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A country haunted by demons 21: Israel is weakening - 14% of Israelis are more religious than before, only XNUMX% are less religious than before

200 repent, but of these 98 were previously secular or non-religious traditionalists, 98 people who were lost to the Israeli manufacturing economy

Young ultra-Orthodox in typical clothing read a poster against the support of the "Torah Judaism" party in the Sharon government during the disengagement. From Wikipedia
Young ultra-Orthodox in typical clothing read a poster against the support of the "Torah Judaism" party in the Sharon government during the disengagement. From Wikipedia

According to the self-definition of the respondents to the CBS social survey - 2009, among the Jewish population aged 20 and over: 8% ultra-Orthodox, 12% religious, 13% religious traditionalists, 25% not-so-religious traditionalists, and 42% secular. When asked about changes in the degree of religiosity during their lifetime, 21% of Jews aged 20 and over report that today they are more religious than they were in the past (about 790,000 people): 42% of the ultra-Orthodox, 46% of the religious, 34% of the traditional-religious, 21% of the non-traditional -So religious and 6% of the secular.

34% of those who are more religious today than before, report that the main reason for this is studying and acquiring new knowledge, 27% due to the influence of family or the environment, 15% due to the influence of their spouse, and 14% due to a personal crisis.

In contrast, 14% of those aged 20 and over report that today they are less religious than they were in the past (about 520,000 people): 4% of the religious, 10% of the traditional are religious, 22% of the traditional are not so religious and 16% of the secular report that today they are less religious than they were in the past.

29% of those who are less religious today than before report that the main reason for this is the influence of the family or the environment, 26% following study and acquiring new knowledge, 13% following a personal crisis, 11% due to the influence of the spouse, and 19% due to the influence of another factor.


About 200,000 people aged 20 and over, who make up 5.4% of the Jewish population at this age, define themselves as "repentant": 22% of the ultra-orthodox define themselves as "repentant", 17% of the religious and 9% of the traditional-religious.

About half (49%) of those who repent report that the main reason for this is studying and acquiring new knowledge, about a quarter (25%) repented under the influence of family, their partner or the environment and 17% following a personal crisis.

29% of the converts grew up in a secular home, 20% in a traditional-not-so-religious home, 33% in a traditional-religious home and 14% in a religious home. 70% of the converts are born in Israel.

Religiosity of parents' home (at age 15)

About a third (33%) of the ultra-Orthodox testified that they grew up in a non-Orthodox home when they were 15. About a quarter (24%) of the seculars did not grow up in a secular home when they were 15 years old.

When we come to analyze the data, we see that the number of 200 converts is inflated because it includes those who were traditional and religious and became ultra-Orthodox, but even if we take the number of secular people who became religious - 58 (29% of 200) and the number of those who grew up in a traditional home Non-religious - 40 thousand (20% of 200 thousand), we will get the biggest trouble that happened to the country - the loss of 98 thousand productive people who became murmurers. This number adds a considerable number of seats in the Knesset to the extremely excessive number of the ultra-Orthodox, which is constantly growing as a result of the high natural increase in this sector.

If we add to this the fact that the system of conversion is free and open, while the system of conversion in question is actually underground due to the fear of ultra-Orthodox violence, we will understand that the issue is one-sided.

It is true that there are ultra-Orthodox individuals who managed to get out of their trap, but they do it more or less on their own.

An interesting point about repentance is that half of the repentants did it because they wanted to acquire new knowledge. Indeed, the State of Israel betrays its citizens when it unilaterally allows knowledge to flow from one direction - the direction of those who return to the teshuva - henceforth from the Jewish people. These people teach the knowledge selectively and in many cases its scientific basis is wrong, either on purpose in the event that it contradicts the religion, or simply out of lack of understanding, and so it turns out that people come to learn from a person they think is wise and know everything and receive wrong knowledge, with whom they do the The biggest wrong decision of their lives - to repent. In other words, they were looking for a monarchy and found Athens (see an example in the MAZVA video).

The one who repents condemns himself to a life of poverty and ignorance, but worse than that he condemns his many children that will be born to him or her (this is true for both sexes) to a life of ignorance and ignorance where the word "education" is a derogatory word, that the Talmud is more important than English and mathematics to such an extent that it should be killed and not taught These professions, and there are some that are worth more - the Ashkenazi Hasidim, and there are some that are worth less because they have a little more pigment.

I personally don't understand how anyone would want to join such a boring sect that constantly holds violent demonstrations and demands that we determine how we will live - the Shabbat demonstrations, the support for the starving mother, the Mahadrin lines on buses and their reduction to light rail as well, the terrorism in Ashkelon - which is not enough to come from the direction of Hamas must also strengthen The hands of people wearing black throwing stones at the people who are building a protected emergency room at the Barzilai hospital, and add to that the winter time that the minister imposed on us in the middle of the summer and you will realize that this is not a country worth living in and protecting.

Someone up there needs to immediately make a number of changes:

  1. To stop the deterioration of the secular education system and its transformation into a religious one
  2. Cancel many decrees imposed on us because of the ultra-Orthodox - to provide public transportation on Shabbat, cancel the chametz law.
  3. Cancel all the benefits given to the ultra-Orthodox - from participation in property taxes to free student transportation to remote places, income supplementation and more.
  4. To send the ultra-Orthodox to the army and to work and those who refuse - let them go to prison. It is possible to give the upper classes where to study as with the seculars not everyone studies at the university through a fairly simple mechanism - collecting tuition fees instead of giving gifts to the students. If they want to learn nonsense, please do so at their own expense.
  5. To allow the existence of a movement of repetition in the question in size and with similar means to those of repentance.

I am sure that these steps are just a drop in the ocean that needs to be done to bring the country back to sanity. Otherwise our stay in the OECD will be very short.

These data are added to the data on the reduction of state education to such an extent that Jerusalem today has a minimal proportion of secular students, and to reports of this that the ultra-orthodox choose deliberate poverty:

A country haunted by demons XNUMX - Science is not a program as you requested, a response regarding Avital

A country haunted by demons XNUMX - the time of Ahmadinejad

467 תגובות

  1. Avi !! Every word of yours is in the right place, it will be a blessing to the Jews, the religion for all the generations has caused disasters and destruction, discovering and conquering the country, who knows better than you the truth, not a lot. The State of Israel is in trouble from the ultra-Orthodox!!

  2. Shmelz: Where did you go???
    First of all, it's good that you mentioned "protocol" regarding the Talmud as opposed to the protocol of the legal system today.
    Second, what do you get into with me regarding religion and the lack of rituals? Who cares? Who does it matter? to the religious Let them enjoy their right. But what does this have to do with the judicial system? In a little while you will start comparing religion and its "truth" to science. You started well. It's time to retire with some kind of record in terms of your statements….

  3. But the Talmud is not a halachic file, but a "protocol".

    It is clear that there is a considerable part of the discussion in the Shas that is not relevant "as such". It is relevant if you are trying to understand the roots of the halacha and build a continuous line of rulings.
    It is clear that the Shulchan Aruch is more relevant than the Shas, and the writings of Rabbi Feinstein and Rabbi Ovadia are more relevant than the Sho'a. There are almost no arbitrators today who look at the Shas and directly make rulings on halacha from it, because that would be anachronism.
    Just as precedents are important in general law, but the continuity of rulings of the original law must be preserved, so also in halacha, the continuity of the roots of the halacha must be preserved while taking into account the precedents and the halachos that have been renewed since those roots were established.

    These laws are much more relevant on a daily basis to many people than quibbles in the courts.

  4. no and no. Not all the works of human culture are "vanity vanities". Winnie the Pooh, for example, that my son loves very much and learns from is not "vanity". For that matter, the Bible, like other religious works, is not vanity except when you treat them as "sacred", as "the word of God" and as such you nullify yourself in front of them and become a willing slave to them. I, as a Jew, like to study, browse, get to know and rub shoulders with the works of my people's culture. Why not ? M-A-D is desirable. Even a must know. This is the view of Judaism as culture and inspiration as formulated by Amos Oz. But the religious attitude towards it turns the tradition into "vanity". Do you understand the difference and the gap?
    Science is certainly not vanity. on the contrary. Despite and despite the problems it has.
    In my opinion, the discussion at Hempet Hall is not "sacred" and nothing is sacred.
    However, the difference is that in the legal system, discussions are conducted that are really relevant to our lives, necessarily and in fact affect our lives and are related to the reality of our lives.
    If you are familiar with the Talmudic bickering, then even if its part was relevant to life 2000 years ago, what does it have to do with our lives today? And I'm talking in terms of application, up-to-dateness and not the study and quibbling that are respected in their place. What's more, some of the assertions or discussions are really ridiculous in light of the development in science and human morality.
    And the other is a total zill.

  5. I have to disagree on almost every point in your words, but regardless - even according to you, religion is no less effective than any other human creation, and as such the very discussion and the concepts included in it are important. Even if, according to the atheist opinion, it is a jumble of nonsense - in fact, all human culture is nothing more than a jumble of nonsense, including the truths of those who take their "objective truths" so abysmally seriously.
    Quite a few quills were also broken about the nature of the scientific method, the nature of human diagnosis and the fundamental flaws that we have as human beings coming to examine the world.

    And according to you, what is the difference between a "sacred" discussion carried out in the courtrooms by priests who were required to study and pass exams, all of which are nothing but cultural writings, in the details of corporate law, in contract law, in criminal and civil law, people who must be approached by standing only and in introductions that glorify and praise the Did you rise above all the other people sitting in the courtroom - and similar discussions that are held in the midrash houses?

    Both are nothing more than cultural fiction.

  6. This time I disagree with something. From your response it appears as if there is some "truth" in religion and there are "correct" interpretations and meanings. odd. Religion is part of human culture and like any cultural product it is the result of the actions of man. Since it is not a physical creation but a mental (spiritual) creation, you can "play" with it more. Unlike an architectural structure that is clear and complete with ideas you can have fun. All the religious of all kinds and types, in all times, did exactly this. Especially since religion is nothing but an invented creation of man and given its absoluteness in the life of the believer, it contains contradictions, refutations in arguments, paradoxes and real absurdities. If you look at religion from the outside as a phenomenon, especially in light of the serious and abysmal attitude of the believers in it, the phenomenon can be summed up in one word: M-C-W-H-C-T.
    Of course, inside the believer, naturally, chooses only one, certain angle in religion and a certain current in which he works. The rest are mistaken in different and changing levels of error according to the degree of distance from him and he knows the "truth" and the "correct" interpretation of religion.
    What the Rambam said, what the cook wrote, all but they are nonsense from the outside. Mental entertainment, gothic and nothing else. They had no idea and were giggling. The scientist knows. The believer believes and the roof often chatters.
    Moreover, our problem, humans, as a society, as a culture, is the place we give to religious quacks. Let me make my point clear: religious scholars can talk and talk about the objects of their faith as much as they like. For example: questions about keeping Shabbat and desecrating it one way or another, how and when to pray, these are questions about religious rituals and worship. This is precisely the raison d'être of the rabbis. messing with their false faith from their hearts.
    A-B-L With the years and the power that the clergy gained (rabbis, exemplary priests, etc.) they began to reach out to other areas that are not their areas of occupation. Let's put more on the political side since it is still in the field of knowledge and outlook: to withdraw from the territories, or not, etc. But in other fields the fact that their believing nose is pushed is the scandal that shocks world institutions: determining death, archeology, lectures in the fields of cosmology, physics and biology (evolution is their favorite subject). In these lectures, they take advantage of the ignorance of the crowd to push wrong and invalid ideas in order to gain power. And so he quickly sensed that you are reaching a situation where the stupid US president, Bush, is preventing stem cell research for many years because of his broken religious beliefs. In doing so, he harmed the progress of medical science.
    I finished my words.

  7. Unfortunately, there are often cases where the orthodox side is not really familiar with the sources (or their meanings), and prefers to stick to dogmas (for better or for worse).

    In this case evolution can be used as an example. Not only did Rabbi Kook say that it does not contradict the Torah, also from the Rambam's words in Morah Nabukim it can be understood that there is nothing wrong with the understanding that 'man descends from the ape', because "God's image" is not at all concerned with the organism and its dependence, but with spiritual essence and essence, which the Sefirah The creation of the world practiced today begins only with the creation of man (which, as mentioned, was not a physical creation, but a spiritual matter), etc., etc.

    Of course, there will be those, among them scholars and highly knowledgeable people, who will disagree and say that all the above interpretations are apologetics or who will disagree on the interpretation itself - but this does not invalidate it. But from my limited experience, the more learned a person is, the less often these problems bother him, and he finds a way to reconcile the (seemingly) contradictions - and even grow from them and find new and significant insights in them.

  8. who advises As usual (at least so far in the discussion) you are absolutely right. Sometimes rhetoric should be avoided. Then I refrain. For example, in a more personal discussion. Here many read the comments, are impressed and influenced. In general, it can be said that the secular and less religious side occupies the apologetic, inferior and explanatory side. It's bad and bad.
    The religious will often feel that he has a "full cart". It's OK. But on the other hand, the secular will feel that his cart is empty. Such a scandal. "Hamb, you are a Jew"; "How is your Judaism expressed?" These sentences reflect the crushing attacks, sometimes on the shrinking secularist, small and disappearing at the end of the discussion. How many times have I witnessed this it's scary. The secular - who again, unfortunately, in most cases is ignorant and ignorant of the issues of the Orthodox religion, does not know how to answer. Every statement of a religious person is accepted without question and established as "truth" and "fact". They take advantage of this, of course, to the bitter end (of the secular).
    My personal opinion is that we are in a culture war. That's how I drive. On the weekend while sipping my Friday morning coffee and reading "Haaretz" I read that there are others who think as much as I do. here:
    good week.

  9. True, sometimes the rhetoric is consumed, as a derivative of the time, the place and the person with whom one is arguing.
    From your side, I ask myself if it is not worthwhile to sometimes try to avoid the above-mentioned rhetoric, if only to preserve (or at least, a one-sided attempt to preserve) a substantive discussion.

  10. Schmelz: Absolutely right. Indeed, the window is short and in discussions of this type one must summarize, generalize and of course sin against the truth and the much more complex reality of things that are carried in this way in the virtual space. For the purpose of the discussion, it is necessary to refine, to exaggerate a little, to highlight phenomena and trends, to emphasize and shed more light on different corners.
    The received message is sharper and clearer. The arguments are more abundant. This is the way and there is no end. Therefore, all your words are acceptable to me without any objection. I hope I made it clear why there is no choice in the discussion but to take the line I took to convey a message and a position.
    Moreover, the side I'm arguing against excels at this, so it's all the more important to do it the way my friends and I do it.
    It is important to explain that the religious side uses every sign and statement that is not absolute and clear as a sign in their favor. D: "Oh, so you are Jewish?" Well, do you see?" A: "What do you see? I'm Jewish in terms of belonging to the people, but I'm an atheist." D: "So you rest on Shabbat and don't work, right?" It's true, but what does Chinese status and religion have to do with it?" and all.

  11. A righteous Jew, some nuances are missing.
    I certainly agree that there are quite a few disturbing phenomena, on the other hand - a blanket inclusion of all Orthodoxy under the same umbrella as Zamir Cohen, or the inclusion of the entire ultra-Orthodox world with the Ashkelon demonstrators does injustice to those communities.

    I know more than a handful of religious biologists who have no problem with evolution, and more than a handful of orthodox who have nothing to do with biology who have no problem with evolution.
    I also know leaders of yeshiva who ruled quite clearly that there is no problem in copying the graves from Ashkelon (besides the fact that it is not about Jewish graves, it is about public needs, so it is possible that even if it were the graves of kosher Jews, it would be permissible to copy the graves). But it did not interest the media, and therefore did not receive any resonance. who will
    the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
    Those who are annoying and making noise get the attention, regardless of what is really happening.

  12. To Anonymous: Before the author of the article responds, I will allow myself to comment as well. I assume from your response that you are not only a believer but, alas, religious. How easy it is to identify a view by one comment………..
    The "rest" of the article is not speculation, but a well-founded personal opinion supported by the facts presented in the article. For example: "The Shabbat protests, the support for the starving mother, the Mahadrin bus lines and their reduction to light rail as well, the terrorism in Ashkelon (against the establishment of an emergency room on a pagan cemetery of idolaters...)". These are all facts. More can be added here and there: extensive frauds and huge frauds in yeshivas in order to steal money from the state, throwing stones in Beit Shemesh, last Shabbat throwing stones on HaNaviim Street in the Jewish Community (a new front has opened??), acts of pedophilia and deviations that are frequently published (not in the ultra-Orthodox press, that's clear There are only two colors for reality - dark black and dark gray). There is a lot more but the story is short.
    The connection between science and writing is that the day the religious population will be dominant to the point of control, science will degenerate into dark realms.
    You can already see how the religious sector publishes publications that can be called "delusional" such as the books of Zamir Cohen who lies, distorts, distorts, takes things out of context and generally commits obscene acts to the point of actual deviations in both traditional and scientific writings. It is a shame to expand on the situation in Islamic countries, and in the United States Christian illusionists are brainwashing the youth with methods similar to those of Orthodoxy in Israel. For example, in order to strengthen the nonsense called "creationism" (the main points of which are copied by religious preachers without shame), a museum was opened that shows humans alongside dinosaurs based on the belief (which is as false as any belief) that the world was created in six days 5700+ years ago (they accept the Jewish religious reckoning orthodox…..) and therefore all creatures were created together in Mecca…..sad joke. This activity both in the US and in Israel has sad results as many tend towards the simple and simplistic answers of the religion that uses "instant science" and does not require much effort on the weight of the sentence: "Is it hard to learn science? Try a religion..!!!”. The influx of many towards religion, irrationality, superstitions and also indolence has a cumulative effect on communities, society, nation and country that leads to disasters with their quantitative accumulation.
    By the way hatred and incitement, when did you look at the publications in the religious press about the non-religious public known as "secular"????

  13. The opinions are speculative only in the eyes of those who hide them from him. This is one of the most difficult problems of Israeli society, people who instead of contributing to it become dependent on it. I understand that there are those who think that the sun shines thanks to their prayers, but what can you do, nothing happens in a modern country as a result of prayers and idleness, but from work and creativity.

  14. The article is full of speculative opinions that do not correspond to reality for people who know it, the only facts that may exist here (assuming and taken accurately) are in the first three paragraphs and under the heading "Repenters", the rest of the article is speculation and a cheap use of science to promote a certain extreme opinion, there is no connection Between science and what was voiced in the rest of the article, nothing but a basic lack of familiarity with these publics is incitement and hatred.
    It is serious in my opinion that a scientific website (even if it is pseudo-scientific) promotes in a scientific context articles that are not related to science and only use it at the beginning of the response, when the rest of the article is full of hatred and speculation, and no material from this lack of familiarity with the general public except, as mentioned.

  15. Where are all the comments protesting the racist things in the article? There were dozens and maybe hundreds here!

  16. Oops! I just saw the article "The devil entered them" in a country haunted by demons XNUMX

  17. I don't like the name "Enlightenment Camp", because of the arrogance it implies. In my opinion, as mentioned, each camp has its enlightened sides.

    The mere fact that some phenomenon is human does not necessarily mean that it is positive. But I accept your insight because that's how the world works.

    Since I am Jewish and have unenlightened sides, I will be stigmatized and answer one or more questions. [In light of your position on the question "Who is a Jew" and the fact that you believe that a Jew = religious, I would love to hear from you how you define yourself, since you are not religious?]: Do you know what my position was on the question of who is a Jew? Do you honestly think that I believe that a Jew cannot be secular?

  18. jubilee. Indeed utopian aspirations are welcome but not realistic. Show me a nation / group large enough that does not have "camps". ? Even at your workplace there are some….. I don't see camping as a negative but a human phenomenon and it is completely natural. What's more, I do hope that you will choose to belong to the Enlightenment camp. I mean, how is it possible otherwise??? 🙂

    And for your answer. I didn't describe that we would start getting into trouble already at the stage of definitions and concepts.... I don't disagree with your diagnosis but you didn't answer my question at all. And again from your answer it is not clear what your religion is? By choosing the moral aspect that developed in the people of Israel in biblical times? Is this a religion? Is this what you mean?

  19. You are righteous, Amit, because I am your enemy... I hope your absence was for a good purpose.

    I very much hope that you are wrong and that I do not belong to any camp. Each camp has its enlightened sides. Furthermore, I hope with all my heart that camping in our country will soon be a prison nowadays.

    I also believe that you are wrong in my definition as "non-religious", well: religion, almost every religion, in my opinion, is a fusion of metaphysical belief with rules of conduct. Judaism, starting from the days of King Hezekiah, is a fusion of two different religions of two priesthoods - the House of Moses (the Levites) and the House of Aaron (the priests of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem). The House of Aaron focused on worship and cooperated with the corrupt upper class, while the House of Moses preached high morality. It goes without saying that the priests of the House of Moses were persecuted by corrupt kings, and evidence of this can be found in the Bible. I lean towards the house of Moses, for whom God is not in heaven and not on earth but in the heart of man. If you notice, most of the prophets appearing in the Bible did not fight (only) against this or that idol, but against moral corruption. If you look at the ten commandments you will see that half of them concern matters between a person and his friend. I don't believe in a God who wears two hats - a hat that creates the world and a hat that buys the world. I believe that the nation's strength against enemies and its ability to recover from natural disasters lies in correct moral behavior and not in huddles in synagogues and muttering verses. On the other hand, if in order to become stronger, some of us feel the need to believe in the Creator of the world and buy it - I will not be the one to prevent it from them, but I would love to see them from Nablus as well.

  20. Yuval Hello, I was absent for a while and I'm back. It is clear to me that you belong to our camp - the enlightened camp. In light of your position on the question "Who is a Jew" and the fact that you believe that a Jew = religious, I would like to hear from you how you define yourself, since you are not religious?

  21. I once had an imaginary "friend" in the form of a demon who sat between the window bars (also imaginary) a meter away from me, behind my back. I was terribly afraid. Every now and then I would muster up courage and turn around to see him; He, of course, disappeared, and this only increased my fears. Somehow I managed to get rid of it, but I still remember the intensity of the fear. I have a friend who grew up in an ultra-orthodox household and at the age of 14 decided to become a prostitute. He told me about the immense fear that gripped him when he bit into a slice of bread on Yom Kippur.

    I guess psychology knows mountains of stories like this. In my opinion, the anxiety of the country indicates that not many manage to free themselves from that imaginary demon. Because of this, it seems to me that we are in for a difficult and protracted war in which it is not at all certain that we will win.

  22. jubilee:
    If I had underestimated the enemy I would not have fought him.
    He is extremely dangerous and therefore it is important that people understand that his arguments are nonsense.

    According to him, it is "not possible" to stand on Memorial Day and the ultra-orthodox really do not stand.
    What is "complete" (in his opinion) is to say "Shema Yisrael".
    And it's clear that it's a lot less because when you're standing, everyone sees - the fact that there's someone talking to an imaginary friend, no one sees (and it's a good thing).

  23. Khantarish (T/S)
    Worthless, unimportant, meager, superficial, shallow, empty, shallow, weak, hollow (Babylon)
    unreliable, not serious, talking nonsense, nonsense, worthless, less (Wikidictionary)
    From Persian Khanda Rish - laughter, something to laugh at (Wikidictionary).

    And I'm an Omir: let's not underestimate the enemy, whether it's an Iranian with a complicated name or whether it's a Rebbe with or without a beard

  24. jubilee:
    In my opinion, "n" and "t" should be added in the appropriate places 🙂

  25. Yair! Thanks. I took note.

    R. H! Thank you. You saved me from a big embarrassment. I fully appreciate you.

  26. jubilee,

    It is not accurate that a calf does not appear in the Bible in the masculine form.
    See for example:

    1) "And he said to Aaron, take for yourself a young calf for sin and a ram for an offering and sacrifice it before Jehovah." Leviticus XNUMX, verse XNUMX

    2) "And Aaron approached the altar and slaughtered the sin calf that he had." Leviticus XNUMX, verse XNUMX

    3) "And bring a calf into the house and hurry and sacrifice it and take flour and thresh it and bake unleavened bread." XNUMX Samuel, XNUMX verse XNUMX.

    4) "And they danced like a calf in Lebanon and a bull like a son of Aram." Psalm XNUMX verse XNUMX.

    On the other hand, you are right that it is not clear that the calves made by Aaron and Jeroboam were indeed calves since they are described as "masked calves" and perhaps one can think that these were other ritual objects that, as a result of a wrong reading, were described as calves (as in the case of the "horn of the skin of his face" which was described as horns).

  27. jubilee,
    Despite the warning of R.H. You are still overly determined. The chance that your interpretation converting a calf in a circle is correct is slim. The word calf is mentioned in the Tanakh many times as an animal for sacrifice and food. The gods of the Middle East are often depicted, including Jehovah of course, using animal parts. There is no reasonable reason for your suggestion.

  28. Hello R. H. and thank you for your important comment, thanks to which I sat down and studied the Bible in great depth. Here is a repeat of what I said along with quotes I found:

    In two temples built in the Kingdom of Israel and attributed to King Jeroboam I, golden calves were placed (Book of Kings XNUMX, chapter XNUMX, verse XNUMX and verse XNUMX; Book of Kings XNUMX, chapter XNUMX, verse XNUMX; Book of Chronicles XNUMX, chapter XNUMX, verse XNUMX). It is said of Jeroboam that he lived for a long time in Egypt, where they worshiped the sun god whose symbol was a golden circle (and the spelling lacks "calf"). It is said about King Solomon that he placed copper calves in his temple as well as a golden calf (copper calves: Book of Kings XNUMX, chapter XNUMX, verses XNUMX, XNUMX, XNUMX. Golden calf: Book of Kings XNUMX, chapter XNUMX, verse XNUMX "ninth). It is very possible that Jeroboam and Solomon are nothing more than fictitious characters, a figment of the imagination of the biblical writer who only wanted a story about the destruction of a glorious kingdom. However, it is known that Egypt occasionally controlled the land of Canaan and its control over its religion, and for that reason it is very likely that those golden and copper calves were indeed found in temples in Israel and Judea. The biblical writer referred to Jeroboam's golden calves with disgust, and it is very likely that these gave him the inspiration for the story of the golden calf that the Israelites sinned against at the foot of Mount Sinai near the reception of the Tablets of the Covenant. In the Bible, the word "wagon" appears several times, which means an animal, usually a cow, that has passed through a full solar cycle - we mean a whole year. The word "calf" to describe such a male animal does not appear in the Bible even once. In Egypt they worshiped the sun god whose symbol was a golden circle. The word "calf" which is made up of a wheel or ball and the word "wagon" which is made up of a young animal are from the same root, and this is what led to the common mistake to this day that the golden calf sculpted by Aaron is a figure of a young cattle. But from what is known about the religion that prevailed in Egypt at that time, there is no evidence for this, and it is permissible to assume that the writers of Aaron's history were too wise to convert an abstract and sublime idea into a statue of an animal.

    The story of the creation of the golden vest by Gideon in Oprah (Judges XNUMX, XNUMX-XNUMX) is very reminiscent of the story of the construction of the golden calf by Aaron (Exodus XNUMX:XNUMX-XNUMX). Another name of Gideon is Yerbaal (I think it was his original name and the name Gideon was given to him because Gideon was the Ashra). Change one letter and you will get Jeroboam. I would love to hear your interpretation of this.

  29. jubilee,

    It is always interesting to read your interpretation of the Bible stories. The problem is the decision with which you determine things. If you were to say "Maybe Jeroboam didn't build two calves but two circles and the scripture was written with missing spelling. Evidence of this is perhaps the golden circles that were used in Egypt (?)” It would have sounded much more convincing than your strong assertion. How do you know with such certainty that the hypothesis (which you are not presenting at all as a hypothesis but as a fact) is true?

  30. thanks Michael
    Regarding the state of all its citizens: when the majority of the Jewish population in the country will be ultra-Orthodox, which according to expert predictions is already on the threshold of our home, I will not agree to live according to the laws that will be established then

  31. All the best in life.

    People are looking for something to believe in. They will believe any nonsense that comes from some authority. Here, for example, King Jeroboam made a golden circle [in missing spelling, calf] in every temple, which he copied from the Egyptian cult, and the Israelites worshiped it (this, by the way, served as inspiration for the later writer who wrote the story of the sin of the golden calf at the foot of Mount Sinai).

    At the time, belief in an abstract God was a huge advance in human thinking. The very possibility of converting the victims into idols while maintaining interpersonal moral rules was a breakthrough in world religion in general. However, most people seek a sublime faith for themselves and are unable to part with the pagan symbols that you attribute to the pre-medieval times. As our scientific education expands, we move away from these vain beliefs; However, a scientific education requires from each person a high intelligence and the investment of many years of study, while the tendency to superstition is an inseparable part of the basic psychology with which a person is born.

    Religion is a "supermarket" that tries to sell to a wide audience goods that are a combination of the different concepts. For example, the religion of Islam links rules of moral behavior in the community with total devotion to a metaphysical entity. We are criticized for the metaphysical belief that does not align with our worldview, but we ignore the fact that precisely through this belief it is possible to keep a mob without scientific education in an orderly moral framework. My teacher and Rabbi Yeshayahu Leibovitch already said: "If it weren't for faith, one man would devour his fellow man."

    They are exploiters who gnaw at the country's economy, but within the framework of religion they still maintain some minimum of moral values. If you remove their faith, you will get a total mess country. In my opinion, our struggle should focus on bringing scientific education to the ultra-orthodox community. For example, condition the support for yeshiva students on high grades in the core subjects.

    And of course, keep your sense of humor

  32. It amazes me, after the Middle Ages that Galileo built telescopes, the Polish Copernicus believed that the sun is the center of the universe, unlike Ptolemy, and the church, according to the Bible of course, persecuted him, and he almost fell into the Inquisition
    The Bible is faithful to the author who lived several thousand years in another world, with less than lepers. impurity and demons,
    We live in an era where my father's life span has evolved into commercial flights, we visited the moon several times,
    And a robot travels on Mars, and on other distant worlds, around Jupiter, taking pictures and transmitting information,
    And as much as I understand the Bible, there is not one thing that proves the existence of God,
    As we know, Pharaoh asks who is the God of the Hebrews? The desert generation did not believe, and no one could silence them,
    or destroy them,
    Even on Mount Sinai there was a golden calf, to replace God, and the scroll of Purim with all the exaggerations,
    not mentioning God, even once,
    Where is Judaism? The greatest Hasidism, can no longer just live a community life
    Like many good Christians, they also need a figure of a Messiah King,
    The shreimel grew by eighty percent, since I was a child, Chassidim clothes also got longer like the exile,
    And here is a story that was not,
    A Jew ordered a Shabbat suit, for him and his son, from a tailor named Pincus in an ultra-Orthodox district of New York.
    On a bright Friday they walk, and nuns walk next to them, they immediately approach and compare if the color is the same,
    Oi Abruch, pincus pact os, says the father, one nun asks, what is he saying?
    A nun says I don't understand, it's something in Latin, but not from the prayer.
    All the best. Haim

  33. Pretty.
    I can go a long, long way with him.
    At some point, however, I will have to explain to him that a democracy is by definition a state of all its citizens and he cannot aspire to democracy and oppose a state of all its citizens.

  34. Good luck Michael.
    Fingers crossed from a distance. Too bad you can't vote online. Hope to return to a pleasant country to live in.

  35. jubilee:
    I'm with you.
    Learn the phenomenon and its roots.
    I have already studied.

  36. And this "race" is represented in the eyes of the world, more than any other, by the "mumblers". If we accept belonging to any race, let us take care of equal rights within that race.
    Possible with force and possible with more force. I prefer to study the roots of the phenomenon and understand it as much as possible before I attack.

  37. jubilee:
    As mentioned - the system of laws between man and his fellow man is accepted throughout the enlightened world and you certainly wouldn't want to define all of them as Jews.
    It is acceptable - not because it originates from the Jewish religion but because it fits the natural moral concept of man.
    As far as I'm concerned - the whole matter of peoples and religions is a punishment by which the human race punishes itself for its stupidity. I don't want there to be nations but I have no choice because it was forced on me. I don't feel the need to be ashamed that something was forced on me because I don't feel the need to paint myself as much as possible. Both the force of gravity is imposed on me and the stupidity of the nations and you are the definitions of the nations.
    The view of the Jews as belonging to a certain race exists and is the reason why a state was established whose role is to protect this race.

  38. I am talking about the set of laws called "between a man and his friend", which are briefly embodied in the five commandments attributed to Moses and find broad expression in the legal system of the Torah. These are laws that have no reference to the metaphysical basis of religion. In this narrow sense it is correct to see Judaism as a people. But these laws originate in ancient countries (for example, Hammurabi's laws) and are accepted in one way or another in every reformed country (as you mentioned) and are no longer unique to Jews.

    The view of the Jews as belonging to a certain race was imposed on us by those abominable racial laws (and hundreds of years of pogroms), and we have not yet managed to free ourselves from it. From saying that the Jews are a people there is a short way to define us ethnically/biologically as a race and Zionism as a racist movement and the Jews in general as racists. Therefore, in my opinion, it is forbidden to define the Jews as a people.

    Now we are immersed in the struggle to compare our rights with the privileges of the "mumblers". I suggest that before we attack them for their exploitation, their authoritarianism and their superstitions, we examine how we got to this situation in the first place and work to correct it in a respectable and quiet way without sharpening the polarization and without reaching an explosion.

  39. jubilee:
    It is forbidden to define Judaism as a religion - at least not the term "Jew" that appears in the Law of Return.
    Today there are hundreds of thousands of people that the Nazis would have killed because of their Jewishness.
    If you read the The Nuremberg Laws which you mentioned. You will see that the only reference they have to the Jewish religion stems from the trust they place in its racism - in that it took care of itself to preserve the race.
    It is not for nothing that the laws were called "race laws": they apply to members of the Jewish race.
    The fact that some people believe in these or other laws does not change the role of the state.
    I also don't know which laws you are talking about because all the laws that I personally think are important are also accepted in other civilized countries.

  40. Good. I have tried. I did not make it. Thank you and leave Yeruham, I hope.
    I still believe that Judaism is a religion and not a nation. And even if it includes an element that is not "mumbling" it is still a religion. As a reinforcement of my claim, I bring the fact that even those who do not believe in God do believe in the essential need to observe social laws that are given in the Torah - even if it is from a rational basis (and Isaiah Leibovitch already said that belief in the Holy One, blessed be He, should come from an understanding of the wisdom inherent in the laws of the Torah and not On the contrary [and I add an interpretation that those who accept the moral laws only because they believe in God, are likely to lose them if they stop believing]). Another reinforcement can be brought from the Nuremberg Laws, from which the definition of "who is a Jew" for the purpose of the Law of Return was born.
    The establishment of a state that would serve as a national home for the Jews led to the definition of the Jews as a people, and put Judaism in a paradoxical situation. Israel is therefore a country based on a paradox - and this is only on the Jewish level, not to mention the problems with Muslims inside and outside the country.
    Defining an "Israeli" nationality that is harmless to any religion will take the wind out of the sails of the Zionist state of Israel and will be met with strong opposition.
    I believe that seeing the secular Jew as a citizen with equal rights and duties to the "muttering" Jew (with requested discrimination corrections in favor of the secular) may be beneficial to our cause without harming the state's goal to serve as a home for every Jew wherever he is. Here, I avoided the definition of secularism as a religion but entered it through the back door

  41. jubilee:
    The sentence "There is no such thing as there is no such thing" includes an internal contradiction.
    In general - the fact that someone said something does not make it right.
    There is no secular religion and this is a result of the definition of the term "religion".
    A necessary part of a religion is its system of laws and something that does not have a defined system of laws is not a religion.
    In the accepted religions in our regions - the system of laws is derived from a non-human source and therefore - even though when I said that there is no secular religion I meant that secularism is not a religion, I can also stand behind the original phrase according to which "there is no secular religion" because even a group of secularists who adopt this or that system of laws does not derive the validity of the laws from a non-human source.
    A Frenchman does not need to define himself as having a certain religion in order to gain all the rights due to a citizen and this should be the case here as well.

  42. Golda said "There is no such thing..." On the other hand, Eldad Ziv came out (with an indentation of time and area) saying: "... There is no such thing that there is no such thing". Lest you say that this is nothing but just semantics?

    When the constitution for Israel is drafted, the drafters would do well to define secularism as a religious sect. It is not good to give one religious sect a monopoly over all of Judaism, but from the very definition of the main goal of the State of Israel to be a "national home for the Jewish people", it would be good if the seculars explicitly declared themselves to be Jews. Otherwise, in the national distribution they will receive nothing.

  43. jubilee:
    There is no secular religion.
    There are secular people who live according to certain moral laws and there are those who don't and this is not a result of their secularism.
    Religion, on the other hand, makes sure that people act in a very specific way that is partly moral and partly anti-moral.
    This is because religion is a system of laws and secularism is not a system of laws (and therefore is not a religion).

    Polarization is sometimes a necessary thing.
    If someone decides that his religion requires him to live at my expense and treat me as the donkey of Messiah - there is no reason for me to learn to live with him and for me to accept even a shred of his opinion.
    When there are such people in such quantities in the country - the explosion is not something to be prevented but something to be acted upon.

  44. Hello with me
    Your response is the 417th among the responses. I didn't read all of them, in my fault, but the things you bring up must have been said before and received comments.
    Your response is added to the reactions of those for or against, which more than they innovate something, they point to the severe polarization in which the State of Israel is today. Hazal said: "Even though Israel has sinned, Israel is" and thus allowed the seculars to come in the crowd of the observant and continue to be called Jews. A secularist in exile can assimilate and distance himself from Judaism, and within three generations not be considered a Jew even according to the Nuremberg Laws. However, in the State of Israel, the secular and the observant are cooking together in the same cauldron and clear signs of a religious war are already visible in the country. Secular religion is also known as "anti-religion". Although it does not revolve around the belief that the Creator of the world in and of himself is the one who also commanded us to follow certain diets, it does support moral laws of the type brought to us by Moses (or the biblical author who forged his image - to speak in the language of secularists). It is a religion for everything, and from my experience and knowledge of different religions found in one subjugation I expect an explosion at any moment. In my opinion, the important question is not who is right, but how to prevent the explosion. A response like yours, even though it is moderate and very kind, really just adds more fuel to the fire of hatred. I would love to be fooled

  45. Father, will the Knesset listen to the statistics of the percentage of secular people who work black jobs or sell drugs and sign an income guarantee. Where I live, half the city behaves like this. Did you think for a while that without yeshivas and without religious people and without religion we had the legitimacy to live here at all? About the soldiers, you once asked them who they are fighting with and they want them at home to pray to God that they will win (even if you don't believe it works, a soldier on the front can be strengthened and win only by the thought that they are praying for his safety) and by the way, the problem is not the religious, those who earn between 1 and 100 million a year will have a little left over It makes a difference, a million more, a million less, raise the minimum wage, let people live with dignity, and you'll see everyone go to work with 3850. I'm single, I wouldn't last a week, what will the people say, go to a synagogue to pray and sign an income guarantee, a million more, a million less, that's the problem with the non-religious

  46. Avindav,
    It is true that there are many shameful comments in this thread, but your response does not stand out as overly intelligent or down-to-earth either.

  47. I am amazed by enlightened and wise scientists like you who are actually according to the theory of evolution in total the development of a monkey. I wonder what the next development will be. Maybe we will all turn into frogs. It is impossible to call you ignorant and of course "monkeys"

  48. Be strong and courageous. Well spoken.
    The only way to fight the merchants of religion is through education. The weapon is: science, facts, free thought.
    The money of the poor idlers should be invested in raising teachers' salaries and according to the teaching standards.

    post Scriptum. You are welcome to visit my YouTube channel 🙂

  49. Who says that a person needs to get rid of the world in order for his soul to roll on?
    here! Response 412 (if and when you successfully pass the scissors test) is the proof that the soul of the tzaddik Natan Zehavi was reincarnated in me and he is still alive.

  50. I would like to take advantage of the silence that has remained here in order to bring about a real incitement, something I found among the yellowing pages of Der Stirmer's magazine.

    The parable of the mosquitoes (the mosquitoes, to be precise):
    As we know, fertilized mosquitoes use our blood as raw material to create the next generation of mosquitoes to do us no good. Swarms of mosquitoes (mostly harmless males but some find their way into our airways and are annoying) crowd the air in all our places of residence. They do not live in other areas, because only in our blessed vicinity do they find the foundation so essential to the beginning of their lives.
    The amount of blood that a pregnant mosquito sucks from us is less than a millionth of the amount of blood flowing in our body, and it can be seen as negligible. Therefore, for the sake of peeping that negligible amount, the mosquito gives us a generous parting gift to which we devote much, much more than a million of our attention - and not happily.
    So what have we had so far? A mosquito sucks blood and leaves a stinging bite. I didn't activate you.
    Certain species of mosquitoes also transmit parasites to us which may even cause our death. When it's in our hearts, we mobilize and eradicate malaria. But when it's just a sting (stings a little, but as mentioned not terrible), we don't invest many resources. Faucets continue to leak in the yard, and solar heaters continue to leak on the roofs and we continue to get stung.

    And what use does the mosquito make of the blood it drew from us? It produces mosquitoes and mosquitoes from it that will multiply and continue to bite us even harder. These mosquitoes are ourselves, our flesh and blood. They left us. They live and multiply at our expense. As mentioned, they don't require much. It only takes one small drop of blood to form a swarm of mosquitoes. Many swarms of mosquitoes have many drops of blood. But even that is negligible, because what are thousands of drops of blood compared to the millions of drops that we were able to keep in our possession.

    But the bites, oh, the bites...

  51. First of all - apparently the rabbi does not think that these are his best soldiers and apart from the army, he does not know of any way to prevent them from degenerating into criminals (after all, if they had obeyed him - there would be no such danger).
    But suppose you are right - what will happen if we contribute to the cause?
    We will have God's best soldiers in the army who will fight against the state whenever the rabbi orders them to.

  52. These are the best soldiers, the soldiers of the Holy One, blessed be He, disciplined to the last drop of their blood. If the rabbi says, the Hasidim walk in fire and water and in that you will have no doubts. The trouble is that the rabbi does not send his soldiers to the IDF but to the GMC - we have gone into our designated pocket.

  53. jubilee:
    Are you sure?
    Here is a quote from the article:
    "These are guys who without the seminary would not be in yeshivas but would be walking around the streets," says Rabbi Ben Or to Walla! news. "Instead of walking around the streets of Mea Shearim and burning trash cans, they can go to an officer's course and then become better citizens."
    Are these the officers we're looking for? What about the dodgers who do go to meetings?
    Please note that yeshiva is their first priority and only those who are so selected that they cannot prepare for yeshiva they offer to send to pre-military training.

  54. To 401: What are you offended that I didn't treat you and you're trying to get negative attention? Well, there are a lot of infantiles among the adults, you're not alone. Maybe that will comfort you.
    And as for the survey, it certainly shows that despite the increase in the number of religious people, reservations about religious legislation have increased, and this is further to the discussion with the religious worker who is happy about the increase in the number of religious people. Indeed, there is no doubt that when you enter the world of religion, you understand the problematic, which is why the number of opponents of religious legislation increases because they understand exactly what the danger is and despite this continue to believe, which strengthens the thought of a connection between faith and mental pathology. This also explains the opposition to budgeting institutions that do not teach core studies, civil marriage and archeology. Implicitly, the delusional ultra-Orthodox positions on the various issues were not passed and adopted by the general public, despite and perhaps because it became closer to religion.

  55. Ghost:
    It says that this is a telephone survey.
    Maybe Yair Lapid really lent them his phone.
    You see? I am ready to answer even stupid questions.

  56. Scary fact:
    800,000 ultra-orthodox (10% of the population).
    2/3 of them are unemployed. Those who do "work" work in jobs related to religion only.
    They don't study the core subjects, meaning they don't know English and math at all.

    Soon we will be in a worse situation than Iran.

    It's time to do something. It's time to get out of indifference. It's time to stop it.
    Someone has to do something.

  57. Respondent 399
    When you start a sentence with the words: "righteous like me" and you're talking about yourself, then as far as I'm concerned,
    All the rest of your response, and forgive me, is worth ass.

    Where was the survey conducted at Yair Lapid's house?

  58. To 394 Anonymous: righteous people like me stay in the game long after anonymous people like you turn into virtual dust…..
    True, I don't understand where I'm wrong, maybe because I'm not wrong. You're probably good at flowers and a list of bad checks. My dear, you are right (in what? It is not important, but you are surely right…..).

  59. I read your comment and saw that you wrote a colleague. Although the possibility that you wanted to contact a colleague crossed my mind, but since the response was so vague it was difficult to know if that was really the case when the number 393 was unequivocal.
    In any case - even if the response is addressed to a colleague, it remains pointless and rude.

  60. Machel
    I ask for forgiveness. My response was directed at commenter 392 and not at you. I probably didn't read what I wrote thoroughly, but you probably didn't read my words thoroughly either because then you could see that the word 'colleague' was thrown in there. (smiley apologizes)

  61. To the anonymous coward from 394:
    Did you want to say something?
    So why don't you say anything?

  62. To the respondent 393
    Sooner or later, people like you 'fly out of the game' and they cease to even be a colleague.
    You just don't understand where you are going wrong. (Hint: at least read the last paragraph you wrote)

  63. Amit:
    If you don't understand what the discussion is about then how come you are participating in it?
    The question is not just "who is a Jew" because anyone can answer this question according to their taste as you answered according to your taste.
    The question is who is the Jew for whom the State of Israel was established to serve as a refuge.
    Obviously - a refuge is necessary for the persecuted and a refuge for the Jews is necessary for those who are persecuted because of their Judaism.
    This is what I keep saying, while you insist on "your taste" and since in a democratic country there are many tastes and everyone has the right to influence the laws equally, then if you do not also determine in rivets who is the Jew that is spoken of in the Law of Return - this definition will change and the state will cease to serve the purpose for which it was established and you certainly won't like it either.

  64. To 391-M. Rothschild: I don't understand what the discussion is about?? The law of return must be part of the constitution... Jews have priority in immigrating to the State of Israel. That's all clear. The question is who is a Jew: a person who belongs to the Jewish people or to the religion? What determines? What is more inclusive? In my opinion and to my taste, Judaism first of all defines a people. This.

  65. Amit:
    Regarding Nasrallah - it is possible that you would have decided in his case like the rabbinate, but is this what the entire committee would have decided?
    Equality before the law in a democratic country before Arabs were also allowed to enter the committee and it is not at all certain what their decision was.
    Besides - Nasrallah has many friends about whom you know nothing and they also knew how to play the game.
    If the law of returns that favors the Jewish people is not part of the constitution - democracy will destroy it.

  66. Religious Israeli, etc.:
    You turn the creator into what should be of interest to me and what is not. It is precisely the laws that interest me and the moral deviation of the religious is less important to me. The rules are the ones that are imposed on me from time to time and I am tired of this imposition.
    I also don't want to pay the salary of those in charge of coercion nor the living of the other parasites, but that no longer belongs to the religious laws.

    I interpret the matter of relative morality as follows, among other things:
    In your opinion, the Rambam's ruling (which I mentioned in the link that is full of similar things) that an adult who marries a girl under 3 years old is exempt from punishment is moral. I understand that only to me (who see things in relation to my private values ​​but not in relation to yours) this law is clearly crazy.

    Regarding the rape under the protection of the law, I did not hide anything. I mentioned that the victim was deaf and you - as someone who claims to have better control over the religious taps than me - should have known that deafness cannot be saved by a rescue. This is Jewish law. I guess you've heard of him.

    When I mentioned Emanuel regarding the selection of the rabbi - I meant the story of the schools there, and the racial discrimination in them. People cannot at all rise up in another religious denomination and certainly not choose a rabbi from it.

    You get hung up on the sentence Dina DeMalkota Dina (and it is not difficult to find anything in Judaism and its opposite) and ignore the other things, including the fact that not all the quotations presented to you are prayers.
    It does not surprise me, by the way, that lies, cover-ups and demagoguery are used to defend religion.

    I am aware that the role I took on is easier than yours because it is much easier to defend the truth and that this is probably the reason for the concessions you are making to yourself.

  67. To Michael Rothschild:

    >> Of course you don't have to look far to see religion's attitude to the rule of law.

    Is every quote from a secularist considered "attitude of secularism" in your opinion?

    The Halacha says "Dina Damalkuta Dina", this is a fundamental rule and no one disputes it. There are thousands of rulings that reinforce this.

    People can pray what they want - it's none of your business.

  68. To 382: And what will the rabbi do if Nasrallah turns to him? Rabbi Magyar today. I guess I will decide like him, me and the other members of the committee.
    To 383: I believe that works. Here are answers from Rothschild showing exactly what happens when you let religion explain in general and in particular about democracy. Understand that you are religious and therefore have a biased position to see religion with positive eyes. The rest of the Jews who do not suffer from religiosity can be more objective in their examination of religion. And I will already answer, if you claim that we are biased against religion, because our position is already the clear and necessary conclusion after examining religion. For example, I was in a conversion seminar, among other tests I did regarding religion. And it puts your claim to scientific standards on this site in the right light. I did not see any such standards in your comments. Michael and I give proof of location, references, etc.

  69. to Michael Rothschild

    >> Religion is not a system of values ​​but a system of laws.
    True, but this is a matter for the religious, and should not concern you. You should only be interested in the laws of the Knesset. There they come with values ​​and seek to translate them into Knesset laws. I assume that you also have a value "it is forbidden to steal" which is actually a law, and you are trying to have it become a law of the Knesset.

    >> Some of these laws have really negative values.
    Everyone determines what is negative in their eyes. Democracy tries to sort out everyone's values. I think your values ​​are negative.

    >> There is the mitzvah to stone Shabbat violators and homosexuals, there are these laws and there is no shortage of other examples.
    This is nonsense. You need to learn a lot about the religious legal system. You really lack basic knowledge in the field.

    >> Are you saying that the religious laws are determined by the Knesset?
    The religious laws are none of your business. It's a business of each individual. It starts to concern you when it becomes a law of the Knesset.

    >> What do you think about the fact that in 1966 (!) a deaf woman who was widowed before she gave birth was forced >> to be raped by her married brother-in-law in order to fulfill the (primitive) mitzvah of Haybom?
    I don't know the case, but it is against the Halacha. You don't require yabom, but you do require a shirt. I guess there are details here that you didn't bother to bring.
    In a similar way, I can bring a lot of distorted cases that came from the secular justice system.

    >> What type of regime do you think the chastity guards belong to?
    Sang needs to sit in jail, and if it weren't for the impotent police they would be there too.

    >> Can people choose their rabbi?
    >> I wonder if Bemanuel knows this!
    How do you think they reached their rabbi? God chose him?

  70. A religious Israeli, etc.:

    Of course, you don't have to look far to see the relationship of religion to the rule of law.

    "Advise and sew" is really the anthem of the law-breaking settlers.
    There is also no lack of official statements by the leaders of the ultra-orthodox sect against democracy. Do you really not know that?

    Whether you know and hide or whether you don't know - I will bring explicit things here so that everyone can see and be seen:
    "...and we pray to the Lord of the world, please free us from the curse of the new democracy sent to the world. Because only the Holy Torah is true democracy". Rabbi Elazar Menachem Man Shech (Leader of the Lithuanian ultra-orthodox movement), Book of Letters and Articles, Part Five, XNUMX

    "We must remember one fundamental thing - the entire Knesset is against the Torah. The very thing that people stand up to and declare that they are the "legislators", this is against the Torah from heaven....Even if they vote in the Knesset in favor of observing a mitzvah, this is against the Torah....All the laws that people believe in from their hearts, with a majority vote one way or the other, this is it against the Torah. The representatives in the Knesset are our "lobbyists" [and despite being members of the Knesset] there is no recognition of the existence of this institution called the "House of Laws"". Rabbi Chaim Shaul Karlits (from the rabbinical information of the Lithuanian public), from the newspaper Ya'ad Na'eman 31/05/00

  71. A religious Israeli, etc.:
    Religion is not a system of values ​​but a system of laws.
    Some of these laws have really negative values.
    There is the mitzvah to stone Shabbat violators and homosexuals, there is the These laws And there are no shortage of other examples.
    Are you saying that the religious laws are determined by the Knesset?
    What do you think about the fact that in 1966 (!) a deaf woman who was widowed before giving birth was forced to be raped by her married brother-in-law in order to fulfill the (primitive) mitzvot of Haybom?
    You read that right! This is a case that happened nowadays!
    The case was discussed at the Regional Rabbinical Court in Ashdod before the judges: Rabbis Y. Goldschmidt, M. Lopez, M. Y. Miletsky:
    "A lawsuit was filed before us by Mrs. A against her husband's brother B to rescue her. The above-mentioned claimant was widowed by her husband on: 1966, XNUMX Cheshon, XNUMX (XNUMX) without leaving behind viable seed (children).
    After the ruling that Harshet Titivam - the hibom (having sex with the husband's brother) took place on the XNUMXth of Adar A, and the divorce took place in the city of Rehovot the next day on the XNUMXth of Adar A. "
    (Rabbinic rulings, part XNUMX, page expired).

    No dictatorship?
    What type of regime do you think the chastity guards belong to?

    Can people choose their rabbi?
    I wonder if Bamanuel knows this!

    It's not about passwords - at least not from my side. This is the reality you are trying to cover up. The existence of several dictatorships is not fundamentally different from the existence of one dictatorship.

    Some of the dictatorships also have political representation and the political power of Rabovdia is greater than that of any elected official.

  72. Michael (380)

    I'm afraid your understanding of the sociology of a religious society is incomplete.

    First of all - there is no dictatorship. Everyone is free to choose (a) what to ask the rabbi (b) which rabbi to ask (c) whether to obey the rabbi. Is this a dictatorship? According to this, even going to the doctor is a dictatorship.

    Second - the separation of religion from the state was not better in the past. If anything, the situation is that religious laws are disappearing. The malls are open and factories work on Saturday. On Tisha B'Av, entertainment flourishes, alternative marriages take place, and much more.

    Thirdly - the laws, including the religious ones, are not determined by God but by the Knesset. It is clear that behind the laws there are values. Sometimes religious values ​​and sometimes other values. These are also a choice of people and not of God. God still does not have the right to vote in the Knesset, nor is he a member of the government.

    And besides that - you have to calculate how long it will take. A thing that takes 1,000 years should not bother us.

    In short - the discussion becomes unhelpful when "password" claims are used. On a scientific site I expect a discussion that meets scientific standards. If you claim that something necessarily leads to something - it should be substantiated. If you say that a certain society has a dictatorship - it should be substantiated. And so on everything.

    Religion is a system of values ​​from which behavioral codes are derived. Seculars also have a system of values ​​from which behavioral codes are derived. That's how society is built. You don't like that many people adopt values ​​different from yours - that's legitimate. But attacking the values ​​of others and delegitimizing them is anti-democratic. It is also not helpful because it polarizes society, and also makes it difficult to realize those values ​​that we all share.

  73. Amit

    Imagine that Nasrallah will continue to sit in the bunker for a few more years and during that time he will learn about Judaism and the Torah, and at the end of the process he will know more than you. Then he will also want to come to the State of Israel and convert.
    Now imagine that you are sitting in your office as an assessor who determines who is Jewish and who is not (hereafter: 'convert'),
    And Nasrallah enters you in the office and tells you this and that about the Jews and Judaism and tells you in standard Hebrew: "It burns in my bones to become a Jew!"

    Will you honor the Lord with the right to become a Jew?

  74. Amit:
    I say again:
    You can't give someone an ability they already have.
    Hitler can define Jews however he wants and the fact is that he did.
    He didn't do it according to national conversion and he didn't settle for a Jewish father and mother but dug generations back.
    The State of Israel was not established to define something.
    It was established to solve a problem.
    Defined problem.
    defined by the term "Jew" used by the anti-Semites.

  75. A religious Israeli who works is not poor and neither am I:
    Why do I need to calculate how long it will take?
    The separation of religion and state was better in the past, the situation is getting worse, as soon as you give legitimacy to the interference of religion in the country - you give legitimacy to those who oppose democracy (because it is not possible for laws "set by God" to be replaced by laws set by man). This is the opening through which the dictatorship will enter.
    By the way - within the religious societies there is already a dictatorship. Fortunately for me - I am not yet subject to this dictatorship, but the way things are today - this too will come.

  76. Michael: How do I let Hitler define? I said that the moment you define Judaism according to Hitler's standards, then you are the one who lets him decide. I don't care if he was considerate or not. The man was disturbed (perhaps sane but disturbed) and it has nothing to do with how and according to what he exterminated Jews with the manner in which he attacked us to determine who is Jewish. Certainly not determined by his standards.
    The State of Israel was not established to define a Jew according to the Nuremberg Laws but as a home for the Jewish people and I support this with all my heart as a proud Jew and a patriot. There is no debate between us regarding the justification for the existence of the state, anti-Semitism, and the Law of Return. We agree.
    In my opinion, it is appropriate for a committee or "congress" to determine who is a Jew, but for the purpose of the discussion, we will go with the definition I wrote above: "Anyone whose father or mother is Jewish or who converted a national conversion (non-religious - L-A-V-M-Y)."
    How could a person invent Jewish parents? Alternatively, even today, those who are burning in their bones can convert and belong to the people, what's the difference?
    People without any connection to Judaism will not be able to come and become naturalized for economic reasons.
    Those who want will have to go through screening, some kind of screening and then go through a national conversion institute similar to Y. Beilin's proposal. But this is just a debate about technical matters and it is not really of the kind because we are still in the fundamental debate of who is a Jew. When we reach the bridge of technical matters we will cross it too.

  77. to Michael Rothschild (371)
    In the State of Israel there has been no separation between religion and state for 62 years. How many years do you have to wait until what you consider "necessary" to happen?
    Maybe a country flooded with hatred for religious people will also "necessarily" become a dictatorship?

  78. Amit:
    Even if cosmopolitanism is not attainable - it is a very good measure for comparing things that are attainable.
    It's a little funny to me that you see yourself as the one who "lets" Hitler define definitions.
    Do you think he really had your opinion in mind when he decided who should be destroyed?
    He destroyed people because of their Jewishness and he also did it to people who in your opinion (and even in their own opinion!) did not deserve to be called Jews.

    The State of Israel was founded on the basis of this trauma. This is why the UN voted in favor of its establishment. As soon as the State of Israel ceases to serve the purpose of its establishment, the support it still receives from the world will also disappear (and in my opinion - rightfully so).
    Anti-Semitism still exists and with the Islamization of Europe it is very difficult to guarantee that another holocaust will not occur.
    As they say "the fact that I am paranoid is not proof that I am not being persecuted".

    It's hard for me to understand how you didn't understand what I said regarding people who want to become naturalized here for economic reasons.
    After all, you are not examining kidneys and heart.
    All people will need (in your opinion) to get citizenship here is to learn to say what you expect to hear from them.

  79. I understand, Michael, you are a cosmopolitan. Since this is a completely theoretical view and has no hold on reality, it is a shame to waste unnecessary discussion on it. Although I agree with its beauty and basic idea of ​​abolishing peoples and countries, I believe that cosmopolitanism has no future, there is no doubt that group definitions also create violence with countries and even with football teams....
    I don't want to define another has existed for a long time since the return of the Babylonian exiles to Judah....
    Regarding your definition of Judaism. I believe that it is a bitter mistake and it is difficult to let Hitler define "who is a Jew" you think?? Who is he to decide such a thing?
    I believe that we are living under the trauma of the holocaust and without explaining and detailing I will only say that you defined the Jews according to the Nazi definition is another sign of this trauma. I refuse to live in trauma both personally - and I have experience - and nationally. Try to think for a moment who was a Jew the day before Hitler was elected? Let's say we are conducting the debate in 1932 as representatives at the Zionist Congress. Is it true that now your definition looks less good?
    I didn't understand how you found that: "You want to grant citizenship to anyone who wants to come to Israel for economic reasons and is willing to "play your game".

  80. Amit:
    I totally understood you.
    I just disagree with you.
    I think that states are bad and that the only justification for establishing another state is to provide asylum to the Jewish people.
    I think nations are bad and that you have no reason to support the definition of another nation.
    The people that you want to define is another people that it is possible that some of those who were murdered because of their Jewishness could not belong to it because of your demands (for example - due to a lack of identification with the history of the Jewish people), after all in some cases it means people who tried to assimilate!
    On the other hand, you want to grant citizenship to anyone who wants to come to Israel for economic reasons and is willing to "play your game" and by doing so you fill the country and reduce its ability to absorb more people from among those for whom it was intended.
    I repeat and remind: the definition of Judaism can only be valid at the moment of immigration because it would be unthinkable to deny citizenship to a native of the country or to a person who has already received citizenship in the past, who today does not consider himself a "Jew according to your definition". Therefore, such a definition also does not guarantee anything regarding the citizens of the country over time.

  81. To M. Rothschild: I'm not sure you understood my position. It's clear that I'm against determining a person's religion, Judaism. The religion is frozen and stuck and won't really change because it has to do with holiness, God and other vegetables and they don't change that, at least in the last few hundred years especially since Shulchan Aruch because before that it wasn't like that. Obviously they did change in the past. After all, the Sages threw the old covenant - the Torah - into the dustbin of history by locking it up in the Ark of the Covenant and created a new covenant - like the Christians - aka the Oral Torah: the Gemara, the Talmud and the Halacha. The mitzvot of the Torah, the laws and the instructions were changed, distorted, canceled and reformulated by the Sages who stated that they only "interpret" the Torah and convey the words of God as they were given at Sinai... How are there serious mistakes in those "words of God" - determinations and the words of the Sages This is another question and the answers to it are here:
    Michael, you focus on the country and that's fine. I aim to establish a broader definition that will also be valid for the Jewish state.
    Here you can find a lively discussion on the subject and my position:

    Here is a brief summary of my opinion on who is a Jew and who is a free Jew:
    A "free Jew" is a Jew by virtue of belonging to the Jewish people and Jewish culture. He is a humanist and is therefore liberal, pluralist, enlightened. Also, according to the stories of the Tanakh, the Jews received the Torah as a people, so that even those who accept the religious ethos, the people, preceded the religion.
    The free Jew sees the history of the Jewish people as his own history, that of his ancestors. Culture - including religion - is his culture. The thought, which is mainly within the framework of religion, is the thought. The Hebrew language is his language. This is the Jew without religion, without faith, and certainly without a trace of Halacha. Halacha and religion are in the library as a part of the rooted and worthy of familiarity, God forbid that it upholds it as a binding law that is worthy of living by because otherwise you end up like certain areas in Beit Shemesh, Jerusalem and the B...
    The definition of the Jew, if important, could be for example: "Anyone whose father or mother is Jewish or who converted a national conversion (non-religious - L-A-V-M-Y).
    Within the framework of the State of Israel, it is possible to establish national conversion institutes where those who wish to convert will be converted. The content of the conversion will include the study of history, culture, familiarity with the religion and its various currents, and learning Hebrew. Similar institutes can be created to be adapted to communities abroad. What a beauty, what a pleasure. The convert will not be afraid of doss rummaging through his refrigerator or checking his religiosity. He will not have to go through a humiliating and difficult religious conversion and then be deprived of his Judaism by a rival dos because of a fight between religions.
    The content of the free Jew is being shaped today, in the present, and will continue to be shaped. If many intellectuals are mobilized in a more deliberate, deliberate and systematic manner with intention and understanding we can create an enlightened, national, proper and humanistic Judaism. Of course, religion will have a place, whoever wants to live a religious life personally and not nationally.
    I guess that answers your last comment and any other questions that may arise.

  82. To 369: I don't think it's a matter of "right" or "wrong" because it's a human definition of a human situation and therefore it's fluid unlike the laws of nature, for example. It is certainly possible that in the past a Jew was only defined as one who observes Torah and mitzvot and nothing more. The question is what is Judaism and what is a Jew is subject to the interpretation and determination of the public that identifies itself as Jewish.
    Before I continue, I will explain why you are wrong about 45: Is a Chinese born in the USA in Chinatown Chinese? Of course it is. An Arab who was born in Sweden, speaks Arabic and returns to live in Libya at the age of 100. Is he an Arab? You have already made a mistake in the connection between your place of birth and the popular affiliation. Take the Hungarian minority in Romania. They were born in Romania but are XNUMX% Hungarian. You don't really know what you're talking about...
    I don't know if "everyone" is arguing with me. Let's think about the possibilities for the essence of Judaism: with ; culture; religion. you have more ? Add, but right now we will focus on the 3 options and think logically, sensibly, rationally and not emotionally. Why emotional? Because a religious person will be influenced by the emotion and reject the definition for purely emotional reasons since it will make it difficult for him to accept the definition.
    We will agree that culture includes more than religion and contains religion within it, after all religion is a certain revelation, as opposed to culture which includes other dimensions.
    We can also agree that a nation also includes a culture because a certain nation has a certain culture and in many cases there are subcultures that coexist with the main culture and alternatively some cultures that have something in common between them.
    Now let's see how we would like to define the Jews and Judaism????
    To the religious worker (response 370): It is true that we appropriated the concept of "enlightenment" because we are connected to that period in history in the 18th century, clearly, those people who advocated and supported the development of science, liberalism and democracy, human rights and humanism were called "enlightened" in complete opposition to the government The religion-the church in this case. Enlightenment came late to Judaism, but there was a similar result: the religion was severely damaged. and better this way. If there is a problematic creation in humanity, it is religion, without a doubt, but that is not what the discussion is about.
    In general, it is clear that enlightenment is not found on the side of religion (any religion, by the way), so who will be enlightened if we are the enlightened???????
    Regarding the awards and religion. You are right that the dictatorship is to blame, but its origin is: religion. You are a little confused, it is officially a religious Islamic republic, where, just like in Israel, there is no separation between religion and the state. Unlike Israel where the law is the Sharia religious law (Muslim law) and we are close to that as I have already mentioned because the religious majority sees the Halacha as something proper and good and not an afterthought that should be left as a dead letter for perusal in the books of the people......therefore the dictatorial rule is completely religious...!! And not only that. The whole situation in Iran is horrible because of religion and if you don't understand this it's only because you are religious yourself and true understanding will force you to understand the dangers in our religion. By the way, Judaism and Islam are very close religions: they both have a written Torah, written and written Torah, Shurat literature (Al-Azhar University in Cairo publishes every year volumes of Shurat and rulings by Sunni religious scholars), in both there is no separation between religious and political authority as in Christianity , for example and more. But this requires a broad education that you seem to lack. The main thing is that you put on tefillin and mutter to nothing.

  83. Religious Israeli (371):
    A country where there is no separation between religion and state inevitably becomes a dictatorship.

  84. Amit:
    There are problems that are necessary and there are problems that we create for ourselves with our own hands.
    I assume that your struggle against anxiety indicates that you are aware of this fact.
    But let's leave philosophy for a moment and see that any other definition than the one I gave to the term Jew would be a problem we create for ourselves.
    Are you satisfied with the current situation in which the religious establishment defines Judaism?
    This is, of course, a rhetorical question.
    But how do you propose to test a person's Jewishness? His connection to Jewish culture or whatever?
    Who do you recommend entrusting the decisions in this matter?

    Note an interesting point:
    Immigration laws are the only laws by which a country can discriminate between people without harming its democracy.
    One of the indicators of democracy is the equality of citizens before the law. All the laws except the immigration laws apply to the citizens while the immigration laws apply specifically to non-citizens.
    Therefore there is no problem with the discrimination created by the immigration laws.
    In fact - the immigration laws of all countries are discriminatory laws.
    In some countries the discrimination is based on economic grounds, in others it is based on health grounds, so there is nothing wrong with the fact that in our country - which I remind you was created to be a refuge for the Jewish people - the immigration laws will fall on the basis of origin.
    In the current situation - in which the religious establishment controls the definition of the term "Jewish", Israeli citizenship is denied to hundreds of thousands whom the Nazis would have murdered because of their Jewishness.
    Any system of immigration laws that would deny citizenship to such Jews would, in my opinion, destroy the entire justification for the existence of the state.
    We did not invest all this effort and the nations of the nation did not vote "in favor" to establish "one more Belgium" because Belgium already exists.
    If it is not established within the framework of a real constitution that people of Jewish origin have priority in obtaining citizenship, the very justification of the existence of this country will be harmed.

  85. To the righteous Jewish colleague (the one from response 363)
    You have given yourself the label "enlightened" and it seems to you that by doing so you have made yourself more ignorant. That's so low!
    There is nothing wrong with the Persians returning to their religion - the wrong is with the horrible dictatorship that rules there. As a person who claims to be "enlightened" you should avoid low demagoguery. It is difficult, requires self-control and setting boundaries of the kind that religion preaches, but you may succeed.

  86. Amit Hadzadik
    What's strange is what you don't understand.
    Apparently the term 'Jew' is not really clear to you, but you still insist on explaining it.
    If you haven't noticed, Michael Rothschild defined the term differently than you.

    Which of you is right? (Be sure to say it's you. Or alternatively say that you both are, and then try to 'adjust' your definition to his definition so that you match).

    Anyway, you're wrong.

    'Son of the Polish people' - surely you mean someone who was born in Poland.
    'Son of the Chinese people' - you must have meant someone born in China.
    There is also a son of the Arab or Muslim nation who was born in Egypt.
    And there is also a Jew who was born in Iraq.

    Question A: A person born in Iraq to a Jewish mother, how would you distinguish him from a person born in Iraq to an Arab mother? Or, how would you identify that person as a 'Jew'?
    B: If that person (who was born and lives in Iraq) does not keep the Jewish tradition (let's say his parents kept the tradition) and did not perform a circumcision, but does listen to Jewish music and reads books in Hebrew, how would you define such a person, as a Jew or as a non-Jew?

    If you have such a clear definition of 'who is a Jew' (as you wrote: "such a clear definition of "who is a Jew")
    You should recognize that there is a difference between your definition and other people's definitions. Therefore, the conclusion that is reached is: either you are wrong, or all those who argue with you about the definition 'who is a Jew' are wrong.

  87. To Anonymous 357: I wasn't confused just now I see the other question. You asked a strange question: is it necessary to explain the concept: "son of the Serbian / Polish / Japanese / Chinese people ?? If you can understand this you have answered yourself if not….My dear you have a problem.
    Regarding culture: I don't understand the question. An Indian who lives in Britain and has also absorbed Indian culture but still speaks Indian, eats Indian food, hangs out with Indians, reads books in Indian...isn't his culture Indian?????
    Anonymous I have the feeling that you want to be pampered more than to understand. Such a clear definition of "who is a Jew" and you make it difficult. Listen, my friends, reality is simple only for those of faith, life is black and white for them. In practice, reality is complex and complicated and not always clear-cut. Hope you understood, internalized and assimilated and you feel like a good Jew.

    Lm. Rothschild: The cosmopolitan utopia, which is completely disconnected from reality and has no future, must be distinguished from reality.
    Michael life itself is a problem no doubt at all. Did you know that you can't get out of this life alive? Yes there are problems and the biggest of all is life itself... According to this approach, the term Jew is a "problem". I completely disagree with you on this point. There is no problem with the definition of a Jew; Chinese; Italian.
    Humanity developed as it did and an essential part of being human is the need to belong to a group. Precisely because of this, cosmopolitanism is not possible. Maybe in the next evolutionary stage when we stop being homo sapiens. Maybe.

    To 366- Max Power: No, not all of us will repent, that's clear. The majority yes.
    Society and the country will change beyond recognition. The religious will work and serve in the army just like the religious-national current today. The ultra-Orthodox will continue to live as parasites on the religious and the handful of seculars that will be left here. Trust them.

  88. Responder 362 has no fear that we will all repent, it is against the interests of the ultra-Orthodox, if we all huddle in yeshivots, the ultra-Orthodox will have no one to complain about, who will work, guard, protect with their blood, who will grow food, serve the parasites, therefore this will not happen.

  89. I have already mentioned this many times, but it seems to me that it makes sense to repeat things.
    In my opinion, the definition of the term "Jew" is first of all an expression of the problem.
    This is a term that divides people artificially and in principle it distances us from the vision shared by the Beatles, Einstein and myself - a vision of a world in which the value of all people is equal (and therefore high) and there is no artificial separation between them (such as religion, nationality, country or language) All it can cause are wars.
    Therefore - as a matter of principle, the term "Jew" would have been better if it had not been coined.
    But I am nevertheless a Zionist and advocate for the state of Israel to be the state of the Jewish nation.
    So how does it work out?
    This works out because I do not define the definition of the term "Jew" (which as mentioned is a harmful term) myself (ie - I do not add any distinction beyond what already exists).
    I simply borrow the definition others have defined and use it to combat their malicious intent.
    The State of Israel was ultimately established for one and only reason: the countries of the world recognized that they were unable to protect their "Jewish" residents from anti-Semitism, and therefore a state was needed where those Jews could find refuge.
    This is what made possible the majority vote in the United Nations in favor of the establishment of the state.
    States are also a bad thing, but in the situation created - a Jewish state was considered a "necessary evil" because the alternative of the existence of a persecuted minority without asylum was worse.
    The definition of the term "Jew" should harmonize these facts and therefore the Law of Return - in its original wording - and even before it was hijacked by the religious institutions - was based on the racist definition of the Nuremberg Laws.
    There is nothing wrong with a racist definition in this case because this is "affirmative racism" which is nothing more than a private case of the term "affirmative discrimination".
    Most of the laws have a very uniform structure that can generally be described as follows:
    "If condition X is met, Y must be done"
    In the Law of Return - the condition (X) is the same as the condition of the Nuremberg Laws, but the required action (Y) is opposite.
    In both laws the condition (X) is that the person is Jewish, but while in the Nuremberg Laws the action (Y) was to "treat him as a sub-human who must be destroyed", in the Law of Return the action is to "give him the right to citizenship".

    When you understand this, you also understand what the moral definition of the word "Jew" is.
    In fact we should not define it and we must adopt the antisemitic definition.

    Therefore, to me, a Jew is whoever the Nazis would define as a Jew.

  90. Amit Hadzadik
    I believe you confused me with the anonymous from response 359, and as a result, you did not answer my question (response 357).

  91. Amit Hadzadik
    I believe you confused me with the anonymous from response 359, and as a result, you did not answer my question (response 357).

  92. Lados from 362: Right. Indeed, salt on the wounds, you are a bitch, but you are allowed, you will belong to the majority. Our return to Israel is certain. The deterioration has already begun and its clear signs are visible to everyone. Of course the people of vain beliefs will be happy and the deterioration is nothing but a descriptive word for us-the enlightened-people like you will say that "good days" will come, mercifully. What is it similar to? to the takeover of Iran by Ayatollah Khomeini and the Muslims. They didn't think and don't think they retreated, on the contrary, for them these are better days. And the example I gave is not just because there is a lot of similarity between religious people and it doesn't matter which religion they are from...
    Then you can definitely start planning the celebrations. We, the enlightened ones, are already anxious...

  93. Although the hatred and whining are a bit spoiling, overall good news: many are repenting. The next generation of Israelis will be less busy in the field with their television screen and more busy with Judaism.

  94. The universe was created somehow, either in the Big Bang or in some other process that preceded or replaced the Big Bang.
    We, as part of the world (and therefore also part of the universe) respond to the same laws of nature that were defined in creation.
    Our moral conduct is also included in this.
    Conclusion (sound logic, by all accounts): The creator of the world determines for us how to behave.

    However, the connection between the Big Bang and "You shall not commit adultery" (or any other mitzvah from Daoriyata) is so complicated that we do not know how to begin trying to untangle it. It is not clear, for example, how a violation of a mitzvah that a person observes inside his house results in the rains stopping or plagues. To explain the relationship between offense and punishment, it is possible, and even desirable, to use scientific tools such as sociology, psychology, biology, chemistry, and so on.

    Because of this, the belief that the world was created and also that all human laws are derived from it is indeed legitimate but not relevant to our daily life.

  95. Bijumbom – identity is not a whim of a virtual character with a clown's name…….
    Your settings - including and especially the **recommended** fit the name of the clown. What is a menu in a restaurant that also has **recommended???
    On the other hand, maybe your goal is to mock religious and religious people, in which case I can chuckle from the sidelines with some satisfaction.
    If, God forbid, you are serious (the name will help...:-) please explain what happens to a Jew like me who does not meet criterion 3. Faith in the Creator (or another name: God, God or any title intended to describe a mysterious and invisible entity that controls or influences our lives... .) I'm not Jewish or can I use a "lifeline" from your recommendations????

    For anonymous the distribution of currents is not accurate and your characteristics are really from your imagination. What about the reformers and conservatives and the free Jews??? You have only listed religious currents that have all lost steam and are anachronistic conceptually, conceptually and purposefully.

  96. There are many currents in Judaism and people tend to get confused. I will elaborate a little on the three major currents:

    1. "Orthodox" - from the word hared = afraid of God, wearing black
    2. "Chesedim" - from the word chesed = giving kindnesses, helping the weak without wanting to reciprocate
    There are many other divisions within the two streams mentioned above
    3. MY FAVORITE "The knitted cap" = Mapadal and Bnei Akiva, their slogan is "Torah and Work", they all serve in the army ("Beinish"), and work in the farm in elective positions.

    But we are all Jews, without exception even the secular ones.

  97. 1. Did you get a word across?
    2. Is your mother Yehuda?
    3. To believe in the Creator.

    Congratulations, you are Jewish

    4 *recommended*. Observance of mitzvot (even honoring parents, helping the poor (charity), treating others.

    To talk to God you don't need an appointment, you can at any time and in any way (He is the "place of hearts")

    5. *recommended (2)* to downplay/not commit transgressions.

    You can start from the Ten Commandments, which are divided into 5 commandments to do and 5 prohibitions not to do.

  98. Amit Hadzadik
    "A Jew is a person belonging to the Jewish people whose culture is the Jewish culture."
    Please explain to me the concept of 'son of the Jewish people'.
    Question B: So-and-so's culture is mixed. She is also Jewish but also several other cultures. What does it say about him, that so-and-so is Jewish or non-Jewish based on this criterion?

  99. What does it matter who you are? It is intended for all readers it is not personal against a person. The point is to convey positive meme-ideas as a counterweight to negative memes (those spread by religion in particular and faith in general).
    Who is a Jew - A Jew is a person belonging to the Jewish people whose culture is the Jewish culture. Part of the culture (in most cultures a main and significant part both from the historical and the practical point of view) is religion. To which nation do you belong, what is your culture (language, values, literature and art and everything included in "culture") If you answer correctly, you will know if you are Jewish or not.
    Now what are the distortions and deviations that have occurred in public discourse and general understanding?
    What happened is that the religious "took over" the concept and the term "Jew" at the same time as it was neglected by the non-religious Jewish discourse. This criminal neglect of the Hioloni caused the wrong and distorted identity of a Jew with a religious people. Every time you talk about "Jew" in a subconscious, instinctive and obviously uncontrollable way, in the mind of the speaker, a doss with a cap and a wig is pictured. This is how the far-fetched formula took root in the most profound way from the principle of: Jew = religious. And hence anyone who is not religious is not a Jew or at most a disabled / handicapped incomplete Jew (delete what is unnecessary). And what about patriotic and proud Jews who are not religious at all and even atheists???? Is their Judaism less, damaged or inferior compared to the common Jews.?????
    Well, the answer is of course: no and not in the Greater Israel.
    You can continue but this far for now.

  100. I have neighbors who smoke cigarettes and it annoys me. First of all, they make me a passive smoker, and I heard that passive smokers get lung cancer even more than active smokers. When I try to wake them up, they start at me like I'm Jura, that I'm really rambling. I'm going to complain to the house committee, but they smoke too. I hang newspaper clippings at the entrance to the stairwell that talk about the harm of smoking, but they say "hahahahaha" and tear the clippings to pieces.
    I say to myself: "There must be something useful in cigarettes, because otherwise how is it possible that there are so many smokers?!". I go to Michael Rothschild and he says to me "Fool in the world! Have you read Dawkins yet?" "Yes", I answer him. "So know that the memes of the smokers behave exactly like the genes of the religious. They are selfish. No one is held accountable." "But if all the smokers die, no selfishness will help their victims," ​​I insist. "Don't worry," the expert explains to me, "suckers are not dead. They just change."
    In short, Yehuda-Bijombum and all the rest, why are you snoozing?

  101. Amit Hadzadik
    First of all please don't get confused, I'm not a 'bijumbom'. But I have a question for you:
    You write that you are "still a good, moral and nice Jew to myself and the environment."
    Could you please explain to me, what is this or who is a Jew?

  102. To Bijumbom and his imaginary friends (are you suffering from virtual split personality?). I understand that apart from Yehuda, A. Vinerman, Anonymous and more, you also have a secret and hidden friend - God or God or what do you call him? Because there are many versions: the Creator, Hashem, Dushem, and more.
    Listen, there is no tax on talk and chatter and like any good Israeli you take advantage of it as much as possible (there is a buffet - let's load the plates....). Niha
    From the flood of nonsense I will refer to the matter of science and not for your sake as for the many critics who, God forbid, will not misunderstand your words.
    Your understanding of science is wrong, flawed, fundamentally false and distorted.
    Please see I will use the words of Prof. Keva as a basis for my words (I don't remember his exact title, but from the head of Bar Ilan University). Today he referred to the dismissal (finally) of Dr. Avital from the Ministry of Education and said that Newton was one of the greatest scientists and people in humanity. He discovered and developed science in an astonishing way and when Einstein came he found mistakes in his theory. Does this disqualify Newton? no and no. In some situations his teachings are correct and can be used. Moreover, it served as a foundation stone for the further development of science. The fact that science is developing is presented by you, as by religious believers in general, as some defect or deficiency that points to the truth and correctness of the faith...well, it really suits the clown Amnon Yitzchak and his friends. After all, you, Amnon Yitzchak and all believers are not ashamed to use computers, telephones in cars and airplanes, advanced medicine and other things that science has given us: electricity, solar energy and much more and at the same time mocking science and its "instability". In opposition you bring the "holy Torah" and religion. They do not change, therefore this is the "victorious truth". Probably true like Winnie the Pooh stories don't change and are true.
    Except you didn't answer my claims.
    In addition to the fact that as a Jew I rest and do not work on Shabbat, but, by God, I cut toilet paper and open a bottle of Coke on Shabbat and even travel, God willing, and generally go to a restaurant to eat a delicious pork steak. And I'm still a good, moral and nice Jew to myself and the environment.

  103. Responder 357 Do you want the phone number of Abarbanal Hospital? Don't worry I'm sure they have a warm attitude to new patients.

  104. Yair, here is a good and excellent question. How do you explain that as education and socioeconomic status increases, the percentage of atheists increases and the number of believers decreases dramatically?
    How is it that the more enlightened and advanced the country is, the more atheists there are and the less religious?
    How is it that among academics, as the level of education and degrees increases, the number of religious people decreases?
    Oh, how? What do you think ?

  105. Year:
    it's simple!
    Mathematicians do not do science. They explore the logically possible worlds and not necessarily the one that actually exists.
    It should be remembered that even if the percentage of believers in God is higher among mathematicians, it is also small among them.

  106. By the way, it took you a long time to come up with the story with the boyfriend.

  107. Sometimes you are Bijumbom, sometimes you are Yehuda, sometimes you are Anonymous and sometimes you are Orly Vinerman.
    Of course in all cases these are your imaginary friends and not you.

    I understand that you are used to hanging around in the company of fools who believe in anything.

    Everyone used to be religious. Not that they necessarily believed the same nonsense as you, but they had their own nonsense.
    More than that - if you look further you will see that once upon a time they were all monkeys.
    Is this a reason not to move forward?
    Thanks to the discoveries of scientists (also religious, because in the past almost everyone was religious) we understand more and more and therefore we have freed ourselves from the vain beliefs of the past.
    This is manifested in many ways and for example HERE וHERE

  108. The father of genetics "Gregor Mendel" is also a monk who believes in the Creator, and like him many others who were religious and scientific. I really recommend reading "Teacher of the Perplexed" to everyone, a heavy and profound philosophical book.

  109. post Scriptum. 2

    You know that the Minister of Science Rabbi Prof. "Daniel Hershkowitz". a religious person

  110. Look, I don't know how you were hurt in the past (according to your words), but don't generalize an entire group because of your past personal relationships with a minority.
    And PS.
    By thinking that I impersonated 2 people. I am aware that you are the editor of the website and you can easily see the IP address of the computer. Therefore, I was afraid that you would draw this erroneous conclusion. Because my friend who was next to me was dying and wanted to add something in his language.

  111. 1. I really really want to understand where I made a mistake and hurt you, by telling you "I love you as my brothers". And I still stand by that, you are Jewish by blood, a part of me and there are really many situations in which I feel a kind of "free love". It is for these reasons that I enlisted in my service As a fighter to protect my people, look I'm not as strong in writing as I am in speaking, and I'm sorry for hurting you and I really want to understand how you were hurt by my words.

  112. End:
    I also want to thank them and you for the entertainment you provide - whether in impersonation (some of the names you mentioned are the same person) - whether in lies that are so easy to detect - and whether in a tangible presentation of the ugly face of religion

  113. Something is moving up there. The Rebbe of Belez received the head of ACA for a conversation. Maybe the heavens listened to Father Belzovsky?

    To the discerning Anonymous, 337: Here and there the contents of my drawer seep out

    Larya Seter: And I wrote about those born in March-April because even though they were born in the spring they are still wrapped in a lot of wool, I wrote about those born in May-June that they absorb more daylight than the others and so on. But the acetagneins claim to know much more than character traits. They also know, for example, about fate and reincarnation, and this should not be inferred only from the changing of the seasons.

  114. Many thanks to Moti, Yoav, Yehuda and Bijumbom (and others) for the clear and fascinating comments. Often your comments help me, as a reader, to clarify articles and even expand beyond the subject of the news.

  115. Yuval - I separately came up with the idea of ​​a certain explanation for astrology under the influence of the season of the year in which the person was born. I thought about this after reading an article by Eysenck - a British psychologist who conducted the introversion-extroversion test, in which he claimed to have found a correlation between the result a person achieves in this test, and the season of the year in which he was born. I remember an example of the explanation I gave - the baby is "suffocated" in clothes and clothes, compared to being free and loose in light clothing.

  116. To Michael with an apology.
    I read and internalized all the articles and comments you referred me to when they were still fresh. Obviously, I may be quoting from them now subconsciously without bringing salvation to the world. On the other hand, it is not impossible that Great minds think alike (smiley)

    To a colleague with great appreciation.
    Let me tell you a short story from my life history. Many, many years ago, 35 to be precise, I fell into the company of a dear Jerusalemite. He was, not on us, ACM. I said to him: "What is this strange belief of yours in the influence of planets on the qualities and destiny of man?" He answered me as a hater: "If you don't understand it, you can't criticize it." I picked up the gauntlet, as they say, and studied astrology. I even wrote a book about it called "Astrology Without Stars" in which I suggested that the season of the year in which a baby was born (characterized, for example, by the length of the day and the amount of light that reaches the newborn's eyes) determines something in the direction of his development. Later we parted ways, but I still remember his lesson. When I say here that I detest those who use vile methods of brainwashing, it is from personal experience. When I despise people who can't stop smoking or who easily fall into the clutches of the missionaries, this is also from personal experience.

  117. To Yuval and Michael: First of all, Michael, thank you for the links so it's very easy to refer to. Beyond that it is simply a pleasure to read your words and your lips will water and they are sweeter when you see the reactions of all religious or semi-religious people of all kinds here……..
    A. The belief-just to reinforce things was an interesting experiment that tested monkeys and children who are mentally at the level of monkeys and let them repeat certain actions to get to candy. While the monkeys gave up unnecessary actions in the order of the actions and took only the necessary actions to get to the candy, the human puppies did not learn even after several times to give up the casual actions that were of no use (in Kabbalah see: prayers, tefillin, certain clothing, etc.) and sat down and repeated with vigorous precision On the order of actions to get the candy....there is an evolutionary advantage in this - the matter of trust and imitating the adult - that's why we advance from the monkey, but at a certain point and in order to advance you have to mature and an adult already knew (like the monkey) to perform only the necessary actions to receive the candy (you shall not kill , you shall not steal, etc.) and give up the meaningless actions (various blessings, "Shabbat observance" in a religious style, the only thing to be said about it is: delusional.)
    The shortness of faith and religion embody the infantility of the believers. In fact, these are adults who have not fully matured, and an article can be written about this - the shortness of the cloth, but pay attention to the expressions of the believers: Our Father in Heaven, Father Rahman, God's Children, etc. that allude to and support my intention.
    B. Religion and faith - I can suggest another concept that must be attacked and understand the danger in it - faith.!!!! If we treat faith as a virus that causes diseases, we can see different types of diseases as a result of faith: religions, Nazism, fascism, communism, cults of all kinds and much more. This will solve many problems in terms, concepts and clarifications. To understand exactly this point, you should read the article: "On faith" by Peri Atti, published on the Freedom website.
    C. The survival of the Jewish people - I can add this to Michael's excellent and wonderful ideas and arguments: religious people of all kinds always consider the miraculous survival of the Jews to be a miracle. Even if we assume that we survived only because and thanks to religion it does not mean that it is still valid and we must continue this collective stupidity. If in the past she was not stupid, now she is.
    But if we are talking about survivors, what about the Chinese or the Japanese? They survived more successfully - both preserved their traditions and physically, demographically preserved their people while the absolute majority of the Jews were lost in various and varied ways throughout history and only a tiny handful remained (how many are there today? 18 million? That's nothing...). So what is better to be Chinese? And the cockroaches survived the longest of all the animal species (and if I am factually wrong, take the oldest animal that survived) so what does this say about the cockroach and its essence?? What is the point of the religious with this survival as if "here we survived, we are just, worthy and heroes" such nonsense. More on that, we survived better thanks to the infidel secularists who kicked religion and tradition, became Zionists and established a state. Religion is not really recommended in order to survive and for that Michael explained and history itself demonstrates this well - if we are in 500 BC and we want to make sure that we will have the faintest and lowest chance of surviving the next 2500 years the best thing to do is to be Jewish..!!!
    And one last thing: a well-known car advertisement states: "The fact that you are breathing does not mean that you are alive". In the context, see A. Sharon. He also survives. Well, this is something you would recommend to your children - to survive life like this ???.

    Lyoval: In the last point I also answered the matter of the people's survival thanks to religion - even if that is true, we have made progress and it is worth browsing further. Once upon a time, the best way to get from place to place was to ride a horse...
    Regarding the Jewish garden - being Jewish means belonging to the Jewish people and culture. There are so many stupid and wretched Jews that the definition of a Jew as "belonging to the world's intellectual elite" is fundamentally false. It is true that among the intellectual elite the number of Jews exceeds their relative share in the population and we have something to be proud of - as Jews.
    Regarding the garden of the Jewish genius: there is no such thing. There is a genetic closeness between the Jews themselves, which indicates a common origin of the Jewish people.

  118. To the righteous Jewish colleague, thank you for your beautiful and instructive words.

    The question of whether the Jewish people would have preserved their uniqueness without the core of religion can be debated quite a bit - if you want.

    If you agree with me that to be Jewish is to be among the world's intellectual elite, please express it explicitly. If so, this can serve as a good starting point for clarifying some interesting questions such as whether there is a gene for Jewish genius or is it a meme that survives several generations after the wigs are cut.

  119. To Bijumbom, in answer to your question why your comment was blocked. You are towering above us, those who operate the site, and you want to appeal to surfers above our heads.

    Let's take for example the sentence: "I hope you will truly understand, I feel love for you as my brother, and a prophetic vision due to faith. I wish you understanding, and really read the "Teacher of the Embarrassed"".

    Does it occur to you that I will give you a stage after such an attitude?

  120. For response 329-Yovel Chaikin:

    No dos can make a fortune from anything related to religion unless he speaks to the ignorant (even the very wise and educated can fall into religious demagoguery...). As usual, the classic mistake of here, look at how many Jews have won the it is appropriate to sharpen, enlighten, educate and teach. First a simple definition: Judaism = nation and culture. Part of culture (every culture in our world) is religion and in Jewish culture religion has a central part (too central since the 19th century....). The problem that always, almost always, including here is a misidentification of Judaism=religion. Bitter mistake. Religion is part of Judaism. If I am not religious and even oppose religion, this does not negate my Jewishness which refers to the national and cultural affiliation. Just understanding this point is worth a lot.

    When this is clear, let's see and learn that the Jewish religion did not contribute or bring any scientific innovation to the world. Nada is nothing. zero. It is true that the Jewish religion had achievements in the field of thought, thought and even morality, but all this is already old. Since then, religion has been severely damaged from A-D to the point of becoming unnecessary, irrelevant and worse than that: harmful to believers and non-believers alike. If we put aside the achievements of religion for a moment and focus on science, since this is a scientific site, we will learn and see that every Jew who innovated, discovered, invented, devised and found anything in the fields of science did so without any connection to religion, even if he was religious.

    I will explain: during the Enlightenment period in the 18th century, the Jews began to leave the shackles of religion and the darkness of faith to the freedom of humanism and the light of the Enlightenment. In the 19th century the phenomenon spread and Jews began to acquire a general education. All, but all the famous Jews who won recognition and achievements did so not from Gemara, Talmud and Kabbalah studies but from general and scientific studies. even the religious in them,

    Let's take the Nobel laureate Prof. Oman (the only religious one as I imagine all the others are supremely secular). He did not win the Nobel because he found his revelations in the Talmud, but because he went to study at the academy. The studies of the Talmud and religion have no contribution whatsoever to the greatness of those Jews. The only thing to praise religious study in a "room" or in a yeshiva is that it is indeed a technique that sharpens the mind, is useful and improves thinking and memory processes. That is why it is easy for Jews to learn and succeed. A-B-L it has nothing to do with God, faith or religion. This is an excellent method of study for its time that developed a long time ago and it is a considerable achievement and deserves all the praise of us Jews (yes, even non-religious and atheists like me can and must applaud their beautiful cultural heritage and be proud of it).

    The problem is that this method is done in such a retarded frame of mind that all its advantages are null and void. It is appropriate to change education in general and some principles can be taken from the religious teaching method. But the issue of education in schools, which was established in the 19th century in general and has hardly been updated since then, is a completely different issue and not here.

    The vast majority of Nobel laureates, Jews who achieved achievements and recognition did so after cutting their sideburns and discarding the tassel and cap. In other words, they were distinctly non-religious and all their achievements did not arise from religion.
    In conclusion: As Jews, we can be proud of the achievements of our people who represent us with respect, it is possible and appropriate. This cannot be linked to religion at all.

  121. Thank you Avi.
    And for the very comparison between genes and memes, there are genes that have survived even though they are harmful. I like to use sickle cell anemia as an example. It is considered harmful as it is a sure cause of death at a young age, but at a "low dose", understood as a recessive allele, it inoculates another bundle of trouble (malaria). The direct damage of religion to science is clear. But from the very fact that the proportion of Jews among Nobel Prize winners is a hundred times greater than the proportion of Jews among the human population in general, Yehuda-Bijombum can make a great fortune.

  122. for Jubilee
    Yehuda and Bijombom are the same person, trying to prove us that we are against his private belief, and asking questions that he thinks are rhetorical. The very fact that he comes under two names indicates the honesty of his intentions. In fact, religion has preserved itself because it is a meme. And whence it has the same properties of a gene, only that its propagation is cultural and not genetic. And not only religions are like that, for example Israeli music is also a meme, which is constantly changing to adapt itself (among us, not necessarily for the better).
    There were a lot of extinct memes, for example the religion of the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Greeks, the Romans. The religious Jewish meme has also undergone a change in the thousands of years of its existence, and I am not sure that 50 years ago they would have thought of closing sidewalks to women in Mea Shearim as well. Just like the Christian kindergarten in the USA (it is not clear which one because there are over 200 different memes), which used to not deal so much with the subject of abortions and today is ready to sacrifice itself, the main thing is to kill doctors who perform abortions. Not to mention the deadly bin Laden meme.
    The more secular the society becomes, the more violent the religious memes become to promote themselves.

    Just because their name manages to penetrate the minds of millions of people does not make it right. Unfortunately, all of these caused damage to the only meme that should have been the standard - the scientific meme.

  123. Yehuda. Speak for yourself. And in the reply that was blocked you write "I feel love for you as my brother". Well, this is called condescension in Hebrew.

  124. I believe that every person has a spark of faith and the fact that in times of trouble we roll the poor up and start getting closer to her" I'm sorry that only when it's difficult do we get closer to her"

  125. Bijumbom, with such spelling errors you still claim that my and Michael have a divine spark?
    And you want us to believe that? The truth is, we don't believe it even without spelling errors.
    It was not for nothing that the Chabad people demanded the dismissal of Mai Tun where I worked, because they understood that I am not the type of Histadrut secularists, that is, those who bend towards the ultra-Orthodox. And when they realized that I was sticking to my decision to leave Ramat Aviv, they resorted to physical and financial violence. To this day I have only seen the ugly sides of the religion and no response full of spelling errors or written in beautiful Hebrew will change this fact.

  126. Ruby:
    You are rambling, but since all the things you said have already been answered even within the current discussion, there is no point in trying to repeat them because just as you have not read them until now, you will not read the repetition of them either.

  127. To my father
    I have no problem with the response on the Freedom site
    I'm not defending religion, I'm just commenting
    That the subject is not a scientific subject!

    To the same extent, you could write an article about the occupation and the need to end it
    or the morality of eating meat,
    I just don't think it's the right stage.

    Regarding the subject itself, I think his presentation is shallow
    There is no separation between religion and faith (completely different things)
    There is no separation between different currents and between different ideologies
    There is not a single word in it about the incredible extent of ignorance in the battle
    "Secular" or unbelieving people who according to your perception were
    They should all be avid science buffs.
    It has no comparative parts about our situation today vs
    Older periods in history, in short this is not an article
    Scientific, it's an opinion piece that has something to do with politics, ideology
    And to the issue of education in Israeli society and as I have already mentioned, he

    Religion and faith, contrary to what you probably think, is not intended
    Just to explain the world around, in my opinion she gave a lot more
    Ancillary products such as a sense of unity, a sense of meaning, hope
    And comfort, what to do when science doesn't replace them and people don't progress
    Like you and they still need the same things that accompanied the decline of humanity.
    I have no respect for religion, I have respect for people.
    I'm the first to refuse to come to the demonstrations with you, but I'm the last to agree
    To involve politics and ideology in so-called scientific articles, why?
    Because I love science with all my heart, and think that bringing the discourse into science
    The religious belief or ideology is a tremendous damage to science and its benefit is simple
    Does not exist, except for nods from atheists, it has no value! - Simply garnished...
    And the damage-any person who believes (religious New-Age or just someone who believes that there is something
    beyond our understanding) who reads your irresponsible nonsense will give up for once
    The next one is also about an article about quantum mechanics - because it will occur to him that science is against it
    Faith... and he is not! He just occasionally refutes certain beliefs...and my father heard,
    If you look at history, people got used to…

    One of the reasons for the difficult wars between religion and science stems from a misconception
    That evolution is against faith, or that the conclusion from it is that there is no God.
    There can be no such conclusion to a scientific theory! There is no connection between
    A theory for the development of life to faith in God, the only charged meeting
    Between the two it should have been only about how! This theory is purely contradictory
    the simplicity of the creation story, but if instead atheists use
    In evolution as Kardom to dig their beliefs (belief that there is no God) the damage
    To study such a beautiful theory is impossible, you are exactly in the same place!

    But the choice is yours…

  128. Hello Ehud.
    I was very positively impressed by your writing. From every point of view I checked your beautiful comment I saw only positive sides. At first thought I had things to clarify, but this is a clear example of the saying "everything that adds diminishes".
    I enjoyed it very much and I also lovingly took your review into consideration.
    Yes, there will be many like you in Israel.

  129. To Yuval Chaikin, in my opinion you are wrong and acting out of personal emotion that is negative for a certain group, Michael, in contrast to you, you hit a bull's eye on the source of the problem. "Enoch to the boy according to his way also because Yezkin will not depart from her." I studied in "unofficial" ultra-orthodox circles ("Agguda" and "Mori" (from a Yemeni teacher) mainly in the linguistic field of Sages with the addition of folkloristic midrashim). I spent most of my education in religious Zionism, I experienced the magic of the miniature flag, the cardboard hat and the bag of sweet raspberries for those who remember ;). But, compared to those who studied only religious education, my mother has a master's degree in education, a Zionist who belongs to the Histadrut, I also have close family members who are teachers of education, mathematics and computer science, all of them religious with practical rational thinking. Most of them "defected" to the religious Leumi side, this is one of the reasons for the doubt that was instilled in me even a little unintentionally, in the casualness of the meeting and the conversation between them, the logical doubt arises, the hidden control against the man and indirectly against the restrictions against them, which prevent women from realizing their potential within a strict religious framework and what The limit of definitions in Judaism? Ask a child, "doubt" should not be too much to arouse, but the age range is limited, when the thought is still fresh/innocent and you ask questions that go through every person living in modern society, questions from the fabric of modern life, to organic and inorganic forms in nature and from there to the cosmos himself. For the rest of the ultra-Orthodox and some of the religious, I received a partial education that was too open, "no shwin". Another thing, math tutors (even at the lowest level) in the religious/Orthodox world are expensive, at least compared to the average income of an Orthodox/Orthodox. In any case, the majority of the ultra-Orthodox do not see mathematics as a necessary profession compared to studies of Torah, Mishniyot and Gemara. (Although this profession is respected in its place, see the value of Rabbi Gamaliel who dealt with arithmetic and geometry in the Talmud and not only him). Computer science in general is considered a luxury, it exists among upper-class ultra-Orthodox and is usually a standard among national religious people. Thirdly, the mathematical and scientific level of the ultra-orthodox is much lower than the level of the religious nationals, I am not arrogant, but unfortunately this is the reality.
    In my humble opinion, there has been more deterioration, especially in the exact sciences niche, there used to be ultra-Orthodox male teachers of exact sciences, today you will find fewer of them and if you do find them, they will be women. I link the decline in the studies of the exact sciences to the entire deterioration of the state, exact sciences naturally arouse doubt, in their very existence, they have no religious or ideological intention, they are a goal in itself, that's their charm.
    The schools of the "Aguda" "Shas" and "Beit Ya'akov" in my humble opinion, do not cooperate with the "Zionists" at least not as in the past, they used to look for us, from lectures in the sciences, cooperations that today are considered "Zionist" in their eyes , like sporting events. But not all of them yet, the internet revolution has once again opened a narrow, but more accessible and easier opening for science. Society as a whole has become less solidary, not only between the secular and the religious, but between the religious and the ultra-Orthodox, between the ultra-Orthodox Zionists and the (relatively) modern, the ultra-Orthodox community and the ultra-Orthodox community and this inedible nucleus of the "Ntori Karta", the "Satmars", "Toldot Aharon" And everything in between and I don't even mention the other divisions that are related to religions, ethnicities, sectarianism and political bias. In my opinion, the solution should come from the volunteering of the educated sector in the field of exact sciences for the benefit of underprivileged children, it can be argued honestly, modestly and considerately, these studies will build a strong economic backbone in the future for your child, there is no trace of damage to religion and belief, but on the contrary, we are the scientific "flour". Chabad also, according to their method, come in an innocent way (or in the other side's way) in order to give a tradition to a Jewish child who does not know what the "Simcha Torah" time is, for example, without the initial intention of converting him, at least not directly, the idea is the same idea but from the side of science , for example: a body that will give lectures, reinforcements and camps for free to the underprivileged, many of whom come from the ultra-Orthodox side, non-governmental bodies for some reason create less alarm in the hearts of the public compared to governmental bodies, in my opinion this is also one of the reasons for the success of Chabad, but not only.

  130. I got caught up in my racist bullshit

    I despise and despise. He despises the weak of character who fall as easy prey in the arms of drug dealers and soul hunters and despises the dealers of illusions who exploit the weak of character to make a fortune. Two months ago I got into an argument with an Islamic missionary. I asked him a so-called hypothetical question: "If you were a drug dealer, would you also consume your goods?" He answered me "unequivocally, no!". I did not share with him my conclusion, according to which he does not at all believe in the same Allah that he is trying to sell to the seekers of meaning who fall into his net. But here, on the knowledge site, I was caught in my act. All praise goes to you, and rightfully so.

    I said "by nature they are poorly educated". Education is not easily acquired. It requires effort, and not every person is willing to make an effort. A person is born uneducated and if there is nothing or someone to push him to learn, he will be uneducated - because of his nature. Convincing a child that there is a man in heaven called God who rewards good and punishes evil seems to me to be much shorter, more efficient and easier than teaching him math and science. Perhaps I am wrong on this point, because I rely mainly on personal experience as a former child who, at the age of four, long before he learned to read and write, was already being brought up on my lap with stories of the lion in color pictures. I really believed in the story of Adam and Eve and the snake, Noah and the ark and the flood, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and another priestess and priestess of the holy trinity. It took me another twelve years to learn to solve a quadratic equation (I only learned about complex numbers at the age of 22, but that's because I was kicked out of high school at the age of 16). I have no argument with you about your words: "Religion is a collection of memes (?) that preserves itself. This is a feature of the religion and not of the believers. The believers only fell victim to it, just as the body occasionally falls victim to a collection of genes that preserves itself." But investing effort in educating the potential victims would surely have saved many of them from falling into the net.

    The previous generation of Israelis produced a good number of Nobel laureates. The next generation does not sound promising at all, to say the least.

    While writing the things, Sam Harris is playing in the background, convincing yet convinced. Dawkins' book will wait until I can get my hands on it. Thank you for the referral.

  131. jubilee:
    It's hard to be more racist than that.
    What is "they are by nature poorly educated"?
    Do you think this is their nature?
    In your opinion - if they had been brought up differently they wouldn't have had a chance?
    Most religious people are religious because they were tamed to it as captive babies. There is nothing in their nature that makes them religious. If they had been brought up - for example - in my home - they would not have grown up to be religious nor would they have smoked drugs. Instead - they would become contributing citizens in society and would exhaust their true natural potential.
    Religion is a collection of water that preserves itself.
    This is a feature of the religion and not of the believers.
    The believers just fell victim to it just as the body occasionally falls victim to a collection of genes that preserves itself.
    I've written a lot about it here on the site, but I really think you should use the option to open a brain before the option to open a page here and respond to the offer to read Dawkins' book - which I suggested because I'm tired of writing the same things over and over again before you respond to my words that (using his book of Dawkins) contain all the answers to the questions you raise - including the one you raised in your last comment.

  132. Thanks to Michael for the opportunity to speak here

    It's a question of twists and turns. The statistical information shows a correlation between two phenomena, and we are invited to assume that A causes B. However, as usual in my method, I assume that there is a third factor that affects A and B simultaneously. The people who degenerate into religion are by nature poorly educated (along with some other unlikable traits, such as poor moral standards). Therefore, in my opinion, it is not religion that lowers morality, nor is poor morality what encourages religion, but the natural proliferation of the uneducated is what degrades morality and at the same time encourages religious awakening (a very similar picture can be seen in the Gaza Strip, where the natural proliferation is one of the fastest In the world, the entire education system revolves around the Koran).

    If you want, you can be dragged into politics. Do you remember the month of June 1977, "The Revolution!"? That's when the deterioration in education as part of the "to do good with the people" began. It's a slippery and scary slope because we've already passed the point of no return.

  133. jubilee:
    Regarding your 312 response.
    I have already answered many people many times about everything she says thanks to religion and I don't have the strength to repeat the things again and again.
    That's why I suggest you only: read the book "Is there God?" Or in English (the real name) The God Delusion - written by Richard Dawkins and you will see why each and every one of your arguments is wrong.
    You should also watch the following video:
    And be sure to also watch the question and answer section at the end (in which statistical information based on the influence of religion on the level of morality in the country is presented)

  134. Yuval, why do you think that if it weren't for the radicalization, those people would be addicted to drugs? Are you ultra-Orthodox? No. Are you addicted to drugs?
    And free food, as far as I'm concerned, these are robbers..
    Good people here and there there are bad people has nothing to do with religion..and there are a lot of bad things that have happened to humanity precisely in the name of religion..
    And if those people were working and contributing to the economy at least half a day it would be better in my opinion.

    And another quote that I wanted to add earlier in the spirit of things
    "There is no need to assume anything without a reason being given for it, unless it is self-evident, or known from experience, or its proof is given by virtue of the authority of the holy books.."
    – William of Ockham

  135. Yoav (295):
    It is not for nothing that they say that religion is the opium of the masses.
    Opium makes people happy, detached from reality and harmful. So is religion.

    Yoav (301):
    You say that Raskolnikov is a "fairly real" character and give him priority over my father who is a very real character.

    Yoav (303 and many other responses):
    You don't say anything except blasphemy.

    Yoav (304):
    In answer to your first question: yes!
    In answer to your second question: no. Those who understand evolution know that there are no people made of straw.

    Beyond the fact that the answer to your hard to believe is simply "then try harder", when an honest person doesn't understand something then he doesn't just make up a story to tell instead of an explanation.

  136. Religion in the eyes of a Darwinist:

    As someone who believes in Darwinism, cuts through Ockham's razor and other scientific "shameful sources", I assume that this phenomenon of religion and belief has factors that have kept it alive for thousands of years of history even though it is clearly irrational. It seems to me that it exists in symbiosis with human intelligence. Precisely because it is false, it protects the human race.
    Let us imagine a situation where all the believers present know that God is a fiction empty of content. There is no one to examine the kidneys and heart and there is no one to punish the sinners or reward the righteous in their eternal life in the next world (which does not exist anyway). Was human society able to exist in such a state of affairs?

    In the city where I live, I sometimes meet preachers of a certain religion. When they bully me, I answer them: "There is no God*, but out of a desire to protect my personal good, I prefer that you continue to believe in him."
    (*Whoever wants to can see this as a shorthand for their declaration: "There is no God but the Mother of God").

    And back to the State of Israel: isn't repentance better than drug addiction? Aren't free eaters better than robbers and burglars? In my humble opinion, state anxiety is the least evil.

  137. Maybe according to Occam's Razor you should choose the religious theory..since it involves the least number of concepts and laws..just one simple law 😛

  138. There are thousands of religions in the world, and there is no proof of the righteousness of any of them, why exactly is your version the right one? Isn't it simpler to assume that neither version is correct? Have you heard of Ockham's razor?

  139. Hello my father,
    "Furthermore, his views on God are not scientific but private, arising from his upbringing."
    And why do you think your education is better than Descartes' education?

    My personal opinion is that it is very difficult for me to believe that humans with the help of science (logic and the human mind) can one day reach the essence of truth. Just as I know that my fish in the aquarium will never reach an understanding of the world, I also have no reason to assume that I, with my brain, will be able to reach such an understanding one day. After all, according to your opinion, my brain is a development of the brain that a fish has (for the sake of discussion) and who told you that your brain has reached this level that it is sufficient to understand the world.
    Since you don't have such confidence - you have no choice but to build a layer above reality that will give you good enough answers so that you and most of humanity can live well with them for the 70-80 years of their lives.

    Happy holiday

  140. Hello Yoav, these quotes will not help you, they constitute a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority". In science, even Einstein has no authority beyond his scientific papers. Dakar was a gifted mathematician, and he gave us the Cartesian axes, beyond that his views on God are not scientific but private ones arising from his upbringing.

  141. Here is another confused quote by the name of Descartes: "I must investigate if there is a God..."
    Even Descartes, if only he had a head that was not opaque, you would probably be able to solve mental problems.

    And regarding "concern for tycoons". Steinitz cares about the economy, you can disagree with him and that is legitimate, but what is not legitimate is to write that Steinitz cares about tycoons.
    It's as illegitimate as saying that the leftists care about the Arabs. In both cases it is really an accusation of treason. This is such a serious charge that if there is any doubt as to its veracity then it should not be raised.

  142. Logic missile - a definitely confused book. Full of scientific contradictions.
    I already told you that the secular education system is neutered because the inspectors are constantly afraid of the religious ones. You can finish high school and not hear the word evolution for example. In the humanities, you don't have to study biology, and philosophy - Steinitz's academic profession only requires logic and logic, even if it is correct, with wrong data also leads to wrong results (GIGO). By the way, I am not satisfied with his performance as a finance minister who only cares about tycoons, as recently in the case of the opposition to a maximum salary for CEOs in public companies. It seems to me that the position he takes in favor of raising the gas royalties is also a pretense because he thinks this is what the public wants.

  143. On the shelf next to me is the book term "A Logical Missile to God and Back"
    written by Dr. of Philosophy Yuval Steinitz in which he proves, according to his opinion, the existence of God. Is Yuval Steinitz opaque? Scarecrow?

  144. You're just a fanatic, sure that whoever you won't be able to convince and return with a question after you explain the truth to him is a deadhead.
    Maybe if you talked to Dostoyevsky before he wrote Sin and His Punishment the ending would look different.

  145. This is a hypothetical question. I did not present all my arguments but only those that were relevant to the article, I know my full arguments well, and I am sure that an open minded religious person would understand them and immediately return the question. The problem is that they make sure to seal your head from the age of zero and protect you with cotton wool.
    And by the way, it's not just Raskolnikov, there are thousands of Israelis who fall into their oiled machine with mahbats who like to build straw men (scarecrows) who supposedly represent science, make them poof and they fall and say that they have overthrown science, including the theory of evolution and abiogenesis. And there are fools, because secular education is also full of holes, who think that it is science and that religion is superior to it. Fools are everywhere, and even if they were the majority, it wouldn't change my opinion. And regardless, there should be no discussion with people for whom education is a derogatory word.

  146. Raskolnikov, who is quite a real character, was not convinced by anyone. On the contrary, he kept everything inside and the conflicts of the soul were between him and himself. Your musings would not have prevented Raskolnikov, who has deep musings, from choosing religion.

  147. Even if the majority choose religion, it means nothing. It means they managed to convince them. You should also choose freedom if you want the country to exist in another generation. And this is also to your benefit, because if there is not a strong secular Jewish state, a second Holocaust is only a matter of time.

  148. Abby, you are an absolute extremist.
    You see substantive questions as rhetorical questions.
    Raskolnikov from Dostoyevsky's book "Sin and its Punishment", seriously debated essential questions regarding his attitude to religion. He finally and after much soul-searching chose religion. In any case, if it were rhetorical questions, I guess the book would not have become a classic.

  149. If you insist on getting answers to rhetorical questions?
    They don't know this because the "greats of the generation" are constantly trying to cut them off both from personal contact with secular people (army, university), and from the internet, and for 30 years from television, all so that they don't know that there is a world out there.
    For the second question, happiness is a relative thing. There are poor people for whom olives and pita are also happiness. The truth is, they constantly live in anxiety (hence the term anxious) so I provide if apart from small pleasures they are happy in life.
    Less satisfied - and how else, otherwise they wouldn't be dealing all the time with the desire for evil as enemy number one (as defined by the Channel 10 reporter on Haredim affairs yesterday at London and Kirschenbaum).

  150. My father, hello again,
    I honestly asked 3 questions but you didn't answer any of them.

    (Regarding "now the bored are demanding segregation in the streets" I assume that on the ultra-Orthodox street there is also an ultra-Orthodox "Avi Blizovsky" a kind of mirror image to your own image who writes about massage parlors in Tel Aviv as the latest demand of the seculars)

  151. Yoav, a life of lies is always a difficult life.
    They constantly need to prove that they are right and because of this they tend to extremes. As if all the trouble wasn't enough now these bores demand complete separation between men and women on the street. If you don't understand where this is going, Mila, it's a shame that there are people in the government who don't understand where the country will go.

  152. Avi Shalom,
    You wrote that "they make the biggest wrong decision of their lives - to repent". Do they ever "realize" that they made a "terrible" mistake or do they live happily ever after?
    without knowing it? Are they less happy? Or less satisfied?

  153. Unknown - who?
    In my experience, not everyone reads all the comments, so I found it appropriate to highlight this comment.
    If you think my father or I would take this kind of strategy then you don't know us at all. If there's anything I'm really allergic to, it's a lie, and the kind of impersonation you talked about is also a despicable lie.
    The interesting thing is that your response is proof that my response was important, if only to dispel the wrong conclusions of people who think that there is any chance in the world that my father or I would use a lie to convince, and to make it clear to everyone who reads this conversation that this is an authentic idiot and not the impersonation of someone trying to clarify something through a lie.

  154. Michael!
    Why do you respond to him, feeding it to us with a spoon? Don't you think that the readers of Hayad'an are educated enough to distinguish between the BAR and the TEVEN? In my opinion, Benny 291 could be you or Avi, trying to make a point

  155. If someone still hasn't realized what levels of madness, stupidity and hatred religion can lead to, they should read my son's response 291.

  156. My father, you are an anti-religious fanatic, an extremist, a preacher as dangerous as Amnon Yitzchak,

    "Send them to prison".

    Keep showing us your sadistic and dark sides, one day you will be exposed.

  157. To all the victims of Avi Blizovsky!

    You are invited to establish an association or at least open a group on Facebook. Personally, as a sensitive and vulnerable Cancer, I was hurt to the bone by the contempt for astrology (or perhaps it is correct to say "to the depths of my soul". You are welcome to correct).

    It is true that the style of this list of articles ("a country haunted by demons") is different from the usual articles, but that is what is beautiful about this site, which also allows personal opinions to be heard - including the hateful words of the commenters and counter-commentators.

    So whoever does not respond to this response of mine, will be excommunicated until the tenth incarnation of his soul. The good news is that he will go to heaven. The bad news is that there, in heaven, the only newspapers are science papers written, as we know, by the heirs of hell. The nutrition there is also not who-knows-what. This is the only place where the ban on whaling is really enforced and it has already been proven that the wild bull is a relative of the domestic pig.

    By the way, why can't I delete this stupid talkback?

  158. Ruby,
    This site is scientific but it is not just an informative site and has an agenda. As in the newspaper, beyond the news there are also opinion articles, the science is also an online scientific magazine and as such occasionally presents opinion articles and editorials. If a certain party attacks the agenda on which the website is based, for example scientific freedom, for example the search for the truth, for example anti-coercion, then you should not be surprised that the head of the website will attack it in his article.

  159. Ruby,

    In my opinion you live in a bubble and you do not understand what is happening around you.
    Let's say that science has nothing to say about morality (let's say - because that's not really true - in fact, when you combine science with our natural sense of morality that can be explained by evolution - and dress it up with game theory considerations - science has a lot to say about morality. True - it needs to be proven - but it's possible To prove. Of course, religion doesn't require any proof of anything because who requires proof from a collection of lies?) But the real problem is that religion has a lot to say about morality.
    In fact she mainly tells us that morality is not moral!
    It commands us to stone Shabbat breakers and homosexuals, it justifies the parasitism of broad sections of the public more and more

    Religion - as a principle - strives to rule theocracy here - instead of democracy. This is true for all religious currents - except the reformers.
    I also know many religious people who do not accept the direction that the stream they belong to is striving for.
    This is actually a problem with the knitted domes, because of the relative moderation of the current to which they belong - they remind me a little of the boiled frog without you feeling it.
    Whoever desires democracy must fight religion because religion fights him.
    Of course, the ultra-orthodox are dozens of times worse than others, but the declared goal of all religious currents (again - with the exception of the reformers) is the elimination of democracy.

    The funniest thing is what you say about prejudice.
    what exactly do you mean That my father has opinions and is therefore not allowed to express them?
    what? Your views are future and not past?

  160. I was terribly disappointed by this article.
    Also from the style but mainly from the subject.

    I am a science lover all my life and I am not religious at all
    Of course.
    But science has nothing to do with morality/social statements/ideals and the other issues
    You bring up - you can indeed use statistical tools to prove it
    social trends, and even determine social damage that will be caused to society, but that's cute,
    You have to prove, what you are doing (which is not much different from a dating site) is
    Take some statistics and use them to prove your belief variable/
    Ideological/moral/social...which even if I happen to agree with her there is no reason
    That I would have to find it on a site dealing with science!!!

    You use science as a crutch to dig up your doctrine, which will be as right as possible
    The given is not a science!!! - This is an injustice to the science you are trying to save...

    The "scientific" part you present is also lacking, shallow and populist.
    You want to do statistical research - do thorough research! Check currents in practice
    Religious, check exactly what the definition "traditional" contains and what it contains
    The incubation is "secular" and will examine the distribution according to different currents
    The contribution to Israeli society at all levels... build a thesis and prove it.

    Beyond that on a personal level, I want to testify that I know personally within friends
    family and work (in one form or another) quite a few religious people (like all of us)
    Each and every one of them contributes to society in a variety of ways, at least 50% of them are academics.

    It won't help my father, in my opinion you are infected with prejudices and therefore you are the last person
    To be able to write a series of important sociological articles on the topics you bring up...
    Simply because you will always look for your opinion in the results.

    Everything I write I say on the side of the many compliments to this site
    and for his work in the field of transmitting scientific information to the general public...

    Good Day

  161. It is true that the inclination to religion causes the erosion of the state from within, but it also changes and changes
    Depending on the geopolitical/theological situation of the world. The leading religious organizations
    In the western world they saw that they were losing the areas of extensive influence that it had in the past
    and are not equal to the one in the Islamic world, therefore today they are busy recruiting poor people
    and/or those who are tired of the materialistic world and are looking for a different meaning to their lives in order to
    To balance the "Islamic threat".

  162. Ghosts:
    Please explain to me what the phrase "they have no place there" means.
    Is it a volume problem?
    Are ultra-Orthodox not allowed to be construction workers? Is he not allowed to work on computers? In short - what is this nonsense?
    What do I care what the ultra-Orthodox want?
    They don't want to work or serve in the army - do I have to agree to this parasitism?
    Just take away their allowances and all kinds of perks and see how they run to work.
    I don't think there is any place for Jewish studies, just as there is no place for Satanic cult studies.
    If someone wants to learn or teach it, there is no reason for the state to fund it.
    I am not saying that one should not study Judaism in its historical, social and philosophical aspect - but this is exactly what ultra-Orthodox teachers will not do - they will take advantage of this type of stage to deepen the brainwashing.

  163. The ultra-Orthodox education system produces many times more teachers than they need and where exactly do they teach? Exactly - they take advantage of the tolerance of the seculars, and in the end what happens - the children of the seculars repent because of the excessive tolerance of their parents and the secular education system. The problem is that it is one-sided. A teacher who wants to teach in an ultra-orthodox school has to align with their craziest whims and cannot convey her messages to them. So again it turns out that we are the suckers.

  164. How do you want religious people to work in places like you work or would work, if they have no place there?
    You will probably say that there are religious people who work in respectable places (or something like that), but it is also important to understand that, for example, ultra-Orthodox cannot teach in secular schools because they have no place there, there are certainly ultra-Orthodox who would like to teach, but almost all ultra-Orthodox, I am sure, will not. To begin with, it is possible to integrate the ultra-orthodox or the handful of religious people who would like to integrate into the secular world, in workplaces of teachers of Judaism, for example, in secular schools. But on the other hand this is also an exaggeration, because for this we need not only a reform of the entire education system but also a reform of the minds of the youth at least. You probably won't agree with me, am I right?

  165. The Or party intends to try to establish a constitution.
    You said worn out might further your idea.
    The system of government you are talking about may be interesting, but in my opinion, while the party you propose is working on changing the system of government - the country will already go to waste.

  166. Michael!
    I have no argument with you about the fact that the platform and the basic lines are unique.
    I'm just claiming that the current system of government is no longer relevant, and for that, like any other standard party, there is no adequate answer.
    Let's take an example from the ultra-orthodox parties. Do they have a broad platform like the standard parties? In my opinion, no. They go about their narrow affairs when political, economic and social issues do not interest them as such. Do they manage to achieve their narrow goals beyond all proportion? In my opinion, yes. The current government system allows this, and the standard parties - including Or - do not try to change it.

  167. jubilee:
    It is like saying that Or is a party and as such is no different from other parties.
    It is not different in anything except that its base and basic lines are completely different.

  168. Michael!
    Or is indeed a serious party with a serious platform, and as such it is no different from the standard serious parties.
    However, the problem facing us is radical and it needs a radical solution.

  169. If someone was looking for an example of what religion can cause - he is welcome to read response 273 and see through on his own.

  170. Ghosts:
    Regarding March - this is simply not true.
    They always had more important things and always sacrificed the issue of anxiety on the altar of those things.
    They never (but never!) tried to deal with the problem.

    Regarding your "operative" proposal - it is also pointless.
    How exactly can you approach them?
    Will we stop working too?
    Will we also stop serving in the army?
    Will we also believe in hallucinations instead of reality?

    And they - will they approach us willingly?
    So far - throughout the country's history, they have only moved away.
    For my part, let them get closer to us - that's exactly what I want:
    That they start serving in the army and working and that they stop imposing their laws on me.
    If they do it, I really don't care what nonsense they believe.

    It seems to me that you did not understand what was written on the site or that you decided to express yourself as if you did not understand.
    I have no intention of quoting here everything that is written on the website, but the basic lines speak for themselves.
    Of course, as a serious party, it is necessary to express a position on all the issues at hand, but the basic lines reflect the goal.

  171. Avi Blizovsky, you are frightening in the way you express yourself towards the most conservative, gentle, sensitive and caring sector in the country. I personally repented together with my family members. There are four of us and two more from a family that lives here in the north of Tel Aviv. You are left alone with a few other old men who will be erased from our eyelash area in another generation. Go out and don't forget to say hello

  172. Hello Michael

    I entered the website of the Or party and added my information to the distribution list.
    From the little I've read, Or seems to me to be a party like all parties with a multi-section platform, a typical routine "supermarket". If I'm not mistaken, I detected center-left polarization. Such, as hinted by one of the unknowns here, are not lacking.

    A bed like yours is absolutely not what I'm offering, but as long as I'm not in Israel, what do I have to do because I'm not?
    In any case, I would love to hear from you and also play for you.

    Success for all of us

  173. Machel
    What about parties like Mertz or Change and those that have not been successful for years?
    My proposal is not to fight them but to join them with us (they=religious, we=secular), while we will also change direction in their direction, and find the golden path. In other words, the seculars also need to change in order to be able to change the religious so that they will be kind to the seculars. The problem is to find this way, I think it will be possible to pave this way only if we change direction and work together with the religious instead of against them. And all this through education, first of all. For sure it will take time, maybe even a generation, but at least the next generation will be of better quality than this generation and the previous one.
    To establish another party that will fight the religious is, in my opinion, a waste of time.
    By the way, I watched the clip on ORR's website, and I have to tell you that the shirt you are wearing looks big on you. 🙂

  174. Ghosts:
    I didn't say anything like that.
    I said that the major parties have already proven for many years that they are unable to deal with the problem of the country's gradual transformation into a Halacha state.
    If we leave them to their own devices - this will remain the case in the future until we all fall.
    Therefore, the only way is to form a new party that will take care of the matter.

  175. Machel
    What you are saying is that we need to find a solution to the problem of: how to make big parties not fall? I did not quite understand you.

  176. my father
    In the US there are 2 major parties. Regardless of the number of parties - is the USA a country not worth living in?
    You say that a certain part does not have a voice, their voice is not heard. What I am saying is that for their voice to be heard they need to be influential, for them to be influential they need to function as a strong party.
    Once there are many parties then they cannot be strong because the power is divided between all of them.
    Therefore, a situation is obtained where all the parties are weak, and the least weak party is the one that ruled.

    Regarding "then they sometimes become more republican than republican."

    This can only be changed through education and education from an early age. And regarding those democrats, in my opinion, Cabinet should be fired as abroad as in Israel.
    In any case, all that is said is still a utopia.

  177. Anonymous 264 (Tired of all these anonymous. Why don't people choose a nickname so they can be answered).
    Parties do not create division. At most they give expression to the division that already exists.
    The fact is that for years there were major parties and the problem of their downfall (first by the ultra-Orthodox and later in general) is only getting worse.
    Without parties that engrave the solution to this problem on their flags - the major parties will do nothing and sooner or later there will be no more elections in the State of Israel (because in a theocratic country there are no real elections and in a country that has been eliminated there certainly aren't any).

  178. You don't want to live in a place where there is only one party (Russia). Also in the USA - where there are two, there are so many bodies that have no voice at all in politics, and they eat it, by the way, the rationalists too, because their apparent representatives, the Democrats, only worry about how they will be re-elected in districts that have many Republicans, so they sometimes become more Republican from republicans.

  179. jubilee

    In my opinion, a plurality of parties causes a division in the people and causes the parties themselves to weaken (the power of voters is divided).
    When there are individual parties in power, they will have enough power to serve their voters but on the condition that those parties, first of all, have a platform that will also benefit the voters from other parties. That is, that the right wing will not be opposed to the left wing but will work in cooperation with the left wing (all this so that in the future the parties can unite into one party that will serve the entire nation).

  180. What is disappointing are the data, any anecdotal data you know pales in comparison to the reality, which is still problematic. Should it be hidden? Should we wait until the venturous activities of a minority among the ultra-Orthodox overcome the retrogression of the majority of the ultra-Orthodox through new decrees every day such as the cancellation of the core program? Will this day come before the coming of the Messiah?

  181. Unless you're looking for provocations for arguments and a lot of comments, but how can I tell you, I'm one of the oldest readers of this site and it really disappointed me

  182. To my father

    Why do you put politics on a beautiful site like the science, it's a shame.
    I disagree with you, but according to the degree of tolerance, I still respect your opinions. Just remember, don't generalize, each person and case individually, I have seen masses of religious people (both women and ultra-Orthodox) in the army, in top quality positions.

    Advice from me: the articles on the website should be objective only.

  183. jubilee:
    The problems that are troubling you are the ones for which the Or Party was founded in an effort to solve them.
    On the factual level - I would like to comment on some of your words that seem inaccurate to me:
    The flow of knitted caps also wants to rule here as a halachic state.
    Refer to this matter in response 187.
    The behavior of the youth of the hills is not created in a vacuum.
    You probably remember the anthem they sing at every opportunity, "Ozuz adesh and tofar".
    This is a very graphic expression of their disbelief in the authority of the government established by man and their belief that only the laws of the Torah bind them.
    This is reflected at every step - whether in the rebellion (literally) of soldiers who graduated from the settlement yeshiva against instructions they received (or think they might receive) regarding the evacuation of settlements, whether in the refusal of the parents of criminal children who were caught to cooperate with the identification process, and whether in other acts .

    Faith has many roots and there is also a way (education) to prevent it from hitting these roots.
    Dawkins' book "Is there a God?" Explains quite a bit about these roots.

    I don't think it's necessary and I don't even believe it's possible to use people's tendency to believe nonsense to promote some cause.
    I don't think it's necessary because the moment you plant the root of faith in a person, he must turn off his critical thinking, even partially. Once it happens - you can't know where it will lead.
    I don't think it's possible because you get most of the people when the nonsense is already fixed in their minds and the way to introduce new nonsense to them goes through removing the old and removing the old usually goes through the restoration of their critical thinking that will prevent the introduction of the new.

    I think it is also immoral and that it shows contempt for humans.

    I don't know who you are talking about when you refer to the people you tried to convince to run for the Knesset.
    I want to remind you that the Or party is trying to run for the Knesset and I don't remember any other people you tried to convince.

    What the Or party believes needs to be done appears on its website:

  184. Cheers and blessings to you too.
    If and when there is a constitution, the need for an initiative like mine will greatly decrease and maybe even disappear. However, since until today with the existing system of government we have not been able to establish a constitution, I believe that there is room for a completely different political approach. I gratefully use the platform you gave me to bring again a link to the things I have already brought here:
    (Response No. 2 there)

  185. jubilee,
    A. All, get HH. Congratulations on the initiative.
    B: Don't you think it would be better for the State of Israel to first have a constitution or whatever it is called? Instead of adding more and more parties, each one slightly different from the other?

  186. I will try to take advantage of the blessed silence that has remained here to make my voice heard in space.

    Humanity, since the beginning of history and very likely even before, was "mumbling". This feature has survived to this day, perhaps because technological progress is short-lived (there are features whose evolution lasts thousands of years).

    In the ancient Hebrew religion there were two main schools of thought: the muttering of the temples and the priests' tricks, and the practical moralist who took advantage of the mental need for muttering in order to instill moral laws (which she borrowed from secular political sources such as Hammurabi's Laws). This mish-mesh remained unchanged even when content was replaced with new content. For example, nowhere in the Torah is there a mention of life after death; This belief entered Judaism only after the Oral Torah began to develop.

    Judaism, like Islam, is a moral halachic religion which derives its strength from the ancient, primitive need of humans to believe in miracles and wonders. Educating a person in the sciences is a process that requires decades, while educating him to believe in the Holy God requires only a few childhood years.

    Buddhism is a religion that preaches moral behavior along with the importance of learning the sciences. However, even though it does not give importance to God, even in it the driving nucleus is the human need to believe in some kind of metaphysical being (eternal reincarnation). As of our generation, and most likely also in the generations to come, the tendency towards metaphysical belief is the one that will prevail in the world. I suggest that instead of attacking her we try to use her as leverage to advance our agenda.

    The knitted domes are a good example of combining religion with progress. Personally, I do not agree with the fixation on the stories of the Tanakh that pushes many of them to settle the "completed Land of Israel" with all the violence involved (I also do not believe that the stories in the book of Joshua reflect some kind of true reality at some point in time). However, I welcome the scientists that Bar Ilan University grows like all the other universities in Israel that accept knitted caps without discrimination.

    Regarding the parasites who use our money to steal the souls of our children (literally, without quotation marks), it is possible to turn off their taps with wise legislation. At this very moment I am informed that the State of Israel is required to explain in court why core studies are not compulsory in yeshiva. Unfortunately, the court is too often forced to fill in the gaps in the Knesset's legislation, but I hope that visionaries will arise who will try to take action and make amends. I even tried to convince people here to run for the Knesset with this platform. Although they got away with different excuses, I hope others will arise. If this does not happen, I promise that upon my return to Israel I will dedicate the rest of my life to this matter.

  187. In the end you will be nicknamed:

    Amnon Yitzchak of atheism
    returns in the national question

    Of course, this nickname is reserved for Richard Dawkins

  188. humans:
    My father added a list of things that they force on me but it was actually clear in advance that this list is not of interest to you.
    After all, all these things already appear in the previous comments.
    Both what I said in the previous comments and my previous response to you contain excellent reasons to complain about them.
    For some reason it seems to you that the fact that I have to provide for them is nothing.
    For some reason it seems to you that me and my children should serve in the army more just because they evade is nothing.
    For some reason, all of their forcing their lifestyles on me (and my father pointedly explained) is nothing.
    Therefore you decide to invent yourself - without any supporting evidence - the reason why we are resentful.
    You decide it's because they behave differently from me.
    In short - you are a liar or an idiot.
    And in addition to that - if in your opinion I should not comment on such serious things - why do you think that this minor matter - the fact that I am commenting - justifies your comment?
    Is it because it bothers you that there are people who behave differently than you?
    Unlike me and my father - you did not provide any answer to this question (which has already been asked).
    Probably the reason is that you can't stand that others behave differently from you!

  189. People, start detailing the list of injustices of religious coercion in Israel?
    Right on the edge of the fork, there are endless examples like this, the hametz law, the ban on importing non-kosher meat, double the price of milk because of the stupid requirement to pour all the milk that comes out of the cows' udders on Shabbat and holidays, banning public transportation on Shabbat, etc.' Not to mention the new troubles from the last week - prohibition of payments on Saturdays on government websites, daylight saving time, etc., etc. and much more, etc.

    And besides that, as long as the ultra-Orthodox lived in independent areas such as Mea Shearim, it can be said that they will do what they want there, but when they worry about horrifying even secular neighborhoods like Ramat Aviv, and demand modest clothing from the women living there, this is no longer something we can afford as a society.

  190. What do you care what the others are doing in their yard, no one bothers you in your yard
    It bothers you that others behave differently than you
    So you decide that they force you and take away from you all this your plot and your interpretation
    Throughout history as someone felt disturbed by others
    Always found the plot to prove that the others are bad
    And it doesn't matter if they are Jews or other peoples
    You are simply looking to blame others for your problems.

  191. humans:
    The feeling from reading your comment is that you are not satisfied!
    Dissatisfied mainly with the other commenters.
    I thought to Tommy, maybe instead of checking what you are not satisfied with from others on the one hand and on the other hand showing to the outside how satisfied and satisfied you are with yourself, check maybe you are still not satisfied with yourself with what you failed to do or other things that are not missing.
    To grumble that others cause the same dissatisfaction as you (if it weren't for him you wouldn't react) is pathetic.
    You should check what bothers you and makes you prefer to grumble and complain about others.

    And seriously: you grumble about others who have done you no harm while I complain about others who shirk work, security and family planning and place their duties on me and my family members.
    In addition to that - those others whose behavior I am not satisfied with also try to force me to act according to their superstitious beliefs.

    Therefore, it seems to me that we both understand - the one who just grumbles is actually you.

  192. Mr. Editor and dear surfers
    The feeling from reading here is that those who express themselves here are not satisfied!
    Dissatisfied mainly with other human beings.
    One disturbs one way and the other another. And everything with the others.
    I thought to Tommy maybe instead of checking what you are not satisfied with from others on the one hand
    And on the other hand, you show outwardly how pleased and satisfied you are with yourself.
    Check, maybe you are not satisfied with yourself anyway
    From what you failed to do or from other things there is no shortage.
    Complaining that others are to blame for your problems is pathetic
    You should check what bothers you that makes you prefer to grumble and complain about others.

  193. jubilee:
    In principle you are right.
    I mean, the issue is not exactly a bulldozer - but a well-known public figure who can sweep people away.
    If Yair picks up the glove it will be great, but it depends on which glove he picks up

  194. I gave you intelligence and wisdom to explore the creation and you waste your time in vain things that do not benefit your days seventy years and you waste them in vain come and do an act to reveal the wonders of the creation because in you is the wisdom to observe and investigate my works

  195. I have given you understanding and intelligence to investigate the creation and you waste your time in the words of the devil, the days of your years are of no use, seventy years, and you waste them in vain

  196. A party needs a "bulldozer". Tomi Lapid ah, for example, nicely pushed for change. Maybe his son, Yair Yabla, will agree to continue?

  197. jubilee:
    The truth is that I am one of the founders of the "Or" party

    The problem is that almost no one knows the party or does not believe that it will succeed in entering the Knesset.
    The second part is a self-fulfilling prophecy (we usually joke that we probably have ten mandates of people who won't vote for us just because they think we won't pass the threshold.

    For years I tried to escape from politics, but at some point I realized that one of the wisest things in the Jewish tradition is the parable of Yotam, and if all the good ones escape then - in the end, fire will come out of the Hatad and consume all the cedars of Lebanon.

  198. Michael!

    You need to form a party and enter the circle of the corrupt. It's not simple at all.
    Do you know someone in the country who is both honest and strong?
    Do you, for example, have the power to do politics?

  199. jubilee:
    In my opinion, we were wrong on many points and one of the first of them is that in the Declaration of Independence they wrote "Jewish state" - while Herzl's vision spoke of the state of the Jews.
    The state arose to protect Judaism in one sense - Judaism as a population (as in the phrase "Diaspora Judaism") and not Judaism as a religion. This doubling of meaning was the first stick in our wheels.
    It is possible that in the future historians will tell about a country that fell because of a play on words.

    On the other hand - all the mistakes that were made - have already been made.
    The question is what can be done to save the country after all.
    The only possible answer lies in politics.
    If we manage to enact a constitution that separates religion from the state - we have a chance.
    The USA also has a religious majority, but because of the separation of religion and state, it manages to remain normal.

  200. "How will a country survive where no one works"? About such a one it is said: Man dihib hia yahib mazuna.

  201. Is this the end of the Zionist dream?
    After all, Zionism rose to protect Judaism, and now Judaism rose on its own!
    Where did we go wrong?

  202. rummy:
    I'm afraid there is really a danger that your dream will come true.
    What you don't understand is that right after your dream comes true - Ahmadinejad's dream will also come true and it will happen even without his help.
    It will be interesting to see how a country will exist where no one works and no one goes to the army.

  203. Friends:
    If any of the sane people have not yet understood what we are facing, they should understand that Rami is an example of the product of the "education" system that the ultra-Orthodox are trying to dominate here.

  204. Friends !!!
    Apart from mumbling here and grumbling you have not done and you will never do anything these are your prayers. For the idols of science and technology, idols of wood and stone, metal and plastic.
    The religious will be the majority and will make all the decisions and you will remain a fallen group of muttering morons. without any power and ability to influence. So keep muttering to each other and have fun.

  205. jewel:
    Don't you know that a very large part of the deterioration of the education system originates from religion?
    The deterioration that religion brings to the education system is of two types:
    One is the transfer of the authority to determine the study content of more and more educational institutions from the Ministry of Education to the Sages (according to the Nahari Law).
    The second is the religious indoctrination taking over more and more hours in the state education (A. T.L.I.) and this at the expense of learning much more important content.

    Every graduate of the education system must study the Bible, but not every graduate needs to study physics or biology.

    So it's true - this is about politics because the study content is chosen by the politicians, but the conflict between the teaching of science and the strengthening of religion's grip on Israeli politics screams to the heavens and must be of interest to anyone who thinks that science is an important part of our culture.

  206. Yuval Chaikin:
    Science is not a religion.
    Those who read here on the site can already argue that I am repeating it like a broken turntable, but since there are new members - there is a point in repeating it.
    Religion is a set of rules of behavior derived from a non-human authority.
    The origin of the word "religion" is in the Persian language and in this language the meaning of the word is "law".
    This is also where expressions such as "one religion - to die" (meaning that our sentence is death) or "according to religion and religion" come from this.

    Judaism is a system of behavioral laws whose alleged source of authority is God.
    So are all other monotheistic religions.
    Nazism was a religion whose source of authority lies in the theory of race (which the originators of Nazism claimed was an objective truth according to which there are superior human races and inferior human races).
    Marxism - also a religion - in its derivation of rules of behavior claims about some objective truth.

    Science is not a religion - because it is not a system of rules of behavior.
    Science is simply a method for investigating the world. He does not - by himself - even have claims about the world - and even more so he does not tell people how to behave.

    So how does the collision occur?
    It is created because those who accept the scientific method as a way to investigate the world (among us - we have no other way) cannot accept as truth claims that contradict experience, or that have contradictions among themselves, while the various religions draw their authority from claims that were supposed to be objective truth when in practice they are contradicting experience and themselves.

    But this is just a clash and a clash of claims can perhaps lead to a debate but not such a heated debate.

    So what makes the debate hot?
    Here another mechanism that has nothing to do with science comes into play.
    On one side of the barricade stand the religious, for whom - the claims about God's actions and actions are not the main thing - because what is important in religion are the rules of behavior.
    On the other side of the barrier are people who, since they do not accept the source of authority of the laws of conduct, are also unwilling to accept the laws of conduct themselves.
    The conflict arises because some of the laws of behavior dictated by religion to religious people are in direct conflict with our sense of morality (a feeling shared by most humans that originates from their common evolution) and another part of the laws of behavior dictated by religion to religious people are those that command them to force people who do not accept the religion - to accept it (obviously These laws are wrapped in claims about the objective superiority of religious laws over laws that do not originate in religion and as a result also claims about the superiority of the religious over others).
    This is at a time when those who are not religious do not accept any of these and would like to act according to a current and up-to-date system of laws that takes into account all the knowledge and experience that humanity has gained, aside from the natural sense of morality.

    In other words - the war - originally - is not a war between science and religion but between religion and democracy.
    This war often moves to the level between science and religion because the religious are based on the beliefs at the base of the religion (not its laws) as a source of authority while the rational people know that this source of authority does not exist at all.
    That is why the religious think that they will be able to win the debate and dominate their system of laws if only they succeed in convincing the rational people of the truth of the authority of the source of authority, while the rational people think that they will be able to thwart the religious coercion that the religious are trying to impose on them if they only convince the religious that their source of authority has no authority. In this framework, they make use of science to bring more and more refutations (which are absolutely not lacking) to his authority and even to the very existence of that source of authority.

    This ability of science to drop the ground under all religious laws by refuting the claim of the source of authority of these laws - is what makes science itself cool in the eyes of the people who have taken it upon themselves to return the whole world with a false answer.

  207. Abby, it seems to me that there is a difference between what Sagan and Neman wrote and your article.
    The two you mentioned lamented the damage to science and its deterioration, discussed the circumstances and analyzed the possible causes.
    Their article was definitely about science.

    Your article, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly political, and the sentence "and you will realize that this is not a country worth living in and defending" is enough to illustrate this - what does this have to do with science?
    The majority of the article is devoted to providing the statistics of the percentage of believers, and the rest is devoted to analyzing the inappropriate behavior of the ultra-Orthodox sector in everyday life (throwing stones, etc.), and what is the difference between that and science? Why don't you write an article attacking pedophiles - their daily behavior is extremely inappropriate, and the connection to science is the same.
    Politics has also found its way into your proposals:
    "Abolish many decrees imposed on us because of the ultra-Orthodox - provide public transportation on Shabbat, abolish the hametz law" - is the connection to science?
    "Stop the deterioration of the secular education system and its transformation into a religious one" - stop the deterioration of the education system, I agree, but the second part of the sentence - where did it come from? What are the steps taken that make the education system religious? Didn't you add that casually, because it fits the theme?

    As I have already said - I am not on the side of the believers and their faith. I am a passionate supporter of the extinction of puberty, improving the education system and discussing both the sources of the dangers posed to science and the ways to deal with these dangers.
    But I feel that your article is lacking, and its place is on a website dealing with politics, such as Ynet.

  208. Yuval Chaikin,

    B. Your head is working.
    I would say that you are raising the bar that we started with in the article by Dr. Yahyam whistles.

  209. Avi,

    Words as spurs. The entire series deserves its place in a scientific journal, for all the right reasons.

    In the mind (mine, at least) until today, religion was seen as an emotional matter and science was seen as rational. And here you came and showed that even the speakers in the name of science know how to show emotions. Just as the religious can rebel against an injury to their feelings, so can scientists and their supporters. And maybe science is itself a religion and therefore the debate here is inter-religious in the full sense of the word?

  210. to me There are 21 articles in this series, 12.600 on the entire site
    However, if Carl Sagan were allowed to write such articles because he felt thatThe move towards mysticism and religions threatens science And thus also about the continuation of the human race or at least human culture, if Yuval Neman was allowed to write that we are on the brink of the end of the second scientific age (and by implication - on the brink of new medieval times), so I too am allowed to devote an article to the data published this week that show the continuation of this trend, in its Israeli version.

  211. I will state in advance that I do not wear a kippah, and my laptop will probably be working overtime on the upcoming Yom Kippur, but, in my opinion, this is not the place for this type of article. Science separately, and all other vegetables separately. Too bad.

  212. Judah (209)
    When the debate is between a person who identifies and knows, and is ready to put his positions and his name to the test, and a person who uses a fake nickname and calls his opponents derogatory names and dismisses all their words without any evidence,
    I have no doubt in whom I believe.

  213. Hello Noam
    Regarding response 159,
    Like any person captive to a certain concept, you have a desire to divide things into familiar patterns, my words in no way indicated a communist tendency. And the fact that one idea did not work (communism) does not mean that it can be replaced with the first idea found (God), but a way must be found that combines the advantages that exist in each of the ways: from communism you can take equality, from Judaism "the one who kills you is wise to kill", "what is hated About you..." something from the Koran (there must be something), from Buddhism the openness and many other beautiful and good things found in each of these. But you don't take any idea just based on the fact that it is part of some doctrine or because someone said it, but because the idea is definitely proven to be effective (unlike sacrifices, moving the nest, prayers, tefillin, Shatanz and other different types of nonsense).

    So please take me out of the structure that you think the world is divided according to and try to understand that this is a person, who thinks, examines, learns, sometimes understands and never belongs to groups.

    As one who comes from a family of descendants of the Gaon from Vilna who immigrated to Israel long before there was a dream of a state, I can assure you that Judaism's connection to the Land of Israel really does not depend on government support or funding from public funds. Those who want to study Gemara, those who want to observe mitzvot, for health.

    Just stop exporting your garbage - and I'm not talking about Amnon Yitzchak or sheikhs like him, I'm talking about legislation that hurts the rest of the country's inhabitants. I'm talking about chastity vigils, about segregation on public buses, about the hametz law, about public transportation on Shabbat, about not contributing as part of the army or national service, about evading taxation in a way that only the Muslim sector competes with, about only taking from the state and never giving, about education To ignorance (and believe me, I know this education well) - even if it is full of good will and people with good intentions - instead of knowledge, about turning to authority instead of common sense and more and more and more and more...

    And if, after all, the religious / ultra-Orthodox will not be convinced to go to the Holy Land and observe the mitzvots that depend on the land - on this the Sages said: Well, Shuyin.

    And note by the way, I have no hatred for any of these sectors, I look at you the way you look at an average secularist - babies who were born (which is not like me, because I, an afikorus and Elisha ben Abuya every evening sit and giggle with hash in one hand, vodka in the other and a prostitute in the middle). My parents are ultra-Orthodox. I worked as an apostate with the ultra-orthodox sector and there are many good things and good people there (most of them also remember me favorably). The only ones I detest are the false messiahs: x-rays, ignorant converts who present their words as a baseless Sinaitic Torah, its practitioners add with a tendency to create secretions when the lips move away from each other or as Rambam called them: the crowd of rabbis. When I hear that a bus overturned in Iran, my heart hurts, but I would cook Khamenei in his mother's milk. This is also my attitude to Mea Shearim.

  214. The lively debate that has arisen here points, first and foremost, to the fact that freedom of expression has not passed from our country.

    I will deal with the following sentence: "Someone up there needs to immediately make a number of changes".
    There is no one "up there" who is not also down here. Israel is a democratic country (still) and it is not too late to take action. It seems to me that this is a very good time to establish a political movement that will engrave on its banner to change the system.

    And thanks to Michael for the smile 🙂 At least one person here refers to my posts.

  215. It is not superfluous to note that I have only come across the despicable phenomenon of double, triple and quadruple donations in ultra-Orthodox associations and especially in the Hat-Tikva association.
    In associations like "The Israeli Spirit" under the leadership of Tal Brodi, I have never come across this kind of phenomenon.

  216. Yehuda:
    Although I already stated this in Rish Gali, but for the sake of the laggards in the group, I repeat the statement.
    Indeed, you mentioned to me that I also donate to non-Orthodox associations (such as Adam Teva and Din, the Cancer Society, the Heart Foundation, and more)
    Other associations that immediately spring to mind among the ones I donated to (and I really don't know for sure which of them are ultra-orthodox and who are not, but I assume that a large part of them are ultra-orthodox) are Hat Tikva, Yad Sara, Hat, Ala, the association for the blind, and many others.
    I really donate to many associations and I can't remember them all. This is also the reason why I often discover that some of them have contacted me several times and that I have four standing orders that are open at the same time for them.

  217. Please state in Rish Gali that you have donated directly to religious/Orthodox associations ever and to which of them.
    Maybe you donated to the Freedom and Zion association that deals with incitement against the ultra-Orthodox, this can be believed

  218. I understood this explicitly from the first response in which he stated this fact. You have Pesht and Drash. I only have a direct understanding of what is written. You must be tired. Go to sleep and read all the comments again in the morning and you'll see that you just didn't understand. In particular, the first response in which he talks about it - response 192.

  219. Mr. Blizovsky
    Nowhere did he explicitly state that he contributed directly other than through taxes to religious or ultra-orthodox associations.
    Do you personally believe that he made a direct donation without paying taxes to one of these associations?

  220. Yehuda:
    So you don't believe.
    What can I do?
    It's just convenient for you not to believe, but I donate directly to non-profit organizations (and I said it too) a lot of money.
    If I were a liar like you I could resort to a similar tactic and say that I don't believe you are religious and that in my opinion you are actually a secularist who is trying to make the religious people smell bad with his lies.

  221. Mr. Rottweiler
    I do not believe that you have directly donated (not through taxes) to a religious or ultra-orthodox association ever.
    From what you wrote it is clear that you also do not claim that you contributed directly to one of these associations other than by paying taxes.

  222. Yehuda:
    Your insolence crosses all limits.
    Even if you think that paying income tax and national insurance is mandatory (which you can avoid and even reverse the intention only if you are ultra-Orthodox), then my contribution to non-profit organizations is a contribution according to your definition as well.
    Therefore - to continue to discredit - you simply ignore her.

  223. Yair
    He does not donate a penny to anyone
    He holds the opinion that the person who pays income tax is a voluntary contributor because instead he could have disappeared his profits and not pay.
    And regarding volunteering, I assume you are talking about the fact that the volunteers are idlers who do not work and therefore have free time. This is very far from the truth.

  224. Yehuda:
    In front of everyone you claim that I said things that everyone can see that I did not say.
    Don't you even mind getting laid?

  225. Year:
    You are absolutely right.
    I have many qualms about donating because I know the waste and discrimination that the associations use.
    On the other hand - some of the money also goes to good causes and I can afford to pay even knowing that only - let's say - a third of the money will go to a worthy cause (and contrary to the lies that have been told here - I care so much about the real needy - that I am willing to donate three times as much just so that they too get something ).
    As soon as the state starts applying its laws to the evading sector as well - all these problems will be solved because there will no longer be a need for associations.

  226. Mr. Rottweiler
    In front of everyone, you claim that paying income tax and national insurance is a voluntary contribution.
    You really believe that everyone who does not raise taxes and pays real taxes is righteous and charitable.
    Who do you want to convince with such a false distortion?
    If so, it is appropriate that the tax authorities carefully examine your case.

  227. Yehuda,
    The reason that many ultra-Orthodox people join associations is very simple. Most of them don't work, and they have a lot of free time. In addition to this, the associations are an instrument for receiving funds from the government and citizens. And yes, the founders of the associations make a very good living from the donations.
    In fact, the government in its support of the associations, from the government comes most of the funds of the associations, also contributes to a huge waste, since the associations do work parallel to the National Insurance, and also supports social corruption processes, because, unlike government institutions, there is almost no supervision over the actions of the associations.
    Therefore, since Makhal is certainly aware of these things, I was surprised to hear from him that he donates money to them.

  228. And of course, Yehuda, as I said and you are trying to obscure, my funding for the associations is through a donation that is a donation from the language of volunteering.

  229. Yehuda:
    No one thinks I'm a liar.
    Even you don't think so, but the claim that they think I'm a liar is your torani (torani) lie.
    I and people like me pay the bulk of the income tax and the bulk of the national insurance and the bulk of the financing of the associations.
    You know all this.

  230. Mr. Rottweiler
    We understand you very well. You believe that the income tax is your contribution to the ultra-Orthodox!
    So now you will understand why they think here that you are a liar.
    Income tax is not a contribution but a percentage that you must set aside for the state on profits.
    If you don't pay tax in Israel you will go to prison or not
    But in the US if you are caught for not paying taxes you will surely be in jail.
    This donation is a voluntary donation.

  231. Yehuda :
    Apparently the facts just don't interest you.
    Did I say that I donate a lot of money to these associations? I said! But it doesn't bother you to claim that I don't care about those who benefit from my money.
    You are just a disgusting liar.
    As I explained - most of the help to the needy comes from state institutions funded by people like me.
    In addition to that - the associations are also funded by people like me.
    In addition to that - the lion's share - of both the state's funds and the funds of the associations goes to the ultra-Orthodox.

    In short - lies and demagoguery are your main tools - tools for the eyes.

  232. Mr. Weinstein
    Here you have solved the problem
    Quickly appoint you chief adviser to the government

  233. The article says: 200 repent, but of these 98 were previously secular or non-religious traditionalists, 98 people who were lost to the Israeli manufacturing economy. 21% of Jews aged 20 and over report that today they are more religious than they were in the past.
    The reason for the religious trend in Israel is a failed government policy and the nature of the government. The government encourages social disparities. The salary of every small manager is dozens of times higher than the salary of a worker. The contractor's workers are abused and lack basic rights. A contractor is one of the most serious injustices and people go over it in silence. Israel has embraced pig capitalism on the one hand and on the other hand the government pours millions into synagogues and ultra-Orthodox education.
    People who were previously in the middle class are falling below the poverty line. The government is budgeting for individual settlements on the top of a rejected hill, and it is not at all clear whether they will be returned or not in a peace agreement. They will probably be returned, because America will not let Israel keep anything. There is no clear policy, but the money flows into construction. And they destroy and build and destroy and build - and everything costs money instead of formulating a clear policy regarding construction. The state needs to reduce disparities in terms of salaries of senior officials, make it easier for the weaker sections, not pour billions into ultra-Orthodox education and yeshivots, formulate a clear policy on the issue of settlements - because in the peace agreement Israel will be forced by America and Europe to withdraw quite a few settlements in which the government has dispersed millions of shekels. The lack of a clear policy and the deterioration of the population in the middle class to poverty and economic and security uncertainty lead people straight to religion and also to run to the accepted of all kinds and similar help. The Kabbalists make millions when the population becomes poor and poor.

  234. Mr. Rottweiler
    True, we don't need associations for the rich to get richer and the poor to get sick and old
    Let them fall behind, you probably don't need them.
    The poor are of interest only to the ultra-Orthodox.

  235. Ofer:
    Just because there is a proverb does not make the proverb true.
    Is the hat really burning on the thief's head?
    Yehuda lied and I proved that he lied.
    Now go believe him.

  236. Blizovsky
    And how many secular people volunteer compared to how many religious people volunteer in this association in your opinion?
    And how much do the heads of the association pay themselves and how much do they pay the doctors who work there do you know about the case? known to me
    The ultra-Orthodox society has the highest number of non-profit organizations in Israel.
    So who are you seculars helping except for your own personal convenience.
    Culture icons in the form of a star is born and models like Ms. Bar are proud of their evasion from the IDF.

    Mr. Rottweiler
    Mr. Ofer feels like everyone reading here that you are baring your teeth.

  237. And by the way, Yehuda:
    Why are associations even necessary?
    Why doesn't the state have money to help those who need it?
    Because a huge part of the population - not only does not contribute to the state, but it sucks to the bone.
    And yet - most of what happens in the country - happens through the state institutions and not through the associations.
    My father mentioned Magen David Adom but this is just a small example. What about the National Insurance?
    With all due respect to the associations - most of the help to the needy (who are mostly ultra-Orthodox) comes from state institutions that are financed mainly from secular taxes.

  238. Yehuda:
    Did you read what I wrote?
    No keyboards are used in the Shaked patrol (at least in my time they were not used).
    The army decided that he would get more out of me if he used my intellectual skills, but I gave him my all.

    I don't have anything to say - only objective data.

    The ultra-Orthodox are more organized about charity associations.
    I know this because all these associations receive money from me.
    By the way - my wife and I recently decided to sort things out between us after it turned out to us that most of these associations contact both of us at the same time and receive from us a double donation of what we decided to give. Since the decision - all donations are concentrated with my wife.

    Anyway - all the money of these associations comes from people like me.

  239. Ofer:
    Person A approaches Person B and gives him a contradiction.
    Asker B: Is this joking or serious?
    A answers him: It's serious.
    Says B: Very good - because I don't like that kind of laughter.

    But it's just a joke.
    In reality - your comment 187 is sickening - whether it was written in jest or whether it was written seriously.

  240. Rothschild
    Bullying against ultra-Orthodox is allowed and against secularists is prohibited?
    What did you do in the army for 20 years warming a chair and kneeling next to a screen. What war did you participate in outside the room with the keyboard.
    Perhaps you could indicate how many associations of secular volunteers exist for the sick for disaster situations and the like and how many such associations were established by ultra-Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox staff them as volunteers.
    Some of your secular friends volunteer in charities that help others.
    Yes, there are secular associations to help dogs and cats, God forbid, but not for humans.

  241. Father I'm sorry, but about Rotch-Yild you are talking nonsense.
    How is it possible that a man like him can be considered a vegetarian?

  242. Erez Dan:

    I said in a previous comment (135) that although there is a difference between the ultra-Orthodox and the national religions, the difference is only in the method by which they try to establish a Halacha state.
    For example - Rabbi Moshe Zvi Naria - founder of Bnei Akiva, once said the Israeli democracy (and I quote): "We don't have tolerance, we have patience!"
    In other words - he gives the process more time but his hope is that it will happen.

    In another place, he expressed his sympathy with the following opinion: "The five-pointed raised hand in lawlessness and the ways of the Gentiles] means the secular founders of the state, 7], with no trace of the true holiness of Israel, which covers its clay with the slag of fake nationalism, with the grain of history and the affection of the language [...] He is about to be turned into a destroyer and a monster, and in the end as well into the hatred of Israel and the Land of Israel, when we have already seen from experience […]. Without the light of the Torah, it is impossible to buy the pure nationalism that befits a holy nation, and a different nationalism will turn into a blasphemy" [Channel XNUMX, Deuteronomy in memory of Moshe Zvi Naria]."

    The only religious current that does not wish for the destruction of Israeli democracy is the reformist current

  243. Yehuda:
    Enough with the crazy bullshit.
    So you found a religious man who served in the army and was even a hero.
    There are many of them - and this does not change the fact that most of the ultra-orthodox evade.
    I also don't feel that I personally owe him anything.
    I am also a lieutenant colonel in the reserves, I served in the army for over twenty years and for part of my service I was in the Shaked patrol.
    The income tax I paid to the State of Israel far exceeds all the gross you earned and will ever earn.
    By what right do you call me a parasite - ya %^)&*(##^&^*)!

  244. Blizovsky
    The religious officers who make up the leading cadre in my army are mostly ultra-Orthodox religious.
    An ultra-Orthodox religious person is a person who observes light to severe mitzvot, most of them come from settlements where the kippahs are indeed knitted, but the religious people there are careful to observe all the mitzvot.
    While you take pride in heating the chairs, these officers sacrifice their lives to keep you warm and quiet.
    And what kind of no-values, hedonistic, cocaine-making society do you belong to?
    After all, most of the children who come out of this society evade the IDF, see the singers
    The model artists is your spoiled friend who is not willing to sacrifice anything
    for the sake of the other.

  245. Both Michael and I served in the army. Michael even reached a high rank on a regular basis, although not in combat roles but definitely in combat support roles. Show me that apart from the 200 people a year in Nahal Haredi, which they also want to cut, there are Haredim in the army out of a population of hundreds of thousands of people.

  246. Blizovsky
    They sacrificed their lives so you could mutter hate speech against whatever saint they believed in and so you could chew without interruption

  247. Rothschild Blizovsky
    Lt. Col. Avner Goldman was a religious ultra-Orthodox helicopter pilot in the reserves but also
    Has a bachelor's degree in engineering, a master's degree in business administration and was in the middle of a doctorate in science, philosophy and Torah after he was released from the army about three years ago.
    Godelman was known among the religious community in Modi'in as the "salt of the earth" and a humble man who was one of the pillars of the Modi'in Beacon community where he regularly attended classes and delivered sermons to the members of the community.

  248. Filled with vermin eaters, at least not Michael because he is a vegetarian, but parasites? At whose expense do we live, after all, we work and pay taxes so that people mutter in yeshivas and kill in the Torah tent. And we are the parasites? You are confused unless the donkey is the parasite of the leech sitting on its back.

  249. Rothschild Blizovsky
    The religious officers are many of them observant of ultra-orthodox mitzvahs on a minor or minor basis.
    The head of the IDF's James Bonds was an ultra-Orthodox religious officer
    The late Lt. Col. Emmanuel Moreno.
    One of the senior pilots who was killed in the helicopter disaster in Romania is an ultra-Orthodox religious
    The late Lt. Col. Avner Goldman
    These sacrificed their lives for vermin-eating parasites like you

  250. Tell me Yehuda, have you lost your mind?
    How exactly do the things you cited make us evasive parasites?
    In fact - Benny Gantz does not speak at all about the phenomenon of ultra-orthodox evasion.
    I think he is also wrong in his words - but that is another story.

  251. Rothschild Blizovsky
    I wonder what you will say about this, according to the article you are the dodging parasites

    Benny Gantz: "Don't be afraid of religious strengthening in the army"
    The Deputy Chief of Staff, Benny Gantz, referred to the growing increase in the number of religious officers in the IDF and clarified that "as long as the source of authority is the government and this is maintained, there is no need to fear internal military separatism."
    "There is no need to fear processes of religious strengthening in the army," said Deputy Chief of Staff Benny Gantz today (Wednesday), referring to the growing increase in the number of religious officers serving in the IDF. Gantz, who spoke at the "Religious and Secular Conference in the IDF" organized by the Kinneret Academic College and the Begin-Sadat Center at Bar Ilan University, said that immigration is a natural phenomenon that occurs throughout Israeli society. "I want to kill this myth. Brigadier General Golani, Commander Magellan or any other official were not chosen for their position because of their kippa but because of their skills and experience."
    "In most cases I don't even know if they have a cap on their head or not. The whole story needs to be brought into proportion, and if you ask me, there is no story here at all," Gantz said. "It is a sane phenomenon of a dynamic society that each time a different group in the population takes the lead. In the past these were the kibbutz movement and now the knitted domes".

  252. At least state by implication that you differentiate between the extremists and all other religious people

  253. And I will quote you, Erez Dan, from our sources (not an exact wording - but approximately):
    He who shows mercy to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful.

  254. Erez Dan:
    Maybe tell me what's sarcastic in my words?
    I showed you what was wrong with your words. There was no sarcasm in that.
    I am not educating Khaldi to hate anyone - certainly not my brothers.
    On the other hand, I don't see anyone who thinks of me as the donkey of Messiah - a brother.

  255. And one more thing about brainwashing:
    If you watched last night the movie "Taken on a weekday" that was shown on the second channel, you saw how tender children are educated because the secular is like a devil who forcibly cuts religious people's wigs; How are they taught about the Zionists who are happy for the fate of Jews who are put on trains in the Holocaust; How they cry over the establishment of new Israeli courts. This orchestra of hatred is dominated by the ultra-orthodox community, whose money goes into their pockets from the kosher supervision of the 'orthodox community'.
    Here is part of the story:

  256. Michael, you are very cynical and it's a shame,
    It's hard to have a constructive debate with you.

    In any case, your child's future is not threatened by the religious, you can be calm about this,
    There are other more terrifying threats. And I hope for their sake that you don't poison them with brotherly hatred.

    Good luck to you, Erez

  257. Michal:
    And besides - as I said before - I wish religiosity was limited to belief in creationism.
    The fact is that belief in creationism is only a small part of religion because religion is a set of laws that derives its authority from the claim enacted by the same creator.
    These laws are barbaric laws that the religious are trying to impose on us night and day (because they really believe in God and truly believe that God is almighty, all knowing and always just and the merciful and the nerd commanded them to act according to the same set of laws).
    They really believe that they don't need to go to the army or earn a living and that it is completely fair that Messiah's donkey will take care of all these in their place.
    They completely believe that preventing women from entering Mea Shearim is a mitzvah commanded by a spaghetti monster that you don't care if they believe in it.
    You need to understand that while you are fighting for their right to believe what they want, part of what they want to believe is that they are allowed to make your life miserable and even kill you.

  258. Michal:
    The argument here is not just between you and the one arguing with you.
    There are many viewers who do not participate in the debate but only read it.
    Some of them are surely still trying to formulate their position and for some it is clear that the debate presented here helps.
    Besides - the decision that someone cannot be convinced by logic shows complete disdain for that someone.
    I prefer to give people a chance and in my experience - here and there it also justifies itself and suddenly someone understands.

  259. Michael - I think my opinion was not fully understood either. I talked about things in general, in the bird's eye view. I understood your intention when you said that I do impose my secularism on them by being secular. But that's how I define myself, and everyone is allowed to define themselves as they want. Let's make it simple - the fact that I support evolution and the big bang should not offend the religious person, and the fact that he supports creationism should not offend me. If one of us started trying to convince the other to support his theory with dirty manipulations (and not with the help of a debate with valid arguments) - that would be brainwashing. I wasn't talking about brainwashing specifically regarding the comments here.
    When I said that there is no point in arguing, I meant that just as I, as a person who does not believe in God, will not suddenly start thinking like such a person after the argument - the same way the religious person will not start thinking like a person who does not believe in God. If I know I won't be convinced - I won't try to argue to convince, it's pointless. On the other hand - if each of the parties knows what the views of the opposing party are, we can understand where we can compromise and where they can compromise. I mean, my intention was that we should debate in order to reach some sort of compromise, because as you said - we are at a crossroads regarding the influence of religion and Halacha in the country, and not debate in order to convince. I hope my intention was understood

  260. Erez Dan:
    You continue to demonstrate the fact that you do not understand what science is.
    There is no evidence in science! There just isn't! No matter how many times you ask me for proof of a scientific claim - I will always answer you that it has no proof and that it only has supporting evidence.
    This is also what the Big Bang has - there is a lot of evidence in the current situation that indicates that this is what did happen.
    And as for the connection between interwoven particles - this is something that was measured experimentally and it doesn't matter at all if I can explain how it happens. What is important is that the matter has been tested in many experiments and confirmed for fatigue!

    And of course this has nothing to do with the rabbit issue because here the exact opposite happened! It was proved in an experiment that the Torah's claim is wrong! What is so hard to understand here?!

    If you feel like protecting someone who is trying to take over your soul - I have no way of opening your eyes, but there is no way that poor moral preaching will convince me to give up my children's future for an hour of silence.

  261. Michal:

    Something I received in an email that may interest you:מאה-שערים-12.html?sms_ss=facebook

    Hello my dear friends, I really wished with all my heart for one quiet vacation but apparently not. As you can read in this year's article, the ultra-Orthodox community has decided that women are not allowed to enter Mea Shearim on the holiday of Sukkot.

    There is a girl who opened an event on Facebook for a demonstration on 24.9 Friday at 10:00 am.
    I corresponded with her and offered to help organize the march. She doesn't really understand it and it turns out that she didn't even ask for a police permit. She thought of going to Mea Shearim for fun with anyone who would confirm arrival on Facebook.
    Today me and Laura Warton went to submit a permit for the march to the police in the Zion area. We have another half hour meeting with the station manager.

    I want to invite all of you as individuals and as organizations to take part in the issue!!!!
    I want to hear your opinion.
    I want to know which organizations want to participate and does the forum as a forum want to lead the move???

    As Laura Wharton wrote:
    Mea Shearim is still part of the State of Israel. We must not put up with the attempts of extremists to establish inappropriate rules of conduct in the public sphere. If they don't want to see
    Women - to stay at home. As long as we pay for road construction, street cleaning,
    Child allowances and care for their protection. We will also expect appropriate behavior towards us and towards every other citizen.

    Please make all clear as soon as possible...
    Have a lovely day for all of us

    Rona Orobano
    Vice-Chairman of the Student Union
    Bezalel Academy of Art and Design

  262. Michael Rothschild,

    in short..

    From your words…
    "The theory that an almighty being in the name of God created the world (including the rabbit) and dictated to Moshe Rabbinu a book in which it is written that the rabbit raises a living being failed in an experiment as soon as someone looked at a rabbit.
    A theory that failed the experiment certainly cannot cope with a theory that did not fail the experiment."

    Do you have any way to prove the late big bang theory? Or maybe explain scientifically why twin particles affect each other even from a distance of millions of km? When did you see an atomic particle last time? Pretty ridiculous

    And in general in all my posts I try to comment on the style that borders on fascism, so brazenly to denounce an entire public, people most of whom are people of morals and values, people who contribute more than those who steal, from the pillars of Jewish Israeli society. So it's true that there are extremists and there are violent ones and there are robbers, what in your neighborhood doesn't it seem like? I do not believe.

    Enough with the style of Ganon, grow up and return the masterpiece to this blessed site!!!

    Good signature, Erez (for those who believe and for those who don't)

    *Anonymous I think you got on top of me 😉

  263. pleasantness:
    Did you even read what I wrote?!
    The press is not about brainwashing.
    Brainwashing based on specific techniques and expressing an opinion that is contrary to yours or someone else's is not brainwashing.
    I have explained exactly how ultra-orthodox engage in brainwashing and you are welcome to tell me which of the things I presented as brainwashing that they do are not brainwashing or that they do not do.
    I will remind you of a part:
    Is systematic prevention of information a brainwashing tool?
    Don't the ultra-orthodox apply this method to all their children?
    Actually it's enough - after the training process they go through, it's a wonder how many normal people remain among them!
    And what about lies? Aren't these brainwashing? Aren't these companies doing that? Is my father really living at the expense of the ultra-Orthodox? You yourself said no but one of the idiots here claimed exactly that. These companies have no qualms about lying and feel free to do so at any time.
    Recently, the media also published the words of some rabbi who said that in order to repent it is permissible to lie. Do you understand?! They have permission from the authorities!
    Isn't the war of attrition where they keep repeating the same things without paying attention to what they were told a brainwashing technique?
    They even train them to brainwash themselves

    And it turns out that they are doing quite well:
    Fact - they managed to convince you of things completely opposite from reality.
    I already voted here The Taub Center's report on employment – So on what basis do you claim the opposite?

    And what about The information about their evasion from military service ? You were sold some kind of lie here too?! It's always good to find out the truth!

    The closing of the eyes and apathy under the guise of tolerance displayed by the secular public will further defeat us in our choice.

  264. My father and the one who murmured before,
    I'm with you, it turns out that the fight is about the color of the country: democracy or theocracy.

  265. To one who muttered in the past: if you were prime minister and less gentle then you would end up in the situation of the Soviet Union - where Torah study was banned and God was the leader.

    David Ben-Gurion and his accomplices had enough sense to understand that a state of Jews that tries to tattoo the Torah's sheaves will not survive. That's why he made compromises with Hempdal and probably (my hypothesis) with Aguda as well. That's why it was decided to use the expression: Create Israel- in the Declaration of Independence so that everyone can interpret it as they wish. If David Ben-Gurion had not compromised, he would have lost me and millions of other Jews who would not immigrate to Israel. So who said that compromise is weakness?

  266. My father and the one who murmured in despair,
    I'm with you, it turns out that the fight is about the color of the country: democracy or theocracy.

  267. My dear father, you are doing a very important job. If I were to draft the article I would be less subtle.

    As someone who started out as an ultra-Orthodox, degenerated into a knitted kippah and today, mercifully, is mostly an unbeliever, let me clarify a few things:

    Secular is a stupid definition of religious people so that they can generalize in one group everyone who is not them. This is a bad and nonsensical definition because we are not organized in a group, we don't have a synagogue where we shout to God without a cap. We have absolutely nothing in common beyond the denial of the religious rants.

    And with all the sadness involved, indeed, the "secular" life is inherently empty. Everyone will fill them with what they like. There is no secular ideology, there are no secular values, and all this because there is no one dictating rules (rabbi, x-ray, prophet, priest, imam or schnitzel)

    On the other hand, if I say, for example: "I hate Muslims / Haredim / Oren Zarif" - this is a legitimate generalization. Anyone in this group can drop their delusions and join me immediately.

    This generalization is legitimate, because the generalization is not external. It's not me who generalizes, but the religious "generalizes" - and when I say religious, it means ultra-Orthodox, traditionalists, pagan Christians, those who talk to a cat or any person who decides that he is acting in a certain way because he was told and not because this way is proven to be correct. To these you can add other herds that follow an unproven ideology - Nazism, homeopathy, occultists of all kinds - I have to go into detail, but the page is too short to contain all the delusions.

    This war is existential. Democracy (which there is no doubt also exists in Turkey and Gaza) does not solve the problem because, no matter how much we deny it, the majority of the public is stupid - Hamas, Erdogan, Hitler, Ahmadinejad and many other scum were elected in democratic elections. Every time this happens, the other democracies say that the elections were not democratic. It's just gibberish designed to protect the method. The elections in Germany were completely legitimate (from the perspective of democracy) and so was the rise of Hamas. I have no doubt that if elections were held today in North Korea, the moron would remain in office.

    The way to prevent this deterioration is to stop compromising, the liberal problem is the perception that rights belong to everyone combined with a reluctance to fight. This method will always lose against those who are willing to sacrifice their lives for this or that nonsense.

    That's why you need to act much more aggressively: understand that rights come only to those who are willing to give the same rights to others. Do not lower your head, do not let this garbage continue to spread. Don't let it continue to destroy the education system. And when someone says to you "Why don't you believe in God?!?" - not to smile apologetically but to explain to him that he must grow up. think to learn Let him read Douglas Adams, Dawkins, and the rest of the "sacreds of the secular nation". When religious people do not come to a court summons, send YSM forces there. Stop referring to the leaders of the community (Bedouin, Druze, Haredi) when there are riots, but deal with the details. This will reduce the herd effect. Not to give up one soldier because "it's not economical", not to allow different routes for those who consider themselves different. Do not discriminate between citizens.

    If it doesn't happen today, there will be nowhere to run. The United States "in god we trust", hypocritical Europe is full of paganism and the rest of the world is nothing to talk about.

    and if not now, when

  268. "This number adds quite a number of seats in the Knesset to the extremely excessive number of the ultra-Orthodox, which is constantly increasing as a result of the high natural increase in this sector."

    An excessive number? Who are you to make such a statement? This is a statistical article on a scientific website.
    High natural reproduction is not a crime, and the representation of this population in the Knesset is accordingly.
    We understand that you don't like ultra-Orthodox, but they have the right to be here just like you - and if their number in the population is large, they also have the right to be represented in the Knesset accordingly.

    And yes, I am also secular and you managed to upset me very much with the tone of this quasi-scientific article.

  269. Erez Dan studied philosophy of postmodernism, apparently..

    By the way, on the same topic, I have a strong feeling that the Sages would have gotten along great with postmodernism.
    Each sermon is an exercise in deconstructing the simplicity written in black and white in the scriptures...

  270. Michael Rothschild - Those who are engaged in brainwashing are precisely the journalists who try to market the entire ultra-Orthodox public as burning flags of the State of Israel and burning trash cans.
    I bought this information in my youth. Today I know that this is not the overall picture.

    Precisely those who are considered mainstream rabbis in the ultra-orthodox public came out as a buffer against the use of violence against any person and any object. They even requested that certain demonstrations not be attended by young people who might make a mess. Unless you think I'm lying now?!
    There is violence among large parts of the country's residents in all its sectors and issues. So why blame a specific party for violence?
    In the ultra-orthodox public, there is a worldview in which demonstrations are a significant tool in managing life. But as long as they do legal demonstrations - what's the problem here?

    From what I understand, there is indeed an increase in the rate of ultra-Orthodox men who work. Not to mention the ultra-Orthodox women. So maybe the saying that Haredim don't work is no longer relevant today.

    Mr. Avi Blizovsky does not live at the expense of others. But there is a phenomenon that is getting stronger in the recent period in which secular boys from the Gush Dan area do not enlist in the army under various pretexts. (A statistic was recently published about the rate of recruits among graduates of a certain high school {and it was a popular high school} and it's a shame that I don't remember where it was published).

    It's always good to find out the truth!

  271. Nils Datal,
    It may have been necessary to make a clearer separation between the ultra-Orthodox and the national religious, but for me it was clear as soon as he spoke about the postponement of core subject studies, violent protests, starving mothers, low work productivity, and the rejection of modernity.

    It is clear that we are not talking about the national religious people because none of these issues concern them.

  272. Beyond the theological discussion, I find it difficult to find actual arguments related to the topic of the article.
    (Calling a certain argument ridiculous and demagogic does not constitute a counter-argument).

  273. It will not support the false name of pluralism and individual freedom. Repentance organizations are allowed to run amok but must not be returned to them.
    The left has always preferred coalitions with Shas - twice March demanded such a coalition in the Rabin and Barak governments, the main thing is not to sit with the Likud. Not long ago, there was a confrontation between Shahar Ilan from the Hadosh association and Yossi Beilin on the issue on New TV, and Yossi Beilin said he would do it again. This is how it turns out that in the elections the people of Israel only decide on one thing - with whom Shas will sit in the coalition.
    Salvation will not come from the left who thinks Shas is a partner in a peace agreement. We saw the uproar caused by the Rabobabadia just two weeks ago.
    In any case, it turns out that even in 2005, the excuse for the compromise regarding daylight saving time was that the fight against the ultra-orthodox should be postponed to another time. When will this other time come? I know that Nitzen Horowitz is trying to tip the scales in this direction in Meretz and he is working hard, but the question is whether it is not too little and too late to save the State of Israel.

  274. To Ron:

    Unfortunately, I probably didn't explain myself properly.

    My father bound *all* the repentants together.
    And although I do not agree with him at all, regarding what he wrote about the ultra-Orthodox crowd.
    Nevertheless, I separated and wrote about the national religious group, even there there are converts.
    And I didn't understand what ignorance he was talking about, etc.

    And so, for example, the following is ridiculous:
    - to allow the existence of a movement of repetition of the question in size and with similar means to those of repentance.
    Who is preventing you from establishing a return movement in the question with means? (Don't worry, the New Israel Fund will support...)

  275. Someone is telling the truth and the ultra-Orthodox are shouting? A bunch of hypocrites! This is not Herzl's Zionist vision!

  276. to me:
    You are a liar and a liar.
    Nothing you said in your last comment is true - and you know it.

    You did not understand the subtleties of my words.
    You impose your secularism on the religious.
    You don't force them to be secular, but you force your secularism (meaning - the fact that you are secular) on them - and you have no other choice.
    The only ones who resort to brainwashing techniques towards the other are the religious snobs.
    They do this primarily by not allowing their hands to be exposed to any information that is inconsistent with the goal of making them believe in nonsense.
    In talkbacks, they engage in wars of attrition and defamation without any arguments (there really are no shortage of examples even in the current discussion).
    They lie without batting an eyelid to advance their position: in the current debate they are trying to sell grandmother's stories about the percentage of employed among the ultra-Orthodox, they claim that Avi Blizovsky lives on their account, they claim that I am lying without even pointing out a single wrong thing I said, they engage in demagoguery constantly while trying to arouse irrelevant feelings of guilt. They avoid substantive debate like fire!
    They tell my father what he himself would have thought if all the ultra-Orthodox had mobilized (what a grotesque lie!) and compare anyone who dares to argue with them to Nazis.
    You probably don't know what brainwashing is, but bringing arguments to support your position is not brainwashing - that's called arguing. Do you not believe in the legitimacy and necessity of debates?
    I suggest you read this discussion again and see who is brainwashing and who is arguing.

    Now - not every topic is worth debating.
    For example - on taste and smell.
    But there are issues that are on our minds and turning the country into a halachic state - a process that is in the middle - is one of them.
    It is clear, therefore, why responsible people devote their time and energy to this and are willing to suffer false slanders from a mob and even arguments with people who think like them but do not understand that during this time it is necessary to fight for their position.

  277. Blizovsky, even if the religious were all enlisted in the army, etc. and worked, even then you would be upset and annoyed by the results of the survey.
    You are just like the ancient Egyptians who feared the natural multiplication of the Israelites, then decided to enslave them and make them slaves. (See Exodus XNUMX:XNUMX-XNUMX).
    Your panic is due to political reasons. You know that in the end the religious will take power in a democratic way, and that is your main fear and that of all the small-minded people who fight in everything to do with Judaism.
    Unfortunately, the Smolenians started behaving like the ancient Egyptians. The Smolenians negotiated with terrorist organizations against the law, and brought about the Oslo Accords.
    Later they introduced the terrorist organizations into Judea and Samaria and provided them with weapons so that they would kill Jews.
    The Smolenians carried out a transfer to thousands of innocent Jews from Gush Katif who worked and served in the army, just to break their spirit.
    The Smolenians want to establish another Arab enemy state in the territories of Judea and Samaria just to carry out another transfer to hundreds of thousands of religious Jews who live there, with the aim of breaking their spirit once and for all.
    Government is important to Smolenians because of the benefits of pleasure and honor, and the end justifies the means.

  278. Ofer, a good signature for you too
    My desire is to share science and education with everyone, and it pains me that there is a body that has many believers for whom education is a derogatory word and is unwilling to listen to criticism and, moreover, thinks itself superior to me and prevents its children from even understanding what is written on this site (people thank me for the translations from English because it is difficult for them to read - in Yeshiva they finished at the fifth grade level). Any criticism straight up in them raises up and down sirens of anti-Semitism. And I already said that I am a Zionist and the son of a Holocaust survivor, how can I be anti-Semitic, just because I want a normal state? Should abnormality be the norm that you and the other commenters who support the sector want to see?

    And by the way, you don't believe, and thank you for the compliment about my wisdom, let's assume that this is true for the purpose of the discussion, that a smart person like me does not understand that there is a creator of the world, well, precisely because I am knowledgeable in science, I am sure that there is no creator of the world, what does he have to look for in one poor planet that surrounds one From 10 to the power of 23 stars in the universe, and even just a medium star, in a universe that has existed for 13 billion years more or less. We will see you assuming that God exists in such a situation, when there is no proof of his existence except in the imagination of the authors of the Tanakh and his believers to this very day. By the way, there were once rumors that Shelly Yachimovich had repented. To refute these rumors she went to the media and quoted things that were said to her - if you help people so much, how come you are not religious. So I'm in good company.

    By the way, the title of the series is a paraphrase of the title of Carl Sagan's last book, A Haunted World, in which he describes his disappointment that despite all the achievements of science, people prefer to believe in religions, crystals, astrology, Atlantis, etc.

  279. Father good morning,

    Well done to you, you managed to get a lot of demons out of the bottle. (appropriate to the title of your article)
    As far as I'm concerned, the step you've taken is worthy of appreciation, because it's obvious to everyone that you have a huge fig leaf to cover your pubic hair, and not reveal one directly on such a charged topic.
    You could easily hide your opinions, and continue to spread your teachings widely (through the site).
    It is clear to you that when you give free rein to your opinions, you endanger the continued existence of the site as scientific.
    It's clear to everyone that this exposure was nothing but a shot in the foot, yet you followed the straight path.
    Indeed, you are a worthy and true person, who is running away from the hypocrisy rampant in our districts.
    I am a little sorry for the insult you feel from the disdainful attitude of the religious towards you.
    Simply put, don't take it personally. It's kind of like if someone came to you in the middle of the day and told you that it's night, would you try to convince him that he's wrong, or would a twitch of laughter appear on the edge of your lips?
    You don't have to answer me, the answer is clear to me. They just don't believe that a smart person like you doesn't understand that there is a creator for the world. (By the way, I don't believe you either)
    You'll be surprised, but it's precisely your piety to come off as rude in such a blatant way, that creates a feeling in me that you literally invited this drama upon yourself. Maybe I confess from my heart, but my feeling is that you are indeed looking for an answer.

    I wish you and your family a year of fulfillment, happiness and health.
    happy New Year,

  280. Lahud, I did not understand your intention, do you want us to surrender to the ultra-Orthodox just so that the struggle will not be used as an explanatory weapon? OK. Suppose we surrender and we all become satmars, who will protect the State of Israel, the exact opposite will happen, the State of Israel will fall if we surrender to the satmars. By the way, you claim that the majority of ultra-Orthodox opinion abhors them - well, let's see them do something against the crazy people who burn garbage cans because it bothers them that secular people who come to Jerusalem on Shabbat will have a place to park for an exorbitant fee, or to protect a mother who starved her children. They don't, so for me they are all Satmers.

    I also believe that the Arabs are not an enemy, that the enemy is extreme Islam, which is no less crazy than extreme Judaism, and that we happen to be at the front against it, but they are causing death to Americans and Europeans (those who do not submit to them in the name of "pluralism"). If everyone works in high-tech and realizes that they are not chess pawns as part of a big plan to eliminate the new crusaders but people who have the right to a full and good life of their own they will not be my enemy either. In Arab countries, the responsibility of the state to produce educated generations that will advance even more economically is smaller than the responsibility of the State of Israel (although we are moving backwards with great strides).

  281. My father, from your comments in the previous articles of the writers on the site, I felt that you are a person with a way of life and mutual respect for humanity, in short a good person at the core, (performs "what is hated about you" and is a total ignoramus), I have not changed this opinion. This whole issue is bigger than the personality of this or that detail that gets swept up in the vortex of the debate, so don't take my words personally,

    As human beings, no one is immune to personality flaws, that's why I will attack your approach in the article, not you personally! First, to advance this controversy, what was your real purpose in writing this article? A provocation to wake up the "sleepy" public for the sake of a large "gathering of members" for your group being built? (in the best case scenario). An appeal to the unthinking souls of the foolish "commoners", who run away from the difficult to digest logical-mathematical reality? (which I do not deny). Unloading your personal fears? In any case, the emotional range that you use (perhaps) as a tool to confront the extremists on the other side, ranges from arrogance (quite repulsive in my opinion) for the sake of mercy, to loathing certain groups (not only religious ones) that borders on fascism. I point out the line of thought you used in the article, I emphasize that for me it does not indicate your character, since I do not know you personally! In my opinion you used very clumsy tools, there is no justification or respect for a person who considers himself educated and generally respects himself to touch them, even if the other side uses them against you! A fire is not extinguished with fire, but with water, which in the Torah was used for knowledge, that is, with more meticulous and delicate tools and not with brutal and rude tools (this is the original intention of the turning of the other cheek that Christianity did not even understand from its foundation). In doing so, you only disproved your claim of your moral superiority (or humanitarian if you feel that way, I don't see you as such), and you gave fuel to the group that is against you,

    Examples of your claims: A quote from response 69: "And leave the state to the Arabs and the ultra-Orthodox": Oh, think about the individual Arab (non-Orthodox) who is interested in science and who is the same "continent" in a total way, he is not a factor in this debate at all (as a rule, I see the Arabs as an enemy, but , is obligated according to the moral theory to separate the intimate boundary of the individual from his group when he lives with me in Israel, and therefore to take care of his dignity as a person according to the rules "man is created in his image" (not only a Jew) and "love your neighbor..." and "and love your neighbor" {the rule in its negative form Not to hate, of course not with the intention of being naive and committing suicide on the altar of false morality} if this does not contradict the rule of a mandatory war and only within its limits until its end).

    Regarding response 96, which happens to be the opposite in Iberia: "It does belong to us because we pay taxes and serve in the army.", Father, from your responses the one I mentioned again smells really unpleasant of, well, fascism. The country is yours, since when did you buy it? The natives of the region, Arabs and other minorities in the East, lived there even in the times when your ancestors mumbled Dzimera verses or Psalms in Europe, history is not bought with money or even with a regional renaissance, not that I am beautiful, but in any case I will not claim that Japan is my country, unless I have one of the historical-cultural contexts -Ethnic in a continuous and unbroken way and the cultural-religious argument you left out anyway, a little modesty. Even right-wingers like me respect the regional enemy, of course up to the limits of war (obligation not permission) and I have demands from him as a Jew. In any case, even in the eyes of modern Zionism, you do not leave something that was not yours in the first place, it is ours. This is the sublime Zionist idea of ​​Ben-Gurion, unfortunately only a few grasp its greatness, Jews and Arabs of all groups live together.

    My father, even in Ramat Aviv III, with all the difficulties and frictions, a consensual transfer or cultural coercion will never be carried out in the form of a coup, because your group has no western cultural stakes in the region, unless we arrive safely and peacefully again, war has no choice (obligatory according to the Torah language), which you decide Between us against our cousins ​​or peace and peace between us. Accept it or not, this is the Middle Eastern reality, which will exist (I very much hope not in future generations) at least in the near reality. Secondly, regarding comment number 134 of Datal who laughed at your "5-step solution", as far as I'm concerned, he's right for only one reason, your way is not practical to implement, it doesn't matter if your ideas are more advanced, we live in the Middle East, if you haven't noticed, you're ignoring From external factors that, even in your opinion, for example, are much worse and excluded from Chabad. The Arabs and the anti-Zionists will use it in the best case for a total confrontation of the Jewish state which acts against the so-called "authentic" ultra-Orthodox Jews (personally I see them as a Jewish sect stuck in the East German Lutheran past from the 16th century and not authentic Jews), in a fascist manner and we cannot escape from this, the anti-Zionists They will provoke a dangerous delegitimization on us that will swell to enormous dimensions than it is today and is represented by the stammers and the "hard" anti-Zionist core that even the majority of the "soft" anti-Zionist ultra-orthodox opinion totally abhors, our enemies are trying to trample on us in any inclusive form (apart from direct war of course ), from the level of our attitude towards the Arabs to our attitude towards the minorities within us, imagine the image of "racist" Zionists against the "authentic" ultra-Orthodox Jew in every world, does it bring up negative connotations for you? Only for this negative reason I did not list moral and positive reasons because of the length of the canvas, your plan in the beginning of its first stages will collapse.

  282. Dr. Nils,

    = meaningless general statements. demagogy. Just like you blame the married women of your article.

    Meaningless general statements??
    - Over 60% of adult ultra-Orthodox men do not work.
    - "He who repents condemns himself to a life of poverty and ignorance, but worse than that he condemns his many children that will be born to him
    Or her (this is true for both genders) for a life of ignorance and ignorance where the word education is a derogatory word
    The Talmud is more important than English and math." demagogy?
    After all, the ultra-orthodox sector is the poorest in the country, they prevent the core studies and thus build a barrier for themselves
    Entry into the labor market.

    Where is the demagogy? General statements? Maybe the truth is so hard and ugly that it's hard for you to admit its existence and you'd rather slander the person who pointed it out?

    1) I would love to hear, as a religious person, how you are better than me. It's not the ultra-orthodox who are condescending, well maybe neither, but surely you are too.

    Where is it claimed that he is better than you? He claimed that the ultra-Orthodox are ignorant and therefore implicitly that he himself is not ignorant. He claimed that the ultra-orthodox condemn their children to a life of poverty and ignorance and all implicitly that he does not do this. He claimed that the ultra-orthodox impose on the general public how to lead their lives and implicitly that he does not impose his lifestyle on others.
    He never recorded that he was "better". This was probably your interpretation of all the above, I will not say that I disagree with you.

    2) Funny that you treat the non-existence of God as an axiom. Proving that there is no God is surely something that cannot be proven, so you are only making fun of yourself.

    I did not see this comment of his, but in any case there is no way to treat the non-existence of God as an axiom. The burden of proof is on you.

    3) Difficulties in theory, not necessarily dropping the foundation. Even if there are difficulties regarding religion. The evidentiary infrastructure for the existence of God (and again you make a salad between religion and God and your whims, it sounds like you are very offended by the religious issue), as well as the evidentiary infrastructure for the existence of Judaism (assuming, whatever your theory, that there is such a thing), is not omitted if certain details are difficult or Do not get along.

    Difficulties in the theory, which manifest as internal contradictions, and a lack of any evidentiary infrastructure, definitely drop the foundation as you say.

    4) The level of education in the religious population is *greater* than in the general population, and this is despite the *wasting* of time in all kinds of religious nonsense.

    If religious matters are nonsense, then what kind of education exactly does the majority of the ultra-orthodox public have?

    5) People repent, I assume also for the reasons you mentioned. But it is convenient for you to mention only these reasons. You don't even bother to talk to the converts or listen to them. Many of them felt a sense of emptiness. The presentation of the things of Genesis as you present does not seem to them. Too casual. Your first insights seem to a lot of people (hmm.. probably some of them are not stupid), not trivial at all, and even, alas, incorrect.

    "Too casual" and "incorrect"? I mean you are saying that the scientific theories are wrong. that they are not true. And that's why repentance works. Can you detail how you break down these Genesis Sidaris? I guess you are a creationist. But on the other hand you referred to religion as "bullshit". you confused me.

    6) Beyond that, the 5 sections you mentioned are ridiculous, funny, or at least some of them. Indeed, this year with our joining the OECD, we feel an incredible improvement. Israel is changing direction. That's why the previous 5 sections are needed. Just ridiculous.

    - To stop the deterioration of the secular education system and its transformation into a religious one. *ridiculous? is funny?
    - to cancel many decrees that were imposed on us because of the ultra-Orthodox - to provide public transportation on Shabbat, to cancel the law
    missed ridiculous? is funny? You deny that the public you are a part of prevents me from using public transportation
    on saturday It makes you laugh?
    - Cancel all the benefits given to the ultra-Orthodox - from participation in property taxes to free student transportation
    to remote places, supplementing income and more. *It is absolutely ridiculous that there is a minority with so many
    economic privileges in Israel, which on the other hand contributes relatively little to the economy.
    - to allow the existence of a movement of repetition of the question in size and with similar means to those of repentance.
    *Of course, ridiculous and funny.

    7) I don't think you are anti-Semitic, but I certainly understand why they attached the nickname to you. You take extreme actions and opinions in the ultra-Orthodox camp, associate them with the general ultra-Orthodox camp, and use it as the line "Here you will see the ultra-Orthodox". And this is not demagoguery at all, of course.

    Are you frustrated around you? Preventing core studies is a move by the extremists of the ultra-Orthodox camp?
    The opposition to public transport? Low work productivity? The widespread condemnations that did not reach from around the religious camp for events such as the starving mother and the violent riots in ultra-Orthodox settlements?
    Do we live in the same country?

    You understand why they attached the anti-Semitic nickname to him, so you will understand why I attach the nickname *the robbed Cossack* to you.

  283. Dr. Nils,

    = meaningless general statements. demagogy. Just like you blame the married women of your article.

    Meaningless general statements??
    - Over 60% of adult ultra-Orthodox men do not work.
    - "He who repents condemns himself to a life of poverty and ignorance, but worse than that, he condemns his many children that will be born to him or her (this is true for both sexes) to a life of ignorance and ignorance where the word education is a derogatory word, that the Talmud fluff is more important than English and mathematics"

    1) I would love to hear, as a religious person, how you are better than me. It's not the ultra-orthodox who are condescending, well maybe neither, but surely you are too.
    2) Funny that you treat the non-existence of God as an axiom. Proving that there is no God is surely something that cannot be proven, so you are only making fun of yourself.
    3) Difficulties in theory, not necessarily dropping the foundation. Even if there are difficulties regarding religion. The evidentiary infrastructure for the existence of God (and again you make a salad between religion and God and your whims, it sounds like you are very offended by the religious issue), as well as the evidentiary infrastructure for the existence of Judaism (assuming, whatever your theory, that there is such a thing), is not omitted if certain details are difficult or Do not get along.
    4) The level of education in the religious population is *greater* than in the general population, and this is despite the *wasting* of time in all kinds of religious nonsense.
    5) People repent, I assume also for the reasons you mentioned. But it is convenient for you to mention only these reasons. You don't even bother to talk to the converts or listen to them. Many of them felt a sense of emptiness. The presentation of the things of Genesis as you present does not seem to them. Too casual. Your first insights seem to a lot of people (hmm.. probably some of them are not stupid), not trivial at all, and even, alas, incorrect.
    6) Beyond that, the 5 sections you mentioned are ridiculous, funny, or at least some of them. Indeed, this year with our joining the OECD, we feel an incredible improvement. Israel is changing direction. That's why the previous 5 sections are needed. Just ridiculous.
    7) I don't think you are anti-Semitic, but I certainly understand why they attached the nickname to you. You take extreme actions and opinions in the ultra-Orthodox camp, associate them with the general ultra-Orthodox camp, and use it as the line "Here you will see the ultra-Orthodox". And this is not demagoguery at all, of course.

  284. I will not refer to all the things that have been said since I responded the last time, but it is important for me to clarify something to Michael Rothschild who commented to me - the matter is not the compulsion of secularism or religiosity necessarily. I meant any world view I have against another. Arguing is good, putting forward arguments that you have considered and you stand behind them is good, but when you rape someone and brainwash them to "think like me" - one way or the other, it won't work. I do not impose my secularism on the religious by virtue of being secular, I simply create the concept of secularity by virtue of being secular (or, on the contrary - a religious person creates the concept of religion by virtue of being religious), because I live my life and I do not have too many "conflicts" with religious people in my life The everyday (at the conversational level, say). When I said coercion of secularism, I meant, as you said in the second part of the response, that I do not come to say "things should be as I see them" - that is, as a human being to try to impose my view on another person.
    You are right - it is indeed legitimate to go with a tank top wherever I want. I would also expect that if I just walk down the street with a tank top (and pants, of course) a religious person who is bothered by my lack of modesty - will not come and tell me about it. Let him think what he thinks. On the other hand, if I know that there is a population in a place that does not agree with me - I will either bypass the place, or I will follow the local laws, because yes, I am afraid that it will slip into violent lines.
    I hope my intention was made XNUMX percent clear.

  285. Machel
    All you are doing here is spreading poison and hate.
    And at the same time it's boring so you're also lying with a determined forehead.
    You are not interested in anything except attention to the self-inflation of some innocent people who have fallen on the net. A few days before Yom Kippur, the nonsense you are busy with will smell good for you.
    Go waste your time with Hamas and other stubborn people like you.
    Anyone looking at this site is wasting their time.
    I won't waste my time on you anymore.

  286. to me:
    What is this "when you preach the erasure of ultra-Orthodox or religious and perhaps even religious ultra-Orthodox from the country"?
    Why didn't you write "when you preach to change from the bouncer"?
    If you want to base your accusations on hallucinations then I have no reason to argue with you.
    Sweet dreams!
    Note that these inciting lies are actually an attempt to erase the other.
    In general - all the psychological analyzes you do to me are childish to the point of horror and there is no truth or point in the entire length of comment 131 you wrote.

    Erez Dan:
    Thanks for giving up on me and assuming that science is not axiomatic.
    Soon you will give up on me and agree to assume that the sun rises during the day!

    In my opinion, there is a very large number of misunderstandings in the phrase "rationalist people who wave science as a sure alternative to obscure questions..."
    Science is a method. A method for exploring the world. No one can wave a method for studying the world as if it were an answer to something - not even as if it were an answer to the question of how many are one and another.
    In the framework of science, scientific theories were developed.
    These theories express the best understanding we have reached in various questions about the world - including - sometimes - also heavy questions such as our origin.
    Theories are never certain and no person who understands what science is presents them as such.
    On the other hand - the accepted theories are nevertheless the best answer we have and in this sense - it is completely logical to prefer them over theories that failed the experimental test.
    For example - the theory that an almighty being in the name of God created the world (including the rabbit) and dictated to Moshe Rabbino a book in which it is written that the rabbit raises a living failure in an experiment as soon as someone looked at a rabbit.
    A theory that failed the experiment certainly cannot cope with a theory that did not fail the experiment.
    A person who waves a scientific theory as a certainty is not rational, but a person who waves it as a better theory than a theory that failed in an experiment is completely rational, and in my opinion the opposite direction is even more serious - a person who tries to continue to convince people of a theory that failed in an experiment - not only is he not rational - he is not honest!

    There are all kinds of religious.
    In my father's opinion (and also in my opinion) their beliefs are stupid.
    In a democratic country, people are allowed to express their opinion and precisely the attempt to prevent it from them is an attempt to establish a thought police.

    A rational person cannot claim the certain correctness of this or that theory.
    However - to claim that a theory that does not stand up to the experimental test is wrong - is actually something that can be done with complete certainty.
    Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to claim that religion and mysticism are fiction.
    I refer, of course, to religion as it is defined, and I am willing to refer more or less to any definition.
    The thing is that the people who try to defend religion often resort to another dishonest strategy and that is the strategy of blurring the definition.
    For example, expressions such as "the Torah is not a book of zoology" belong to this field, which ignore the fact that claims from the field of zoology appear in the Torah and are said only because it has been proven that what the Torah says in this field is wrong.
    In fact - every time someone shows that a certain religious claim is incorrect - the obsessive supporters of the religion evade by claiming (falsely) that the religion does not speak about the subject at all (and the tools used by them are many - this can be an ad hoc invention of new interpretations of words or an aerial claim that the scripture is just an example).

    Of course, when faced with this kind of stealth strategy, it is impossible to deal with logic and one only needs to denounce its dishonesty.

    The article was written in a certain reality that I have already described.
    The religious (this is true for all religious currents except the reformers! There are indeed exceptional details, but except for the refnarists there are no exceptional currents) aspire to establish a halachic state here (the knitted caps also aspire to this goal).
    A Halacha state is not a democratic state, but that does not prevent any of these currents from taking advantage of democracy to destroy it in the end (and the difference between the currents in this regard is only in the question of strategy and not in the question of the goal).
    In order to achieve this goal, they take advantage of every opportunity to increase religious legislation.
    So it's true - the ultra-Orthodox are more violent than the others - but the final goal is shared and the legitimacy of the ultra-Orthodox coercion relies quite a bit on the support of non-Orthodox religious people (as well as the support of secular people who don't understand what's going on here)

    Every reasonable person who sees the future is very afraid of the trends in which Israeli society is moving, but it is only natural that these concerns, as well as the frustration that arises from the fact that so many people do not understand the dishonesty of the religious strategy and the danger posed by it to the equality of human beings under the law (an equality that has long been trampled upon) and with a rough foot, but the number of shoes of this rough foot is increasing), will be reflected in his writing.

  287. As a national religious, I am not angry about the shallowness of your article, and your inability to distinguish between different groups, and about a general statement that I studied in elementary school, I know what it is!
    General statements are meaningless. demagogy. Just like you blame the married women of your article.

    1) I would love to hear, as a religious person, how you are better than me. It's not the ultra-orthodox who are condescending, well maybe neither, but surely you are too.
    2) Funny that you treat the non-existence of God as an axiom. Proving that there is no God is surely something that cannot be proven, so you are only making fun of yourself.
    3) Difficulties in theory, not necessarily dropping the foundation. Even if there are difficulties regarding religion. The evidentiary infrastructure for the existence of God (and again you make a salad between religion and God and your whims, it sounds like you are very offended by the religious issue), as well as the evidentiary infrastructure for the existence of Judaism (assuming, whatever your theory, that there is such a thing), is not omitted if certain details are difficult or Do not get along.
    4) The level of education in the religious population is *greater* than in the general population, and this is despite the *wasting* of time in all kinds of religious nonsense.
    5) People repent, I assume also for the reasons you mentioned. But it is convenient for you to mention only these reasons. You don't even bother to talk to the converts or listen to them. Many of them felt a sense of emptiness. The presentation of the things of Genesis as you present does not seem to them. Too casual. Your first insights seem to a lot of people (hmm.. probably some of them are not stupid), not trivial at all, and even, alas, incorrect.
    6) Beyond that, the 5 sections you mentioned are ridiculous, funny, or at least some of them. Indeed, this year with our joining the OECD, we feel an incredible improvement. Israel is changing direction. That's why the previous 5 sections are needed. Just ridiculous.
    7) I don't think you are anti-Semitic, but I certainly understand why they attached the nickname to you. You take extreme actions and opinions in the ultra-Orthodox camp, associate them with the general ultra-Orthodox camp, and use it as the line "Here you will see the ultra-Orthodox". And this is not demagoguery at all, of course.

  288. Michael Rothschild,

    OK suppose science is not axiomatic,
    My problem is with rationalistic people who wave science as a sure alternative to obscure and weighty questions about our origin in general, not just that of man, etc.
    If it was implied that I thought of you as such, then my apologies.

    Unfortunately the person you are looking for is the editor of this blessed site,
    I could accept his criticism if it was objectively focused and not an offensive and disparaging generalization of the worldview of an entire public.
    I say this when I am not a religious person nor do I believe in their method.

    Regarding my spelling error, thank you for the correction, what to do there are also like.. people with spelling errors.

    In your last comment you state that I accept irrationality.. that is not what I said or meant.
    I claim that rationality relies and is based on facts that are partly empirical and partly not (the work of research has not yet been completed, mathematical constants, etc..) and even when they are empirical they are subject to human limitations, and because of this rationality itself is in doubt. (I'm not a skeptical person by nature)

    Now if the rationale is always in doubt, tell me that the religious rationale is a fiction, or the mysticism of its kind is nonsense?
    With what tools can I cut here and there?
    You have to keep an open mind with modesty.

    As for the slanders, I do not see in the article a distinction between those who are really a burden on society and all other religious people whose religious worldview is different from that of the slanderers.

    Good night, Erez

  289. And my father, don't give up, especially not at times like these. Just yesterday the chairman of the coalition that makes up the State of Israel said: "I apologize to God for the sin we committed before Him by freezing construction."
    His political narrative is irrelevant, what is important is his request for forgiveness from the Creator of the world for the government's policy. Regarding the sovereign, which is the Israeli public, it is accountable to the Holy One, blessed be He.
    Today we learned that Interior Minister Eli Yishai canceled the "Mimshel Zemin" services on Shabbats in order to convey the message of "the importance of the Shabbat and the holy days to the Israeli public."

    The attacks on Israeli secularism are increasing. A few years ago this was not the case.
    I would not be moved by the show of the *robbed Cossack* of some of the commenters who came out in an irrelevant way against your words.

  290. Michal Rothschild for response 91
    I'm sorry, but when you preach for the purpose of erasing ultra-Orthodox or religious people, and to me, also the ultra-Orthodox/religious people from the country. You're not just delusional and childish. You just become exactly like those you hate.
    The attempt to erase the other is a boomerang. This is a hopeless approach that will only bring destruction.
    Read a little history and you will understand that there have always been such and that they have always disappeared.
    All this doing and talking under the guise of science is worthless and a waste of time.
    You should think again about your approach.
    Judaism and keeping the Torah have been preserved for thousands of years.
    So you come today and think you can change this situation.
    If you really believe that you have a self-hatred problem.
    Because you were born a Jew and these days a few days before Yom Kippur are time
    Think different thoughts a little for every secular and religious Jew.
    If this is nonsense to you please.
    Time is longer than all thoughts and hatreds.
    time will tell.

  291. I was greatly amused among the religious (religious, non-Orthodox) readers of the site!
    Let's clarify a few points:
    **Most of my criticism is directed at the ultra-orthodox public in particular and in general at any religious movement that has abandoned modernity.
    Not all ultra-Orthodox are like that, but most of them are. Not all religious-nationalists are like that, a small minority are. **
    **There are ultra-Orthodox people who work in science, but their number is negligible**, so there is no point in you telling us your acquaintances who work in science. Since you are readers of the site, it is likely that you come from that narrow faction of ultra-orthodox Judaism that has found a balance between the religious and secular worlds, so it is not surprising that you can point to anecdotal cases that contradict my father's words. You forgot one thing dear:
    **These are exceptional cases and you are aware of it!**

    A quick look at Marker will reveal that the absolute majority of those involved in high-tech are secular. A quick tour of the campuses will reveal that most of the faculty and students are secular. So yes, you know the name of a high-tech company founded by ultra-Orthodox, you have heard of Professor Oman from Givat-Ram. Well done. They represent a private case. Single. negligible Ineffectual. and certainly does not represent the general trend in these populations.
    (Oman is a national religious DA, he is not ultra-Orthodox, so he is out of your equation).

    The CBS data, the productivity of the Israeli workforce, data on the percentage of ultra-Orthodox participation in the workforce, the ultra-Orthodox opposition to the integration of core studies, and much more - all of these reflect my father's words.
    Why don't you refer to the CBS data? What about economic data?
    is nothing. You are just repeating yourself - we were hurt by you, father. I know an ultra-Orthodox who is involved in science. Father Israel, thanks to the prayers of the ultra-Orthodox, Father.

    It's hard to take you seriously, simply because you play the game of a melodramatic prima donna who doesn't take our words seriously.

  292. And another thing, people who ignore (or don't think about) the paradoxes that religion entails - they are indeed stupid

  293. My father - well done
    I'm glad to see that there are still people with honesty and courage to say things as they are.
    Indeed, this is about the moral and intellectual weakening of the country's population.
    The percentage of the sane population is decreasing and religious symbols are increasing.
    If there was no danger in the growing political power of these dark and senseless people, I would not care beyond pity if they believed this nonsense

  294. Tolerance is two-sided. You actually demand tolerance from the secular side, but for the ultra-Orthodox side, you allow the secularists to be harassed every day about something new (and really drunk Minister Yishai fell for a new proposal - to close the website of the Ministry of Interior on Shabbat so that people will not be able to renew their passports during their free time). As long as the situation is one-sided and the tolerance of the secular is abused, it is forbidden to be tolerant.
    When they live their lives, work and support themselves, and serve like me in the army, there will be something to talk about tolerance. You can't blackmail me, demand that I behave differently, determine what to eat and when to travel, and then say that I have to submit to all these in the name of tolerance.

  295. It's no wonder how those who try to define themselves as pluralists, tolerant and educated, themselves behave in a dark and cowardly way.
    The thought that someone who repents is necessarily a fool who lives a boring life, is itself not very intelligent.
    The attempt to generalize an entire public with extreme examples is not new for the left. This is a trend that characterizes the communist Ben-Gurion who knew how to decide what is good and what is bad for the people (although he also has many rights, which is not so sure his successors already have..).
    In short, from a site that presents itself as scientific, I would expect a little more decency and serious analysis ability. But maybe it's not surprising. Jews who have forgotten their heritage, no wonder they show ignorance and cowardice in it.
    It's okay, you're just a passing episode. In a few years they will not understand how there were such Jews in our nation. Who does not.

  296. Erez Dan:
    You are bursting into an open door and I commented that you are not aware of this fact.
    You wrote that you do not accept the scientific axioms when in science there are no axioms at all.
    The scientific theories are the best expression of our understanding of the world and no one (but absolutely no one!) sees them as axioms.
    The addition "with a limited guarantee" is so accepted in the world of science that there is no need to mention it at all - and this - in complete contrast to the world of religion where the guarantee is unlimited and it is also not paid off when the ideas go bankrupt.

    I have never encountered a person who in the name of science and rationality activated the thought police (unless you call the expression of an opinion different from yours the thought police). Have you come across such a person?

    No one defames anyone and this is because there is no such word in Hebrew.

    On the other hand - describing someone's real actions is not defamation.
    Defamation is when someone is attributed negative qualities or actions that are not the ones that characterize him in reality.

    I don't know where you get the ability to examine the kidneys and hearts of those who complain about the evasion of the ultra-Orthodox and the audacity to accuse them that when they complain about the evasion they do so because of the difference in worldview. If there is anything in the current discussion that comes close to the thought police, it is precisely expressions of this kind.

    It is also not clear to me why you describe the adherence to rationality and the unwillingness to accept irrational opinions as blindness. To me it seems exactly the opposite. The willingness to accept irrational opinions - is actually blindness - and even blindness by choice!

    In response 115 he wrote." So basically - you don't have to force your way on others, and others can't force their way on you. "
    In doing so, I accused my father of secular coercion.
    I responded to that.
    There is no secular compulsion. point.
    The concept of "imposing my secularism on religious people" is an illogical concept.
    If you are secular then you are secular and this fact, as is the way of facts, is imposed by itself on the whole world - including on the Haredim who are ultra-Orthodox.
    The only way you have not to impose your secularism is not to be secular (and then you will impose your non-secularism on the whole world).
    The point is that in a democratic society - a person is allowed to choose his private belief, and no one is allowed to prevent it from him.
    In other words - it is completely legitimate to impose your secularism on others - just as you are allowed to impose your life on them.
    When does illegitimate coercion begin? When person A demands from person B to act according to the belief of person A and contrary to the belief of person B.
    By the way, I think you have every right to wear a tank top in Mea Shearim and it is not coercion.
    I think you will not do this, partly because you are afraid - and rightly so - of the coercion they will exert on you - which could easily turn into violence.

  297. Thank you, colleague. I can draw your attention to another difference. While with them there is no open discussion and there is simply unanimity, here they were allowed to express themselves as they pleased even if they crossed personal lines.

    And on this occasion, Lali - you claim that it is necessary to compromise with the Chabad people who invaded the neighborhood. Why is this similar to a burglar who enters my home and demands all my money, after I show resistance he suggests that his friend come and offer a compromise. The friend comes and tells me, come on, give him half the money, we made a compromise. What is a compromise with Chabad, given to them every second child in the neighborhood? And he compared me to Abu Mazen and Lieberman in my stubbornness. What exactly must be compromised?

  298. I am a person who is motivated a lot by emotion, but logic also occupies a large part of my life. I simply believe in ideas that are scientific, but I have a lot of respect for those who think differently than me, and even if I don't support their opinion I won't "go out of my mind", because I think we are equal. To say that something makes no sense to me, does not mean that I think I am above that person and that what he believes in is worthless, because it is of great value to him and to many others. For me, my opinions and my worldview are valuable, therefore whoever tells me that it is worthless and tries to impose his view on me out of a sense of superiority, will hurt me or anger me and make me react in the appropriate way.
    As I said, I believe there is no God. I am not worth more than those who believe there is, and we can argue until tomorrow, it will not say that something is true and something is not. I simply find it difficult to believe in facts that go against my faith (or lack of faith), that is, my worldview, and so does the religious person, who cannot grasp an idea that goes against his faith/worldview.

  299. Spring. What a worthy and beautiful article - it should be studied in every secular, religious school and in all religious, ultra-Orthodox, official and non-Orthodox educational institutions. in all of them. How surprising that those who do not support this article also claim lies like those who claim that "the ultra-orthodox work" like the sun rises at night. Friends a lie repeated over and over does not become the truth at most it will convince more and more fools. 65% of ultra-Orthodox men do not work - unprecedented in the whole world...!!!!
    But lies, fraud and deceit are routine in the world of religion and the religious.
    When I was at the repentance seminar I was quite surprised and impressed and thought that there might be something with these doss. So I checked. I will give just a tiny example:
    There was a lecture by the righteous Greilk. The liar told and juggled the wonders of writing and the truth in it. Claims are also made about the script in the book of Remai Achr-Haim Berg on Kabbalah. just what? Our script today is not Hebrew at all..!!! It is originally Aramaic and we took it, we copied it from them....the original Hebrew script was forgotten. And who were the Arameans? For those who remember this book - the Bible and what is written in it - the Arameans were our sworn enemies (Aram lived in the region of today's Syria. What does this resemble? Let's start writing in Arabic script and in another 1000 years some crazy rabbi will come and tell about the "sanctity" of the script and its wonders. crooks

  300. I did not say that by opposing religious coercion I am imposing my secularism on others. I said that it would be a secular compulsion to walk with a tank top in the middle of Mea Shearim, and I certainly won't do it. Or start lecturing about evolution in the middle of a synagogue. It's about respect for the human being in front of you, not just a worldview.

    When I learned about BHA rights and started buying products that were not tested on BHA, I didn't force it on my family members, but over time, after asking themselves what was right for them - they switched to the products I bought. I don't intend to force and I don't want to be forced.

  301. Michael Rothschild,

    Reasonable words, but I'll disagree with you anyway.

    Indeed the mathematics is abstract, theoretical and in its view stands (as long as the axioms are valid) I don't disagree with that either.

    The problem is the physics observed with the help of measuring instruments limited to the limitations of man both physically and mentally.

    But of course you don't have to stop at the boundaries, you have to break through the boundaries with the help of imagination, physical mathematical theories, philosophy, free thought, etc.

    But here is the important point, one should modestly speak of "scientific truths" - Ltd. (with a limited guarantee) and avoid blind faith in the creation stories of religious people or scientists, but on the other hand, not rule out any concept just because it is not "logical" no Rationally, because what doesn't make sense today can make a lot of sense tomorrow.

    Without connection and with connection..
    People who seek to discredit the religious at every opportunity do not really do so because some are evasive, etc.. These are mainly because their faith is neither "logical" nor rational. That's what drives them crazy.
    I could understand the doctrine of the doubters, but they do not bring a new line, their faith is blind just as the faith of the religious is blind.


  302. Michal:
    You may not have noticed - but there is no secular compulsion. There is only religious coercion.
    The fact that someone cries out that religious coercion is being used against him does not yet turn his words into secular coercion.

  303. peregrine falcon:
    It's good that you are against the ultra-Orthodox who don't work.
    It's just a shame that you're trying to mislead us abouttheir number

    And in relation to dodging military jobs See here

  304. By the way, digital peregrine falcon - humanities studies are of no importance and value?! Swollen?! And you say that as a PhD holder?!

    If broad education has become worthless in people's eyes, and all that matters is exact science and technology - we have reached a dead end. All areas are important and related to each other. After all, this is what we are talking about - they say about the seculars that their cart is empty, but it is not!!! They just say she's worthless, and until it stops, we have a lot more work to do.

  305. Erez Dan:
    The mathematics that is the basis of science is not part of science.
    Science makes use of it - but it does not distinguish science and there is no person who does not accept it.
    Even the religious accept the axioms of mathematics - does this mean that mathematics is part of religion?

  306. Father, I find it hard to believe you. I'm not a regular reader of the site, but I read your book about the Columbia ferry, and I just had a hard time believing it was the same person. The article was total and irrelevant, and is just as fanatical as the other fanatical side of the scale.

    It doesn't matter who is being referred to - secular, ultra-Orthodox, religious, religious-nationalist, DTLS, traditionalist, a person who celebrates holidays and that's it, a person who believes in God and maintains a secular lifestyle (and the canvas is even wider) - everyone lives their life in their own way. You generalize in a crazy way, and determine numbers according to your personal opinion (not those of the CBS, but what you wrote in one of the comments - that there are only 5000 to 1000 people who are not according to the stigma, etc.). Have you gone to everyone's home in the country, and seen and checked with him how he maintains his lifestyle and why?
    As a secular person, I advocate the fact that we are all human, and we are all allowed to live our lives as we wish. No one has superiority over another. Another important thing about being human is the right we have to live in such a way that no other way of life will be forced upon us, and on the other hand - the duty to reflect and ponder and ask questions constantly about the way we live our lives. That is - to live consciously and not expect others to always be aware of themselves, because they have to do it themselves.
    So basically - you don't have to force your way on others, and others can't force their way on you. I will not walk in the middle of Mea Shearim with a tank top because it is a provocation, but I also would not want to be forced not to use public transportation on Shabbat or start a family in one and the same way.
    One can even say that in a certain sense a public of people who do not work and do not enlist, and leave me the "black work", imposes itself on me and leaves me no choice but to present a counter-opinion to it.

    Today, it can be said that the secular wagon (Zionist may not be relevant to this discussion) is full and even brimming with good things, but we do not know how to use it, and we lose ourselves in knowing. Everything has become cheap and reeks of short-termism and thoughtlessness. Secular thought needs to reflect this wagon in the most comprehensive way.

    I don't believe in God. I constantly ask myself why I am and what my role is and how I was created and other similar questions, not because I have an identity crisis, but because I simply don't know. If there is a point from which I do not know something - I will continue to ask myself the same questions throughout my life, and at the same time I will explore them from all directions, including the religious one. I probably won't accept the religious idea, because it usually makes no sense to me.

  307. You have read and seen. What is a scientific website? How are people classified? They used to call them differently. And today they are "mumbling, not productive". So I'm proud that someone like you, my father, doesn't like the ultra-Orthodox and the religious. Don't think he only hates black wearers. You should know that the soldiers who drink for morning prayer bother him more, because you can't call them the blacks. Please, father, get out of the country, you are only disturbing with your hatred and scientific ignorance. And let you all know. Thaler's Germany arose out of a super modern society that encourages science and education. This is a historical fact. Anyone offended. Don't be offended, be proud. They always hated us. Both Ahmadinejad and Avi Blizovsky. Both the teller and the European Union.

  308. Section 1 of the steps you listed was worded in a shocking way.
    To stop the deterioration of the secular education system and its transformation into a religious one by eliminating evolution, and simply lowering the level.

    It can be learned from him that you recommend that we stop the deterioration of the secular education system, by turning it into a religious one. Why not just say:
    To prevent the secular education system from becoming religious, by lowering evolution, or simply damaging its level

    More accurate, shorter and more effective.

  309. The majority of the religious and a significant percentage of the ultra-orthodox (and especially those who have converted) work!
    Humanities studies are unfortunately subsidized by the state...check it out if you don't believe it.
    The benefit is zero because there is hardly any work in the field for those who decided to invest their time in vain
    in worthless studies.

    The only reason we came to Israel as a Jewish people is the Jewish way of life and belief in the Creator of the world.

    I am of course against those of the ultra-orthodox who do not work... it is against Jewish law! But as the state
    Funds the livelihood of all the professors and partially of all the teaching supporters in the aforementioned faculties in the universities
    The difference... support that the return of the financial profit to the state is zero (not to mention the state's throwing money at the Kamri Theater and others) so I expect the state to support the ultra-Orthodox. And I believe they help
    There is much more to the people of Israel than history studies that cost the country a lot of money!

    By the way, I'm religious (I've always been religious) with a PhD and I live up to what I said with my children as well. I always resisted
    to finance and I will always oppose to finance courses in Roman sciences (inflated) for them.

    Digital peregrine falcon

  310. God (Spinozi) is mighty, as history repeats itself, in a moment a new Jesus will also arise. Maybe he's already up?

  311. Blizovsky, you are dealing with the material, so with you 2 plus 2 is 4 and no more.
    Our job is to create synergy, which means that 2 plus 2 is not 4 but much more than that. Ask a believing Jew and he will explain to you.

  312. And by the way, peregrine falcon, the murmurers are not doing anything that helps the people of Israel.
    For me personally - everything they do is disturbing.

  313. Michael Rothschild,

    I am always open to learning..
    Please enlighten me, isn't the mathematics at the base of science axiomatic?

  314. peregrine falcon:
    Secular people - whether they are philosophers, painters, mathematicians or gardeners - work for a living.
    If there is no requirement for the profession they studied (and you imply that) - they work in another profession.
    In addition, the period of their studies is limited and the state does not finance them in any way.
    If they work as waiters - there is no problem with that - you may not recognize that the job respects its owner, but I respect everyone who works for a living.

  315. My father - hold on!
    In principle, I agree with you, although indeed, as someone already pointed out, you grossly exaggerated a bit. However, it should be noted that indeed the problem is ours and not "theirs" (I am secular). It is true that we are one people, but not everyone performs the tasks. I'm in favor of separating religion from politics and then make the necessary changes. There is an option to keep some rabbis in various committees related to religion in the Knesset and others. No more religious parties that only care about gnawing in the pocket of a working individual in the State of Israel. No more!!! I think that it is possible to finance exceptional ones, those whose scores exceed 97 for example and that's it.

  316. The "mutterers" are at least doing something that helps the people of Israel
    What exactly do university graduates from humanities faculties do and ask for example?
    "Scientific" women
    Political science
    literature etc
    The only question most of them ask is "Sir, do you want it with fries or salad"?

  317. Benjamin:
    Come and explain to us - you liar - exactly how my father lived at your expense.

    Erez Dan:
    If you knew what science is, you would know that there are no axioms in it

  318. Really amazing 2+2 = 4
    I said that empirical facts are easy..

    And what about the big bang? Doesn't it take a great deal of faith to accept the idea that the entire universe was compressed into less than the size of one Plank? And that's even before I talk about the divine particle and the collection of astronomical constants that are inserted into the formulas so that they don't collapse - isn't the use of constants a kind of non-empirical blind faith?

    Yes, unfortunately, I define secularism as a religion for everything when their beit midrash is the academic institution, the rabbis are the lecturers and zealots for science, and God is mathematics and rationalism.

    As I said, studying philosophy can free people from thinking patterns in any religion (even in the religion of secularism)


  319. Blizovsky, the religious in general serve in the army and also pay more taxes than you.
    The number of scumbags whose teachings are their art is much smaller than the number of small parasites (of which you are) who live at my expense.

  320. dear father,

    Your attempt to raise science to the level of a religion runs through almost every article as the second thread, there is no point in defaming an existing religion and instead promoting a new religion (in this way you are quite a missionary with the power you have as the owner of this site).

    I absolutely do not accept the axioms of the religious Torah just as I do not accept the axioms of the world of science. And I'm not talking about empirical facts, it's too easy.. For me, the belief in the big bang theory is just as delusional that there is some "god" who is responsible for everything.

    "The rabbi of the hidden is revealed", and all we can do is continue to try to discover the origin of things, and humbly acknowledge the fact that we observe what is happening through our physical limitations, but on a spiritual level and with the help of imagination we will continue to search and not be locked into this or that theory or perception.
    Remember that what seems to you today is not "logical" tomorrow will be everyone's property.

    It's a shame that there are people who, in the name of science and rationalism, try to operate thought police, and it's a shame that they don't study enough philosophy so that those people can easily shake off (religious or rational) patterns of thinking

    Now the comment comes out,
    I was an avid reader of the site until two years ago or so, and what kept me away from the site was all those articles where you put your opinions about what is right and wrong to think about the world, it turned me off.

    I really hope you will grow up in this matter and try to be more objective (as much as possible of course, everything is relative)

    Thanks, Erez

  321. Blizovsky, you and your friends are in a panic because the religious are taking away the country that supposedly belongs to you.

    For my part, you can explode with sadness and anger.

    I understand your frustration, but can't help you.

  322. The only choice left - tying secularism to nationalism as before. Unfortunately, although it has always existed at the bottom, it is not like that at the top in politics.

  323. to my dear father The style is negative and offensive and as such is inappropriate. Note how many of the commenters here are both religious and your readers (contrary to the claim of your article) and were hurt by the attack on them. I also find the conclusions to be incorrect. Indeed, we are in a period of strengthening religion. This is a natural process. An absolute majority of the world's population believes in some creator.

    There is no connection and contradiction between faith and science. There are excellent religious scientists. I agree with you that there is a problem with the fact that the ultra-orthodox do not exist today in a significant way in the job market and higher education. But bringing them in there means holding them in more positions of power than today, something that, according to the unsympathetic tone of your article, will be in your eyes sarcastic.

    I am in favor of your proposals to abolish the hametz law and to have public transportation on Shabbat because respect for Judaism should come from within and not by coercion. Likewise, the abolition of religious laws will lead to a great strengthening of religion. You must understand that the main reason that religion is not even stronger in our country is the natural tendency of people to reject the religious establishment as it is embodied in religious laws, chief rabbinate, etc., since it is seen as coercive. The more religion is separated from the state, the less reluctance to religion will decrease and the citizens of the state will become more religious.

    As a secularist, I think that overall this is a positive phenomenon. What is more, I would prefer that most of the new religious people belong to the stream of knitted kippahs, which I like very much.

    In any case, you must understand that you have no control over this trend and the right thing is to treat all people with courtesy and respect as appropriate in a democratic country and a reformed society. That way everyone can live their life as they see fit and it will be better for all of us.

  324. Hello, is this a scientific site or a hate and incitement site?
    It turns out that this is a site that reinvented the science of hatred and incitement...

  325. Eli (86):
    I'm turning to you as an example - there are other people who have expressed opinions similar to yours and things are addressed to them as well.

    The State of Israel - which was established by secularists to be a refuge for the Jewish people from anti-Semitic persecutions (and not for the Jewish religion from philosophical debates) is gradually being hijacked by anti-democratic religious organizations.

    This creates a situation where a growing part of the population is exempt from all obligations (whether security or economic) and makes the lives of a growing part of honest people intolerable.

    We are following a path that if we continue for some time - the country will be destroyed - literally.

    Therefore - raising a cry against the phenomenon - is not hostility for its own sake, but the last step that can be taken to prevent civil war or destruction.
    Of course, a more practical way is through the ballot box, but this kind of way has no chance in a situation where many people (like you) do not perceive the magnitude of the danger at all and this kind of cry is the only way to wake them up.

  326. To all those who talk about "secular values" or "secular culture" - and especially to those who lament their absence:
    I think you are a little confused.
    There is no definite thing that can be called secular culture or secular values ​​because the secular are not a defined or unified group that shares one culture.
    A secular is someone who is not religious - but the difference between the secular and themselves is often greater than the differences between some of them and the ultra-Orthodox.
    What is supposed to be the culture of someone who everything we know about is not religious?
    is he a scientist
    Is he a charlatan of alternative "medicine"?
    Is he a philosopher?
    Is he a whore?
    Is he a high-tech person?
    Is he a drug dealer?
    This group has no common denominator and that goes without saying.
    Asking about the culture of the "typical secular" is like asking about the typical national affiliation of someone who is not French.

    So it's true:
    Many groups in the secular population have no values.
    Sometimes it is better than the negative "values" of certain religious groups - and sometimes it is less good.
    What is the culture of someone who is not a thief?
    I don't know but at least he doesn't steal.

    The point is that in secularism there are cultural currents that surpass all religious currents in every sense.
    I guess we all agree that the values ​​of truth and justice are positive values.
    If someone wants to adhere to these values ​​- it is difficult for him to do so and continue to believe in a religion whose values ​​often contradict its claims and commandments.
    After all, a person cannot adhere to the truth - on the one hand - and the stories of creation and the flood on the other.
    A person also cannot adhere to humanitarian values ​​on the one hand - and in such values On the other hand.
    He also cannot decide to base his decisions on all the relevant information - on the one hand And to accept Rabbi Kirschenbaum's teaching that it is better to be a cat On the other hand

    Although there are some people who manage to live with this contradiction, but - not only are there not many - but for most of them - the results of the contradiction also occasionally break out (according to the chief "scientist" of the Ministry of Education).

    Therefore - even if secularism does not guarantee a life according to positive values ​​- it at least enables them.
    Indeed - it also allows life according to values ​​that are even more perverted than the values ​​of religion - but if the education system educates for positive values ​​and the judicial system punishes for negative values ​​- we will all be in a much better situation than the situation of a halachic state to which we strive - in the end - openly or not In the statement - all religious currents.

  327. Now the interesting question is how soon the State of Israel will collapse as a result of the process of returning to parasitism described in the article.

  328. Do not worry…
    When there are millions of hungry ultra-Orthodox, there will be no money to feed them and they will forget God, shave and look for work!

  329. Let's assume that there is no point in the existence of the website if the website owner is not ready to bow to Rebbe Malovitz Zatzukal. What will you do about it?

    And besides that, haven't you heard of the saying that surrendering to violence only brings more violence? Surrendering to the violence of the Chabad people in Ramat Aviv will only bring us trouble and not solve anything.

  330. To my father Blizovsky
    You don't have to love them but you don't want to stop hating them
    You have no interest in listening to them at all or communicating
    When the motive for all the articles here is enmity and hostility for her name
    There is absolutely no point in the existence of this site
    The participants here are wasting their time

  331. An interesting response from a writer named Ziggy Brotter. A quote from Rambam about those who don't want to work and only study Torah all day

    "Anyone who puts it on his heart that he should engage in the Torah and not do any work, and earn a living from charity, after all, this has profaned the name and dishonored the Torah and extinguished the light of religion and caused harm to himself and taken his life from the next world, according to which it is forbidden to enjoy the words of the Torah in this world. The sages said: Anyone who benefits from the words of the Torah has taken his life from the world. And they further commanded and said: You shall not use a crown to grow in them, nor a cordum to dig in them. And they commanded and said: Love the craft, and hate the rabbinate. And every Torah that does not have a work with it, ends in a fall, and the end of this person, who will be a curse to mankind." - Halachot Talmud Torah, chapter XNUMX, Halachah XNUMX

    There you see, someone bent down and picked up some good stuff from the bottom of the empty cart.

  332. Lali
    You really want me to love those who come to me, tower over me, want to educate my children in the way of their ignorance. So I have news for you, I'm not a Christian either and I have no commandment to turn the other cheek. They thought they had come to a neighborhood full of Phoenicians who would bow their heads and let them do as they pleased. So they were wrong, at least two thousand people in the neighborhood think otherwise.

  333. To sparrow
    Zionism chose Israel because there was an infrastructure. The first aliyah and the colonies were built before the Zionist congresses and Naftali Hertz Imber wrote the hope (many houses) while staying in the new colonies long before the song became the anthem of the Zionist movement. It seems to have been an assertion of fact that was hard to deny. It is a fact that the kibbutzim that were the spearhead of Zionism were the stronghold of secularism and even atheism.
    There were other theoretical (Uganda) and practical attempts in Argentina for example. It's a fact that they didn't attract crowds because there was still a cultural basis for the conquests of the Land of Israel. There was also a weak regime here that made settlement possible (unlike, for example, the British mandate that gave it legs).

  334. How to close the taps:

    How do the ultra-Orthodox manage to increase their power? The taxpayer funds them. They are getting stronger and need more and more funding. The taxpayer continues to keep them with increasing funding. This is a positive feedback that brings the economy closer to a slippery slope, and a way must be found to stop the process.

    Currently the Israeli government finances the religious institutions. The reason for this is the specialization of these institutions in being "the language of scales". The fertile ground on which this cunning skill grew is the current system of government. I gave my opinion on the matter in response to another article here. Enter, enter and give feedback, because if you don't do so I will drag and paste it here and waste valuable disk space on the site at the expense of important content:
    (Response No. 2 there) 

  335. There is nothing to talk about, they also tried and it didn't help, because they came there with one goal - to take our children. There is no compromise on this. I'm not from Inik. We have seen where the country has reached thanks to Mapai's compromises
    And what a compromise, we will only give them the southern part of the neighborhood, or the northern part, or maybe the new Ramat Aviv? Anything given to them would be access to children they shouldn't have.

    and N.B. They are not Jews either.

    And another N.B. Really a waste of the investment. If I were the CEO of Starkist I would think twice about whether it is worth donating to intruders who will only give him a bad name.

  336. Avi Blizovsky
    The simple question is you and your neighbors are interested in continuing hostile relations for another 10 years, another 30 years, another 100.
    We are a particularly stubborn people when it comes to Judaism.
    If you are not able to actually speak the words yourself or one of your friends, do it by
    A person who is ready to bridge the gap between you.
    Otherwise you will find yourself a man to carry. No shame for the effort and investment that went down the drain.

  337. I have already answered the secular one. Those who work but believe in amulets, Buddha, Shinto, the Google religion, in their free time without it bothering them, to be healthy, the problem is with those who have found the Kardom religion to dig into. These are mainly the ultra-Orthodox. It is only true that the basis of faith is shaky, every faith - and therefore it must be attacked. The problem with the ultra-Orthodox is that they impose their shallowness on us. As long as there are religious people who are willing to live in peace with non-believers and participate in the labor market, and the army, please.
    By the way, the problem is starting to become oppressive in the US as well. There you will be respected if you are religious who believes in anything that is not just a secular humanist - for everyone it is a curse and easy prey and these people are discriminated against everywhere.

  338. Abby, I saw that you responded in response 35 to my points, thank you.

    In any case, we may have gas, but no one knew about it during the first, second or third Aliya period...

    The question remains, why did the secular "religious rebels" decide to return here.

    You claim "knowledge" that denies the existence of a spiritual reality that you can no more measure than the amount of trapezoids on the planet G458 (which has not yet been discovered by the Kepler space telescope). It sounds equally strange to me that someone tells me that they have knowledge that proves the reality of aliens
    Or he has supernatural power.

    People within Judaism who come into contact with the ideas, actions, and the text on a daily basis can tell you about great mental changes they go through and all kinds of new thoughts and new and positive desires that arise in them. This is the closest thing to "proof" that exists and there is no doubt that it is completely subjective.  

    I am shocked by what you say about Chabad in your area. It is sad and infuriating and does not add much respect to the religious population. For example, I live in a settlement that was established as a mixed settlement right on principle. And live here of all kinds more or less in peace...

  339. Avi -
    You have a justified anger at some of the people who receive money and do not work.
    Regarding religion, what characterizes this part of the people, why they do what they do...not interesting. And most importantly, doesn't help.
    If you want to solve this problem of part of the people living at the expense of others.
    Giving criticism...and spreading the *** to others...doesn't really help.
    Doing something contrary will help...
    You will propose an article "A solution to a country possessed by demons" in which people in the comments will offer practical solutions to the problem of the part of the people who want money.
    It is better not to attack ultra-Orthodox, religious...beliefs...because everyone has their own faith that gives them something. Faith should not change us. Attack, brings attack... see all the responses you received. Spreading anger, exploding anger in responses... and I see a lot of counter-reactions here.
    The money that this people's share takes, is supposed to change us. And that is the focus here, the balance between the people.

  340. To an ultra-Orthodox from the Jerusalem area, sorry for the delay, for some reason your comment disappeared into the junk comments area and even though you don't respect me, I will respect you and release it. However, have you read all 12,500 articles on the site? After all this, does nature really require some kind of creator, do I really lack data to reach this conclusion?

    The secular wagon that contains all world culture, and science, is much more full of an old and faltering wagon that fights against modernity tooth and nail. I have no contact with those for whom education is a derogatory word. I mean, for you it's a cart, for us it's a heavy cargo plane full of books.

  341. To my father, I was talking about the fact that you put the religious and the ultra-orthodox in the same group. I will leave the claims about the ultra-orthodox, but you also wrote that the religious are unproductive. What is the connection between the ultra-orthodox and religious yeshiva?

  342. To Elli, they are smiling a lot and talking about talking, until they realize that there is a stubborn person standing in front of them who is not ready to be addressed by their children, and they turn to physical violence, and when that doesn't work, then financially (and I know what I'm talking about personally about both things). With such kind of people there is nothing to talk about, just put them in a closed institution and throw the lock into the sea. And if you want to know, people in my name contacted the officials in Kfar Chabad who are supposedly moderate, and they laughed at them and did not help in the slightest.

    And I also want to know who the hell they bribed in the municipality to receive kindergarten training at Beit Kazanchei, and how is it that no one in the municipality noticed that all the public buildings in the neighborhood were horrified to stop the process when they had the chance.

    But regardless, you can ask people who have known me for 20 years, these have been my opinions since the age of 20, even before I even lived in Ramat Aviv, and I'm approaching 50.

  343. To Avami - we made a deal. If you find any Haredi who can dismantle the Chabad settlement in Ramat Aviv, the one in which tens of millions of shekels have already been invested (from whose money?), I promise for a whole year not to write a single word against the Haredim on the site. Not even a legitimate criticism like I've done so far.

  344. Avi Blizovsky
    I assume you are on the issue of the ultra-Orthodox following the ongoing conflict with the invading Chabadniks
    to the neighborhood where you live and maintain a missionary presence there.
    This thing has been going on for 10 years.
    Maybe there is a situation for change by creating mutual trust.
    Do you not believe at all in any dialogue with the ultra-Orthodox/religious creating a common basis for communication???

  345. For "secular", not hatred of people's faith, just sorrow and pain that we all suffer from their faith, instead of keeping it to themselves, they limit themselves and us, and cause public funds to be wasted on unproductive yeshiva and service in a yeshiva instead of in the army (not to mention The indoctrination they receive in these yeshivas - by the starving mother, etc.). Any criticism is interpreted by them as hatred. And I've already written - I'm pro-Israeli, so I have to make sure that it's better for us to live here, and not run away and leave the country to Arabs and ultra-Orthodox.

  346. If you don't mind, continue the response under the article "A country haunted by demons XNUMX". Leave the obscenities alone to the commenters on the subject of the article.

  347. Dan Argaman, 99% of ultra-Orthodox women are human child machines and all they do in life is give birth and give birth and give birth

  348. I guess a company like NDS founded in 1989 is new to you.

    As someone who deals with innovative discoveries, your definition is very expansive.

    And you bothered to ignore most of what I wrote to you about productivity.

    By the way, as an educated and enlightened person, you surely bother to ignore 50 percent of the ultra-orthodox population (women) who not only study core studies, but also beat your enlightened education system by a large margin.

    I will come back again and say that I hope that your forgiving attitude to gross, ignorant and superficial errors does not characterize the rest of the content on your site.

  349. The fact that you think that studying in a religious state school in elementary school (without continuing in a religious high school/high school and without continuing at all), made you completely ignorant of Judaism, shows a very high trust that you have in the education system.

    I assume that in your eyes every graduate of a state school (without high school) is knowledgeable in the fields of geography, history, mathematics and his level of English is sufficient. (By the way, to the best of my knowledge in religious state schools the number of hours devoted to each of these subjects is greater than the number of hours devoted to Jewish studies.

    Come learn something, if you were less ignorant of Judaism you would know yourself, (by the way, this is said in the treatise Derech Eretz which even preceded the Torah)
    "Teach your tongue to say: I do not know, lest you be deceived and hold on."

    The things you wrote are fake, you can still get away with clinging to them which does not add respect to you.

  350. Yossi, you don't have to have an affinity for religion. This is also about Jewish tradition, and there really doesn't have to be a connection between religion and tradition.

    And my father, it's nice to know the equation religious => unproductive.

    Bar Ilan University is simply full of unproductive people, right?

    Israel Oman must be one of the most unproductive people you know, right?

    And let's leave the fact that you don't differentiate between religious and ultra-Orthodox at all..
    It is not that every convert grows wigs, quits his job and goes to study in yeshiva.

    In your words there is hatred for the faith of pure people, and not a shred of truth.

  351. Avi Blizovsky-the editor:
    Maybe another way!!!
    We are still one nation, the ultra-Orthodox are neither aliens nor Palestinians
    Draw your attention to response 55
    Regarding Ramat Aviv and the Chabadniks

  352. Deti murmurs, I'm glad we have a common denominator. The data I refer to are all quoted in the form in which they were provided by the Central Bureau of Statistics. On that occasion, the idiot who wrote in Rotter's account should be warned not to rely on Helms' data but on personal investigation, that he is talking nonsense. The CBS data is a scientific tool for decision-making.
    In my opinion, it is detailed there exactly how many people at each level of religiosity, if you take the traditional-religious (Shas?) and the ultra-Orthodox, you will get a very large share of the Israeli public that sees modernity as a curse, and this is not only their problem, it becomes our problem, as it is expressed Among other things, in the examples I mentioned in the article. In my opinion they threaten you no less than me because they are the ones dragging the State of Israel. Unfortunately, even when there was an opportunity to sign a compromise agreement between Shinio and Mafdel in the Sharon government, Mafdel was the one who got cold feet and did not agree to some of the clauses because of the fear of the ultra-Orthodox. In the end it happened that we accepted the compromises of the secularists and that is why, for example, all the things that were canceled in that government were later reinstated because they were not established by law but in an arrangement, on the other hand, all the religious concessions were either not implemented in the first place or were quickly dissolved.

  353. You wrote that:
    "You are not noticed and your influence on the religious public is zero, therefore the general direction in which the country is moving does not change even if you number a hundred thousand (and I am not sure that there are more than 5,000-10,000 in the best case of you)"

    This means that I believe there are a little more than 10,000 people "from us", and I would multiply this number at least tenfold, as for the core of this public, and expand by a double number of "margins", who belong to the sector but tend towards other social niches. The majority of the religious public is educated, and certainly contributes to Israeli society in any respect.

    Where did our influence go?
    First, in education and academia - definitely influential. On the social issue, there are many social organizations that were founded by religious people, but do not necessarily adorn themselves with religious decorations because that is not their goal.
    As far as ultra-Orthodox society is concerned, we cannot influence extreme sectors that, just as they are not accessible to you, are also not accessible to us. It is not possible to influence sectors that "don't see you from a meter".

    And secondly, if we refer to "political" influence, I remember that we tried to influence. I remember dozens of such attempts. And I really have no desire to bring politics into this thread, but we spent quite a few days at the intersection near my parents' house handing out stickers and flyers in an attempt to influence. And they ran over us (there was one who called us "propellers", "extremist right", etc.).
    So we tried for several years of very intensive work.
    One prime minister ran over us, another prime minister came and made a killing confession.
    So it no longer has the same power to influence.
    We are in the rehabilitation department.

    And as for the matter of television, etc. - between us, this is not evidence. It's just that today, for the NAD, there is simply nothing to see...
    To see a movie a computer is enough, you don't have to pay a fee.

    But I do say one thing that I agree with you, at least in principle:
    She is very disturbed by the religious extremism (and the political as well, but we will not go into that because I am sure that in this matter we do not define extremism in the same way) in certain parts of the national religious community and the ultra-Orthodox community. There is an educational rift in the ultra-Orthodox public (and I am not an expert, and I am writing as I see it. I am sure that there are many good segments that are not in this crisis) a crisis that stems from an inability to adequately deal with the challenges of modernity: from organ transplants to the social complexity in the State of Israel).
    But I believe that even this break, as much as it is a break, is the end that will give rise to growth and development.

    And from here again to the topic you wrote about:
    Unfortunately, you chose to treat everything in the religious-Orthodox community as one piece. And attribute a kind of "research" credibility to your personal opinions with those raw statistics.
    To NAD this is a mistake.
    This is a public with a very broad socio-cultural-religious scope. From the CBS data concerning the number of converts, to deduce social data as you concluded - "You sailed in your words".

  354. A. All the writers are experts in their field.
    B. I know the high-tech field, I cover it for People and Computers and for a newspaper called Industries (from various aspects of it). This phenomenon of ultra-Orthodox employment in high-tech is new but receives public relations. It is extremely marginal and only the elite among them can reach it, because others simply lack the knowledge of English and mathematics and cannot complete it in their late twenties. If you want a mass of Haredim in high-tech, make sure they get the core program and don't celebrate a victory every time they are denied its activation.
    Read Dan Ben David, the numbers are still as I claim - that this is a massive majority that wants to go back on its own and bring us all back. I see the radicalization step by step in the last thirty years and my heart goes out to the young people who are each growing up in a more closed world than before.

  355. I have no problem if the fact that you are an apostate, that is mainly your problem.

    My problem is that you slander those who believe in religion and treat those who believe in religion in an anti-Semitic way.

    The fact that you are the son of a holocaust survivor neither improves nor lowers. Just as there are no shortage of holocaust survivors who are racist and think that Ethiopians are worth less because their skin color is black.

    In Israel, according to various estimates, there are more national religions than ultra-Orthodox, or unfortunately their number is equal.

    The religious nationalism is felt in all parts of the population, for those who take the trouble to get their heads out of the well of their prejudices and anti-Semitism.
    Suffice it to say that in the elite units of the IDF there has long been a majority of knit cap wearers, whose faith in God and His Torah does not fall short of all the ultra-Orthodox of Bnei Brak. Or alternatively, my parents' synagogue (which in its best days had 60 families) has three Israel Prize winners.

    The ultra-orthodox also contribute a lot to the state in all fields. First of all in the most important field of occupation, which is the Torah occupation without which Avi Blizovsky would not have lived in the State of Israel, and certainly not in the Land of Israel. But the ultra-Orthodox butterfly fans also contribute in the high-tech fields (there are many high-tech companies whose founders are ultra-Orthodox and most of their employees are ultra-Orthodox), in industry, in the civil service, and in many other fields.

    The fact that probably the only ultra-Orthodox you know are the ones about whom you read articles in the newspaper, and based on those articles you base your worldview, does not inspire much respect for your opinions and your worldview. This raises serious questions about your judgment and the professional level of other articles from the site. Is anyone who has read an article in the news about Stephen Hawking already qualified in your opinion to write a series of articles on the physics of black holes? worrying…

  356. And thanks to the commenters attacking the router who found an error in my account. It happens due to stress. As for left-wing shouting, those who shout it do not know, I define myself in the center of the political map and pro-Israeli.. The only reason for my "heresy" (to disbelieve in something that does not exist is a paradox) is the knowledge that there is nothing in these beliefs, and the same in the beliefs of Islam , Christianity (even more delusional religions than Judaism).

  357. To the editor
    Have you even tried to speak personally with the leaders of the Chabadniks in Ramat Aviv.
    In my opinion, you can create a basis for joint training, for example, if you suggest that your group
    Willing to hear a lesson in Talmud in exchange for a scientific lecture that they will attend.
    I emphasize a lesson in the Talmud rather than a lecture on morals and sermons.
    I don't think they will be able to refuse such an offer.
    Let's say there will be a series of 10 such exchange lectures that end with a discussion.
    You might be able to teach them a few things about what bothers you and maybe change a little
    the situation from the inside.
    I understand that after 10 years there are no commandments and everything is stuck in such a situation that it will continue until the Messiah comes or until there is a peace agreement with the Palestinians.
    So what do you think?

  358. Their effect is not zero, their size and mass are very small, even in relation to other particles.

    post Scriptum. I studied in a religious state school in elementary school, and I continued to keep the tradition to a large extent until I was about 20 years old. So to accuse me of being ignorant of religion is simply a false accusation. Precisely because I know, I know what emptiness is. Especially when I know science today and find a lot of errors, and that there is no basis for all the rituals and commandments, but only to control people.
    However, since the national religious work and in their schools learn English and mathematics I can only feel sorry for people who consciously cultivate ignorance, but as long as they contribute to society they will be healthy. If they start to panic, then the problem for Israeli society will be even more difficult.

  359. And by the way, your statements to my religious mumbler and other commenters, only prove that you have no familiarity with the subject at all.

    Imagine if someone sent you an article to publish on a website and the article said that all subatomic particles have a positive charge.

    When you would send him an angry email about his stupid mistake, he would tell you that neutrons and electrons have zero effect and therefore he treats all subatomic particles the same way.

    Now for the question: how long would it take you to create a filter in your mailbox that sends all the letters of that "genius" straight to the recycling bin, if not to final deletion?

  360. I think your answer, which accuses me of anti-Semitism, is a panic reaction.
    I am the son of a Holocaust survivor, I served in the army, and everywhere in Europe I visit, I go at the expense of my free time to sites related to the Holocaust (Bergen Belsen, Trasenstadt, the Jewish ghetto in Prague, the Warsaw Ghetto, the Anne Frank House). This makes me better than you, except that for you Zionism is probably also anti-Semitism because the original Zionists renounced the religion, so almost the entire population of the State of Israel is anti-Semitic.

  361. What is the connection between wanting a modern state, and the combination of nonsense you wrote in the article.
    Your equation in the article according to which conversion = orthodox = murmuring = unproductive is nothing less than anti-Semitic, apart from its shallowness and superficiality.

    A. Not every convert becomes ultra-orthodox, there are many who convert and become national religious
    B. The ultra-Orthodox as a group are much more productive than the journalists as a group. And that is whether or not you consider writing in a newspaper/internet/magazine to be production. The amount of Torah research produced by the religious and ultra-orthodox public far exceeds the scientific research produced in universities. And even if for some reason you don't think that Torah research is a field worth investing in, who is your name to state that historical or political science research is more considered than Torah research.
    third. The reference to biblical and religious texts as mumbling, teaches more than it teaches about the texts, it teaches about the referent.

    Apparently there is a difference between knowing that there are low-brow racist anti-Semites in the world, and the experience of meeting such a person.

    I wish you to get rid of the disease that makes you see the world in a distorted way (because anti-Semitism is nothing less than a disease) in the new year.

    happy New Year

  362. My father for the sake of good order - when you say: "religious" - who do you mean? Only for those who have a black hat on their head or also for those who have a knitted cap?
    In the USA these two types are collectively called Orthodox.

  363. To my religious muttering, I did not say that you do not exist, but that you are not felt and your influence on the religious public is zero, therefore the general direction in which the country is moving does not change even if you appoint a hundred thousand. Hindsight, and I still remember that there were religious people in the seventies - my relatives in Bnei Brak, who have since passed away, who had a television at home. And suddenly it's forbidden, now the Internet is banned and the war on core studies is to prevent them from moving to your side, that is, to the side that is also able to support itself so that they can become regiments Voting for the extreme ultra-Orthodox Ponlitakis in future generations as well.
    If your side was dominant there would be no problem at all.
    to a colleague I didn't say that evangelical Christianity and Islam are better, it's exactly the same lady in disguise. And I also mourn the fact that until Europe was freed from the Catholic Church - so much so that the priests complain that the churches are empty, Islam comes and threatens to take it back.

  364. I am religious, and also studying for a master's degree in molecular biology. My instructor is also religious, and so is the girl who is doing a degree with me at the same time. My wife is a lawyer.
    My (religious) father has a master's degree in the history of the people of Israel, worked most of his life as a moshavnik, and today he teaches courses for road teachers. Mom has a bachelor's degree in social sciences from Johns Hopkins University, and she teaches English to the learning disabled. My brother is an engineer in the field of solar energy, my one brother-in-law is a very religious person and is a specialist in pediatrics with a sub-specialty in hematology-oncology, my other brother-in-law is an engineer in a hi-tech company and he also observes three prayers a day and daily study, the new (and religious) brother-in-law is studying electrical engineering, Another cousin who is starting chemistry-physics studies at the Hebrew University, two more cousins ​​who are studying engineering in Tel Aviv (and they are also religious), a cousin who is a vice president at a high tech company (religious), another cousin with a doctorate in philosophy (and he teaches at colleges in the north, in addition to being on milking shifts in the kibbutz) his wife has a bachelor's degree in biology and she is a foreign marketing manager at one of the factories in the north. Another uncle has a doctorate in economics (businessman), my grandmother has a master's degree in economics, and she contributed quite a bit to the Israeli economy not before she contributed to the trade unions in the US, and my late grandfather has a doctorate in economics from Harvard (and he also contributed to the US economy and the Israeli economy). Another grandfather is an engineer who was a manager in an aircraft parts manufacturing company in the USA, before making aliyah at the age of 85.

    His (religious) nephew was awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics.

    Most of the members have a bachelor's degree and are on their way to a master's degree or a doctorate.
    And I'm not really a statistical outlier, in case you were wondering.

    I didn't bring all this up to brandish titles, but only to show that your claims are not only weak, but show a fundamental problem that you suffer from, and that you blame the religious for: a lack of complexity. There are some extreme sects in ultra-orthodox Judaism that oppose any progress. They have been around for quite some time, but they still represent a minority opinion.
    Take a night of statistical data, add to it your preconceived notions about religious people and converts - and voila - you got the Mea Shearim version of Iran.
    Please, in order to make the statistics of the population on religious matters relevant, add additional demographic sections to it: education level, income level, residential area, spending profile, etc.
    But as mentioned, you didn't do that.

    (By the way, the converts I know are definitely thoughtful, thorough and knowledgeable people).

  365. Avi ,
    I completely agree with your words and more than that also with your opposition to the distortion of science by creationists and climate deniers of all kinds.

    But it is also important to remember that the way of life we ​​worship has quite a few shortcomings. And the solution to this is a greater investment by the state in education, culture and welfare. Otherwise we are playing right into the hands of the religious extremists, not only in Judaism but also in Islam and the evangelical Christianity that has been flourishing recently along with extreme Islam and radicalization in Israel .

  366. Father, there is no question of moderates or extremists here. I repeat and claim that the differences within the Orthodox are substantial and not semantic. This is how most Orthodox people both think and feel.
    Tell me, father: if your friend invited you to perform an act that is suitable for living and of course you would resist, and your friend called you weak - how would you feel? Did you even bother to respond? Or were you afraid that there would be no point in referring to you? Would you try to restrain him or would you flee to less frightening realms?

    I didn't study psychology but I know the phenomenon of a public that feels threatened. The media calls them extremists. And usually they see the moderates as their staunch rivals and not as their external enemies.
    As a religious person, I have been attacked (not personally) for as long as I can remember by groups in the Orthodox public with claims that I am an apostate or a foreign slave worker in collaboration just because I do not belong to their group. Well then - is that why I abandoned Judaism? No! My profession is too good for me to leave it for any reason. Are you ashamed of them? Definitely. But think that to the same extent and even more than that, they are ashamed of me.

  367. Hello my father,

    The truth is, you did annoy me, very much, and insulted me, very much, but I'm not sure you understand why. let me explain

    As I said, I am an ultra-orthodox person, by birth, I grew up in the center of Bnei Brak, and I have not changed my lifestyle in a fundamental way since I was born until today.

    I serve in a managerial position in a hi-tech company, and many of my ultra-Orthodox friends serve in various positions in various hi-tech companies. I must respond and say that your article is a serious insult to intelligence regardless of the religious aspect. I don't really want to get into the content of things (some of the issues have already received references before), but this is shallowness at unbelievable levels, and lies and nonsense that are intertwined are well seasoned with the blood of hatred.

    So why is a person like me, who happens to be in the order of secular articles still excited about this? Because I was hurt mainly by giving credit to a person who doesn't deserve it. I gave you credit even though it was clear to me that our opinions were very far from each other, but I thought you were a smart person with a matter-of-fact and scientific approach, and suddenly I got it in the face!
    For a long time I have not met such shallowness and stupidity even in the most inferior people that you can meet in the street, and you made me insult myself, how could I give you credit that is so far from you.

    But, reading between your lines, I recognize that this is not malicious intent, but real malice of a person who fed him straw in quantities until it came out of his ears, so I want for your benefit and the benefit of other people to open a window for you to understand those people, those on the other side. I'm talking about getting to know the reality only, I have no intention of having ideological debates with anyone. I'm not interested in being convinced that I'm wrong, and I'm not interested in convincing others that I'm right, I just want to open a door to a better acquaintance with the opposite world, and I'll explain why I think it's important.

    I know thousands of ultra-Orthodox people. I live in them. I also know many secularists, and many of my good friends are very far from religion. And from my place it is clear to me that most of our problem is a huge ignorance of knowing the other.

    In every ultra-Orthodox family, even in the most extreme ones, you always get to the point where someone says that in a meeting with secular people they told him after getting to know you, you are not like the normal ultra-Orthodox people.. Yes, we are all not like the ultra-Orthodox people..

    I'm not going to say that everything is fine with the ultra-Orthodox, I also don't agree with many things about the ultra-Orthodox, and the internal diversity among the ultra-Orthodox is enormous, and I know that there is also a lot of ignorance among the ultra-Orthodox regarding the secular, but I'm sure that the secular are awash in opinions with no grasp of reality to an unbelievable extent.

    You can believe it, you can not believe it, but those who know will not say most of the nonsense that is heard in the media, and there is absolutely no chance that he will write an article like the one written here.

    Anyone who is really interested in getting to know the ultra-Orthodox world, or who thinks he has something to introduce me to in the secular world, and not for the purposes of ideological debates, is welcome to chat with me via email:

    (Unlike Stigma, I'm very busy, and I apologize in advance if it takes me a little time to respond)

    Father, for your honor, remove this stupid and unnecessary article! (Even though I spent so much time responding to it..)

  368. For Noam, as long as the voice of the moderates is not heard, there is reason to believe that either they are weak and few and therefore there is no point in treating them, or that they are moderate only out of apologetics but inside they are extremists. The end result - no one restrains the extremists and therefore for me this is what they represent. Even the honest lawyers should not suffer because 90% shame the profession.

  369. Amit I can refer you to the debates on the Daily Capitalist blog at NRG with people who think that science is a luxury and that money should not be spent on recycling. If someone wants a secular religious substitute, i.e. community activity (I don't think there is such a thing as a green religion, it's just nonsense that the global warming deniers call the activists for the cessation of emissions and pollution) - please there is an option to act on issues such as recycling at the local level and in favor of switching to renewable energy at the higher level National and global.

  370. Most of the responses of the religious and their apologia are not even worth responses. pathetic.

  371. My father - there is a difference between the Orthodox. There are ultra-Orthodox some of whom work and all of them do not serve in the army, while the religious serve in the army and work. You must know that. So why generalize?
    Another thing: if a religious person feels a sense of superiority and a sense of wisdom, he is wrong. And it should be said explicitly.

  372. I think that these results also require a home inspection by us secular people.
    With all my opposition to the mindset of ultra-Orthodox society in particular and religion in general (by the way, I am completely secular and an atheist today, but I grew up in a traditional home), there are many problems with the secular modern longevity that we are all proud of, which is a significant factor in why many choose to go in the direction of religion in order to fill gaps that the secular culture creates:

    Just like the ultra-orthodox worship God, we recently worship money.
    The capitalist culture that we adopt with such enthusiasm from our American friends leads to the disintegration of the family and community unit and is responsible to a significant extent for the crime and moral deterioration that we are experiencing in Israel today.

    Secular parents rarely spend quality time with their children, and the most "quality" pastime is, at best, shopping that compensates for the growing deficit.

    My parents got closer to religion when they became friends with a religious family, and I think one of the things that particularly fascinated them was the matter of the family dinner: the whole family together without the television in the background.

    In conclusion, first of all we should criticize ourselves before we criticize the other: all religious customs are primarily defense mechanisms, and the prevailing trend today in Israel and in the world is extremism: an escape from the family and community system from here, and an escape towards religion from the other side.
    At this rate, our ability to bridge gaps is only getting smaller and we are also getting closer in Israel to a cultural clash that no one will benefit from...

  373. to be disappointed

    There is a close connection between the pursuit of science in Israel and the rule of religion. Every repentant begins humming the chant of repentant scientists and engineers, show me more than one or two handfuls of such people and the first to rejoice. It is very easy to say that you are secular and disappointed, behind the keyboard no one knows who you are. What's more, nanotechnology does not depend on my religious view, and not on the articles on evolution, but only on one thing - the scientific truth.

  374. I am secular and like all seculars I would also freak out when I would hear the outrageous phrase "seculars have no values". And like any secular here, I can write a series of secular values ​​in the blink of an eye.
    But among us, these values ​​are quite regrettable.
    Not believing in God is not a value so what is left?
    Some of those values ​​are basic principles that are nothing more than a starting point for the values ​​of the religious/Orthodox person. Another part of those values ​​concerns democratic rules, freedom and civil rights of various kinds which mean nothing to the religious/Orthodox person.

    So, great, here we have an orderly list of values.
    What is its value?
    How many of us are ready, right now, to drop everything and go fight for them?

    The ultra-Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox parties prevent the seculars from eating what they want when they want, so why aren't there 200,000 angry seculars on the streets? Because if one yeshiva is closed and the budget that comes out of our pockets prevents it, there will immediately be 300,000 angry ultra-Orthodox on the streets.

    Whatever the general vector of the list of values ​​and seculars is, there is one value in that list that is actually our top value. First me and then the community. First my personal happiness and my personal comfort and my money and only then that of others.

    Except for an exceptional few, hereafter the activists will be called, we are all armchair/keyboard secularists. What is the value of these values ​​if no one is willing to come out and fight for them?

  375. The State of Israel was established by secularists who rebelled against religion, and for years they were assigned out of disgust by the ultra-Orthodox. Herzl worked very hard to convince people to immigrate to Israel and he invited their representatives to the Congress, only a few came. It took several pogroms to convince some pioneers to come up.
    By the way, oil, or in its gaseous form - natural gas, is abundant, it's just a shame that the morons who sit upstairs and make destructive coalitions with the ultra-Orthodox also gave it as a gift to the tycoons.
    Religion - any religion by the way - provides a false meaning.

  376. Yoram Are most of the converts mature? I wish, they usually catch the youth, because there is no law against missionary work that claims to be Jewish (pretends - according to Chabad)

  377. What a bunch of crap.
    1) Most converts remain in their workplace.
    2) Bullshit studies ("political and social" sciences) in universities cause much more damage to the country. They cost a lot of money and produce nothing positive.
    3) What you are trying to do was already tried 2000 years ago and every year we celebrate the victory (I would be happy to know which side you associate yourself with)
    4) Instead of asking what to do to keep the seculars secular (after all, most converts are adults) you try to steal children from the ultra-orthodox.

  378. Lavi, you are right, but we can only correct ourselves, not those who stand in front of us.

  379. Father, you don't know many religious people... at least according to the article.

    By the way, the State of Israel would not have been established without the Jewish heritage. What about us and 22,000 square kilometers in the heart of the Middle East?
    It's hot here, there's no water, no oil, nothing! We came back here because the religion you hate so much continued to inflame the hearts of the Jews in the diaspora. I don't know, maybe you're not really happy with the decision to come back here...

    I agree that the strengthening of religion can lead to harm in practical areas throughout the country if programs and institutions are not established to train the religious in various professional and scientific training. I agree that there is also the danger of religious coercion and all kinds of laws that will pass and make life difficult for the secular, and that is also a problem.

    At the end of the day, people are bothered by the wish of death. Life goes by pretty quickly and our awareness as humans pushes us to find meaning in it all. Meaning for the achievements we have achieved in life when actually after our death we do not enjoy them... Religion provides the meaning on the one hand but also requires changes in priorities and habits on the other hand. Progress in religion (which may be a psychological illusion in your opinion) becomes a strengthening of faith and not of reason.
    The mind is seen as a neutral tool that can help strengthen disbelief or belief equally.

  380. To Gilad Maranana: What will you get out of this?! Try to be purposeful. Want to convince? You have no chance! And why don't you have a chance? Because they speak emotion. I have yet to meet someone who convinced their boyfriend to hate or disown their parents just because they are ugly or old.
    So are the religious. They speak emotion and it doesn't matter if you logically explain to them that their father is a fiction = it's just hopeless.
    If you had any emotional arguments that were balanced or then you had a weapon in your hands but there just isn't!
    In the environments and social circumstances in which a lie is supported on such a scale there is no problem to speak nonsense without being ashamed and this is the situation in Israel at the moment as well as in the entire Middle East and in Arab countries where Islam rules. The name of God is in the mouth of the entire population so that it is impossible to show them the ridiculousness and lies in the matter. the misery of the Bible and the Koran and the various gospels.
    An environment that supports a lie is an impossible environment for logic to survive in
    And such lies and conventions can survive thousands of years as long as they are not contradictory
    or come into conflict with the basic needs of the population.
    (Communism fell because of the conflict with these basic needs and not because it is false).

    Man will eventually make the necessary evolutionary leap and free himself from the shackles of religion - and the agents of religion will not be able to prevent this.
    At the end of the process man will be freed from these vanities, but by then religion will receive its pint of flesh and blood and humanity will be forced to experience crises and wars and conquests of religion.

    Religion is a derivative of hope.
    When an organism hopes and draws strength even if it is not from a rational source, it gets a considerable advantage over those who do not use this feature, and therefore man is the product of long chains of creatures who hoped and hung their gold on the irrational = and received the ultimate reward for it... not just survival but the transmission of the important feature This one is on.
    So are all the creatures and all the animals - they usually continue to struggle while they are wasted and hopeless right up to the last moment.
    It is enough that in the distant past the chance of survival following these struggles increased from 0 to 0.0000001 this difference made the difference and the viability of fighting and continuing to believe until the last moment
    And that is exactly what these believers continue to do. They and all of us are programmed to believe.
    We are the exceptions who prefer to fight this natural tendency and I am convinced by the way that we pay some kind of mental price as a result.
    (Either our mental structure happens to be stronger or structured in a different way and we are able to contain reality as it is or like many other good people towards the end we will "stutter" and faith will pop out - which by the way is an equally fascinating subject)

    It will take a few more years and the person will realize that with the help of an injection into the human brain or with the help of genetic manipulations it is possible to "create" a believer and or a person with everything we call one or another human quality and then at some point in time everyone will be proven and disdain the matter of religion.

    And just as we invite children with blue eyes or high intelligence, so we can wean people from this pathetic addiction to hope.
    And if along the way we can make them come to terms with a life without purpose and purpose and feel good about it, then we will be on the king's road.
    In the meantime, it is very advisable to check why certain people are able to live without these superstitions and how they mentally deal with the lack and emptiness - because I am sure that it exists at the end of the day in everyone who is a thinking person.

  381. As an avid reader of articles on the website, I am certainly very disappointed. I have many acquaintances, including doctors, engineers, pilots and scientists who have repented. Most of them, by the way, are considered elite in their field (and most of them repented after studying science). They work and pay taxes like the rest of us and serve proudly in the army. As a Shabbat keeper who works and pays a lot of taxes to the state, I protest against the imputation that indicates a great ignorance on the part of the author of the article and the exploitation of the site for his private needs To spread hatred of Judaism.
    Sometimes a person who wants to be operated on by a surgeon sees his reference to other topics and thereby affects his training, at the moment I suspect that other articles (on other topics, including scientific ones) by my father are also full of ignorance and attempts to convince the reader to believe in my father's view and not in accordance with objective data as required and as required
    On a site whose name requires "scientist"
    And regarding my father's response (in No. 13), what a wretched indolence

  382. I want to set up a stand here in Ra'anana, in front of the stands of the religious missionaries, just to get them the juice.
    Anyone want to join?

  383. Father, in any case we seculars have lost the battle and the battle. We lost a tactical and strategic leg and if you think you can turn the bowl upside down you are wrong.
    When it was still possible and when it was possible to block budgets and force them to study and expose them to science and enlightened secularism, we didn't do it and now the wave is too big and the flow cannot be stopped.
    I personally no longer have the strength or desire to fight this Sisyphean war.
    I used to think that I could still change something and argue and speak to people's minds, but at the end of the day I realized: they speak emotion and we speak reason. They fill a great emotional need and a deep emptiness and therefore they will hang on even the most illogical arguments in the world in order to quiet the misery and fear and the lack of taste in their lives.
    The enlightened and those who use common sense have emigrated/will emigrate and all the rest of the earth's rubbish and rubbish will remain here.

  384. "What is unscientific about worrying that a growing part of the public is looking for science" - they are not looking for science.
    They are looking for faith, meaning in life, spirituality,
    which are not of interest to science, and cannot be discovered by empirical findings.
    At points where there is an apparent contradiction between religion and science, for those who care,
    There are ways, opinions, interpretations that help bridge the gap between religion and science.

    Again, I don't understand the relevance of the article to the website.

  385. Indeed, we are a country haunted by demons, and it is good that there is a site like "Hidan" that shows the whole picture.
    And to all the angry commenters, although this is a science site, it has a "society and history" category.
    And such articles fit like a glove in this category.

    It is difficult for me to see the State of Israel in a positive light in 2-30 years, when I know when the ultra-orthodox are in the country
    will be a majority. What's more, the State of Israel itself finances various repentance organizations, and invests in them
    Millions of shekels.

    The graph from Prof. Ben-David's research does not bode well:,7340,L-3416866,00.html .

  386. Ron, first of all as a complete secularist you and I are on the same side. I have nothing to do with religion. I believe she is making false claims about the world. But, I don't think that the reason why people turn to a religious way of life is related to an ontological debate, what is real and what is false, but out of existential mental needs. Those who abandon secular culture (and there are quite a few) abandon you even though they were exposed to scientific knowledge and studied as complete secularists. The question every secularist should ask is why. What is missing in the secular culture that is apparently present in the religious culture?
    I think that the religious culture meets mental needs that were not satisfied in the secular culture. Therefore, as secularists, we must find out how to correct this and connect science and the existential added value. As for educated people who are also religious, there are so many examples. A prominent example is Isaiah Leibovitz. And there are many more like it.

  387. Eran, please, that the ultra-orthodox recognize that even the secular have values. So there will be something to talk about., so far they only unilaterally demand the opposite.

  388. Come on - you're really scared...
    You are invited to join - being religious does not mean living in ignorance...

    Congratulations on becoming part of the 3% most secular in the country (according to the above survey - 6% of the secular, which is 42% of the public - declare that they have no affinity or connection to the Jewish tradition).

    So how is it to be a smaller minority than the Druze in Israel / the settlers?

    Be careful not to disappear suddenly 🙂

    Congratulations on a good signing
    And that this year you will be privileged to see the light in Judaism and not just the glass half empty


  389. As far as I can see, being in a secular country or being religious are two extreme situations that lead us nowhere. Like an optimist and a pessimist - both will eventually experience the time and place together.
    Each one offends the other in order to preserve a certain type of values ​​that he believes in, so I think it is necessary to recognize the values ​​of that population first and then talk.

    Criticism of religion - instead of praying for good, do good.
    Criticism of the secular - the world we live in requires us to be conservative.

    Be tolerant

  390. Omri:
    And why is it important, in your opinion, to write about horrific phenomena (literally) in a positive spirit?
    Do you think that a man who sends his sons to the army while providing for the haredi children who evade military service should be partly happy?

  391. I once heard from a penitent that the reason for penance is in general emptiness. Depression..a lack of meaning in life that religion solved for him.
    Science, on the other hand, gives you questions and answers and discoveries, but does not fill you mentally..or doesn't matter. The problem is psychological and because of the failure of science to provide answers to the big questions like, the meaning of life, what are we here for? Do we live just to survive?
    Something to think about.
    And another point, that your series of articles, Abbi, are very negative and unpleasant to read. It says something about you and what goes on inside you. It seems that you are trying to influence...probably influence with anger and probably without understanding from all parties.
    I enjoy all the other articles and find a lot of positives. I really enjoy reading unlike other newspapers that are flooded with negativity.

  392. My father: There is no study of the theory of evolution in high school, therefore there is no student either.
    As far as I know, evolution is only taught at the university... and it's a shame!

  393. Dear "one who reads", you said:
    And the winter that Minister Yishai forced upon us?! – Populism incarnate!!! The law that was enacted in 2005 at the suggestion of Haim Oron of the United-Mertz!!! (link attached)

    The law was not Oron's initiative, rather it was a compromise reached with Shas:
    "As a reminder, the Knesset of Israel, on Tuesday, 1.3.05th of Adar 2005 40 (9) approved the Time Determination (Amendment) Law 2 - XNUMX. The accepted law is the compromise proposal that was accepted at the initiative of the MRC Haim Oron) and Shas (MK David Azoulai). The law was passed; XNUMX - in favor, XNUMX - opposed, XNUMX - abstained."
    Link to the full article:

    So Shas demanded an even more radical law (perhaps like with the Palestinian Authority, which increased the move to advance by one more month?), finally Oron reached a compromise with them, and he even said that it was better to save the fight with the ultra-Orthodox for another day - that is, he actually does not support the law, And what happens after a few years?
    Shas and their representatives claim that the law was initiated by Oron(!).
    Indeed, the truth from them onwards.
    And no, it was not possible, and probably will not be possible, to change the law because the political system is captive in the hands of an ultra-Orthodox pressure group. You are aware of the political reality in Israel, there is no need to be dumbfounded.

    And yes, the ultra-orthodox are a non-productive group. This is the meaning of "not productive". This is not an expression of opinion of the author. It's a statistic.

  394. Enough with the phenomenon of political correctness, as someone who was present at a conference of returnees (out of scientific curiosity) I must point out that on the ultra-Orthodox side the treatment of the secularists mixes hatred and fear that stem from a basic lack of understanding of secularism.
    When the ultra-Orthodox (exclusively ultra-Orthodox) insult, hurt, threaten and resort to violence towards the secular lifestyle I don't feel like talking to them or about them, I think that the ultra-Orthodox lifestyle does not promote humanity but rather fixes it in the same place (somewhere in Eastern Europe of the 15th century) and prevents the human being from reaching the stars (literally)

  395. To all the slanderers, except for your rage at my father's style, you said nothing.
    I'm secular and I don't regret his style, for too long we've been having this discussion on low heat while a wave of religiosity and orthodoxy sweeps the country.
    Still don't like the style? At least you will have the intellectual honesty to refer to the author's words.

    To Yossi:
    You claimed that there are many people with a broad education and scientists who have chosen a religious lifestyle. This is not something found in the CBS survey results, I have never read or heard about this phenomenon, and from my personal experience as a student at Givat-Ram, among all the hundreds of lecturers there is one who is a convert - Professor Rips from the mathematics department. And this is on a campus that is known for the large number of religious people on its faculty.
    Please listen to me, where did you get the above information about thousands of educated people who chose to repent?
    Popular culture exists in both secular and religious civilizations, there is no need to be dumbfounded. See talismans, prostrating the graves of righteous people and other shameful deeds. The main difference is that in one missionary system the state supports and the other does not. It is this support that leads to the great success of the converts and hence to your unnecessary confidence that "secular culture has deteriorated" in front of the religious culture.

    We call it tacit consent. In each of these cases, no voice of protest was heard from the ultra-Orthodox religious community in Israel. And there have been enough shameful events to give you the opportunity to respond.
    You claimed that many of the converts choose the Zionist path? This goes against any anecdotal knowledge I have on the matter, according to conversations with religious people, these are the converts who are among the ultra-Orthodox.

    And Dan Ergman, pulling the auto-anti-Semitism card is a despicable and despicable thing.
    There is no uglier ad hominem in this country. Except for calling him a Nazi.

  396. I know the article is difficult, however, I did not write anywhere in it that they should not believe, but that they should work and serve the country just like us and not make their religion a profession for hundreds of thousands of people, and certainly not to repent out of some unclear sense of superiority and feeling as if they are more Smart, while the opposite is true. The argument about the shallowness stems from the fact that it is impossible to constantly repeat the same analyzes we did in the past, read all the episodes of the series and you will have a big picture with in-depth detail.
    Privately, everyone will believe what they want and organize in a community similar to them, just like in the USA (only if we stop importing the missionaries from there)
    I was also upset that many websites chose the ultra-Orthodox term to describe the phenomenon, and I decided that those who search the internet for the review of the report will also get the correct term.

  397. hello to my father,
    I am so sorry for the appearance of an article of such a level on a site that I respect so much and follow on a daily basis.

    It simply gives off a foul smell of shallow, one-sided writing that ignores reality that reminds most of all of the religious extremists.
    Don't you see that you are committing the same sin that you are against...
    Too bad. I suggest downloading the article.

  398. According to Dan Argeman, indeed anyone who wants a modern state is anti-Semitic and anyone who wants to bring us closer to the situation in Iran is a Zionist. I don't need a lesson in Zionism.

  399. so shallow,
    Religious = murmuring?!
    Religious = unproductive?!

    The winter time imposed on us by Minister Yishai?! – Populism incarnate!!! The law that was enacted in 2005 at the suggestion of Haim Oron of the United-Mertz!!! (link attached)
    What is wrong with Eli Yishai and this?! You want to change the rules?! - There is a way for that - in the Knesset.
    If he doesn't stop at a red light? - So I will obey the law and he will do what I want? Or will I set up a Facebook group and start revolting the entire public? A law is a law, and if it bothers you, it could have been changed during all the previous months.

  400. As someone who founded a site called: "Hidan" you did not give me the impression of a particularly knowledgeable person.
    Stupid and superficial claims, lack of understanding of the field you are writing about and ridiculous generalizations are not characteristics of a scientist or a scholar.
    But, anti-Semitism never needed scientific reasoning. And when she needed, it was not difficult to provide her with the scientific aura.

    poor quality!

  401. Father, the numbers do not reflect the reality and the reasons for repentance. There are many people with a wide education and scientists who have chosen a religious lifestyle which they believe is compatible with religion. (How do they do this, you have to ask them). You start from the point of assumption that every person who is exposed to scientific truth will necessarily be secular. I think this misses the role of religion and its meaning in human existence. The way to deal with religion is to ask if the secular culture has deteriorated, which from an existentialist point of view does not provide deep and necessary existential answers for its construction. The ratings culture, reality shows, stupid TV shows and more, create a void for some people, for some of them, religion provides an answer. This need has nothing to do with controversies such as evolution versus creationism. For most of them this is an unimportant issue. The secular culture needs to rehabilitate itself as a worthy alternative from an existential and educational point of view for the youth. Therefore, instead of fighting religion and the religious, the secularists should conduct a thorough home inspection. (For example, today the humanities are less considered in academia - few go to study philosophy - only the exact sciences or the profitable sciences are common).

  402. Spring. - In my opinion, we have already lost the battle for the state - 50% of first grade students in the Jewish sector are religious or ultra-Orthodox. The battle is over Greater Tel Aviv, which may preserve the pluralistic Israel-Haaretz position. I deliberately do not write "secular", because unlike the ultra-Orthodox, they do not bother me to the extent that I (so much) bother them...
    In my view, the takeover of one of the parties will be in the hands of the state in all respects.
    Apparently, the existence in the Middle East that is bathed in Islamic religious ecstasy causes a backlash among us. Unfortunately, we are moving away from something much more important than the OECD. - We are moving away from modern Western culture and slowly sinking into the third world... (with all the hi-tech and other decorations that every bar-bi-rab in Israel appropriates "we made... we built...")

  403. The phenomenon of religious intensification is observed not only in Israel. People all over the world are looking for something. Europe becomes Muslim, Africa and East Asia become Christian. What makes Israel unique is only that the hiatolots are from the religion of Moses and Aaron.

    Some of us look at the phenomenon with disgust, sorrow and fear. For those who want to change, I suggest not to attack only the system. This is because the problem, as mentioned, is global and not just local. I suggest looking for its causes also within the human soul and in technological changes. For example, today there is more free time and less interesting pursuits.

  404. I'm actually not secular but religious, not ultra-orthodox.
    And I am very surprised by you, my father.
    Do you really believe that the majority of the religious, or even the majority of the ultra-Orthodox, supports the starving mother? Support violent protests? By religious coercion? Most of them do not work and are not productive?
    Not to mention that many of the converts choose the Zionist path, which is very damaging to the economy and the country.
    Calling repentance as a rule 'demon-haunted' is really unacceptable.
    Calling Jewish studies nonsense... Judaism is also studied in the academy. And very seriously.

    What about an article full of resentment like this, and for a scientific website.

  405. "There is definitely a fear of homogeneity of opinions"

    Prof. Omar Moav recently found himself identifying with some of the arguments put forward by right-wing organizations against the academy in Israel, regarding the high number of lecturers from the extreme left in certain circles

    It was published yesterday in Calcalits, here on the site there is no fear of the hegemony of opinions, it is already a fait accompli, and it's a shame,7340,L-3417389,00.html

  406. in her

    Your surgery doesn't match the numbers, due in next week.
    It is wrong to submit such an article, I suggest you start muttering that you will pass
    the ladder

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