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The evolutionary leap from fins to legs was surprisingly simple

The evolution of the limbs was considered to have opened up a whole new world of possibilities for the tetrapods and therefore the researchers decided to examine how significant the evolutionary transition from fish to tetrapods was by analyzing a variety of skeletons containing fins or legs from ancient times and comparing the anatomical diversity within each group

An albino salamander from Mexico. Shows characteristics of the first embryos from land to sea. From Magasin Pittoresque 1878. Photo: shutterstock
An albino salamander from Mexico. Shows characteristics of the first embryos from land to sea. From Magasin Pittoresque 1878. Photo: shutterstock

New research reveals that the limbs of the first vertebrates to walk on all fours evolved 360 million years ago, through a very slight structural change in the fins of their sea-dwelling relatives. The new finding overturned the long-standing theory that the origin of the legs of tetrapods drove an increase in the anatomical diversity of their skeleton.

The research was led by Dr. Marcelo Rota from the School of Life Sciences at Lincoln University and Prof. Matthew Willis from the Milner Center for Evolution at Beth University in the UK. The researchers found that the first fish and tetrapods had a similar level of development of anatomical diversity within the fins and legs, despite the fact that their skeletons were formed in different ways.
The study published in the journal Palaeontology challenges several assumptions about evolution. In general, it is expected that when creatures develop a new trait - a process known as "key invention" that allows them to take advantage of a new environment, the rate of evolution and diversity will increase. This is what is estimated to have happened when the birds evolved from the dinosaurs, and in the most well-known case - the transition from fish with gills to tetrapods with legs.

The evolution of the limbs was considered to have opened up a whole new world of possibilities for the tetrapods and therefore the researchers decided to examine how significant the evolutionary transition from fish to tetrapods was by analyzing a variety of skeletons containing fins or legs from ancient times.

Ambystoma mexicanum - fish or amphibian?. Photo: shutterstock
Ambystoma mexicanum – fish or amphibian?. Photo: shutterstock

Dr. Rota said: "Our work tested how quickly the first leg vertebrae erupted and developed into new skeletal structures. We can expect that the early tetrapods developed limbs that were more complex and varied than the fins of their ancestors. Despite this, the difference in the variety of features between the fins and the legs of the land vertebrates that evolved from fish is not significantly different.
Until now, scientists suspected that biomechanical functions performed by the fins were responsible for the change, even though these ancestors lived exclusively in water.
Prof. Matthew Wills explains: "Usually when organisms have developed traits that allow them to colonize fundamentally new environments, such as the transition from sea to land, this should trigger rapid evolutionary diversification. Our study challenged this assumption and showed that, at least in the case of the evolution of early tetrapods, these major innovations did not quickly lead to anatomical diversity."
"First, the legs evolved to fulfill new functions because they have to carry the weight of the body and allow the animal to walk. Perhaps these dual requirements limited the number of ways in which these first legs could function and develop, thus limiting the variety of their variation."
In conclusion, Dr. Rota says: "This research has far-reaching implications for the analysis of biological systems in the past and present. The question is whether the first tetrapods behaved differently from other creatures. If so, it is even more fascinating and challenging. It is more likely that we will have to update our concept of evolutionary success because in some cases it took many millions of years for the key innovations to diversify.

130 תגובות

  1. Maya / K.

    Exactly - the sentence can be explained, but it turns out ugly.

    Now - can someone explain the phrase buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo?
    Without searching on Google!!!
    This is a legal sentence in English….

  2. I couldn't find a definitive answer on Wikipedia.
    It's in the same area from what I understand.
    If there is anything that makes sense, I would appreciate a definite answer.
    (Maybe after all Akkadian is the language of our ancestors?
    This gives additional meaning to the Akkadian translation. Maybe we will revive the language of our ancestors?

  3. K.
    This clarifies the intention, no doubt, but it only gives the simile without the simile. I mean, it's not a literal translation.
    A literal translation would simply turn out not pretty: "A classic is something that everyone wants to have on their resume as having been read, but no one wants to read." somewhat awkward.

  4. A.
    There is indeed a partial phonetic similarity between the word Akkadian and the word Kasdim, but if there is a connection between them I don't think so, for more information check on Wikipedia. As far as I know the Akkadian language predates the Chaldeans but I am not sure

  5. Israel Shapira
    kadima bitar , yalla bitar. As a former kibbutznik and as someone who grew up on grandfather Trotsky's lap, write this in Cyrillic letters, including what you wrote to me.

  6. Miracles
    If you remember that, you don't need a computer, Google or Wikipedia. I will allow myself to get out of my mind. Chapter XNUMX in the book of Luke in the New Testament, try to quote it by heart without opening the New Testament and translating it into Akkadian.

  7. Miracles
    clearly impossible. I remember that in the movie Mary Poppins the name of one of the songs is the length of exile. You must know him. And can it be translated? As a compromise proposal where we will learn Esperanto and perhaps come to Zion Goel.

  8. Miracles
    clearly impossible. I remember that in the movie Mary Poppins the name of one of the songs is the length of exile. You must know him. And can it be translated? As a compromise proposal where we will learn Esperanto and perhaps come to Zion Goel.

  9. I didn't know that outside the box was ultra-Orthodox. I thought national religious.
    Rabbi Kook Gadel is the spiritual father of religious Zionism (he himself was ultra-Orthodox in everything) that is why ultra-Orthodox do not accept him and his rulings (I hope you distinguish between types of religious people. I have already met some for whom "everything is the same") In any case, there are many Quotes from other rabbis. But in general, if he is really ultra-orthodox, it will be much more difficult to convince him.

  10. Miracles
    I'm not sure I'll make it. Something will be lost in translation. As a Yiddish speaker I know that translation from Yiddish to Hebrew does not always get lost. It is the music of the language, its aroma. Language is also a world of content, a world of feelings. A world of culture and also slang.

  11. Life
    That's not where the problem is 🙂 Look at "something everyone wants to have read". How do you translate it into Hebrew?

  12. Miracles
    I have the impression that the word classic belongs to that group of words that cannot be translated into Hebrew. Kind of reminds me associatively of a translation I did years ago. In the same work I did someone wrote The Negev Reserve.
    After further reading I realized that he meant Kibbutz Mishmar HaNegev.. Well, how does it look or rather sound.

  13. Life
    I know there are differences of opinion, but I strongly believe in his approach. Steven Pinker is a psychologist and language expert. He has many books - I read in English The Language Instinct, How the Mind Works, The Stuff of Thought. He clarifies Chomsky's approach and is very convincing.

    The reference in the quote is the meaning of "classic book". Try to translate the quote into Hebrew - I couldn't.

  14. Miracles
    A joke from the 70s
    To test a computer they said translate the following sentence into Russian - far from sight far from heart For the purpose of testing they told him to translate the sentence back into English his answer was invisible idiot. I remember Chomsky, I read his stuff. As far as I know today, there are differences of opinion about his linguistic doctrine. Who is Pinker? Can you give me links to his stuff? As for Mark Twain, what is meant by a classic book? For a classical piece of music? For a classic painting? When it is said about a person that what he does is classical for him, what does it mean in terms of the computer? In music there are different styles for example jazz music, Hasidic music and much more. This also needs to be set to the computer. My knowledge of computers is general, but in my understanding a computer cannot reach the linguistic subtleties of humans.

  15. A',

    But before you said exactly the opposite:

    "You'll be surprised how much influence the link you sent on "outside the box" can have. If there are great rabbis who accept the evolution, it will affect him more than a whole number with charged"

    (Outside the boxes is ultra-orthodox if you don't know 🙂 )

  16. Life
    There is a basic theorem in computer science that says that if an algorithm can be written in one language, then it can be written in any language (under conditions that are not fundamental for our purposes). According to Chomsky's theory of universal grammar (and Pinker today) the only essential difference between human languages ​​is the vocabulary. Therefore - if we define enough concepts in Akkadian, then we can write the book in Akkadian as well.

    Try translating Mark Twain's sentence into Hebrew:
    "a classic is something everyone wants to have read and no one wants to read".

  17. Miracles
    Does the experiment I proposed to you in linguistics stand up? I understand that you have a lot of knowledge in aeronautical engineering. Try at most half an hour of library work. The everyday word betrayal comes from Akkadian. Put the dagger under the clothes so that they don't see it. Take this example as a basis.

  18. I just hope you didn't tell the ultra-Orthodox that Rabbi Kook accepted evolution? It will only make them more resistant.

  19. A',

    You too will be surprised how many believers I have spoken to (including well-known rabbis) who are well aware of the fact that Rabbi Kook and other rabbis accepted evolution, yet they refused to accept it and insisted that the world was created in 6 days and that humans and animals were created as they are.

    Understand, when faith is blind no logic will help. To them, the Torah is the only truth, and if it says black, then even if you wave a white sheet in front of their eyes, they will insist that it is black.

    The document I linked to is one of the best summaries I've read on the subject of evolution. I don't know if out of the box has already looked at him but I hope he is at least busy reading the book ("Why evolution is true") and enjoying the reading.

  20. rival
    Think about an alien culture that wants to communicate with us. If she is much more advanced then she will be in the same situation that Chaim describes.
    Think what a poor God who tried to communicate with maybe we understand why he failed 🙂

  21. Creating an English-Akkadian dictionary is understandable, it can be useful for researching an ancient culture, but translating a Cessna aircraft manufacturer's book into Akkadian? I don't think there will be that much demand for it.

  22. Miracles
    I agree with you more than one hundred percent and at the same time it is worth a try. Perhaps it will be possible to learn something about the development of languages ​​from this. I'll give you a little challenge. Years ago I saw an ancient Egyptian English dictionary and I regret not purchasing it. You will probably find such a dictionary at the university. Now take a number of two or three items such as cockpit and back burner and try based on words you find in the dictionary to build matching words. I'm sure it won't take you long. Treat this as an intellectual exercise. Food for thought.
    A few years ago, after 90 years of decoding work, a complete English-Akkadian dictionary was built. If the subject starts to tickle your fancy, submit a proposal for a thesis (which is equivalent to a doctorate) in which you will build a manufacturer's book of a Cessna plane for Akkadian. I deliberately took a Cessna plane because its systems are not as complex as a fighter plane for example. If you adopt this idea, you will be the pioneer in the field of translating modern engineering literature into ancient languages. I will go one step further, following this work you will be invited to lectures and opening such classes, for example at MIT. Could be interesting? .

  23. Miracles
    Half joke half serious. I understand that the aviation field is familiar to you. I asked if anyone tried to translate a Phantom manufacturer's book into Akkadian or ancient Egyptian, for example? It can be fascinating and even worth a thesis in linguistics.

  24. Finally.
    1. Sorry for the mistake in the name (I have a mild learning disability)
    2. I didn't think you stopped being an atheist?
    3. You will be surprised how much influence the link you sent on "outside the box" can have. If there are great rabbis who accept the evolution it will affect him more than a whole number with charges.
    Regarding the stars, it sounds a bit weak to me: a. According to what I once heard, the planet Hema was previously identified as two separate planets (the second was called Apollo)
    Regarding the months, it is known that the "Hebrew" months are the names of the Babylonian months. These names appear in the Bible only after the Babylonian exile. Tammuz, for example, is the name of a god that is also mentioned in the Bible as idolatry. Every religious person should know this if they are not completely ignorant.

  25. Haim Mazar
    What I wrote is from Hanuma Elish, from Wikipedia. Maybe they are wrong...
    And regarding the names of the months - I don't think there is any connection. July and August are two emperors. September to December is 7, 8, 9, 10. It's already half of the calendar 🙂

  26. bio,

    It's a shame that you're trying to confuse the outsider with arguments that have long been disproved, and even before he's finished reading the book, it's not pretty. Evolution is indeed a fact and the fossil you mentioned really does not contradict it, but I have no interest in entering into a discussion on the subject with you now. If you really want to, search for the answer on Google.

  27. A',

    1. My name is a rival and will not yield.

    2. Personally, I actually think that there is a big contradiction between religion and science, but I brought the link only to show him that there are believers (moderate ones like you, or like Rabbi Kook) who are willing to accept evolution and that it does not contradict their faith, you know they find an excuse for every contradiction .

    3. In my opinion, this is a fascinating document, which presents the evidence for evolution in a very concise and interesting way, but I am very skeptical about the possibility that this document or the book he is currently reading will change his mind about the subject. Devout believers of the "outside the box" type insist that every word written in the Torah is the only truth, and anything that contradicts this is a lie for them.

    I wish you would die.

  28. Miracles
    The Babylonians did rest once a week but for completely different reasons. According to them, the seventh day is considered a day of bad luck, so they preferred not to work on this day. You are probably confusing it with the Egyptian Sabbath. The Egyptians did not work every tenth day.
    As for the calendar, the names of the months phonetically are one for one almost identical to the names of the months in Hebrew.

  29. Miracles
    It is difficult to say that man's goal is to serve God in Judaism, because unlike the Babylonian myth where the gods need sacrifices to eat, God is not dependent on man and does not need him. That is why moral behavior among people is more important to him than worship. It is written explicitly in the prophets. In fact, in Judaism they say that God created the world to benefit the creatures.
    I think this is progress
    To be clear, I have no interest in making you believe, only in extending Judaism more and disparaging it less.

  30. Yaniv
    I read a bit of your link (not all, however, 266 pages)
    I'm glad to see that you sent such a link (without thinking that it hurts your opinions?)
    Some time ago I had a debate in the comments about the attitude that should be taken towards those who oppose accepted theories for religious reasons. And if I remember correctly, even you didn't agree with me then.
    I personally have never felt the need for approval to accept the science or some crisis of faith from the science. But I think that if "outside the box" reads it in passing there is a good chance that he will change his mind about evolution. If such an approach (like yours) there is much more chance to one day introduce evolution into the curriculum.

  31. rival
    Thanks! I liked the idea of ​​the heavenly bodies - it's not just that there is Sunday, Monday, and maybe the other days as well.

  32. א
    I have no argument with you about the content. The Babylonian story is indeed intended to make Marduk the chief god, but it clearly tells that humans were created to serve the gods. Even in Judaism, we "worship God", so we have not strayed too far from the source.
    From what I could understand, the Babylonian story tells of a day of rest twice a month.
    So nice, the Jews rest one day a week instead of one day every two weeks, but don't forget that in most of the western world they rest two days a week (in Israel until recently it was only one day) - and in some parts of the world they already rest 5 days every two weeks 🙂

  33. Miracles
    What do you mean "deep", if you mean more details then yes the stories of the Torah are characterized by mnemonics, I know that. Because what I see as the main thing is the message, so the main thing is really unique. The section of the seven days is also, in my opinion, a parable intended to create a day of rest (this is in fact the reason for sitting in the Ten Commandments in "Deuteronomy"). Is the Babylonian myth also given a day of rest for workers and even slaves? Does the Babylonian myth also say that moral behavior precedes worship as it is written in the prophets? Wasn't the world also created in a struggle in the Babylonian myth?

  34. א
    I didn't talk about morality, and I accept that relative to the time, morality in the Torah is probably high.
    But - the Babylonian story is significantly deeper. In the Torah, it is entirely two chapters that contradict each other. The stories are really similar, and I don't think there is any doubt that the Genesis story is based on the Babylonian story.

    But small points, and do not affect my faith or yours. I think that what separates us is: the belief in the next world, the belief in the soul, and of course the belief in something that is not physical.

  35. Miracles
    The creation story in Genesis is very unique in its essence. Even if you find similarities in the details. (Certainly there are similar details as the story of Noah). Almost everywhere there is a similarity you will find a big difference in the depth of the story with a more moral statement in Judaism. Of course compared to the period. You can deny it if you want but the Jewish people had a role and a tremendous contribution to the development of the morals and spirit of the world. Even more than his contribution to science (which of course is also huge) of course it would not be fair to compare today's norm to thousands of years ago (thousands of years ago it was not possible to demand what is today) you can for example check the treatment of slaves. It is clear that today slavery is not moral in any way, but only in Judaism did the murder of a slave lead to punishment at all (in Judaism, murder is murder regardless of status) even maiming a slave is forbidden (and I am talking about a non-Jewish slave. A Jewish slave is more like an employee in his rights) if a master Cause the slave to be harmed, the slave would be freed automatically (this is the source of the phrase "go out with tooth and eye") You can also compare Hammurabi's laws to the Torah and see the moral gap. Over the years the Sages have also made sure to preserve the moral gap in their interpretation of the Torah, for example interpreting "a tooth for a tooth for an eye for an eye" (which may be that in a tribal society without a central government this is the most morally possible way to justice) as payment of financial compensation. And there are many more examples (also from the status of women which sages always made sure was higher than the time). In recent years there is really a problem because the pace at which it is done is slower.

  36. He understands that at least the Book of Genesis should be interpreted as a sermon and not as a literal one, which also makes sense.

  37. Out of the box,

    I don't want to interrupt your reading of the book (may I ask what page you reached? Just curious) but I would be happy if you would take a look for a few minutes and browse a bit through a fascinating document written by a believer, who understands that the words of the Torah, including the book of Genesis, are a sermon and not a simple one and do not contradict science and evolution:

    Recommended for everyone to read.

  38. א
    It is claimed that the creation story in the Torah is based on the Babylonian "Anuma Elish". In this story, the god Marduk is raised above the other gods. In this story, for example, "Abyss" is mentioned as the goddess of the sea, and even the concept of "Sabbath" (although there it is a month and not a week).
    Of course, this has nothing to do with the existence of God.

  39. outside the box
    First of all, I say that I am a religious and even traditional person.
    There is a book in your book called Job. It is an entire book that many rabbis agree is a parable from beginning to end. So why can't you accept that two chapters in Genesis are a parable. What's more, these two chapters have internal overlaps (in chapter XNUMX it is written male and female in Ram and in chapter XNUMX there is the story of the creation of the woman after the male and this is just one example) so that in any case the two chapters must be interpreted in the way of the "sermon". God also did not reveal in the Torah either New scientific knowledge for the Israelites (at least not explicitly hints you can find what you want) Why do you think God had to tell the Torah about evolution or the big bang. God could also explain how steel is made or tell that the earth revolves around the sun but chose not to, these are what the Sages called him "He spoke in the language of men" and in the Torah it is written "The sun came..." even though the sun did not move.
    The creation story comes to say that it was God who created the world and that, contrary to what was believed at that time, the world was not created in a struggle and that there is no force that competes with God. God did not come to teach science in the story of creation but to convey a message. so that you focus more on understanding the message instead of looking for clues to scientific theories. If God wanted to tell scientific theories in the Torah, he would have written them explicitly.

  40. Rival, it's a bit strange that you claim that evolution is a fact. Maybe you mean a variation (bacteria, dogs, etc.). But this is not evolution at the level of a family or class. Anyway, I also happened to read Prof. Coyne's book. The problem is that many of the claims made there are simply scientifically unfounded. One of them even concerns the current article. For example: Coyne claims to have found a transitional fossil that corresponds to the geological age of the development of the tetrapods. The problem is that a new fossil has shown that tetrapods already appear about 15 million years before the intermediate stage. Which is kind of like finding a person before monkeys appeared.

  41. Out of the box.
    So you yourself say that what is written in the Torah is not true? seriously?

    According to legend, two million left Egypt. A total of three million people lived in Egypt. In other words, more than half of the residents left the Straits overnight.
    And the Egyptians, who recorded every grain of wheat, did not write a word about it?

  42. Out of the box,

    The people of Israel and the holidays are proof of the Exodus story just as the Chinese people are proof that there were once flying dragons that spit fire.

    When will you understand that it is human nature to make up stories? When will you understand that a story does not prove that things really happened in reality?

  43. rival
    About the finger-sucked story I have a living, breathing proof called the People of Israel after one name whose name is Israel in a finger-sucked legend.. a living people that celebrates holidays with animals and a message that is passed down from generation to generation.
    Since I have not yet finished the book on evolution, I will refrain from commenting on the theories of evolution

  44. Ariel
    Just before Holy Saturday
    Certainly there is a possibility that they might have missed something... but who went and searched for an entire journey underground... and even if they did search, who said they would find what they missed three thousand years ago.

  45. A box, a gathering tribe? really? Are you telling me there's no way they missed something? Or was he dodging? When my class goes on field trips, it doesn't matter who collects, you will always see some wrapper of a snack or bottle that someone missed.

  46. Out of the box,

    You will already understand, the story of the Exodus from Egypt is a far-fetched story that never happened, a legend from beginning to end. Even if there are "maybes" in the scientific theories, their foundation is still a thousand times stronger and more solid than the legends you believe in.

    It's sad to see how blind a person can be.

    Did you see that?

  47. post Scriptum.
    It is understood that at the time of Mount Sinai there were several millions. After all, the Torah says this.. but throughout all the generations up to ours, the message was passed on no less than 600 thousand in a row.. The Bisli and the Bamba did not remain because if you had read the Torah you would have discovered that while you were walking in the middle of nowhere there was the Masaf tribe. who went after all the tribes and collected everything that fell on the way.. but what about you and this legend.. after all, there is no need to read.. the true creation of the Jewish people.. perhaps some theory full of olims is better

  48. to rival miracles, etc.
    There is an interesting article on the "Mezav Lakhlev" website. There is an evolutionary theory full of the word maybe. So maybe you will read there.. not to mention the following ones from the article above.. theory we said.?

  49. rival
    It says six hundred thousand men, not including women and children. That is - around two million people!
    And they didn't even leave one Bamba bag in every Chinese???

  50. Sucked. To the box.
    600,000 people? Is this what is written in the Torah? My book says something else.
    So challenge - check again!

  51. Out of the box,

    When you say "proven beyond doubt" what do you mean? The scientific consensus does not interest you. And in any case, there is no consensus as to whether the story of the Exodus is based on a real historical event. Six hundred thousand (!) people who left it sounds a bit excessive to me and there is nothing to talk about about Mount Sinai at all.. There is no evidence here, just a story.

  52. Out of the box,

    1. The article (in Science) does not state that a finished galaxy was found. It is written that the rate of creation of suns in it is high, and as mentioned, it is well explained in the lecture, and it also explains why this happens.

    2. "If it were written in the Torah of God that the animals in the world were created in an evolutionary way.. or in the big bang.. I would be with you all the way and with joy"

    But it is also not written in the Torah that there are kangaroos, and that there are atoms and electrons and this does not prevent you from accepting the fact that they exist, so why do you insist so much despite all the evidence to claim that evolution is bullshit?

    3. Did it occur to you that you were taught nonsense that is not true, that makes you blind and not accept reality?

  53. You need to prepare items for a holy Shabbat. And of course to finish the book that Riv referred me to on why evolution is true..
    Shabbat Shalom is with you

  54. rival
    You will be surprised how much I agree with you.. God is indeed able to do the evolution. As much as he can turn sea into land.. after all he is not limited. What to do that the same Creator reveals to us in the Torah he gave us that he did not do it that way. But to begin with he created in seven days of 24 hours the entire creation and since then at every moment he always takes care of the formation of a source of the entire universe with all the details of the details that there are.. including these three points... this is actually the meaning of the words limitless.
    If it were written in God's Torah that the animals in the world were created in an evolutionary way.. or in the big bang.. I would be with you all the way and with joy.

  55. hihil
    Everything that beat historic cakes. The same is true for the people of Israel as above at least since their entry into the land.. From the desert period we have written and also word-of-mouth testimony of at least six hundred thousand witnesses continuously without interruption that there was indeed a stand on Mount Sinai and the revelation of the Creator to the entire nation.. and if and as likely. Try to bring me biblical proof that there was a certain time when there was apparently no evidence of six hundred thousand.. This thing has already been ground from all directions in all forms.. until it has been proven beyond any doubt that even in that period of fifty years or less the message was conveyed by scriptures and by Six hundred thousand descendants of Israel. Until this day, which will soon be celebrated after Passover, the holiday of giving the Torah, as we know

  56. rival
    If I'm not mistaken, the video you sent me to is before the finished galaxy was found, isn't it... and that's why, in my opinion, in the article about finding the most distant galaxy in which stars are already ready... they explain to us how to re-assume that the stars were probably formed even faster... I think the video you sent refers to Ancient knowledge would not have disappeared from the astrophysicists, and despite all this, the article says that the stars were probably created at a greater speed.
    In addition to the fact that they were wrong about the size of a star in the solar system even though it was observed through a telescope. And it is a tiny distance compared to the distance of
    The enormity of distant galaxies..and the accumulation of data about that star was certainly greater than the accumulated data from the discovery of distant galaxies.
    Therefore, in these data that I uploaded...both the accuracy of the data and the latest discovery that was discovered after the above video confirm the existence of galaxies that are ready to begin with..
    And further and in addition to the fact that it is a world in the creation of the universe in view of all the accumulations of nebular galaxies etc. in their given state.

  57. "But when there is a scientific belief that stands in front of an absolute divine truth such as the way the world was created. Or evolution.. you still need to know that this is an opinion.. It's called speculative science..."

    And the imaginary God you believe in is not an opinion.. it's not a speculation... you're funny.

  58. "He who innovates in his goodness at every moment is always an act of Genesis.."

    Wow, your blindness never ceases to amaze, how you took an obscure sentence from the Torah and forcefully adapted it to reality... you know what, let me also try my hand at interpretations -

    I actually think that the verse clearly proves that the theory of evolution is correct, it shows us that God is constantly renewing the animals and nature and allows them to renew and develop from each other just as the theory of evolution claims.

    This is the true meaning.

  59. Out of the box,

    "And if this is the last discovery about the most distant galaxy that is actually finished..."

    You still haven't seen the rest of the lecture that you started watching ten minutes into it, right? Because there he explains exactly the opposite of what you wrote here, that the distant and young galaxies look disordered and full of large clumps (which later merge into the sun) which also corresponds to the result obtained in computer simulations, and which corresponds exactly to the big bang and to the fact that several billion years passed before the galaxies began to organize and take their shape the adult

    In the lecture, the lecturer also answers the question that appeared in the article here why the rate of creation of suns in a young galaxy is so fast, this is also explained and understandable to us.

  60. K
    I have never and never treated experimental science as a disadvantage, on the contrary, it is a tremendous advantage given to man and an enormous ability. More than that, as science progresses, it takes another step forward to understand the infinite..if it is from the universe and I am not talking about the theory..but about the measurements that were done in a practical way.. and every time you reach deeper into the spaces, you discover new details that you didn't imagine. If it is several years ago when they discovered that there is a huge amount of galaxies that are already ready at huge distances that they thought would actually be at the beginning of their formation... and if this is the latest discovery about the most distant galaxy that is actually finished... these details only lead to the fact that everything was created ready from the beginning... or another detail Simple and wonderful that science reaches and searches for is the elusive primary particle, the Higgs particle on which all matter in the world is based, a particle that appears and disappears in the blink of an eye, a teacher of the formation of all the details of the world at every moment, always from a thousand points. In the end it leads to the conclusion written in the prayer "He who renews with his goodness in every moment is always an act of Genesis... The Internet itself is a wonderful scientific discovery that unites the whole world in the written direction that everyone will speak one language. There is no doubt that experimental science is increasing and taking giant steps towards the goal of discovering the unity that exists in the universe from one Creator.
    Even in global issues between humans, we see before our eyes the beginning of a war between Islam and Christianity.. what the prophets of the sages said thousands of years ago.. we see the comparison of a sheep and seventy wolves, how the wolves, that is, the haters of Israel, kill each other when the weapons that are meant to be directed at Our people are directed towards themselves as in the verse "Their sword shall come into their hearts"
    Science as it is today is wonderful, including medical science, thanks to which time and length and the quality of life increase... something that is also mentioned in the words of the sages and the prophets. And to eternal life as there are futurists who talk about it.. a reality in which the entire economic system reaches the state of delicacies found as dirt. As Maimonides brings over 800 years ago. All of this comes from the wonderful power of scientific progress.. only a fool would not appreciate the enormous good he receives from today's science.. and only a greater fool does not see where it leads..
    But when there is a scientific opinion that stands in front of an absolute truth, like the way the world was created. Or evolution.. you still need to know that it is an opinion.. it is called speculative science.. within which there are two types.. where one has a greater probability and the second has a probability of being right that is very far from actual information..

  61. Miracles,

    According to what I understand, at least four scientific experiments are described in the Bible, one of them is related to Noah 🙂

  62. This is just the tip of the iceberg:

    And how lucky we are to have science-based medicine that will save the laborers from the many dangers inherent in this barbaric ritual, including life-threatening bleeding. By the way, it is interesting that the chance of complications is much higher if the operator is a sap with a Torah education compared to a doctor with a science-based medical education. And contrary to your heart's desire, there is no fundamental difference in the way you arrive at established (and often useful) knowledge in the natural sciences, including the theory of evolution and cosmology. In all of them the same principles of the scientific method are used and in all of them it is a process of trial and error in which we adjust to better and more complete explanations which increase our understanding of how things happen in the world and why they happen the way they do, and also enable the development of useful technologies based on this understanding. The thought, as expressed in your response, as if this tuning process is a defect of the scientific process and precisely of evolution (?!) reflects a lack of understanding and ignorance about how scientists work. Expressing such a view while you are one of those who especially enjoy the abundance achieved through scientific discoveries is nothing less than pointing and good coercion, spitting in the well from which you drink. I implore you to stop this despicable behavior.

    Regarding the Torah, I don't understand what you want to say. If it is impossible to use the Torah to obtain useful knowledge, one that can be translated into reliable technology or medicine, then there is no difference between it and the letters A and B (or any set of letters in any language) because even in them everything that can be expressed is already embodied in the content. The gross example you gave is pathetic. Any such connection made in retrospect is in terms of marking the target around the arrow, and when the connection is vague as in this example it is simply poor and completely unusable. Since you claim that relevant knowledge exists in the Torah, such as a preventive medicine for the terrible side effects resulting from infection with the Zika virus, please persuade your rabbis to invest effort in this direction. If you think it's more important to find a cure for one of the many types of cancer, it's really a crime not to try to find this knowledge, and who is best suited for this task if not the smart students? Surely if enough resources are directed, say ten large yeshiva, to this important task, you will soon find a cure, isn't this a worthy goal? After all, he who saves one soul in Israel is as if he saved the whole world. Think what kind of public relations this would do to the religion, it would be possible to throw all the pans (B. B. Dagosha) in the trash, everyone would flock to study Torah. Who would be foolish to go to scientific research where even after several years of research there is no guarantee that a positive finding will be found. Here, according to you, all the information already exists, or not? According to what you wrote, if it exists in the world, then it is necessarily written in the Torah in one way or another, this is your claim. Excellent, now the model, and not through a retrospective explanation. There are enough definite problems that humanity thirsts for an effective solution right now. If and when you manage to demonstrate this, it would be worth discussing it further.

  63. Miracles,

    A real scientific experiment in the Bible?

    I know! God said "and there was light" and there was light. This proves that God exists, and that he has supernatural powers D-)

    (They would do a peer review, but there was no one there but him)

  64. Out of the box,

    No, and not again. The universe and the earth were not created from the words of the Torah nor according to what is written in the Torah. What needs to happen for you to finally understand that you were taught nonsense? Where is your critical thinking? Did they suppress her completely? Do you say amen to every word the rabbi says without engaging in any independent thinking?

  65. Out of the box,

    Is history about knowledge and facts? By history I mean a description of past events. Do you agree that certain historical claims can be determined to be true? For example such and such facts about ancient Rome. The existence of ancient Rome cannot be confirmed by a scientific experiment. It cannot be studied directly and all knowledge about it comes to us indirectly from ancient letters, archaeological findings, influences on other cultures, etc.
    It can be said that the existence of the Roman culture and empire are facts because the alternative, that they are "historical speculation" simply does not make sense.
    Similarly, you can look at the non-experimental aspect of evolution as historical facts, human descent, common ancestor, birds evolving from dinosaurs, these are all historical facts that really can't be directly verified in the lab, but that doesn't make them any less factual than any experimental knowledge Other. As with the Roman Empire, our world today cannot be explained without evolution.

    Another thing, the article above can be compared to some new archaeological find that changes a little the way we think about ancient Rome. It is absolutely clear that such a finding cannot rule out its existence and no one would think of doing so.

    Your comparison between understanding the Torah and understanding a mathematical equation is irrelevant. The problem in the Torah is not the understanding of the scriptures, but the main claim on which it rests, and that is that something undefined exists from something that is called God and to which all kinds of strange properties are attributed. The problem is not only that there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of such a thing, but that "God" is just a word and the attributes attributed to him are just a string of nonsense that makes no sense.
    Can you define what that "God" is that you believe in, what is the content of this word, associate the word with something external and defined and not with some inner feeling of yours?

  66. Out of the box.
    What kind of empirical science did Einstein deal with exactly? He did not do an experiment of his day.

    And what exactly is true in the creation story, please tell me 🙂 Was the earth created first? After that the light? Is the moon a light source? Were plants created before there was light?

    And by the way - there is a real scientific experiment in the Bible - do you know it?

  67. Even those who do not understand electronics and quantum theory see in front of them countless devices created with the help of this knowledge. What actual, real thing was created from the words of the Torah? is nothing.

  68. Out of the box,

    Did it ever occur to you that maybe you were told nonsense and that everything you just said about the Torah that determines reality and all the other things you mentioned, are simply not true? Or is this a thought of heresy that should not even be brought to mind?

    If they were circumcised too early or too late and saw that the baby died, they realized very quickly from experience that the safest day is the eighth day, why does God have to say this?

  69. K
    Happy Purim if you are from Jerusalem.
    While looking at advanced math equations for those who have no idea of ​​symbols. In the example of the customer equations from the quantum world.. even if the viewer knows the shapes from somewhere else, he will not be able to understand the equation.. The same goes for drawing an electric circuit.. a drawing of a resistor or a capacitor or a diode or a transistor or a Jock is not May he have every success and discourse in understanding the subject brought before him.. The same goes for learning the Torah. Although the very fact that it is built from things that did happen, there are dimensions that the Torah requires of them.. for example the concept of no early and late in the Torah.. either light from material or simple, a hint of a sermon and a secret, each of which speaks to a different dimension of achievement..
    But again exemption from anything is to understand the point of view it is an article by the Sages who rejected the Torah and created the world.. It means that everything in the world was created because it is written in the Torah..otherwise it has no existence..that is, the basic idea is, it is not that the Torah is wise to know What is there in the world.. unless it was written in the Torah in one way or another it would not exist at all.. like for example a building contractor who fails on an engineer's blueprint and builds according to the blueprint.. after all everything that is in the building is because of Christianity in the blueprint..
    A very crude example is the order of the development of science regarding communication, first a development in the field of hearing, then in the visual field. And at the end of the Torah before the eyes of all Israel. Or something that you surely know.. that the eighth day of the covenant is that on this day there is a substance that was created on the eighth day in the blood that was not present on the seventh day.. This substance helps the blood to clot. While on the seventh day without this substance, the baby is in danger of life.. Another known fact is that a person who is mixed transmits fewer infections..

  70. Out of the box,

    First of all I had to correct you because you said that evolution is not an empirical science and that is not true, even without reading the book you probably know that evolution has been observed in bacteria, in the dogs we developed and in lizards, after all you have been reading this site since yesterday.

    The evidence for evolution is so numerous and varied that you really can't compare it to a species that was thought to be extinct and suddenly found out that there is still some small population of it somewhere, it's not comparable at all.

    And if you already mentioned Purim, if next Purim I dress up as an ultra-Orthodox, would you be willing to dress up as an atheist? 🙂

    All in good spirits.

  71. Yariv, I have not yet progressed with the book regarding evolution, so for the sake of fairness I will have an answer either against or vice versa... it is out of place... but I can't exempt from anything, therefore the simplest example of how a belief that they believed is not accurate... and I repeat a belief that they believed... proven in the article above that was not true.. so it was a small part and maybe secondary but still theoretically the most prominent fact is the article above.. or as stated in the book to which I sent me that there is a species that was thought to have become extinct millions of years ago and suddenly discovered that it still exists.

  72. Out of the box,

    It's a shame that K confuses you even though she means well. The theory of evolution (and I emphasize - the theory of evolution) is an experimental empirical science that is repeatedly confirmed by cultures of bacteria, fish, lizards, moths, fossils, genetics and more.

    By the way, what empirical evidence do you have for the existence of God other than the fairy tale book you believe in?

  73. K
    First of all, thank you for the precision you brought up between the concept of empirical, experimental science, whose occupation is limited to the description and classification of observed phenomena... and the speculative-theoretical "science", which deals with unknown phenomena that sometimes cannot be tested in the laboratory. The term "scientific speculation" basically includes This is a contradiction in terms, because science in its precise sense means "knowledge" and no speculation or hypothesis can be called knowledge in the exact sense of the word. At best, science can only talk about theories derived from certain facts,

  74. Why are you surprised "that the Rebbe talks to God"?
    Today - Purim - I was at a meeting of divine beings,
    There were also Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus, Elijah the prophet, Moses and others,
    For safety, there were bunches of figs hanging at the entrance to the meeting,
    Salt was sprinkled inside and a horseshoe was tied to the back of each participant.
    From time to time the participants would spit left and right,
    All this to prevent Lucifer and his followers from entering and interfering,
    It was interesting...

  75. K.

    Outside the box may misinterpret your words and say that here, an expert in the field claims that evolution is not a fact. I don't know if it's right to supply him with such ammunition.

    Is it a fact that the electrons revolve around the nucleus of the atom? Or is it just a theory that is reinforced by experiments? As far as I know, no one has yet observed electrons orbiting the nucleus, there is no direct observation of this. If this is indeed the case, why is this considered a fact, and the theory of evolution is not?

  76. Out of the box,
    When I am shown a reliable drug or technology that is developed directly from information that is allegedly found in the Divine Torah, I will be convinced that it is worth reconsidering my views about it and about its connection to the concept of truth. Until then, it is no better than any Elekite Torah that is common among many groups of people in the world, including religions, alternative medicine and followers of conspiracies. As an anthropological, cultural, literary and, to a limited extent, historical phenomenon, there is no doubt that the Torah of Israel is fascinating and important, just as there is no doubt, as of this moment, that it has nothing interesting to contribute to human knowledge if we compare it to the contribution of science up to now, and I would not be at all surprised that this will be the case in the future as well.
    You may not have meant to say that the Divine Torah contains actual knowledge that can be translated into reliable technology or medicine as obtained from scientific research, but then it would be good if you qualified and made it clear that your Torah is limited. In any case, as long as you or anyone else has nothing to offer in the field of actual knowledge, it would be good if you at least did not disparage scientific knowledge, any scientific knowledge, or scientists. This is not only hypocritical and ugly behavior, it is also stupid behavior.

  77. rival,
    Science, meaning scientists, does not necessarily strive for modesty. They do generally strive for accuracy and clarity (precisely because reality is often quite complicated or at least complex) and this is very different from some other fields, whose characteristic is conceptual vagueness and lack of integrity, which at most allow futile back and forth.
    I don't know how deep your acquaintance with science is, but for those who deal with it, the distinction between scientific fact and theory is quite clear. All kinds of meanings can be attributed to these words, including those that differ significantly from the accepted usage in the field:

    During Pasteur's time, the germ theory that he developed was indeed a theory that many doubted. Later it turned out that parts of this theory were correct and parts were completely wrong. In any case, from the moment bacteria can be identified, either by direct observation or by the known symptoms caused by those bacteria (again, according to observations and experiments that verified this connection) it is no longer a theory but a collection of scientific facts.

  78. Miracles
    I have the impression that something branched out of the box. Perhaps you know what, if at all, can be cured from an incurable disease that comes from the patient's will? Abarbanal did I say already?

  79. Out of the box,

    You have the right to believe what you want, you also believe in the existence of an imaginary entity you call "God" so it doesn't really surprise me.

    Tell me, how long before Purim did the rabbi "prophesy" this? Four days in advance? Two weeks in advance? Could it be that there were also news commentators who estimated that on Purim the fighting would end? Maybe Israel pressured its great friend the USA to try and end the operation by Purim so that we can celebrate the holiday in peace? I actually remember that there were military commentators who estimated that the chance of Saddam Hussein launching chemical weapons in the direction of Israel is slim because he understands very well what the consequences of such an act would be. So apparently you don't have to be in contact with God to understand such things.

    By the way, have you objectively checked what percentage of your Rebbe's prophecies really came true? 30%? 95%? Were they all accurate or were some of them just vague statements without a date?

    And again, what about all the nonsense that sages wrote in Gemara? Do they only know how to predict the future but are not aware of the present situation? And what about the prophecies of priests? How do you explain that?

    When faith is so blind, there is no problem adapting reality to it.

    Cheers and happy holidays.

  80. Miracles
    Not only did I live during the Gulf War and believe me I was young. But all of this is evidence.. some of it is on video and some of it is in writings that came out at the time. And the fact that the Rebbe talks to the Creator of the world.. He is not the only one. I do this at least three times a day.

  81. rival
    Since we are dealing with is well known that the first Gulf War ended precisely on Purim. As the Rebbe predicted... something that did not make sense at all at the time. And also the famous announcement that they will not need gas masks.. and also that when they turned to the Rabbi and asked if they would leave the country. The Rebbe rejected it. And not only that, but he encouraged those who wanted to immigrate during the war.. to immigrate to Israel. And he also said that there was no need to stockpile provisions for the time of war.. and all this was both before the Gulf War and in the middle of it.. since I myself saw, heard and followed all this.. did I also Is this a fictional story?

  82. Out of the box
    The number of people who believe in creation in six days is small, and most of these are actually Protestant Christians.

  83. Out of the box,

    The fact that millions of people believe in a book that is mostly legends and folktales and treat it as historical truth does not make it such a truth, many more people in the world treat as fact the things written in the New Testament and the Koran according to which God abandoned the people of Israel and made a new covenant with other nations.

    They also have "proofs" and "prophecies" just as much as yours does.

  84. K
    Thank you for the clarification regarding science's treatment of the word truth.. unlike Israel's Torah, which refers to the reality of absolute truth.. it is called almighty truth and does not change because it includes all of creation at any time (past, present and future) in any given situation. It is the one that affects The change while the change has no effect on her..
    You can say in physical terms the idea of ​​the formula for everything and that everyone can understand from a five year old who can read to the greatest scientist of all Einstein. Or Steven or Schrödinger or Heisenberg.. Darwin.. and more.. I wonder how one book written over three thousand years ago can stand tall against so many who are trying to knock it down.. reminds me a bit of the ending in The Matrix

  85. Out of the box,

    are you still here I don't know when you will finish reading the book, but whether you are convinced or not I would be happy to read your comment at the end. Maybe you will save a link to the current article in your favorites, and it will be decided that this is where you will write your comment when you finish reading?

    Otherwise I might miss out.

  86. K.

    I think that in light of all the evidence it is safe to say that evolution is a fact beyond any doubt. But if we continue your line of thinking for a moment, is the theory according to which bacteria cause diseases also "just a theory"? Maybe demons and evil spirits cause it.

    And what about the "theory" according to which electrons revolve around the atomic nucleus?

  87. rival,
    It seems to me that you are confusing the mechanism of evolution, which is a fact, and the theory of evolution that came to explain mainly the variety of organisms around us (including those that have already become extinct) and whose central claim is that all the organisms we know had a common ancestor. If we return to the concept of truth, then evolution as a mechanism is a direct scientific fact, that is, a certain truth. The theory of evolution is "only" the best explanation that we have today for a huge collection of phenomena that we know, when unlike many other cases in science (like in physics or chemistry for example) here there is no alternative theory that even comes close to the quality of this theory.

  88. In different places, the word 'truth' is used in different meanings. In science, truth can be a consequence of a "pure" logical process, and mathematical proofs are common examples of this, that is, if you accept the basic assumptions and the laws of logic, the conclusions in these cases are necessarily true. On the other hand, in most fields of science the main goal is to find models that best explain the whole of what we know in a certain field. In these areas there are no truths in the first sense, which are the closest thing to certainty. Here the situation is different, scientific truth is an established theory that relies on a large body of evidence, and is an excellent explanation for what we find around us and is also an excellent source of additional discoveries about things we have not yet seen but whose existence the same theory predicts. In this respect, the word 'truth' is less successful in my personal opinion precisely because it can be misleading, especially when it is known that theories may be replaced by others, and it would be more correct to say about a well-established scientific theory (such as evolution) that it is, quite simply, the best explanation we have at this moment in a certain field . It's a bit cumbersome but more accurate.
    Disregarding the best explanations that science manages to produce about the reality around us, while using technology and medicine based on this knowledge, indicates little intelligence and poor morality (spitting into a well from which one drinks is an ugly and despicable behavior).

  89. Out of the box,

    Happy Purim to you too! I'm really glad you started reading the book and I'm convinced you'll enjoy it. The current article really does not contradict evolution, it simply talks about one aspect of the subject (did the evolution of fins into primitive limbs immediately lead to rapid changes in other features as well) which probably sometimes works a little differently than what was thought or expected.

    For example, it could be that in the first stages after the fish began to develop degenerate legs, they still remained most of the time in (shallow) water and did not go out completely on land, or went out only for a short time and returned to the water, so there was no immediate pressure on them to develop additional features that they need on land.

    I hope that this book will make you finally understand that evolution is a fact (and believe me, that is exactly what it is) and even if, God forbid, you are not convinced, at least you will have basic knowledge and enrichment on the subject and know what it is about when you enter into debates or discussions with people about this fascinating subject.

    Easy fasting man 🙂

  90. rival
    What will I do now.. I bought the book Why evolution is true.. In the meantime I have read up to page 34.. already in the introduction he explains that the theory is the truth.. and all the proofs exist, down to the details that even Darwin did not know about their existence. etc. etc.. and now I come across Here is a new discovery that changes a few things a little..
    I don't know what is more real.. In any case, have a happy Purim

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