Minutes of the Science Committee of the Knesset November 18, 2003 agenda: genetically engineered food
were present:
Members of the committee: Meli Polishuk-Bloch - the chairman; Jamal Zahalka; Ofir Pins-Paz
invited:
Bracha Reger - Assistant Chief Scientist, Ministry of Health Ofra Havkin - Central District Physician and Chairman of the Committee for Innovative Food, Ministry of Health
Yedidia Gafni - Director of the Biotechnology Department, Agricultural Research Administration, Volcani Institute, Ministry of Agriculture
Aryeh Maoz - Secretary of the Transgenic Plants Committee, Ministry of Agriculture
Miriam Freund - Deputy Director, Plant Protection, Ministry of Agriculture
Emma Tabrovski - Plant Protection Services, Ministry of Agriculture
Yair Sharan - Deputy Director of Foreign Trade Administration, Ministry of Taxation
Oded Arbel - Ministry of Taxation
Hasem Masalha - Head of Agriculture and Environmental Quality, Ministry of Science and Technology
Zvi Goldstein - Director of the Food Industries Association, the Association of Manufacturers
Moshe Nesher - Food Technologist, Food Industries Association, Association of Manufacturers
Fazit Atlas Rabina - "Mekor Rishon" newspaper reporter
Tamara Traubman - Haaretz newspaper reporter
Andrzej Ettinger - Center for Environmental Thinking and Leadership
Avi Levy - Chairman of the Green Action Organization
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I am honored to open the meeting. Hello everyone, to those present in the room and to those watching at home. We always enjoy talking to the viewers at home as well, because it is important to us that they get to know closely the activities of the Science and Technology Committee in the Knesset. Today we are dealing with a subject that really concerns each and every one of us at home and here, in the Knesset of course, and that is the food we eat. Unfortunately, the encouragement to deal with the issue was created because of the tragedy we had a few days ago, the "Remedy" tragedy, which raised the awareness of the entire public about the issue of the food we eat. We get a tomato on the plate. We thought it was a tomato, and maybe there was something else in it. We give food to a baby and tell us what's in it, and suddenly, there's something else in it. We saw in the most tragic way possible, what consequences the food we eat has on our health, to the most serious situation, that two babies died from the food they ate and several others were injured and we still don't know to what degree they are injured.
It is true that "remedia" is not exactly genetically engineered food, as I understand it. It can perhaps be defined as industrial food – –
Aryeh Maoz:
It's processed food.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I'll let you speak right away. Today we are talking about genetically modified food.
Aryeh Maoz:
There is no such thing.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
You immediately say what you have to say. That's why we gather here, to learn from the experts, because we don't know everything here. We know very little, so we invite the first-rate experts in the State of Israel to hear from them. Beyond that, after we learn and answer the questions do we know what we eat, does the public know what they put in their mouths, do they inform us what we eat. Are those who are responsible for informing us what we eat doing so? Is the product labeled correctly? Is there anyone who checks, that what is indeed marked is indeed what we receive? Are there studies on the consequences of what we eat? Are there studies that teach us what the consequences of eating this type of food are? Of course, we here, in the Knesset, also want to know if there are regulations that obligate producers, growers and other authorities in one way or another. All these issues, we came today to deal with them, to see if there is a loophole, if there is a problem... the problem exists, that's clear, but to see how we handle the problem.
I will quote to you from what I read this morning in the newspaper: "The Director General of the World Health Organization, Dr. Lee Gun-hok says: We did not think of such a possibility and more in Germany, the place that is supposed to be the most orderly, the most standard in the world. Until now, he says, the fear was of adding substances to food that would cause food poisoning. We didn't think about the possibility of removing an essential ingredient from the food." Again, I say that I make the diagnosis between different types of food and I remind us that we are engaged in food engineering and you will awaken our eyes to the fact that there are differences. Still, the problem is a problem. The same Director General of the World Health Organization talks about how the tragic event that happened in Israel shows that there is a breach in the way baby food is monitored in the world. From this, I deduce that if there is a problem with baby food, which is one of the things that make it worse, the loophole probably exists in other things as well and this loophole should be closed immediately. I'm not talking right now about the danger of terrorism and all kinds of bad thoughts. I want to direct the speakers here, to the topic of the yeshiva: there is genetically modified food, we will understand in a definite way what it says and what that genetically modified food does to us.
I want to emphasize one more thing: we are sitting here under the hat of a science and technology committee. We here, at the Science and Technology Committee, are definitely in favor of technological improvements of any kind. We are in favor of scientific innovations, so that there will be no misunderstandings. We are in favor of using science and technology for our day-to-day needs, absolutely yes. At the same time, we need to make sure that the use is informed, that it is tested, that it is in thinking before the act and not an after the fact examination, as I spoke before and it is our duty here, in the Knesset, to amend the regulations or enact the laws, so that we can tell the people of Israel and those who live here, that we did everything so that disasters do not happen. So that what you eat, be sure that it is good for your health.
I am opening the discussion, please Professor Yedidia Gafni, Director of the Department of Biotechnology in the Agricultural Research Administration at the Volcanic Institute. You will give us a short presentation on genetic engineering in plants. Then Dr. Ofra Havkin, a doctor in the Central District and the chairperson of the committee for modern food at the Ministry of Health, will speak, and then the discussion will be open to all the speakers here, including my lord. you are welcome.
Yedidya Gafni:
Good afternoon to you. Madam Speaker, members of the Knesset, I thank you for this opportunity. I think that all of us, without exception, in our opinions about the issue should be satisfied that we live in a country whose Knesset has a committee called the Committee for Technology and Science. I am not sure that every parliament in the world has such a thing.
I would like to very briefly introduce to you the topic of genetic engineering in plants and I agree with Dr. Maoz that perhaps the nature of this language, genetic engineering, is not successful, but it has been embedded and it exists and we live with it and we have many misconceptions about it and we actually want to understand what it is about .
What is genetic engineering anyway? In a minute and a half, it is basically our abilities to transfer hereditary traits as a chemical substance even outside the species. Until the age of genetic engineering, the transfer of traits was done within the species. We took and made hybrids within the species. We could not break through the barriers between the sexes. Genetic engineering allows me today to take hereditary material or DNA, a certain gene, remove it from its source and combine it with another source. This is genetic engineering.
In the Agricultural Research Administration, called by the very popular name: the Volcanic Institute, as in other institutions in Israel and the world, they also make genetically modified plants. My part today is to bring you the information, what are they doing there anyway. How do you make a genetically modified plant? So here, for example, here on the left we have some source of genetic information and in this case it is a bacterium. I want to extract from it the gene that interests me and transfer it to plants. There is such a story and today it covers hundreds of millions of dunams in the world. Then, I extract the DNA from the bacteria and I isolate the gene I'm interested in and I study it for its exact chemical structure. I know exactly what I have in hand, unlike classic hybrids and then I transfer it to the plants. More in detail, how do I make a genetically modified plant? In plants, unlike animals, I have a fantastic capacity for regeneration. To recreate a plant from a single cell. This is the beauty of the plant world and that's why I moved there, I was also involved in brain research. The beauty is, you take a single cell and you can insert DNA into it and then turn it into a whole plant. This thing can be seen in this slide, you see the individual cells on the right, in the middle I drew DNA and on the left you see one of the technologies. There are many, it is simply visual and in which we insert a very thin glass micropipette into the cell and transfer the DNA inside. The DNA is supposed to integrate into the DNA of the plant and then I multiply the cells in nutrient media, of course synthetic nutrient media. The whole process is done under sterile conditions, on agar, which contains hormones that cause cell divisions. That is, all the cells that will be created originate from the original cell that received the DNA, meaning: they all now contain the DNA.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
But it's not the same DNA. It's something complex.
Yedidya Gafni:
The same DNA that I inserted is now in each and every cell in the cell culture, because they are a complete copy of the original cell that I engineered or changed in the form of inserting DNA into it or a gene into it. All the cells that will be created from the original cell are basically an amorphous cell block, without any subtle differentiation, that contains the foreign DNA. Then, I come and under these conditions induce in the food substrate the beginning of regeneration, of creating a whole plant using plant hormones in the substrate. And here before you, you see plants starting to rise from the substrate, when these plants all contain in each and every cell of their cells the foreign DNA that I introduced. So I can isolate them. Please note that this is all under laboratory, sterile and closed conditions and I transfer them to food substrates that cause rooting. The game here is in the food substrates, in the visible medium at the bottom of the vessel, which actually contains the various hormones and then they start to root. And here, there is a plant that is a genetically modified plant.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Sorry, the food substrate has no effects on what is produced?
Yedidya Gafni:
The food substrate supports growth just as the soil in the soil supports growth. I copy it to laboratory conditions. But actually, it shouldn't give anything different than what nature gives to this plant. I copy it to synthetic conditions, so that it will be more convenient for me to work and that I will not have populations of bacteria and fungi, which could kill my plant.
Jamal Zahalka:
It's not exactly nature.
Yedidya Gafni:
Well, it's an imitation of him. Then, I can pot it out. And here, this plant is now moving to a pot and an industry of propagation, of rapid multiplication of plants, which has existed with us for many years, even before the age of genetic engineering. There are entire industries, including here in Israel, there are kibbutzim that make a living from the rapid multiplication of plants and this is a technology that exists all over the world and has served us for many, many years for the production of agricultural plants.
Once I got it out, it's a pot for anything and it can also reach a field and then, from a single cell into which I've inserted DNA, I can reach a state of TOBACCO FIELDS FOR EVER. And here, you see a field in front of you, which started from a single cell into which I inserted a garden. Now, why would I even want to do this? What does genetic engineering in plants give me that I don't have in classic hybrids between plants of the same species? Well, there are many possibilities that the classical hybrids will not answer for me. For example, weed resistance. What you see here is a disaster. You see here a disaster in the prairie, because here farmers invested their best money to get a carrot field and what you see here is not a carrot, it's a lichen. The entire field went down the drain, because the leech, which is a weed, sprouts on the carrots and basically destroys the growth and also leaves seeds for the next season. If the farmer comes next year to try to grow the carrot, he will not be able to, because the ground is saturated with the seeds of the lichen. The classic cultivator would say, let's try to make an improvement. We will crossbreed and transfer such resistance from someone else who has it. And what if he doesn't have her? I mean, none of the carrot relatives contain such resistance? Therefore, I have no way in classical hybridization to transfer such resistance. Then, I enter a new era is the era of genetic engineering. I say that if I have a gene in a crop that is not a carrot, in a crop that absolutely does not undergo hybridization with carrots, but it gives me the opportunity to give the carrot resistance, maybe then I will give the carrot resistance and in this way I will actually prevent the aphid, because I will damage it and not the carrot and I will have Making a living from this land, which is not easy either. Agriculture is not a simple livelihood.
Another example is viruses: plants suffer from viruses. Yes, plants are sick too and they have doctors called phytopathologists. Do not underestimate it, because in the end we are talking about the food and it does not come from the supermarket, it comes from the field. Here you see above a healthy plantation and below a sick plantation. This plantation is a lost papaya plantation. Today there are technologies that work exceptionally well, to make plants resistant to viruses through genetic engineering. It works. In Hawaii, in the United States Pacific Islands, the papaya industry was saved from total loss as a result of genetic engineering. Today they produce papaya in reasonable quantities again, after a significant decrease in their production capacity.
Insects - who does not know this? You must know that insects are a very serious damage to agriculture. We know how to solve an insect problem, and what do we do? We spray. We spray with very unsympathetic insecticides, because it's organophosphates. These are unsympathetic substances to us, we have no choice in an industrialized society but to do so. We spray our fields with substances that we don't want to reach our food, not to reach our water sources, not to reach our soil. But what solution do we have? After all, we cannot tell the children not to go to school and work all day removing insects from the plants. So what do we do in modern society? We genetically engineer plants, so that they will be resistant to insects. In the world today there are over 600 million dunams of plants resistant to insects - -
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
What is insect resistant?
Yedidya Gafni:
That is, the insect climbs the plant, tries to bite it, it gives a very light bite and basically its digestive system is paralyzed and it dies of starvation.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Can't this effect on the insect also be on us?
Yedidya Gafni:
No, because we use bacteria that are the source of the gene even before the age of genetic engineering. The gene introduced into plants originates from bacteria, and the same bacteria have been used by us since the 60s and 50s, and they are environmentally friendly for the simple reason: the same substance that works against insects, since insects differ from us by a large evolutionary distance, works in insects and does not work in mammals, not necessarily in us. Even in mammals we don't want harm. I also feel sorry for my farm animals. It does not work in mammalian systems under any circumstances and I will elaborate on that when I get the chance. The ballgard is undoubtedly one of the greatest successes of genetic engineering. ballgard is a trade name for a genetically modified cotton product, which as mentioned is grown today in Argentina and also in the United States and it actually covers most of the cotton fields today and gives farmers a very big advantage, in that they don't have to buy these chemicals. Insecticides cost money. Also, they don't have to spray the amounts they sprayed before. They spray, I don't want to mislead you. We haven't solved the problem to the extent possible without spraying, but the spray levels have come down a lot.
Extending the life of the plant - here are two carnations made in Israel. The nail on the left is a genetically modified nail. Extend the life of her vase. The clove on the right and the clove on the left were both picked on the same day, but due to the fact that a gene was inserted into the clove on the left, its shelf life was extended. This can also be done on the products that reach our shelf, whether it is tomatoes, peppers or cucumbers, or any other product whose shelf life is important to us. It can be done. This will solve the problem that we constantly complain about, that the taste of our tomatoes is plastic, because we pick them unripe in order to get them to the supermarket on time, looking beautiful, but the preservatives don't break down, so they don't taste good. If we use this technology of extended shelf life by genetic engineering, the ripening will be done on the plant, the taste will be preserved and the softening will not start quickly.
What more can we ask for? This is where genetic engineering now comes in and uses the plant as a bioreactor, not only for the well-known and classic agricultural products, but also as a tool to produce completely foreign proteins in it, which are not at all important in agriculture, but they are cheap because I produce them under field conditions at cheap prices. As a result of Levi's beautiful research work at "Stanford", an American company created plants that produce toxin against cancer. For those of you who are interested in the article itself, I have it, it appears in a very respectable newspaper. In the article they describe exactly how they did it. They created not just any plants, they took tobacco plants and genetically engineered them to produce an antibody against a particular lymphoma disease and they produce a vaccine against lymphoma inside genetically engineered plants.
Vitamins - our focus has been on vitamins for the past two weeks and for good reason. You know exactly why. There are a lot of vitamins. We talked about B1 this week, but for example carotene, the same vitamin found in carrots, is an essential substance as pro-vitamin A. Why? Because vitamin A is necessary for our vision. It is also necessary for other things, but vision is where we all know vitamin A is needed and there are 2.5 billion inhabitants of this planet, who eat only rice or mostly white rice as food. It does not contain carotene. In the world, there are about 250,000 children who go blind every year just because of the simple fact that they do not get beta-carotene in their food. 250,000 children go blind every year. A very respected Swiss researcher and a good friend of the Israeli community, Ingo Potrichos, came up with the idea to genetically engineer rice, so that it would produce beta-carotene. He inserted a total of 3 genes into the rice, because 3 enzymes are missing in the beta-carotene biosynthetic pathway. He created the golden rice. The golden rice is actually rice that produces beta-carotene. This thing this year began to be given free to the people of the Philippines, to start and test how the public reacts to the golden rice. There are of course cultural questions, maybe they won't want it, I agree, we can talk about it, but the idea shows you the enormous power that genetic engineering has today.
It is also possible to increase the level of vitamin E, says de la Pena, not only is it possible, I did it. It raises the level of vitamin E inside the tomatoes. But if vitamin then why not vitamin B1, which was the star of our media until recently? Would you believe that we talked about all last week? It originates from soy. What you see here is soybeans. It is possible to make soybeans that naturally have vitamin B1 levels. At the moment, there is not enough soy. There is, but not enough. It is possible to increase the level of B1 in the plant. I'll get to that in a moment. I want to say a word about lycopene. Lycopene gives the tomato its beautiful red color. is an antioxidant. is a substance that is considered an important substance in protecting our DNA. Protecting our DNA means preventing cancer over the years. They did a study in the United States on lycopene and found that lycopene prevents prostate cancer. Here we have solid knowledge today, not in other things. My department, I am the director of the genetics department at the Volcani Institute, has a research group whose project is increasing the level of lycopene in tomatoes. get higher lycopene levels.
Before ending, I tell you that there is one thing that we should always take with us in mind, because we are spoiled. We are spoiled because we go into the supermarket and see an abundance of food, from side to side and take it for granted. I suggest that everyone go back to the book of Genesis and read: "Behold, seven years there will be a sign of great abundance in all the land of Egypt, and seven and two famines will arise after them, and all the abundance will be forgotten." Gentlemen, we are on a warming planet. It used to be the preserve of the scientists to say it, today you know it. This warming means desert, and the warming alone causes the loss of growing capacity in many, many fields. Add to that urbanization, urbanization, add to that a significant increase in the population, add to that the reduction of the force engaged in agriculture, you will realize that you must constantly develop tools to do at least as you have done up to now, on much less land with much fewer people. I feel that this is also a task assigned to us, who can introduce new technologies to produce better food, in larger quantities.
I want to refer to the matter of "remedy" and say something, that unfortunately a tragedy happened. But, there is something ironic here, precisely in the conversation about genetically modified food: look at this can, there is not a house that has not seen it on TV this week. Let's enlarge the left corner a bit and see that it says: without genetic engineering. That is, this product is safe gentlemen, it does not contain genetic engineering. This product is not safe at all. Furthermore, if it had been made from soybeans that contained vitamin B1 as a result of genetic engineering, this would not have happened. Maybe in the next generation, and I won't finish the sentence, you understand exactly what I mean.
I thank you very much for your attention.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Thank you. It was really fascinating. By the way, we have here, in the committee, the same newspaper section from June, which talks about this: Who engineered my cornflakes? Among other things, they emphasize here and give as an example the better food as a "remedy", because with him the food is not Hindu and they really quote what you said, including this caption. Apparently it's not everything and we need to look for other things as well.
Yedidya Gafni:
We need to work smart.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
It's not harmful. Please, Doctor Ofra Havkin.
Ofra Havkin:
I am a doctor in the Central District at the Ministry of Health and the national chairwoman of the Committee for Modern Food at the Ministry of Health. The issue of genetically modified food rose on the public agenda in the 90s. In the late 90s, a committee was appointed to discuss the issue at the Ministry of Health. Maybe after what you said about genetically modified food, you should really adopt the second name. We were appointed to a committee for modern food or "noble-food" which is an accepted concept and is perhaps more correct. This committee is inter-ministerial and representatives of the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Agriculture, the Association of Manufacturers and the Consumer Council participated in it from the beginning. Recently, representatives from the ministry of the Ministry of Education and the Green organizations were added. The committee, over the years of its activity, discussed various aspects of modern food, health and public aspects and issued a public information bulletin, which appears on the website of the Ministry of Health. Throughout this period, the committee has been responding to public inquiries on this issue and has also prepared a proposal for regulations regarding genetically modified food, which are at a very advanced stage.
As part of the discussions and the review of the literature that was done, we came to the conclusion that the information we know today does not indicate a health hazard in the consumption of genetically modified food, except for the fear in rare cases that such food may contain allergens for sensitive populations. It is important to note that the genetically modified food undergoes a process of registration and is tested, among other things, for its allergic effects. There is no production of genetically modified food in Israel, but it is imported, and the allergenic effect is tested in the countries of origin. If there is an allergic reaction, it is not approved for marketing.
Our committee decided that the food should be labeled to let the public choose according to their worldview, whether to eat such food or not. As for the legal situation in the world, in the United States and Canada there is a process of approval and registration, but there is no requirement for marking. In Europe, Japan, Australia and other countries, there is a process of approval and registration and there is also an obligation to label the genetically modified food. In Israel, we decided to adopt the European approach and proposed a regulation that includes both principles, both the registration and the marking obligation.
This proposed regulation was forwarded for reference over two years ago, in September 2001, to the relevant government ministries, the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Taxation. The Ministry of Agriculture has given its response, but the Ministry of Taxation is delaying giving its position on the matter and we have been conducting a very extensive correspondence on this subject all the time.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
What was the response of the Ministry of Agriculture?
Ofra Havkin:
The Ministry of Agriculture is in favor. Recently, we met with a representative of the Ministry of Taxation, who also sits here, and set a date for giving a response. At the time, 90 days had already passed and the delay continued until this day, and this is what prevents the continuation of the legislation. So to summarize, the committee's position was to both write and mark.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
You spared me questions for you, because I have the material here. This committee met in March 2000 to discuss the issue with other people and the questions you ask were really asked. I'm sorry, and we turn to you, Mr. Sheeran, for the fact that 3 years have passed, and there is still no unambiguous action. We would be happy to see your brochure and see if it meets the requirements. In the meantime, we will hear your words, Mr. Sheeran from the Ministry of Foreign Trade, Deputy Director of the Foreign Trade Administration.
Yair Sheeran:
First, we are certainly aware that this is a very important topic on the agenda. Even before the "Remadia" affair that came up in the way it came up on the table, unfortunately. In general, I would like to say that we, as the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, usually deal with issues that are more commercial. Obviously, today there are many issues that are not necessarily purely commercial, but they have commercial implications and therefore we are required to address them. Among other things, because these issues also come up in international agreements to which we are committed or in international organizations such as the International Trade Organization, where there is a preoccupation with issues that are not necessarily commercial at their core, but have commercial consequences and obviously, the commercial world is forced to To them and us too, as those who actually represent Israel's commercial interest.
This topic has really come up. During the time it came up and was mentioned here, I, personally, was due to fulfill a position abroad. I know that the ministry gave some kind of initial response, in which it actually asked to think about the issue, to understand its consequences in terms of economic relations and commercial consequences. That is to say, an initial answer was given, but no final answer was given. In any case, in recent months, following a heated exchange with us, between those dealing with the matter and also in light of the correspondence we have seen and managed with the Ministry of Health and with green organizations, we have decided to revisit the issue and basically rethink what the position of the Ministry should be. I mean, is the previous position really the right position or is it time to make some kind of position change.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
What is the conclusion? We don't have 3 years.
Yair Sheeran:
Right. I hope that we really set up a discussion at the highest level of the ministry, that is, at the level of the minister and the CEO right for the first week of December, and we hope that within the framework of that discussion the position of the ministry will really be finally determined. Again, this is with the participation of all the parties, this is an internal meeting, which in principle will include all the parties involved - -
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Is there a reason you are being delayed? Isn't there a reason in the law why this won't go ahead?
Ofra Havkin:
It went to the legal advisers and I think it also reached the Knesset by the legal adviser of the Ministry of Health and then they said it would be impossible to promote it, without the focus of all the ministries concerned. without agreement.
Yair Sheeran:
Excuse me, I really wanted to give the background as well - -
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
To give us an answer that you still don't have, you spoke for 5 minutes. So really a waste of time. We want answers. I, as the chairman of the science committee, am required to discuss the subject for the first time, but I did not start the subject from scratch. I continue what was done in the past. This was discussed 0 years ago. In fact, in practice, there are no results and I am asking you, if it is another 3 days, we will not fall for it. But, after the beginning of December, we will send a letter to the minister to get an answer and speed up the activity of the committee.
Yair Sheeran:
OK. Just to complete things: as a principle, we are probably going to change our approach, at least in part of the issue. There was some kind of approach used in the office until recently. We, the ones dealing with the matter, there are several bodies related to this in the office, whether it is foreign trade or consumer protection, and we wish to change the position. Want, in the end, to make the decision in the appropriate forum within the office. What is important for me to say, that while this consultation process was going on and we heard the professor's instructive lecture, the decision was delayed for the time being. There is no proof that this issue of consuming food that is defined as genetically modified food really causes any health problem. If I'm not mistaken, that was the position I also heard from the Ministry of Health. At the same time, we are certainly aware of the additional aspects, which are certainly legitimate and important.
A short word on the commercial side: there are very important consequences, this is an issue that is in a very deep dispute between the United States and the European community. Everyone is trying to attract
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
And because of this, this is where your reaction comes from, because we sell most of the food in Europe and you don't want to conflict with Europe and you put the emphasis on trade, which is very important to me.
Yair Sheeran:
It's not just that, it's beyond that. I mean, each of the parties, the United States and the European Community, is trying to gather support from countries and they are certainly also counting and looking at who is voting where, regardless of where the trade is going. It's not the most important thing and we try to find and take into account all the other interests, which we don't necessarily have a hand in and are definitely very, very important, to see how our commercial interest aligns with these things.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
This is your job, just do it faster. Doctor Arie Maoz, Secretary of the Transgenic Plants Committee or do you prefer to call it modern food as well?
Aryeh Maoz:
Honorable Chairperson, allow me to share in your sadness, that a discussion on genetic engineering, which is an important topic, takes place only in the shadow of catastrophes and is sometimes dictated by the media. Last week, maybe you also saw this program, when they tried to remind the presenter that there is no genetically modified food, there is no such animal, there is processed food and fresh food. I stand by these things because words can kill and it is very important that we be precise. Words can establish a relationship and I will just give an example: I was at a conference abroad and your little servant from Israel, when they talked about the risk of genetic engineering, I voted and asked that we use the word: influence - impact at this conference. We can talk about this or that effect. Once I set a risk, I set a position. Also in the example that Professor Gafni gave, the word toxin is used, and you ask if this toxin is harmful. We don't have a better word. The toxin affects selectively, so it is important to be precise.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
So why is the committee called the "Transgenic Plants Committee"?
Aryeh Maoz:
Because there are only transgenic plants. The law in England is called: Free genetically modified organism. You can engineer the tumor, as they showed here. Then, you can use it as one ingredient or another. I will say a word about soy: for 5 years now, in the United States, we have been eating genetically engineered soy. The areas are only growing year by year, there are close to 300 million people who consume. No adverse effect has been reported. If someone here from the esteemed attendees will give me a clinical trial on such a scale, I would love to know about it.
Fazit Atlas Rabina:
There is a clinical trial in England of a 50% increase in soy allergens.
Aryeh Maoz:
We will enter into scientific discussions and I am ready to stand with you against any findings you bring. One last thing I want to say is about the marking. We talk about marking as a blanket thing. We are talking about GMF - genetically modified free. Imagine that instead of the word "kosher" they would write "not kosher" on all the food we eat. In this matter we "dirty", we establish something that everything it is not - -
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
There are people in my party who would be happy about that. I don't, I only eat kosher.
Aryeh Maoz:
We are in favor of informative labeling. I was in England and I didn't bring the boxes here but I did a survey of all these things in the world. Write what is inside. It says this ketchup is made with GMF in tomatoes. OK. It should be written what is inside and not what is not.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
That's semantics, that's not the point.
Aryeh Maoz:
It is very important.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I'm not disrespecting. I also accept your argument, that it should be called modern food. The word genetically modified is scary. A week ago we talked here, in this room, about human cloning. In perception we are talking about the same thing.
Jamal Zahalka:
He took the English word and it is an accurate concept. He doesn't want to use the word engineering. There is engineering here. Genetically modified is genetic engineering. It is not modern.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
You want to say that it is a bit of a falsification of reality.
Aryeh Maoz:
As someone who is on the Committee for Transgenic Plants, our clients are not only the consumers, it is the entire nation of Israel. It includes farmers and industrialists and it includes anyone. Therefore, when you come and dictate to the public what they will eat, then we try somehow to balance these things.
A few words about the Committee for Transgenic Plants: We started on this topic much earlier. In the late 80s there was a preparatory committee and in the early 90s a main committee for transgenic plants was established. These days, at the beginning of the month, regulations were approved for us. I mean, we operate by virtue of regulations. This committee includes representatives of government ministries and public representatives and scientists.
The purpose of the regulations is control of research and supervision of genetically engineered plants and control of the import of genetically modified plant material. I mean, everything that is used for agricultural needs. We do not deal with the issue of food imports or food supervision. Sometimes we are shared and the chairman of the committee who is not there at the moment and I fill her place, is a member of the committee. Doctor Edna Levy.
Yedidya Gafni:
Every experiment of mine they have to approve. I can't do any experiment without their permission.
Aryeh Maoz:
We see around 100 research projects every year. To this day there are two products that have been approved for commercialization, one is listed here and the other is genetically engineered cotton. There is no production of genetically engineered plants for food in Israel. clear and smooth.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Import of transgenic plants is there?
Aryeh Maoz:
For research purposes, when it goes through all the things and on this Dr. Miriam Freund will elaborate. I'm talking about plants for agricultural needs.
Miriam Freund:
I am the deputy director of plant protection services of the Ministry of Agriculture. The regulations that Doctor Maoz referred to, their purpose is a bit broader than the anchoring of the committee. The committee is merely one of the tools that the regulations use. These regulations came to regulate basically all the experiments conducted in the country, on plants and microorganisms that are related to them and changes were made in the way of genetic engineering. I mean, the purpose of these regulations is much broader, because in this issue of genetically engineered plants, beyond their health aspect, they also have a very broad environmental aspect with very broad commercial implications.
For example, we are a very large seed producing country. Introducing genetically modified plants near fields where seeds are produced, it will simply invalidate all the production of the seeds in the country. That's why there are other aspects to it besides public health, which we really don't touch, we leave that to the Ministry of Health. But this regulation may actually regulate all the field experiments in Israel, which are conducted with plants and the commercialization of these plants as propagation material. The committee works through an advisory committee, which is the main committee for transgenic plants and this is essentially the scientific tool of these regulations, to give advice regarding the tightening or easing of the experiments that are being conducted, the distances that fields should be placed and things like that. The committee does not stand on its own but within the framework of the regulations.
Regarding the registration in Israel, commercialization, as it was said here, there are about 120 supervised trials today that are being conducted in Israel at various levels. These experiments are conducted in greenhouses in closed places, where the attention is paid to things that are less well known or that are more dangerous. Or in the open fields, where the environmental pollution can be greater and which we want to prevent and see that there really is no risk. In terms of commercialization, apart from something that Dr. Gafni mentioned, the carnation, which also had a gene injected into it to extend its shelf life and a carnation into which colors from petunia were injected to change its colors, nothing is commercially registered in Israel as a genetically modified plant.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Thanks. I want to hear from the younger generation, because at least according to your age, I know you are against it. was i wrong Are you not from the green trend?
Ami Ettinger:
I am from the Center for Environmental Thinking and Leadership and there I am the center of a project on genetically engineered products policy in an international comparison. I want to say that the labeling of genetically engineered food products is not related to the potential benefit or harm, as presented by my friend Gafni, but to the basic principle of the public's right to know and make decisions for themselves.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I think there is no dispute about that, right?
spokesman:
It's not entirely accurate. I would define informative rather than discriminatory marking.
Ami Ettinger:
To put things in their accuracy, it should be remembered that in the European Union there has been a moratorium on the introduction of new engineered products to the market for 5 years and that the manufacturers there are working to get the strict regulations accepted, as the representative of the Ministry of Health mentioned, in order to bring an end to the moratorium. With us, the situation is exactly the opposite. They delay the adoption of regulations. There they work for the acceptance of the regulations.
Regarding the conflict with the United States, there is no reason for Israel to support the American approach, not only in terms of the large agricultural export market, the European Union, but also due to the relative advantage of the United States in the long term, in a very small country like the State of Israel, the significance of this could reach elimination Agriculture in general, as a competitive industry - -
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I did not understand the argument.
Ami Ettinger:
Contrary to the position presented by Professor Gafni, it is about lowering costs and this is something that is very expensive in terms of inputs, it is only possible in very intensive agriculture. These seeds, with the patent, are more expensive than the price with the inputs of the pesticides and this can only be sustained by intensification of growing in very large volumes, which is not possible in Israel and this lowers the marginal cost per unit.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
You heard that we sell seeds all over the world.
Yedidya Gafni:
I think your knowledge of the agricultural institution is 0. You are just saying things that are completely wrong. You are simply wrong. Intensification in Israel is very high.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I think our only chance to compete is precisely because we don't have the quantity, it's only in uniqueness and uniqueness and technology.
Yedidya Gafni:
Just understand what this is about, you don't understand...
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I ask... you will later summarize and you will have a chance to answer.
Ami Ettinger:
I will try to get to the main points: even in the United States, which accepts the principle of substantial equivalent, the approval of the crops, the approval procedure, it includes extending the risk to human health for every GMO that is released. He underwent a risk assessment, which does not happen here. The regulations of the Ministry of Agriculture in Israel do not include experiments with genetically engineered microorganisms in the food industry, and I would be happy to know who is responsible for supervising experiments with organisms that are not related to the plant, for example: environmental bacteria, bacteria that are not pathogenic or symbiotic to the plant. I would like to know if the Ministry of the Environment participates in this risk assessment. I would like to know if the regulations include all the experiments that are carried out in Israel and I would like to refer to the "Remedia" case, which in my opinion proves that it is not enough to rely on control processes, which are devoid of transparency and to ask if the science committee can inspect and act transparently and can accept the proposed regulations for discussion in the committee before they are accepted , to open them up for public discussion?
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
We will definitely do it, after we receive the answer from the Ministry of Taxation. Knesset member Ofir Pines, please.
Ofir Pins-Paz:
As someone who represents the public here, along with the other members of the Knesset, I am beginning to see that there is a very big change in my personal kitchen. There is less and less regular food and more and more boxed food. At breakfast, I have two or three bottles next to me. My wife doesn't take anything, I have to ask her why. Next to my children, there are other boxes and we eat more of these things than bread, cottage cheese, vegetables and cows.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Which boxes? cornflakes?
Ofir Pins-Paz:
No, I'm not talking about cornflakes. It certainly is. I'm talking about such a vitamin, another food supplement. Whoever comes to these stores today, it is one of the most prosperous businesses in the country. You can do "shopping" in these stores today, more than in any supermarket in Israel. The prices are sky high. What are you promised? They tell you: Why should you take the whole cow for a cup of milk? We give you the healthy things in food, all the "junk food" or the fattening food or the fats or the cholesterol, and we distill the healthy food from the unhealthy food for you. Who wouldn't want to buy that? Those who have the purchasing power will buy it.
This week I looked at the products I put in my body and I said to myself: what is this thing? I don't even understand what it is, I don't understand what it says. I remember buying something against something, but I forgot what the something against it was. Nothing is written on the box. It says what it contains, but I don't remember what it is. There is a huge market here and tremendous development. I don't know who supervises him. I think there is room for manipulation from here until a new announcement to the public. There is an ability to make huge money here. It's semi-healthy, and semi-nutritional, and semi-all sorts of things. I ask ourselves, who represents the consumer there and tell him: it's a bluff and it's serious and it's worthwhile and it's not? Who oversees these things? One day we will open these boxes and all kinds of vitamins will be missing and we will be asked where we were, and why we didn't do what happened and how we didn't understand? Then they will say that they are importers at all and they don't know it and it has nothing to do with them and it was brought by someone and it is not their responsibility.
I think the state should find the proper address and make it possible to get the right tools, to allow us, the consumer public, to know better what we are buying. Second, to be sure that what we are buying is really what it says we are buying, and not some kind of fraud, forgery or something of that nature.
Jamal Zahalka:
I want to continue in the same spirit what Knesset Member Pines said: the situation is that we have lost the taste of life, the taste of the tomato. The tomato has no taste, I already long for the old taste and am looking all over the country for someone who has a Baldi tomato. Tomatoes have no taste. It's not the tomato of old and it's not nostalgia, it's real. We miss the times when the watermelon was round and had seeds in it. The cucumber is not the same cucumber. Its smell, the fragrance of the cucumbers is lost to us. The same goes for cows. There are exceptions. That is, sometimes there are new products that taste reasonable or good. But the rule is that things have become pointless.
Aryeh Maoz:
With all due respect to the members of the Knesset, the subject of the discussion is genetically engineered food.
Jamal Zahalka:
I understand very well, sir. I understand this subject a little more than you think, so don't make that comment, it's unnecessary. The issue raised here is the phase shift. Here we are talking about interbreeding, and now, in recent years, genetic engineering is increasing more and more and I don't know where it will lead. This is a new world, and naturally the first thing, my first reaction is that this subject should be approached with the utmost caution.
Europeans are not stupid. Why is Europe against it? An entire continent is against it. The Americans, I personally think that trusting the Europeans or the Americans in such matters, I go more for the Europeans, for reasons – –
spokesman:
It's connoisseurship.
Jamal Zahalka:
Right. The American trend is to rule the lack of taste over Europe. Because of this there was almost a popular uprising in France. Huge demonstrations by the farmers, because of the issue of the American takeover and the domination of the American tastelessness over the French cuisine. That the United States has economic interests – –
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Also for Europeans, so that there will be no misunderstandings.
Jamal Zahalka:
I know the Europeans have economic interests. But there are economic interests that cause such results and there are economic interests that cause other results. It is not a curse of economic interests. There are predatory economic interests that pay no attention to anything, and there are economic interests that take into account the cultural context of Europe. By the way, the largest agricultural import is from the United States. It seems to me that Israel imports more than a billion dollars a year in American agricultural products and exports 165 million there. The numbers are not exact but this is the proportion.
Miriam Freund:
Agricultural imports are very small in general.
Jamal Zahalka:
But most of it is from the United States.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
As far as I know, corn and soy is like that.
Jamal Zahalka:
Therefore, I do not think that the public in Israel should be the first. I am against stopping scientific research, but for the scientific products to be sold in the United States. Do what you want with the Volcanic Institute and sell it to the Americans. It works like this. Which company in Israel will you buy if there are huge investments? We do not want the public in Israel to be the guinea pigs of the Americans. That's what I want. They will try 20 years in America, and then we will bring it here. without stopping scientific research.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Thanks.
Ronen Regev-Kabir:
I am from the Consumer Council. I want to start with a point that was brought up here before and it seems as if there is agreement on it, but in practice it is not true. The basic question regarding the discovery of whether or not modification or genetic engineering will be done, no matter how we define it at the moment, may be theoretically undisputed, but in practice, this discovery is not regulated. This is something that has been delayed for years. So it is not correct to say that there is no dispute, because factually - -
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
No, there is no dispute that there should be full disclosure to each and every one of us in the State of Israel regarding what he eats. There is no dispute about that.
Ronen Regev-Kabir:
I want to reinforce one basic thing, which is our position on this issue, that beyond all the scientific research debates, there is a question of the consumer's autonomy over the products he chooses or does not choose to buy. There is no doubt at all that there is a lot of public interest. Just looking from the side at the battle of the stalwarts between Europe and the United States, you can see that there are many, many consumers for whom this information is essential information and this could also be for religious reasons.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
As we heard from Knesset member Pines, people are looking for health food, organic food of one kind or another.
Ranan Regev-Kabir:
Right. And in contrast to Europe, where the situation is that as long as the regulation has not been made regarding how the discovery will be carried out and for what exactly, there is no possibility or the possibility is blocked in most things to use products or raw materials that have undergone genetic engineering. In Israel, at the moment the situation is broken and therefore - -
Muhammad Bracha:
Note: It is forbidden to comment on a member of the Knesset. Member of Knesset Zahalka is a doctor of pharmacy and specializes in medicinal plants. The comment was cheeky. You, as the head of the yeshiva, should have defended the speaker, who understands many times more than the person who spoke. You should have stood by the Knesset member's side.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I thank you for the comment.
Aryeh Maoz:
I am ready to apologize.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Earlier, a similar comment was made here and I asked to stop. Everyone knows what they know and I ask. I thank you for the comment, because I definitely had to comment and I meant to say that we have a member of the science committee here who is a doctor. A large part of the members of the science committee are doctors and we have professors and certainly professionals in their field. I ask to be treated with due respect.
Ronan Segev-Kabir:
I want to raise a point that is a little deeper: the installation is not only about a binary question to mark or not to mark. A very large part of the debates surrounding this matter, and they are also a central part of the debates between Europe and the United States, is what exactly to mark and what to define as a product that involves the involvement of genetic engineering in its production and there is for example - -
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Do you have a concrete proposal, what should we do here?
Ronan Segev-Kabir:
We join the proposal to bring the regulation to a discussion in this forum and some kind of criticism, before it is passed for final approval after an official position is received from all the relevant parties. In this context, there are several points we would like to raise. In principle, I would say that one issue as an example, what is the minimum amount of genetically engineered components or modified components that are inside the product, should be defined as a product that has undergone genetic engineering. In our opinion, in this matter, a threshold should be set by the experts, which should be low enough to prevent the deliberate use, even of components within the production process that are not so much traced after that, but does allow a product that was led alongside a genetically engineered product and took the reasonable actions to prevent leak – –
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
I understand that this reservation exists in the proposed regulations.
Ofra Havkin:
Regarding these regulations, at the time of writing this proposal and the drafts, there was a representative of the Consumer Council on the committee. These things were discussed and they were acceptable. Now change a representative, because you had an exchange, but of course there is a threshold here and it must be realistic. It must be a threshold that can be tested in the laboratory. If we write a threshold that is supposedly better but no one can test it, then there is no point in writing it.
Yedidya Gafni:
Two very short comments: I have known Mr. Ettinger since yesterday, we have already been together and I apologize if my words were insulting. What I wanted to say is the matter itself, telling someone that he doesn't know may sound insulting, but I wanted to say that Israeli agriculture is very intensive. The point I wanted to talk about is about cotton. Israel, per unit area, is the largest producer of cotton in the world. I emphasize, per unit area. I mean, we do manage to achieve very intensive agricultural achievements. Regarding what you said, that we will sell the scientific developments, I think this is a very important point. It should be remembered that the science behind this, its face is not necessarily the State of Israel. We are a small country. Our ability scientifically to promote these things, also as scientific products, as you really said and to sell this knowledge, is a very important issue.
Ofir Pins-Paz:
What is the appeal of the product of genetic engineering?
Yedidya Gafni:
I gave some examples before, but I will give you one, because you touched on things that happen at your home, on the table. For example: You rightly brought up this matter that the food lost its taste. It has lost its taste because of the way you get the food home. Pick it too early. I uploaded it before. This is due to wanting to maintain a shelf life. You can extend the shelf life in another way and you will get it with a ballad taste. it is possible Come to me, I'll give you delicious tomatoes. The vitamins will be the same vitamins. The subject of vitamins does not have to come in capsules, it can come in the plant itself.
Yair Sheeran:
3 points in brief: First, I think it is not entirely fair to dump everything on one office. As mentioned, the Ministry of Industry was not a member of the committee. We were added there only recently, at our request. And precisely in our office, apparently, there has recently been a rethinking. If there is something a bit dynamic here between the government ministries - -
Ofra Havkin:
But the proposed regulations were sent in September 2001.
Yair Sheeran:
It's not just about me. I see a document here, which came out after a meeting with the Ministry of Health. It says that an updated version document was delivered on 18.6.03/XNUMX/XNUMX. I don't want to engage in an exchange of blame. What I want to say is that it seems to me that the Ministry of Industry and Trade has been rethinking the issue in recent months.
Two more comments that have a more commercial tone: First, in terms of profit potential for Israel, the things that are more knowledge-intensive, whether it is in the fields of high-tech or whether it is in the fields of agriculture, are usually where there is good economic potential for Israel. I mean, I don't want to comment here on whether we are better off without genetically modified food or with such food. Life in the meantime proves that things that are based on knowledge, whether it is in traditional industries or whether it is in more advanced industries, usually here is our growth potential and our economic profit, something that should be taken into account.
One last point: without harming, God forbid, the health and other considerations that are very, very important, it is very important to understand that in this conflict or in the dispute between the United States and the European Community, there are many, many commercial considerations. It is important to understand that those who produce in the form of genetic engineering can bring to the market a product that looks much better, is cheaper, does not need to be sprayed and saves costs. The yield percentage of the crop is greater. I assume, and there is such a claim among the bodies involved, that beyond health considerations there are also many commercial considerations here. The United States is a little more advanced than other countries in the world in the development of genetically modified varieties, and because of this, without thinking about whether it is healthy or not, it has created a competitive advantage. When the United States and the European Community decide their positions on this issue, they are also influenced by such things.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
Certainly the debate is business and not just purely ideological.
Miriam Freund:
In response to what the regulations cover: they cover all the experiments conducted in Israel, starting from the laboratory phase to the field phase. We require that any propagating material we release be marked propagating material. If it is genetically engineered, it is labeled as such.
Avi Levy:
I would like to raise an issue that has not been mentioned here in any way: in most of the stages where the issue is brought up, usually some kind of rivalry between environmentalists and scientists is presented, which does not exist in any way whatsoever. We are definitely in favor of research and development and in favor of science in general and specifically in the matter of genetic engineering. The question asked here, regarding the research resources that are directed to development versus the research resources that are directed to risk assessment.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
The Ministry of Health and Agriculture and the Ministry of Taxation should balance these things.
Knesset member Doctor Zahalka, please. I addressed the Speaker of the Knesset, and I requested that any formal appeal to a member of the Knesset who also has an academic degree, according to the protocol, be with his academic degree as well. I think that if we had done it and respected it in a formal way, there would not have been this problem. Please, Doctor Zahalka.
Jamal Zahalka:
I want to pose the dilemma that we will have to discuss: in agriculture, many poisons, pesticides are used, in very large quantities. There are now regulations, and even after the regulations for methyl iodide and methyl bromide, there will still be a lot left. People keep telling you that their tomato is full of poisons. It is on the one hand. You, in order to get high production, either you spray a lot, or you do genetic engineering to produce disease-resistant varieties. There is also a problem here and there is also a problem here. We will have to discuss this issue and I think that in the end some factor is needed and I think it is the duty of the Ministry of Health more than any other ministry to ensure that its face is the face of the public and the interest of the public, and not commercial interests or pressure groups like the farmers. Not of industry and trade and not of export.
Ofir Pins-Paz:
Is Remedia's milk substitute genetic engineering?
Speakers:
No.
Ofir Pins-Paz:
Why not?
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
It's industrial. Explain at the beginning what genetic engineering actually is. I mentioned that the tragedy of "Remedy" made us bring up the issue.
Jamal Zahalka:
If there was genetically modified soy, this problem would not exist. The genetically modified soy has more vitamin B.
Avi Levy:
If we continue to rely only on trade and the trade association to take care of our problems, then we may end up in situations like this again and again.
Ofra Havkin:
This is not a good example.
Chairman Meli Polishuk-Bloch:
This is in dispute, because there is a serious and very serious omission here, but it is not necessarily because someone tried to save something. Therefore, we will not draw wrong conclusions.
I would like to conclude by saying that we have no dispute that the public has the right to know and it is our duty to ensure that the public knows what they are putting in their mouths and what food they are eating. As we heard from members of the Knesset and others, today there is organic food and people switch to eating it, because they really want the healthier food. People are definitely aware of what food they eat. We need to help them, so that they get the knowledge and information about what they are putting in their mouths. If it is engineered, industrialized, organic or natural.
Secondly, the expansion of knowledge should not only be on the Internet, but you must publish leaflets and distribute them to the public. I know it costs money.
Third thing: installing regulations. I ask that we check with you in mid-December and it seems that there is an answer, and then in a month we will ask you to give us the proposal of principles, because here is the draft, for the regulations regarding genetically modified food, in order to bring this thing closer to completion. Also, we are definitely in favor of encouraging technology in agriculture and industry, which is reflected in food. We are definitely in favor of there being no misunderstandings, because it can also improve quality, as we understood from the scholars here. So we will not say: everything that is the fruit of technology or the fruit of scientific development is necessarily bad and everything that comes from nature is necessarily great. We have to check everything individually and everything in thinking before doing and not done and heard. First we will think, first we will learn and then we will do. I congratulate all of you who came. Thank you.
He knew genetic engineering - plants
Transgenic plants - the fear and the necessity. My article in Galileo
Another response from Galileo to Avi Blizovsky's article - transgenic plants - the fear and the necessity - by Shahar Dolev
https://www.hayadan.org.il/BuildaGate4/general2/data_card.php?Cat=~~~711686571~~~27&SiteName=hayadan
