If the Sikhs committed suicide in Masada, as appears from the descriptions of Yosef ben Matityahu, where did the hundreds of Sikhers emerge who tried to incite a rebellion among the Jews of Alexandria a few years later, and about whom Ben Matityahu also tells?
Is the mystery of the suicide in Masada cracked?!
The story of the suicide in Masada, in the year 73 AD, in the midst of the Roman siege and the beginning of the Herodian enclave, as recorded by Joseph ben Mattathias, was and still is a bone of contention among scholars - was it or was it not?!
The difficulty in shattering the suicide myth involves several factors, and the main one, although mythological and sentimental, and therefore will not hold water on the one hand, but strengthened by the national-nationalist ethos on the other hand, is the Zionist aspect. The Masada incident naturally fascinated the Zionist leadership and its words to prove the historical decline of the Jewish people, who seek to be a people and a nation, and to characterize the Junge Juden (Jewish youth) as a noble expression of the new Jew, the young-healthy-fresh, in contrast to the anti-Semitic nickname of the mob The Berliner - Judenjungen ("Jews").
In 1919, the poet Yitzhak Lamdan wrote the poem "Masada", which served as a sort of light and totum for the pioneers of the Third Aliyah, in the form of "Shove Masada will not fall". The Beitarim anthem "Tagher" is characterized by the two lines: "To die or conquer the mountain / Yodeft (in two sgolim), Masada Beitar", and "really" did not bother them, Beitarim, the fact that all three of these strongholds fell into the hands of the Romans. And in general, on the one hand, everyone tried to smear the scent of Josephus as a traitor and as a Roman collaborator, and on the other hand, they tended to hang their historiographical jewel on Masada's story, the work of that author. Indeed, pornography is already a question of geography.
The Zionist youth movements were activated to bring the trainees to Masada and tell there the history of the heroic system of the fanatics. In 1942, when there was a fear that the Nazi armies under the command of the "Desert Fox", Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, would invade British Palestine from Egypt, a kind of defense, fortification and perhaps even suicide system was planned in the Carmel area, and this was called the "Masada Plan".
Moreover, the IDF made sure to indoctrinate recruits on the top of the Masada and tourists were instructed to reach the audio-visual vision above that top. Indeed, a heavy, pro-partisan system was built, and still exists, around a myth on its part, and it repelled any attempt to crack the myth even a little.
Like Ben, under the auspices of Zionism, the Bengurionist Israeli government and the IDF (how could it not be?!), Professor-Chief of Staff Yigal Yedin set out to carry out the excavations at the Masada, and when everyone is led to find confirmation and corroboration for the myth, considering the self-fulfilling prophecy, he licks every archeological find and scrap And was crowned as a great spoil, and thereby closed the circle that supports the myth from Masada.
But May? A number of weighty factors helped and are helping to dispel the aforementioned myth:
First - there is no confirmation or corroboration for the story in Roman historiography, and the claim that the Romans refused to let their smell be crushed, because many Roman failures were recorded in their ancient historiography, including the great rebellion of 73-66 CE suppressed by the Romans and considered an impressive achievement even in the face of the difficult atmosphere that prevailed So throughout the Roman Empire following the death of Emperor Nero and the civil war between the four who claimed the imperial crown.
Second - there is no confirmation or confirmation of the great rebellion outside of Jerusalem in the literature of the Sages, which began to be written and started to be prepared, from the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple (70 AD), and one that did not even begin, which is simply amazing, blaming not only the fanatics ("gratuitous hatred") , but indirectly even God, who as if turned his face away from Zion. In this literature, which covers tens of thousands of pages, her side is not mentioned and certainly not the myth of suicide. You will say that the Torah and the Halacha strongly disapprove of acts of suicide (but what about "Kiddush Hashem"?!), however such an act, which is unprecedented by any standard, deserved reference in the literature written and compiled close to the events of the rebellion.
Thirdly - it is true that around Masada important details were uncovered that testify to the Roman siege such as the remains of the camps, the dyke, the battery ("the white rock" according to Joseph ben Matthew) and the stones of the catapults, but the main detail was missing and it was the remains of the thousand suicides - the warriors and their families. Many researchers and diggers asked to find the remains of the Sikri fanatics, Masada warriors. They turned over every possible stone many kilometers away and brought up clay in their hands. Even the remains of skulls and bones found by Prof. Yigal Yedin, which were published as an intoxicating and pompous international discovery, were proven to belong to Byzantine monks who settled in the place hundreds of years after the rebellion.
Fourthly - the items of the Roman siege - camps, battery and catapult stones, may support the assumption that a tactical exercise was held there in order not to leave the forces unoccupied, in terms of military policy "since then".
Fifth - the various items of equipment, including even the regular braids of a woman/girl, the dates on their flesh, the vandalism left by the settlers in the place, who were undoubtedly jealous, and more, they have nothing to indicate not only the size of the jealous public that found refuge in Masada, but also its tragic fate as written by Joseph ben Matthew. The ostracon found in one of Masada's caves, with the inscription "Ben Yair" ("Ben Yair" in the original), is meant to hint at the presence of the commander of the Sikri fanatics - Elazar ben Yair - but not about his fate, and by the way, why was only this ostracon found?!
Shashit - Elazar ben Yair gives a first speech to the fighters, in which he wants to encourage them to commit suicide, but in vain, the majority of the public opposed the aforementioned deadly move, and therefore he gave them another persuasive speech, the main of which is the immortality of the soul' and suddenly, "the desire seized them to kill their wives and sons and send a hand with their souls" (Jewish Wars, Book VII, 389), which seems surprising and exaggerated, and perhaps there is a closing of the circle between the repentance of Joseph ben Matthieu, five years before, when he was the commander of the rebellion in Galilee, to commit suicide in the fortress of Yodfat, and "their success" of Masada fighters. In any case, the desert took this secret into the cracks of its sands.
So much for the known theories, and from here on something new:
Seventh - and thus we will add here an interesting interpretative segment, which has not yet been brought to the research table. It is known that Jerusalem, before it was besieged, was the scene of a hard and cruel struggle between the leaders of the fanatical groups: between Yohanan of Gush Halab, Shimon bar Giura, Eleazar ben Shimon and Eleazar ben Yair - the commander of the murderous and tyrannical Sikyria, those called in the terminology of Joseph ben Matthew as "bandits" ("listai" and "archilistai" from the Greek), and "strangers of strife" ("atasiastai" from the Greek). Even Sage sources call them by the name "Biryonim". Their name comes from the "sika" - the short dagger they used to hide between the folds of their robes and thus eliminate their opponents. Their murderous lust was for nothing in the almost besieged and besieged Jerusalem.
The leader of these was Menachem, a tyrannical and power-hungry leader, who wanted to take control of all of Jerusalem and make it his dominion. It was a manipulator and opportunist who likened himself to the Messiah King and who was known for his unrestrained cruelty. Many of his supporters, his loyalists, were captured by Eleazar (the son of the high priest Hananiah, who was murdered by the same zealots) and his supporters and executed. This move resulted in the flight of the rest of the Sikris from Jerusalem, led by Elazar ben Yair, the rest of Menachem's body, towards Masada.
These easily took over the place and made it the expected focus of their confrontation with the Roman armies.
And in the meantime, "until the Romans came", the Sicris engaged in robbery and looting, and who did they rob? the Jews around. They raided Ein Gedi, harassed the Jews and even murdered 700 of them, including women, children and the elderly, and then looted and emptied their homes. The booty was transferred, of course to Masada. In this context, archeology did us a "great favor" by finding the remains of the slaughterers, the result of the murder of the Sikriites, in a mass grave in Ein Gedi, and apparently the Sikriites tried to collect sponsorship fees from the Jewish producers of persimmon perfume in Ein Gedi.
The Sikris were among a group that originated from the ideology known by Josephus - the "fourth philosophy" which was conceived and developed by Yehuda the Galilean (and perhaps the Golani), in connection with the year 6 CE, when the land of Judah became a Roman province. At the center of that ideology is the fanatical principle of controlling God's rule over the earth, and in the name of this ideal legitimacy was given to do almost everything, and indeed the Sikris were loyal disciples of this ultimate, total principle and ideal.
And from here we come to the punchline of the article in question. The story of the suicide of the Sikris and their families accompanies, as we know, the historical memory of the people of Israel. But was it really so? So far we have sought to dispel this myth, but an important stone is missing in order to complete the above-mentioned attachment (puzzle).
And what?
Yosef ben Matatiyo, right after the description of the suicide, tells the rest of the story as follows: "After the fort (Masada) was captured in this way, the Roman commander (Silva) stationed a garrison there and left with his troops for Caesarea, since there was no enemy (rebel) left in all the land that had been subdued. In the long war... Moreover, after these things, many Jews also died in Alexandria. Because, for those of the Sikri movement who managed to escape there, it was not enough that they were saved, (and they) (the Sikri) began revolutionary actions and tried to entice many of the Jews who hosted them in their homes to demand (by force) their freedom and not to think of the Romans as stronger than them and to see God alone as their masters. Because some intermarried people opposed them (they) killed them, and continued to push the Tories and call them to revolt. When the heads of the Council of Elders saw the madness... of the Sikriim... the gathered realized the magnitude of the danger... (and) with great fervor they attacked the Sikriim and tried to capture them. 600 people were immediately captured. It wasn't long before all those who fled to Egypt and the Egyptian Thebes (that is the city of Noa-Amun) were caught and brought back...every form of torture and physical abuse imaginable was used against them, for one purpose only: that they would admit with their mouths that the emperor was their master. And yet none of them gave in... all stubbornly kept their faith that did not yield to any coercion and endured torture and suffering, as if their bodies did not feel them and their souls even enjoyed them. But most of all, the spectators were amazed by the children of preschool age, because they were not able to force a single one of them to call Caesar Lord..." (Jewish Wars, Book VII, 419-407).
The Sikriim group therefore tried to provoke a rebellion in Egypt, a sort of continuation of the failed rebellion in Judea and resorted to methods similar to those it carried out in Jerusalem until the retreat to Masada and even against the Jews who lived near Masada. It is about a group of 600 people, perhaps excluding women and children. Where did they come from, since there are no more Sikris left in Jerusalem, but in Masada, and their number in Masada was close to 1000 people. The reaction of the adults and especially the children shows that these are families organized in one framework, literally as an ideological, mind-controlling cult for all intents and purposes, one that took shape at least in the short period of 4-5 years, since it withdrew from Jerusalem.
Wouldn't he be inclined to assume that it was about the Sikris in Masada, who at some point fled to Egypt, thereby erasing another vestige of the assumption that the Sikris committed suicide in Masada? They made their way to Egypt to add more fire to the pyre of rebellion. If it had been a small number of people, they would not have made any impression on the established and rooted Jewish community in Alexandria, and certainly not on the Romans. Yosef ben Mattheyahu tells immediately later that the Roman emperor Vespasian feared that the Sikri rebellion might spread and therefore ordered the destruction of the temple of Honio (the one built by the third or fourth Honio - the high priest from Jerusalem during the Hellenistic period, following the decrees of Antiochus), which might have been perceived as a rebellious center Or as one that could become a rebellious focus, after the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed (70 AD).
Immediately afterwards, Josephus tells of the madness of another Sikyra group, headed by Jonathan the weaver of Judah, a swindler and deceiver, who mentioned the magicians, ideologists, and false messiahs, who flourished in Judah on the eve of the great rebellion, and he "tempted quite a few from the door of the people to join to his. He led them through the desert and promised to show them signs and wonders" (The Wars of the Jews, Book VII, 438-437).
This event takes place in Cyrene, the Roman province that bordered western Egypt, now Libya, and from the mention of the name of Catullus, the Roman commissioner in the province in 74-73 CE, who suppressed Jonathan's attempted rebellion, by "whistleblowing" the Jewish dignitaries in Cyrene (similar to what happened in Egypt right at the same time) it is certainly possible to draw an equal conclusion between the two cases, between the two events.
The relatively large number of Jonathan and his faction will also be learned from the fact that Catullus sent cavalry and foot units against them, in order to capture and neutralize them. Likewise, Josephus tells that the Roman commissioner ordered to condemn to death 3000 (and perhaps only 1000 according to one of the manuscripts, and in any case it is a completely excessive number) people, who may have belonged to the rogue's faction, or at least seemingly seemed to support him.
Where did those sicarian fanatics come from? And again, considering their presence as a group in the Masada, and not beyond it, teaches that the story of suicide was not and was not created.
Moreover, more than thirty years later there would be a great Jewish rebellion against the Hellenistic leadership in Egypt and Kyrenia, which would turn into a general rebellion against the Romans. Behind this rebellion were, of course, the groups who portrayed, according to their own way, their faith (religious war) and their methods of activity (such as an attack in Kachanlit against the Hellenistic-Roman temples and even their tyrannical actions - according to Roman evidence, including relevant documents) as sectarianism. It is worth noting that at the end of this rebellion an attempt was made to renew the building of the temple in Jerusalem.
It is impossible for such rebellions in the Egyptian and Kyrenian centers to be planned, organized and come to fruition, without the Sikri infrastructure, the one that found the escape route from rebellious Judea, from the top of the fortress, at the end of the great rebellion, in Egypt and Kyrenia.
Assuming that the last section of my article has some truth in it, then it joins the points that support the approach that the myth of suicide was not and was not created.
More of the topic in Hayadan:
34 תגובות
The most amazing thing I've read in at least the last year.
And I read news on a daily basis.
There are so many holes in the honorable doctor's narrative that I want to try to plug them with a theory on the same level.
It really was.
Josephus was on his annual leave at the legion camp in the desert. He noticed that the legion was building special siege tools and a perimeter wall without any connection because the surveyors, of whom there were only 1000 at the time, 600 fled to Egypt and between 1000 and 3000 to Libya.
Then he came up with an idea to write a story about 1000 Jews who committed suicide, just for laughs.
He went up the western path that was created completely naturally, to the fort where he recorded the name of the leader of the Sikriim in Libya along with the rest of the Sikriim at that time.
The braid is also his, after all it is known that Josephus grew a braid to imitate Jesus.
Then he spent his time from 70 to 73 to make it look like people actually lived there (what an absurdity).
Then he wrote in his serious history book a story as if there was a siege against the Sikris and they killed themselves (just for laughs)
But the truth is that 600 of the Sikri somehow managed to escape from the besieged Masada (or from their Roman captors)
Then they arrived in Egypt, were captured and killed, and then all 3000 moved to Libya, where they were also captured and killed.
Because there was a great lack of zealous Jews in both Egypt and Libya at that time.
Within 50 years they also spread to Cyprus and reached hundreds of thousands, then they revolted together in the so-called Diaspora Revolt (which was really called the Sikri Revolt 2.0 at the time)
And then after they lost and got slaughtered.
They moved back to the Land of Israel and within 20 years they grew to hundreds of thousands (once again).
are led by the well-known Sikri leader Bar Kochba. They rebelled again in the Sikri Rebellion 3 Revenge of the Sikri.
(After the previous failures they rebranded and added a K to their name)
Then they lost again, only to wait 2000 years to return to their quarry and their usual nonsense (but that's a story for another day), and they lived happily ever after. The end
what do you say doctor
Did I do it well?
I know I don't even reach your ankles when it comes to getting things out of your navel, but I hope you can improve on my little theory.
Yours with love, someone with basic reading comprehension, and some critical thinking.
The writer is a radical Zionist leftist in radicals, so his "opinions" are known in advance.
In all the claims and counter-claims, one important fact was ignored: in Masada's synagogue were found both Samaritan scrolls and Issia scrolls, and hence the Jews who were on the Masada, contrary to Joseph ben Matthew's statements (which is usually accurate, but not always) were a collection of refugees from all shades of the political spectrum of Judah during the rebellion, and not necessarily Sikriim.
The most absurd thesis (I don't have enough knowledge about the various theories) is the claim that the entire Roman effort may have been a kind of "training" to keep the warriors busy. No army will invest huge resources in building an ash embankment that will serve as access to the upper part of the fort, the possibility of such a theory is zero.
A debunked theory.
As we know, there were quite a few groups of extremists, some of them fled and some of them fought to the death like in Masada.
As it is known to the people of Israel, it is of great importance to bury the dead, even to this day.
Another settlement called Beitar and its inhabitants were murdered, they were brought many years later for burial.
There is no finding that contradicts the idea that Jews later brought the deceased for burial.
And you don't provide any evidence that contradicts it either.
In short, an unfounded article that does not fit the science website.
Your claim that the remains of bones found in the southern cistern belong to Byzantine monks is unfounded! Just not true!
Remains of men and women were found!!! Hello, Byzantine nuns?
Carbon 14 testing and comparison of fiber remains from items of clothing unequivocally established an identity with fibers found in a cave in the northern Judean desert, where Sekidi Miriam was found. If yes, the remains of about 30 of my neighbors from the rebel side.
The rest were probably not thrown into the cave / waterhole, but from the top of the cliff into the stream, washed away in the first flood to the east and of course cannot be found
What "victory story" do you want to find in the Roman historiography on Masada? A perfect battle with about 7000 or 8000 fighters, "overcame" 900 plus rebels including women, children and the elderly? ridiculous.
I don't know if there was a suicide or not, but some of your assumptions are completely forced:
a) Did the Romans write about the suicide in Yodef for example? After all, for example, there are not many writings left in the Roman historiography about a much larger and successful revolt (which, admittedly, ended in a much greater disaster for Judaism) Bar Kochba, and where legions were destroyed, so if it was not written about, why would they write about Masada? Jerusalem was conquered by Titus, so of course he will glorify his name, but Masada? Why would they write about her?
b) You yourself say that the remains of the massacred were found in Ein Gedi, so how do you claim that there were no rebels in Masada? You are contradicting yourself. What's more, you mentioned the inscription that mentions the name of the Sikri commander and many other findings such as the fact that there was a Roman siege of Masada, so at least don't say that Masada was not mentioned in the Talmud doesn't mean there was a rebellion there. It is also worth remembering the attitude of the leaders of Judaism after the Bar Kochba revolt, who "changed a phase" and from the situation of rebels (3 huge revolts in 70 years) began to cooperate with the Roman government. All in all, the first to write the book of Sages was Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi (even if there is something Ken before him) and he was in close contact with the Romans. So let's conclude that it is clear to everyone that there was a rebellion in Masada.
c) If there was a rebellion in Masada, did everyone escape? We may not have found a thousand bones, but surely several people died on the mountain during the siege, either a natural death or as a result of the fighting. How come we didn't find their bodies? I would appreciate it if you could explain it. According to the amount of Roman investment in the battle and the siege and its length, surely people died there, even single people, where are they?
d) No one has proven that those who came to Egypt in the Diaspora revolt were actually Sikris and not other fanatics.
Therefore there are many holes in your theory. It is true that it is difficult to prove a mass suicide, and it is true that there is a strange and disturbing similarity to the story of the suicide in Yodef, but the similarity can be easily explained, and the fact is that there was no doubt that there was a siege, and the reason that there are no bodies there does not prove anything. It could have been a suicide, pretty sure many were killed there, but none of your claims are sufficiently substantiated beyond conjecture to prove that there is no truth to the story.
And here is another possibility, a little less far-fetched than a mass flight to Egypt
Perhaps the number of fighters there was very few, like the "force of Tsavika"
One man in front of the Syrian tanks in 73
It is possible that the Roman soldiers told Josephus about a larger number of warriors
to justify the damage the Sikriks have done to the environment
And the great siege on such a small amount of people would certainly have embarrassed them
The chance that 900 people managed to escape the siege of the Romans is zero
You know that the helicopters are from 1969 🙂
Regarding not finding their graves..
After all, they only started looking for it in the 19th century...
They may have been given a last favor by Jews
The Byzantines may have buried their remains
Much more reasonable solutions
also
The Sikris were hot-headed and fanatics who did not hesitate to murder
known
Greetings
You must not contradict or support the mass suicide
1. Only 28 bodies were found by the researchers - indeed,
But this is after over 1500 years.
The Byzantines may have buried them...
They may have been secretly buried first by Jews who came to the place
Especially in order to do them a favor..
The pots of destinies were found.
And Josephus also relied on the testimonies of soldiers who arrived in Rome
So the Romans definitely thought they had committed suicide.
2. They were not captured by the Romans according to all the available evidence
3. Such a successful escape from the Roman siege on them by about 900 people
A miracle is needed
4. Sikariks did come to Egypt, but there is no evidence that they were in Masada before.
That is, your hypothesis is also not in the reasonable realm
5. The Sikris were not nice people, we got it. :)
By the way, the Pharisees also really had reservations about them.
Dr. Yachiam Boker Tov:
We lack an article in history to continue the week. Said honestly and not as a sting.
So please write an article.
Yosef
"Pious secularism is a religion no less respectable than religions." Pious secularism is not a religion. It may be faith, but everything is faith. And in my personal opinion - this is a much more "respectable" belief than a religion, because behind this belief there is a lot of thought and a lot of courage.
Anonymous is me.
It is not a historical book but with a strong historical foundation and says a lot. For example David: the Tel-Dan tombstone and the Misha tombstone - an extra-biblical reference. For example Jeremiah. Seal of the brother of Baruch ben Naria from a family of high officials - a guy who is Jeremiah's main student and according to tradition writes the book of Jeremiah, and also writes Baruch's prophecies - an external book that Christians include in the Old Testament, an extra-biblical view of Jeremiah. And Ahab's stables at Tel Megiddo, and so on endless testimonies.
There are misunderstandings about the dating, there is no unambiguity.
Regarding the sanctification of Hashem, at least today the goal is not a sacrifice to God, maybe in the past it was. It is acceptance with the end of life, believing that they are sacrificed for the sake of the rest, or for the sake of an abstract idea that has no way to prove it but faith. The idea is also valuable for an atheist, for example when a person does not submit to the regime, or when they are sentenced to die and he accepts it heroically. It is said by those who saw the events from outside the synagogue about one Yitzhak Horowitz that when the Germans set fire to the synagogue on its occupants and he was there he took a Torah scroll and said
http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%97%D7%A7_%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A5
"We are privileged to observe mitzvahs of self-sacrifice for the sanctification of Hashem and we must do it out of joy." He put one hand on the shoulder of Rabbi Eliyahu Haim Althuiz and the other on the shoulder of Rabbi Yehezkel Feigin (the devoted and faithful secretary of the Rabbi HaReitz) and together they danced while singing the well-known Chabadi 'Kapfut' tune..."
Adam Atiasit or Janusz Korczak also died for the sanctification of Hashem, even if he is not a believer or religious. Such behavior can be respected even if you are completely secular. Pious secularism is a religion no less respectable than religions.
Several points for thought in connection with the things written above
* Since the dawn of mankind, people in all cultures have been engaged in the worship of life by sacrificing human offerings, animals, etc. As part of the pagan beliefs and includes the monotheistic beliefs. For example, among the Jews it is called Kiddush Hashem, among the Muslims it is called a martyr and among Christians it is called a martyr. All beliefs deal with the glorification of sacrifice in the name of one ideology or another. The central idea of human sacrifices etc. is anchored in the human consciousness and is used for ideological propaganda, the cult of personality, building a common ethos and more.
* Let history be rewritten and hence the burning of a collective memory that corresponds to the echenda of the ruler or the form of government at that time. Erasing the past and building a new past suitable for the new leaders.
* As part of the previous section, human nature is such that it does not perpetuate events that are perceived at that time as a failure and therefore are not recorded or that undergo adaptation in accordance with the spirit of the later period.
* The information does not survive. And of course there is no rational period criticism, but only in the best case there are folk tales told according to the interpretation of the period. The result is that there is no reliable historiographic information.
* The Bible is not a historical book (or a compilation of several books from different periods) and certainly not a scientific book as is customary nowadays.
We need the doubters and doubters. Without Professor Israel Finkelstein I would not have thought of doubting the correctness of the House of David and building the extra-biblical proofs on a more rational basis. Without Dr. Yachiam Sorek the doubting and sometimes annoying whistle is the same. I came from a traditional home and he questions sacred cows. On the other hand, I'm ready to hear opinions, so it is used as a way to make sense.
Without new historians who question the right of Zionism and live in England, and those who are on the border such as Professor Benny Morris and Dr. Thom Segev (the seventh million, Ben-Gurion Medina at any cost), there would not have been a comprehensive and two-sided scan of the Jewish-Arab conflict, which forces us look in the mirror Similarly, without Professor Zeev Sternhal, who preaches to us from the comforts of the Yeshiva in Paris, we would not have a book on Anti-Enlightenment. And without Chomsky, who as a human I completely doubt him, we would not have artificial intelligence from language decoding, and mathematics from linguistics. You have to respect the doubters, stand for what everyone thinks is right, and encourage a plurality of opinions.
Yosef ben Matthieu, the writer of the Jewish Antiquities and the Jewish Wars, can be compared and found to be accurate in the following contents:
Maccabees, Hasmoneans, Herod and his household, the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essenes. Here a comparison of his books with the Dead Sea scrolls was carried out. The Karaites and Sikris, the kings of the House of Herod, Agrippa, etc. John the Baptist, Jacob the brother of Jesus and Jesus. On the subject of Jesus, there is doubt as to whether the material was not transplanted by translators - but on the other hand it is possible that Joseph himself wrote it down. Herod's tomb is found to be in full agreement with the description in his books, just as Mada corresponds precisely geographically to his book.
There is criticism of his work, certainly not a denial. There is criticism of the correctness of Herod's tomb identified today - it has nothing to do with Josephus. Joseph had a good life materially and was married 4 times with many children. His books are in the best tradition of Roman historians, and without this literature we would not know much of what we know today about the 200 years from Tythiahu to the destruction of the house.
Skeptical friends. Don't let the ostracon with the name of Elazar ben Yair in Masada confuse you.
Nor for the exact description of the camp, including the road to the battery, the legion camp and its remains, and palaces on the Masada side that Josephus describes.
Nor to the body of the commander and his wife and child - found in one of the palaces. And not the credibility of Josephus in the description of Herod and his wife Shlomit and their use of the palace during the rebellion. Skepticism here is a sign of scholarship, but there is nothing between it and historical scientific research. When Socrates was judged the sophists claimed that black is white and sun is moon and in this confusion there is no truth and no untruth.
Yosef ben Matityahu is considered a very reliable historian, based on the variety of the canvas, he dared to look for roots in his time
Rational for the origin of the Jewish people in the Hyksos tribes, Yehoyrib was from the priestly family - possessing the same marks of scholarship and eloquence that characterize the great men of Israel in future generations.
In Yodafat there was a similar story, and in every fortress that the Romans conquered - the fighting Jews preferred to commit suicide. Joseph, who was less jealous, more aristocratic, and more a temple valued life and not death, and less believed in the correctness of the struggle with Rome, played with the fates and came out alive. He was a great historian, ostracized by the Jews, he saw that the destruction could have been prevented, in the midst of the siege of Jerusalem - he was.
Yosef believed so much that the early Christians who translated his book "The Antiquity of the Jews" are suspect
who deliberately planted the mention of Jesus, so that there would be a source other than the Talmud, apart from the New Testament, for Jesus. This is the paragraph that is assumed to be incorrect.
This is similar to people, let's say non-Jews, who would be alive in 100 years, when there will be no memory of the camps, nor of the victims, and the pictures - they will say they are photoshopped and say God forbid (there is no blame here, but a metaphor and image) and there will be holocaust deniers who do not let the evidence confuse you. And this is said neither as gossip nor disrespect: people have the right to their opinion. For its part, archeology stands up to scientific and accurate criticism.
In light of the fact that no remains of the besieged hundreds were found, it is permissible to assume that the Romans did not bury them, and that the remains were scattered and disintegrated.
Bones don't last forever under any conditions.
I mean, we didn't find it, it's not proof that it didn't happen.
It is permissible to assume that the Romans did not bury the bodies of Nazarenes from Masada.
Unburied bodies may not last two thousand years.
Lack of proof is not proof that it didn't happen.
It is worth adding to these things that it is very likely that Josephus did not have access to those who supposedly survived the suicide and that the story of the suicide itself is very suspiciously similar to the story of the fall of Jodephat that Josephus was a participant in. The late French-Jewish historian Pierre Vidal Naka already insisted on this.
And the Holocaust does not lack evidence, especially from the SS men themselves who documented themselves and of course the allied soldiers at the time of the fall of the Reich and all the research that has been done since then and it is very likely that so many primary and secondary documents will not be lost in the future so that the arguments comparing it to the Holocaust are foolish.
Let's start with Noster... who simply disgraces himself but unfortunately also the stage in front of us, by the way it is allowed not to publish any stupid and inciting Band-Aid reaction. What about Sikars and Zionists? What is this and anarchism? Blatant ignorance and nothing else.
As a matter of fact, I would like to add to what was written above:
1) It is true that the "Myth of Masada" was created to a large extent by the renewed Zionist movement in Israel for its educational needs, but Dr. Shurk's general description is more suitable for Dr. Uri Milstein than for a serious discussion like the one before us.
2) Prof. Yedin was indeed a master of the story and the magnificent illustration (some would say "manipulative"), does this completely negate his findings, for example those ostracons with the names of warriors (or perhaps the lottery of portions of water?) and the way he refers to the Masada site for all its meanings, including the presentation of The Sikars as it is currently accepted to describe them in the relevant research.
3) There is indeed a very difficult problem in connection with the "suicide speech" given as an exact transcript because who exactly reported it?
4) For some reason I have not yet come across a study that tries to explain Yosef's descriptions of fighting in Masada as an observer from the Silva camp based on the reality of his life as the commander of the fortress of Yodafat defending against a Roman attack and hence perhaps "the production of Elazar's speeches". In any case, there is no debate whether they are "Joseph Flavius's speeches" a traitor or not.
Apparently this looks like a classic example of using the method of argument from ignorance,
A method that is more common in circles with religious ideology in the world, but there are also quite a few secularists who share the same worldview of arguing from ignorance,
By and large, X and Y are correct, but you still lack the variable Z (the area of ignorance) because you do not know the value of Z. This is the proof that my argument/belief is correct,
It is true that sometimes this lack of evidence is proof in itself, for example in the case of a murder in Italy
in which an American student was accused and acquitted in the end and the Italian boyfriend and a third guy remained the only culprit,
Because it is unlikely that it is possible in a wild murder scene that has not been cleaned to clean only the findings of 2 and leave the findings of one,
Even NASA can't clean their spaceship from bacteria and surely 2 flying students won't succeed,
In this case, the lack of evidence is reasonable proof in itself, the plaintiff's world view skipped the very important step of matching the findings at the scene, the similarity is that you subordinate the facts to your belief,
But to go to a scene from 2000 years ago where every detail almost fully matches the description of the historian from that time but since they did not find their burial place to draw a conclusion that contradicts his words, even though so far he has relied on it, it sounds absurd to the point of being denied how they fled to Alexandria beyond the Roman barriers on helicopter?
Isn't it more likely that she is much more zealous, some of whom were not in Masada at all?
In this case, the burden of proof for a different argument should be much more significant for the one who wants to disprove this story, and he cannot escape to the method of argument from ignorance, this is not serious,
Regrettably, flaws in the form of the proof rely on a method of argument from ignorance may also damage the rest of Yachiam's work.
from a worldview that harms the scientific logical structure of his work,
It may seem like something that brings goods for customers who only pay for one product which is cynical and mocking
Anything else will not be accepted.
It is important to have a multilateral discourse for history including things that are really uncomfortable for us but probably in the current case
We did not get a deeper understanding even if there was use of data, some of which are interesting and definitely worth reading.
It really doesn't make sense that the Romans built a wall around all sides with a tremendous effort and then let the defenders escape. It is much easier to assume that some of the Sikris came from Jerusalem to Masada and some to Egypt. It just took longer to get to the Egyptians. Apparently the graves found in Masada are of people who died during the siege, whereas after the Romans broke into Masada they either found all the defenders dead or they killed them, then they didn't bother to bury them or they didn't bury them on purpose (they didn't set up a camp on the Masada itself after the break-in). Joseph ben Matthew is a generally reliable writer, and if there was a break-in and escape of the defenders through the wall, it must have been done in a battle of movement and he would certainly have written about it. He does have mistakes - he wrote that the king's palace in Masada was covered with Italian marble and today it can be seen that it was painted plaster in imitation of marble. But to say that he invented Masada's story? We need serious evidence and not the baseless assumptions that are in the article.
Yosef
No need to wait 100 years. There are already holocaust deniers and it doesn't bother them if there is evidence or not. And some even did a doctorate on it...
And speaking of doctors, then regarding the "historian" Dr. Yachiam - it is clear that he has an agenda and he sees the whole world only through the glasses of his agenda. His credibility is light-years away from that of the historian Yosef ben Matityahu whom he dares to doubt.
I apologize. I exaggerated. Dr. Yachiam's right whistles to his opinions, and I see it as a blessing that they challenge my fixed work assumptions. In the same way, I cherish the books of Israel Finkelstein that challenge David's kingdom, and think that it was a significant kingdom, perhaps not in the dimensions recorded in the Bible.
However, I believe, and this is only my opinion, that Masada's story probably was and is very appropriate, both for the findings in the field and for the mentality of the Sikris. In the story of supporters: the correlation between Masada's description in the book of Flavius the Son of the finds: the serpent's path, the legion camps, the pot of destiny with the name of Eleazar Ben-Yair, and the fact that the bodies of a senior commander's family were found nearby. In addition, the reliability of Josephus Flavius regarding the rest of his stories, and the fact that he himself participated in the casting of lots of who kills whom seems to me to be in vain. I mean it was a norm in the Great Rebellion.
Against: the fact that 900 bodies were not found, but only 28, and also as Yahyam claims there were Sikris in other rebellions. I believe that this is not necessarily a reason against. What bothers people here is the systematic denial of the origins of the Jewish people, at first until the beginning of the Second Temple, and now the myth of Masada.
In 100 years, people will come and deny historical events like the Holocaust, and the fact that there will be no evidence on the ground, does not mean that it did not happen.
Not a standard situation means that a child and a young woman and man are in the same place dead. It matches the suicide story. The pottery also matches the suicide story.
The article does not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Let's say in 1000 years they will investigate our time. So if they discovered settlers in Amona, then if they later discovered them in all of Judea and Samaria, do we conclude from this that there was no record of Amona.
The only difference between Joseph Flavius's book is that only 28 bodies were found in Masada, of which a young commander, a young woman and a child. And by the way, this is not a standard situation. They did not find 900 bodies. But all the rest of the description, Professor Yigal Yedin, when he came to archaeologically investigate Masada, simply followed Joseph Flavius' navigational instructions. A pottery ostracon with the inscription Elazar ben Yair LeGorel was also found. Josephus Flavius himself was in such a casting of lots in Galilee.
His hypotheses regarding the original Exodus are similar to the method of scientific analysis. He is seen as a reliable historian throughout his books. Why then would he lie here? He found a parallel between the Hyksos and the Hebrews.
Today is more appropriate between his friend and his past.
Lord Nostradamus
One can disagree if the writer's analysis and opinions,
It is also possible to think differently and express the opposition to writing,
One might even think that the writer and the editor make mistakes and publish mistakes,
Between that and profanity in foul language
There's a difference …
Wow! Another new record in right-wing evil talkbackism. The victory of stupidity. Signed: Erasmus.
Wow! Another record - not new, of course - of evil talkbackism!
How can one compare first testimony written by the historian and supported by archaeological evidence in the field such as the remains of the Roman camp, the occupation embankment and pottery shards with lottery names to baseless assumptions? This is a good example of bad research.
weak.
"Where did they come from?" asks the writer. During all the years of the rebellion, Sikriim fled from all over the Land of Israel. Some of them reached Egypt and Libya. 600 is a small number of all the surveys on the eve of the uprising. Otherwise there wouldn't really have been a rebellion.
It is still possible that there was no suicide. But the argument supporting the article is weak.
Wow, this is a new record of false leftist anti-Zionist propaganda. I want to throw up on this garbage. Shame on the writer and the one who published this garbage from the crazy tenarchist left