increases a little over 100 years in historical terms very little. Processes in other countries last for hundreds of years and here everything is compressed into such a short period of time and we also went through the Holocaust and a series of wars. If we rise a little above the floor only 10 cm, it seems that we have reached many achievements. I wish others were like this. All this testifies to our resilience as a people and again a lot of patience and long-suffering. That's the name of the game "Zbang and we're done." Good for children's stories.
Strong
Since the immigration to Israel began in the 20th century, there has always been friction with the local population. Remember the riots of 1939, nobody wanted us here, and it is the same today. Our problem is that we always apologize for defending ourselves and even existing. The first thing that needs to be done is to get rid of the policy of "sorry we won" and move to a very aggressive advocacy, even if no one will like it. This is our home. When the English were here, the only ones who received an identity card that said Palestinian were only the Jews. In the diaspora (I'm not religious, far from it) a handful of the land of the land is placed under the head of every Jew who dies, which indicates the close connection of Jews to the Land. The meaning is one and that is that after Auschwitz it is allowed to exterminate Jews. Trust me it won't hurt if we start wars. We will only benefit from it. You need a lot of patience and you need to understand that the price will be expensive. Jonathan Ratosh said about this, "In order to reach the top of the mountain, there must be a grave" an extremely difficult statement but what to do, we wanted and still want a state but it is not easy. I will bring you another very clever quote, albeit from Kabbalistic. The quote is from the words of Bismarck who said: "War is fought with gunpowder and not with public opinion" It is impossible to ignore the media, but it must be done in an informed manner and without any apologies. We pay too much anyway. When you fight against people whose hatred for us as Jews is abysmal and act like crazy, we have to be crazier. When our reactions will be unexpected and sometimes cruel, they will think twice at least before they dare to hurt us. For them the price will be too expensive. My intention in the most succinct way is that any response of ours will be disproportionate and will be remembered for generations. I leave the rest to your imagination. To get a sense of what is happening here, it is necessary and even mandatory to think in historical terms, not just from today to tomorrow
which objective??? What is the connection to objectivity???
I must point out that after reading what you wrote, you sound on the way to cognitive dissonance. Objectively, that is, if he had landed here from Adimai, he would have reached the correct result, because he was not "activating an emotion". People are used to thinking of themselves as sound, able to make a decision based on the facts. They will answer to be rational. Man from Mars. With you, on the other hand, the facts are not enough, because only with them, you lose. Objectivity should be enough, but here it is forbidden. Therefore, in the absence of objectivity, you feel that you deserve excess treatment, that there is something special about you that is outside the facts, that the Martian would not see, outside the statistics, that justifies the madness that is happening here. Objectivity can make you feel guilty because after all, you don't deserve anything and you know it. There is nothing special about you that allows you to rule a foreign nation for fifty years under military rule, without rights, call this group of people who were born here, died here and have been living for a long time, whatever you like. You don't want to feel guilty, so you remove objectivity from the equation and then shout again, how the world doesn't understand you. ridiculous.
The part with you on the right, that you lost control of yourselves. We established a country the way any nation has ever done it: by force and with a little persuasion and justification. We are, like all of them, and we have received approval (UN Shom). This. Ends. I don't feel guilty for the country that my ancestors founded and fought for (in the Hagana, in the Palmach, in the IDF). The problem is that in 67, we got an appetite and created a criminal enterprise that for fifty years enslaves us and the Palestinians and degrades us from a Western state to a Messianic nationalist religious state. Iran is Jewish and it's all your fault. It is not the occupation of the past that is your fault, but the blocking of any way to a solution, starting with Shamir and ending with Netanyahu, Rivlin and Bennett, and along the way they are degenerating us into terrible religiosity. You lost control. Every day someone is born more radical than the last (even Lieberman is already considered a kind of leftist), every day another lynches a Jew or an IDF soldier (because after all, it's hard to know who is an Arab and who is allowed to lynch), Netanyahu preaches against Arab citizens who go out to vote with the help of Left associations (pure racism, which for years we tried to explain to the world why it is terrible) and all in the name of the territories and Judaism. Horrible. What is ridiculous is to see you in their depths, unable to realize your criminal worldview. Although you have been in power for almost half a century, you did not dare to annex the territories because you are afraid of the Americans and Europeans. You need their money. You go down on Obama and then run to ask me for billions of dollars, as if they really owe us something because of their agreement with Iran, which Bibi failed to thwart. It's so miserable and embarrassing that I have no explanation except system madness and loss of control. I wish the Americans would refuse to transfer money to us. I wish Once they put a fist on the table and say: our money and defense (military and economic) or the territories. We will then see the lions from the right, that the spare parts for Nf 15 will stop arriving and the army and the economy will collapse within 10 minutes.
And just to clarify again: I want a democratic country with a Jewish majority (because that is the only nationality in the area with which there is any chance of democracy, although that is also already in doubt) because this is the only way my children will be able to learn Hebrew and evolution here in another 10 years. When will you pick it up, there on the illusory right? If we do not break away from the Palestinians, there will be no State of Israel. It will cease to exist in the form we know and will become a state of all rabbinia and mosques
What is the meaning of this?
Life
You sound more balanced to me than Nostradamus
What, then, is your subjective proposal for handling the security-political situation in which Israel finds itself?
Do you have a suggestion or action plan for the difficult times we are facing?
Just one request: that the proposal not be a manifesto about how others have gone wrong.
Strong
There was a wise Jew named Israel Eldad and I quote "as soon as we become objective we have lost". Think about it.
Nostradamus
You shout and cry about the exploits of the left, about the failure of Oslo, and about all those dark elements that rose up to take your country.
Did you perhaps think, between tears and cries, to offer some kind of practical proposal that would try to address the security situation in the country?
Is there anything in your comments that isn't crying over the lack of others?
I wrote happening several times instead of reading. Happens
First of all, it's Meretz and not Meretz.
Second thing, the one who happens to be from the message page of the Mashchaist rabbis is you, because the disengagement was done by Sharon, the founder of the Likud as the Prime Minister and the Likud as the ruling party. Netanyahu supported secession, this is a matter of fact: he voted for secession in the Knesset. You are coming from a message board where you were told to say a million times that the left conceived or carried out the secession and they will believe you but it will not work for you. The poor, pathetic, Epson-turned-right carried out the secession and did it in a lousy way. Sharon promised that if Gaza fired at us once, it would be a storm, but what happened next, everyone knows.
Third thing, there were no condemnations in the Second Lebanon War but on the contrary, it is also a matter of fact. Bush gave us two months to mow down Hezbollah, but the wretchedness of Olmert, who made most of his fortune in Likud, and Ya'alon, who left a miserable and broken army to fight, waged a miserable war. I remember the Americans were in the market that we are not able to do the job even though they gave us two whole months. Again, it's a matter of facts. Go read articles from the time and not Bennett's message page. By the way, this is the same Ya'alon whom you will recognize as security minister and also the same Bibi, the one from the vote for secession, who waged a miserable war against Hamas. Why didn't you let the IDF win? All of us, including the last of the leftists, wanted a crushing response against Hamas, and what did you do? They allowed the IDF to enter only 2 km into the area. You wretched wretch. The truth is that Bibi is right: although there were deaths, but not because of ground entry, although the whole country is silent, but it has nothing to do with Bibi, and so he can continue to shout that he is strong against Hamas, because Hamas is still alive, and you will believe the word of this miserable zero because you are miserable zeros .
My argument still stands: Oslo is the biggest growth engine we had and unilateral separation or an agreement with the Palestinians is the only thing that will guarantee a democratic state with a Jewish majority.
You are simply a member of Hamas and you both want the same thing: one country that will not be democratic.
Gostradamus
Your every word is spot on. More than right. The Galeon has a next generation. Based on the weight of Herzl's statement, it can be said that Yossi Sherid invented the Palestinian people on Basel Street.
If we don't stop apologizing and don't start claiming that this is our country (like in 48'), no retreat except for the blue line (the sea) will satisfy the world.
The way you suggest Israel would never have been established.
Shmulik, are you real? Do you really believe the mantras you spew or are you just reading from the Maretz slogans page? That's exactly what you said before disconnecting.
Don't you remember the harsh condemnations from the world and the tying of Israel's hands in the Lebanon War 2? To remind you, Lebanon is an independent country, with no siege and no occupied territory... (So why is there no peace with Lebanon?) This is exactly the understanding we will receive after the reaction to the first rockets from Ramallah on Tel Aviv and Israel.
Anti-Semitism never disappeared, it just hides its face behind anti-Zionism and anti-Israelism.
So enough of your experiments (Oslo and disengagement) every withdrawal only worsens our military, economic and political situation and sheds more and more Jewish blood. Did the peace force in Sinai prevent the introduction of an arsenal of weapons into Gaza? Did the UN force in Lebanon prevent Hezbollah from arming itself and its activity south of Litani? Do you believe that a foreign power will shed its blood for Jews?
How much more Jewish blood do you have to soak in order for you to realize that retreats don't work? And every such area becomes a terror base and a tightening stranglehold on Israel (the famous phased plan) and the encouragement of terrorism as evidence that violence works to bring about its goal of destroying Israel.
Moshe,
Regarding the end: I have several answers, but I don't really feel like putting effort into why not 48. The first answer is that because of our insistence on 67, the Arabs certainly also remember Jaffa, Acre, etc. A second answer is that I am no more righteous than the Pope. In Oslo they agreed to the 67 borders so what do I have to give more. A third answer is that borders 67 (the green line) is my home, and I will die defending it, unlike the cursed territories and while there is no Israeli consensus on the territories, there is on the green line.
Regarding the rest of your response, I did not find an answer to the question: what is the best way for us to remain a liberal democratic country with a Jewish majority. To me the answer is clear: unilateral separation or a peace agreement.
When we retreat to the borders that the world recognizes and a Jewish majority is established, if they attack us, morally, we will have no problem responding in the most harsh way and no one in the world will be able to stop us from doing so other than insulting us in which we acted on a solid cliff
The essence of the global situation and the responsible global Jewish left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqX3EGbBTM
Today, a Muslim examines how the attack affects him and not whether there is a deep moral failure, which is what it is,
That the real Vikoh will be a moral value based on the sanctity of life and not like it is today because it is not good for Muslims,
If it's the taxi driver in Tunisia who cries that his livelihood has been damaged or the hummus owner in Israel who cries that it's bad for business, etc.
The intention is that the reason not to harm is because it harms Muslims economically and socially, but there is no unequivocal and poignant statement here
of a moral black flag and not of Daesh, of a ban on murder of this type neither of Christians nor Buddhists nor of Jews nor of other Muslims whose version of Islam does not exactly match the version of the second Islam,
Perhaps the moral aspect of sanctity of life will rise to its rightful place among Muslims, so perhaps we will begin to see a change,
Then it will also be possible to accept a non-Muslim country in the Mazat and can make a tremendous contribution to all the peoples of the Mazat
If they were willing to accept the difference,
But it should start not only with the Muslims but also in the West, especially the European one
And part of us is waiting for the same factors in Europe
that divides terrorism into permitted and forbidden, if it is against Jews it is permitted, it becomes a war of moral liberation
Even if it is some grandmother who is stabbed in Tel Aviv, because it serves the purpose of subordinating Israel to the dominant European agenda,
Although the main motive is not liberation these are what is behind it
It is the same motif that erases all minorities in the Middle East and beyond among the Muslims for hundreds of years of harassment and elimination
Yes, we are the minority with an area of conscience that is in constant danger of existence,
Moses
So much words and again all you do is go against solutions you perceive as leftist.
Along the way you try to educate us about how Westerners think and how Arabs think.
It's probably not your intention, but the only thing you're doing is teaching us how you think.
Here's a thought exercise:
Without talking about other solutions and the conceptualization of them in your eyes, tell us what you think is a positive and applicable solution to the variety of security, social and geographical problems that the Jewish-Arab conflict poses to us.
Shmulik,
The fact that the right has no solution (let's say there isn't.. there is a solution, but like Oslo, it needs the people sitting in Zion and the world to digest it a little. The partial annexation, etc.) does not mean that we should jump on any solution, however dangerous it may be.
On the other hand, the fact that the left says it has a solution, does not mean that it really is a solution.
Maybe in the past it was more difficult to understand how a group of, I can't even call them people, would want to take over territory and more than that, would want to simply kill for the sake of killing. Today it is enough to say one word, and you probably know what it is. If from your point of view or from "Nun's" point of view, the solution is that in the very near future, Daesh will sit 5 minutes from Kfar Saba (and don't say it won't happen, it will happen so much), then I don't see it as a solution.
Western thinking (and I don't say this as an anthropologist) comes from the assumption that every problem has an immediate solution, we need to be smart/brave/strong enough to carry it out.
And again, the example is very simple. What is the solution to IS? France - a strong sovereign country with an army etc. cannot overcome a few terrorists with a few homemade guns and bombs. there is a solution? Maybe in the long run, stubbornly and persistently. Here too, the quick solution would be to kick all its forces out of Syria and maybe then Daesh will let it go. Should France do the calculation that it now has many more soldiers and civilians killed than if it had not fought in Syria? No, she doesn't need to because there are processes that are unrelated and independent of the number of casualties,
By the way, in Arab thinking there is much more patience for processes. Blood feuds that wait years. Of course we should not take the idea of blood revenge but the idea that solutions may take a very long time, steal a lot of resources, but they are the right solutions.
And a last question that really concerns me, (and the Arabs of Israel) that I have not yet heard an answer to, not sarcastically but to really understand. Why leave only the territories of 67? What is the difference between areas 67 and 48? Does the fact that we differentiate between them mean that the Palestinian aspirations also differentiate between them. If we return to the 67 borders, will the Palestinians give up the right of return? Will the Israeli Arabs move to Palestine? If not, there is quite a chance that we will face a binational state again.
Interesting article DA
Kick out all the muslims. What's so hard? There is a huge area in what used to be called Syria and Iraq.
Likud is a burden, all it sows is corruption, hatred, incitement and hysteria. Like a doctor as a metaphor who would shout in a hospital the viruses are pouring in, we are at war with the virus, we...and us (some nonsense nationalist demagoguery). Instead of just doing…
exactly
The peak was on a solid cliff. During the war, Bennett and Lieberman fought themselves to death against the government while sitting in the cabinet itself.
Delicious
Shmulik
Everyone knows that the right in Israel has no solutions. At most they know how to say it's not good and won't work and sit on their ass without doing anything and wait for the problems to be solved miraculously, then during the election period to scare the whole world and his wife and blame all their inaction on everyone who is "against them".
Noon,
Come on, let's start sovereignty. The right (I wanted to write to you but didn't want to hear "You don't know what I'm voting for even though it seems quite clear why you're voting)" in power for years. What do you think that the right will get off the podium and the talkbacks and start realizing something of its wretched worldview?
Two comments:
1. He should do this after he receives money-aid from the USA to finance the ultra-Orthodox and the occupation (say it there on the right, don't you have national pride? Isn't it time we give up this insulting aid?)
2. Ask Shamir why he failed the London agreement that would have transferred the territories to the Jordanians
There are quite a few people here who simply cannot read and there are those who cannot read without distorting.
Did I write or didn't I write that I don't want an Arab majority in the country that will inevitably lead to a racist and segregated apartheid state? How "smart" does one have to be to take my response, from which it is clear that I want a solid Jewish majority, and claim in my name that I want a binational state?
What should be done to prevent a country with an Arab majority from having to withdraw from the terrible territories under whose auspices everything passes, including exemption from service for leeches?
Oslo is the reason we have such an advanced country. Beyond the fact that it is the only solution to preventing a binational state with an Arab majority, Oslo is the reason there are international investments here. McDonald's and everything else only came in after Oslo. The withdrawal from Gaza, which Netanyahu supported with his vote in the Knesset, was excellent, and if we calculate the terrible and cold casualties, which includes Tzuk Eitan, there were still more casualties to our forces when we were in Gaza.
I still have not received an answer as to why the tigers of Nayir: Netanyahu, Bennett, Lieberman and Ya'alon did not let the IDF win on their rock.
I suggest by starting to tell the truth and not illusory security reasons: there is no occupation! This is our country! Terrorists will be executed and their family will be deported to Gaza! Inciting imams will be expelled! Abolish the Arabic language as an official language, here it is the state of the Hebrews and everyone will speak Hebrew! (as in the USA, France...). Military service is mandatory for Arabs, otherwise citizenship is revoked! Arab MKs will declare loyalty or they won't be MKs! Autonomy for the Arabs in Area A! (And maybe later a demilitarized country in Area A).
We tried the delusional way of the left and kidnapped thousands of murdered people, it's time to be realistic and supervise.
Nostradamus
Other than making childish accusations and hating everything that isn't you, what exactly are you suggesting?
Hating is easy and fun but does not really promote peace or security.
Grow up.
To Shmolik the tyrant, and what about the Arabs in Israel? Do you want a Judenrein Palestine and binational Israel? And what about Jordan with about 80% Palestinians? How many Palestinians do you need? Because Oslo and the disengagement were a phenomenal success..
Thank you that you really want the Jews out of here because they are colonialists.
Except that the Arabs themselves do not want an agreement without return.
Enough of your slogans and experiments, you all have foreign passports and neither Judaism nor Zionism nor Israel is of interest to you and in the first second you will fly to Europe.
So do the destroyed a favor, leave now and stop harming the people of Israel.
For the problem, what do you propose to do when the Israeli Arabs also want a state?
And yes, I see what demonization does, the demonization you do to the settlers, the justification of terrorism and their murder.
They bled at your hands, wicked sons of wicked men.
To Shmolik the tyrant, and what about the Arabs in Israel? Do you want a Judenrein Palestine and binational Israel? And what about Jordan with about 80% Palestinians? How many Palestinians do you need? Because Oslo and the disengagement were a phenomenal success..
Thank you that you really want the Jews out of here because they are colonialists.
Except that the Arabs themselves do not want an agreement without return.
Enough of your slogans and experiments, you all have foreign passports and neither Judaism nor Zionism nor Israel is of interest to you and in the first second you will fly to Europe.
Our territory once we assert full sovereignty.
So either they give everyone in the territories a blue card and then it is indeed our territory or we withdraw from the territory or we find a political solution with the Authority or any appointed body there (some kind of autonomy, etc., is also not going to happen in the near future).
In my opinion, the Palestinians put us in a trap here... Our only way out of this is to think creatively... In my opinion, simply initiate a new peace agreement in which Jordan will annex the territory of the Palestinian Authority (as it was supposed to be in the Madrid agreement, even if I'm not mistaken). This is a threat to the Palestinians, etc.
Did you translate with Google Translate? Poor translation.
Nostradamus, the left will not convert to extremist Muslims. As a Jew, you know how dangerous it is to demonize another. Extremists among us murdered a prime minister. Enough incitement and spreading lies and hatred!!
I also think it is better to break away from them, let them kill each other like in the other Islamic countries. Why should I worry about their economy, security, welfare, health?
I will take care of protecting myself
But my opinion is not decisive. What matters is the culture of discussion. All of us, the sane moderates, and it doesn't matter what nation, sect, gender, are in the same boat. How you treat me is what matters. And Nostradamus (and his ilk) offers no solution but only guilt and hatred, so please get off the boat.
More 2 points
The territory is not ours
What happened thanks to the excellent withdrawal from Gaza, happened because of the misery of the right-wing governments, including those that Bennett was there.
Stop being so miserable and then we'll start winning. I don't know why you don't let the IDF win. I really don't know
So what a beauty. We will get a country with an Arab majority.
We do not leave any areas for two reasons:
The main one - it's ours!!!
The secondary - so that what happened when we left Gaza would not happen.
Precisely because of what you wrote, I want us to leave the territories and block the possibility of a binational state
But the crazy left-wing West supports extremist Muslims (even though there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, Islam is an Islam that just waits to erupt when the situation is in its favor, Taqiyah) and supports the Islamist Erdogan from the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran from the terrorist power. And the West overthrows secular leaders (the Shah, Saddam, Gaddafi, Mubarak, Assad (Mansa)...). and supports Islamist Saudi Arabia, terrorist Qatar... and the lame Jordanian king.
So maybe the left is actually interested in Islamic failure and financial (petro-dollar) and technological and military dependence on the West?
It is a fact that the Muslim countries can only be calm with a dictatorship and Obama is trying to bring the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood to power in all Islamic countries.