The Bnei Akiva movement was founded in 1929, as a religious-nationalist youth movement, probably Zionist, with the words Torah and work engraved on its flag, as combining courage in each other.
It is not for nothing that the movement was associated in its name and in the date of its foundation with the Bar Kochba rebellion (132-135 AD) and with Rabbi Akiva, who was mythologically seen as the ideological father who supported the rebellion against the Romans.
Let us first note that Ben Kusva's rebellion is full of complex mystery, and as such it can be, if I rely solely on his documents, which he himself, Ben Kusva, wrote and signed with his name, which may not have existed and was not created and at least not in the dimensions that tend to be attributed to its scope, duration and the very phenomenon of his opposition.
Second, no less problematic and mysterious, is the very name of the condemned leader: Ben Khosba or Bar Khosba is his real name, so it seems, as he himself signed it in his papers and that's what he was called, and it's even stamped like that on his coins. In Sage sources he is called Ben Khozavi or Bar Khozba and sometimes Bar Khozba. In the writer Eusebius, a church father, the rebel is called Kochba. In Dio Cassius, a fairly reliable Roman writer, the name of the leader of the revolt is not mentioned at all, unlike the previous Jewish revolt in Egypt and Kyrenia (about twenty years earlier), where Dio Cassius knows how to call the leader of the revolt by his name - Andreas, while Eusebius calls him by the name of Lucuas.
A much less complex and mysterious problem is the very reference of the literature of the Sages to the rebellion, and in essence - a complete negation of the rebellion and of Ben Kuseva who stands at its head, to such an extent that it is said in the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin tractate XNUMX p. XNUMX) that Ben Kuseva declared himself as the Messiah, was brought before the Sanhedrin, found guilty of impersonation and executed (slightly reminiscent of the case of Jesus of Nazareth).
And who clearly supported him? There was none other than Rabbi Akiva, the one who declared Ben Kusaba to be the "Malka Mashiach" (King of the Messiah) as written in the Jerusalem Talmud (Treatment Taaniyot chapter XNUMX, XNUMX, page XNUMX) and it is clear that this is a fundamental and essential struggle between the individual (Rabbi Akiva ) and the general, and the majority, we were the number of members of the Sanhedrin.
In any case, Rabbi Akiva was seen throughout history as the spiritual leader of the rebellion, its ideological father, and this despite the fact that there are only shallow and distorted interpretations of this. And in general, there is nothing like the archaeological find. Rabbi Akiva does not mention Ben Kusava's writings at all. More than that - in the coins of Ben Khosva, one figure sometimes appears, who may or may not be a kind of spiritual leader, and her name is Elazar the priest, but not Rabbi Akiva.
And perhaps Rabbi Akiva had his own rebellious tendencies, without any connection to Ben Kusava, and this is perhaps expressed in the sage traditions, which are precisely what the founders of the "Bnei Akiva" movement ask for generations to see in him as the figure of the spiritual leader of the rebellion. I will talk about them later.
There were, among them respected researchers, who claimed that the evidence in the Sage literature that tells about Rabbi Akiva's journeys and his voyages in the waters of the Mediterranean towards Jewish communities, was intended to raise funds for the financing of the hoped-for, expected, planned rebellion. Well, first of all - funds donated by Jewish communities for the Land of Israel Center, what is known as the "Towel of the Wise" were intended for the benefit of the business of the Sanhedrin and the Presidency, which certainly did not support the rebellion. Secondly - these contacts were mainly intended to strengthen the ideological and political connection to a certain extent between the Jewish communities and the Sanhedrin. Thirdly - Rabbi Akiva would not usually go out alone, but with other respected Sanhedrin leaders, who certainly the matter of the rebellion, if at all, was far from the core of their interest. The year passed there, and he returns and reports about his trip to the president of the Sanhedrin, in terms of an official report, which was mainly conceptual and halachic, such as the question of the woman's marriage according to only one witness. To link this with preparation for rebellion seems fanciful and far-fetched. It could be, as a kind of "maybe", an attempt by Rabbi Akiva to establish a leadership position for himself in contrast to Rabbi Gamliel's dynasty, which was then quite loose and lax in the absence of official Roman approval for its leadership, but not beyond that.
So what is really the connection between Rabbi Akiva and the rebellion? This emerges in several Sage sources in connection with Rabbi Akiva and his students (from which the name "Bnei Akiva" was born) and one prophet of them gives the impression as follows: "They said: Rabbi Akiva had twelve thousand couples (=couples) of students. Rabbi Akiva had a towel and an antipersian and they all died in one chapter (Talmud Babili Tractate Yavmoth XNUMX p. XNUMX).
Hundreds of years later, our "gentlemen" took the following expressions: twenty-four thousand, a wide geographical area and a quick death, and built a theory that is unfounded from the premise of Rabbi Akiva and his students joining the rebellion and dying on the battlefield in one battle, and some add and translate in the style of the death of heroes.
But May? They were "forgotten" by the twists of history to look beyond the shoulders of the aforementioned text. And what is said there in the Talmudic text? "Because they didn't respect each other and the world was theirs." In other words, they were punished for not respecting each other. Because no one respected his brother. So what is the connection to the killing field? There is no connection or affinity to any participation in war or rebellion. The sages of the Talmud did not allow this matter to pass from the world until they clarified it to the end. And what will be said next? "They all died from Passover to Atzeret (that is, this is the meaning of "and they all died in one episode"). Rabbi Hama bar Abba and Itima Rabbi Haya bar Abin said: They all died an evil death. May she? Rav Nachman said (answered): "Askhara" meaning diphtheria, which is a serious disease that affects the respiratory tract and until a preventive vaccine was found for it, it was known as a fatal disease. In other words, the disciples of Rabbi Akiva died at most from some kind of severe plague.
and the conclusions:
1 - There is great doubt whether Rabbi Akiva was the spiritual leader of the rebellion and its ideological father. And at most he believed in the Messiahship of Ben Khosva in the opinion of a minority.
2 - It is very doubtful if he had so many students, that even the exaggeration is imaginary and astronomical in scope. The sages of the Sanhedrin did not instruct, educate and teach more than five distinct students.
3 - It is very doubtful whether their death is chronologically related to the days of the rebellion and that perhaps the story of their death dates long before the outbreak of the Ben Khosva rebellion.
4 - It is very doubtful whether their death was caused by taking an active part in the rebellion.
5 - These were not mentioned at all in the letters of the rebellion, which shows the very lack of credibility of the story.
6 - The death of the students as a result of that deadly epidemic and the phrases that appear in the literature of the Sages teach about some kind of heavy punishment, "from heaven", for a serious deed they did, especially for not showing respect to one another, and this is reminiscent to a large extent of the article of the Sages on the house The second one that was destroyed because he had a gratuitous hatred of it and the failure of the rebellion because of the problematic personality of Ben Khosba who was accused of the sin of hubris, the sin of arrogance towards God.
7 - Let's not forget that this myth, which has been simmering for a long time in the "cauldron" of the Talmud sages, was intended, it seems, to warn against the despicable behavior of human beings towards each other.
8 - I got the impression that Rabbi Akiva, for his own reasons and considerations, decided to rebel against the mythological leadership of the presidency. And if we are talking about the XNUMXs that preceded the Ben Kusaba rebellion, which were in terms of a "black hole", a period of interregnums (between the priesthood of Rabbi Gamliel and his successor Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel) when it is known about the leadership attempts of the sages of the Sanhedrin, the possibility cannot be ruled out that Rabbi Akiva was among Among them, he even recruited quite a few students for this purpose.
And if so, he and his path are similar to the great usurper in the form of Ben Kusava, who, similarly, used the period of "interregnums" to take control of Judah and lead the Jewish public.
10 תגובות
Rabbi Akiva was one of four who were given the right (in the hands of something abstract we call heaven) to enter Paradise.
Jewish secret teachings, the secrets of divinity. The only one who came out intact is Rabbi Akiva, to show us how high his spiritual level is.
In the Talmud in tractate Hagiga (XNUMX:) four entered the garden. And these are: Ben Azai and Ben Zuma, Achar and Rabbi Akiva. [...] Ben Azzai peeked and died... Ben Zuma peeked and was hit... After cutting the plantings, Rabbi Akiva left safely.
The Talmud speaks in a short language that one must learn to understand. I learned it as a secular, at a late age.
Another is the name of Rabbi Elisha ben Abuya, the teacher of Rabbi Meir Bael Hanes. That's a story in itself.
The same Elisha betrayed, and was confiscated - he and his descendants are forbidden to come in the congregation of Israel. "Cut down the plantings", that is, he became an apostate in the main principles of the Jewish faith. It is forbidden to even say his name, so he is called the other. His student Meir Baal-Hans fought against the decree (the stories are about the allegory) from the hands of Heaven not to let him into heaven and asked to be admitted. Thanks to Rabbi Meir, the precedent was set: ""Rabbi Meir Rimon Metza. His heart (Elisha ben Abuya's extensive knowledge of the Torah) he ate, and his shell (his apostasy) he threw away." If someone is great in the Torah and probably in the wisdom of the Gentiles = sciences, but fails in faith, take the good things from his learning, and do not completely erase his memory. Ben Zuma is known to us from the Passover Haggadah: "As long as Ben Zuma demanded".
The Talmud is not historically accurate, although this also exists. First and foremost to teach morals.
The greatness of Rabbi Akiva, who seems foreign and strange to us from the celebrations of the XNUMXrd Ba'Omer of the religious, that he understood that the people of Israel were going into a long exile, and invented an ingenious recipe that has no other in history for the preservation of a nation without a homeland. Setting up a prayer book with prayers, setting up a Mishnah and Talmud - although the signing of the Mishnah was not done by Rabbi Akiva, but the enterprise began with him. Professor Chechenover is a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, secular, a regular student of Talmud.
Professor Israel Oman, a major contributor to the theory of games under conditions of uncertainty "and the space of beliefs" interprets tractates in the Talmud one by one according to the theory of games - that is, there is a mathematical rationale here. In South Korea, Talmud is studied in order to sharpen the mind (population: 50 million) as part of the curriculum: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4046985,00.html.
In Iran, Jordan and other countries in Islamic studies they study Talmud
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4342722,00.html.
What's worth noting is that you sound religious/Orthodox to me and I'm traditional/scientifically oriented, we didn't curse each other and we met on a scientific website. It means that my speculation is correct (not sure) there are Haredim who are oriented towards the wisdom of the sciences and there may be some common denominator for the conversation. N.B.: also take a number of Yeshua histories of the Jews.
The details I gave are correct according to historians.
The details you have given are correct and do not contradict except that you believe that Jesus is the disciple of Isaiah ben Farahia and not this Jesus. Overall I agree with the details, some of them are a Talmudic example.
See: http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=2255
The characters around:
Kifa, a high priest, Nicodemus Ben-Gurion, a member of the Sanhedrin, Rabbi Shimon Kifa = Shimon Peter - were genuine.
Joseph ben Matityahu speaks of Jesus, from the time of the great rebellion - about 50 AD, 20 years after his death. But some say that Christian translators planted the words in his writings. Rabbi Shimon Kifa wrote, according to tradition, 2-3 important prayers on Yom Kippur, he was known for his asceticism. Was a character whose existence is happy. Considered the founder of Christianity.
http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=2691
He left behind many of his own writings among the Christians, and also appears a lot in our sources. Therefore I believe that Jesus existed.
I agree with you that there are pagan symbols in Christianity. I saw them crossing themselves in front of the statue of the Virgin, as we kiss a mezuzah, and also kneeling in front of a statue. On the outer wall of every church there is a statue of the crucified. Although as a symbol of the righteous or righteous - but this completely contradicts Judaism: you shall not make a statue or any mask for yourself, and in 13 principles: it does not have the image of the body and is not a body.
I do not think that the monks in the various orders, for example, do not believe in one and only creator who is everything.
Even if he was a sinner according to our views, he would not deserve to be killed in my view - irrelevant.
to Joseph
The Christian Jesus in the Talmud, a student of Gehazi who was rejected by his rabbi, appears in the Talmud under the name Jesus - Yeshu is the initials of "May his name be remembered and remembered" for rejecting the people of Israel. This Jesus was executed by stoning or being pushed off a cliff by the Sanhedrin and not by Crucifixion by the Romans and this is an event that happened about fifty to a hundred years before the Christian Jesus was born.
Jesus is called "Jesus" in Hebrew only by the Jews, his name according to his believers is Jesus of Nazareth and not the Christian Jesus.
There is a possibility that the Christian religion may have invented the story about the Christian Jesus on the basis of the previous Jesus, changed the names of his disciples a bit, changed the form of execution in the story from stoning to crucifixion... I don't think so - but the connection is quite tenuous and more likely these are two completely different people.
The Jewish religion's denial of Christianity, unlike Islam, is because Christians do not observe the religious commandments of Noah, which include staying away from idolatry and photography. The Christians, especially the Catholics, are idolaters according to the Jewish and also the Muslim definition because of the saints and photographers they have.
Therefore, according to Orthodox Judaism, Christianity is considered idolatry and Islam a legitimate religion for the Gentiles.
According to the evidence provided by the philosopher and the great, wise and outcast Rabbi Baruch Spinoza in his book "A Theological and Political Essay" - the Pharisee establishment censored and edited all the Holy Scriptures to conform to their Torah and their perception of religion, and in the process they also made sure to slander the other sects and currents that came out of Judaism, one of which was Christianity the ancient
2 more interesting details about the story about Jesus in the Talmud. The same High Priest Cephas (many heads of the Sanhedrin were called Cephas at the time) - his coffin is in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. That is, he existed as a historical figure, had good relations with the Romans and one of his duties was to find subversive elements and bring them to the notice of the Romans. Cephas fulfilled his role.
As Jesus crucified him, Rabbi Akiva's flesh was combed as one of the ten royal executioners. One was extradited by the Sanhedrin and was seen as an enemy and the other was seen as one of the greatest of Judaism of all time. The second point. The same Rabbi Shimon Kifa - the first Pope - is according to tradition the author of Seder Havoda "You created the world with great kindness", as well as "The soul of every living being", and perhaps also "You will give glory". That is why, in my opinion, the attitude of Judaism to Christianity, and less to Islam, is so painful. Those students were part of the rabbinical establishment, and here we are talking about a rabbi who was perceived as righteous by the establishment. It is true that there is also the Shatanz of the Holy Trinity that appeared in Christianity in a late period and is pagan in the Jewish sense.
I didn't understand why someone who doesn't believe bothers to devote his free time and try to show how smart and enlightened he is, like the guy mj. This prickly cynicism teaches me one very simple thing.
Today, after years of gaining knowledge - I can say with absolute certainty
I know how far I am from knowing everything, how far humans are from knowing even what happened 300 years ago (not to mention thousands of years)
Your belief in a singular point (which has always existed, without any proven or comprehensible explanation to a human mind, a theory invented by a human mind), matter and submatter that met and produced the big bang from which everything came... it seems logical to you
But to put yourself in a different reference point, that there is some factor that created this whole system, which is a (small) part of something else big, it seems illogical to you.
I like science, I really like discovering new or contradictory things
I really like to find the parallel to religion, even though I am secular
One thing I certainly do not do and will not do - is to enter websites/articles that are not to my liking and laugh at the way of faith of others.
There is a problem with the dating of some of the stories and these arise from the fact that the Talmud's main emphasis is not historical. As MJ pointed out.
For example, the story about Rabbi Shimon Kifa. How is it possible that he lived in the days of Jesus, if he lived in the days of Rabbi Akiva.
That is why it is believed that there are 2 Hillel the Elder, while in the Talmud there is one. As in the Bible there is one Isaiah, and the secular scholars believe that there were 2 Isaiahs who lived in different periods. The Talmud was edited in a later period. and signed perhaps even in 300 AD. About 270 years after Jesus, and about 250 years after Rabbi Akiva.
Sorry. You claim that all the academic scholars in the Israeli tradition have no justification.
In my opinion, it is precisely from them that I receive scientific criticism of the sources.
Dr. Rabbi Binyamin Lau compares in a 5-volume series of sages, between the non-Talmudic dating and the Talmudic dating.
Although the Talmud's main emphasis is not historical, but history can be learned from it, just like from the Bible - of course with a critical approach. I like the article by Yehiam Sorek.
As above Professor Halbertal and Professor Walden (home of Shimon Peres?). All of these analyze the Talmud in light of the historical background.
From the Talmud as an external historical source for the New Testament, it is possible to learn in a non-mystical way (compared to the New Testament) about Jesus and six of his disciples. And also the fact that there is a source other than the New Testament = their Bible, which testifies to Jesus - maybe he really existed. A man named Yeshua is said to have been a student of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Farahia, meaning that Jesus was a Pharisee rabbi.
He clashed with the Pharisee establishment, because he preferred a mitzvah between a man and his fellow man more than a mitzvah to do to keep the Sabbath, and he also spoke in the terms of a Buddhist teacher: I am. They believe that Jesus wrote Yehoshua ben Farahia in the chapters of Avot: Hawe dan all man to a right hand. The most famous of his students even more than Jesus himself is Rabbi Shimon Kifa who is probably Shimon Peter. Kifa in Aramaic Peter in Greek. This is the subject of a famous polemic with Rabbi Akiva who expresses differences of opinion between the people and between the religions out of respect for each other. Two bad guys in the desert. Shimon Kifa is mentioned in Sefer Hassidim that, in coordination with the rabbinic establishment, he separated the Christians from the Jews, but also forbade pharaohism among the Jews. About them we say in our eighteenth prayer: Do not have hope for species and informers, and all the Zadim will perish at the moment. Nicodemus Ben-Gurion mentioned in the Talmud as a member of the Sanhedrin is possibly, (uncertainly) Nicodemus from the New Testament. According to the Christians, Joseph Harmati was a member of the Sanhedrin. I'm not a Christian - I just enjoy reading the Talmud from a secular-mixed point of view. That is, there were Pharisee rabbis in the Sanhedrin who opposed the verdict of the High Priest Caiaphas. I guess I annoy others.
What is beautiful about the Talmud as a historical source is that it does not obscure controversies. Like the Bible: the story of David and Bathsheba
There was a Tanait rabbi named Broria and she was more powerful than her husband, even Meir the miracle worker. The establishment did not allow it to develop, a woman has no place in a midrash.
There was Rabbi Meir Baal Hans who was in opposition to Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi and paid a heavy price for it.
I'm sorry, but besides saying that the stories of the Talmud are not necessarily historical truth - (really a big innovation), what exactly is the purpose of this article? (Well, it's not really hard to guess) And in the forgiveness, you believe that if and maybe and just in case - that the writer expects us to receive a Torah for Moses from Sinai?
(I especially like the "gentlemen" took, hundreds of years later, the phrases... "forgot" them from the twists of history to look over the shoulders of the aforementioned text. And what is said there in the Talmudic text...
Who is this gentlemen? Are they distorting history? After all, the whole article is based on the fact that the real historical story does not receive an adequate representation in the legends of the Talmud. And that this is the first time that Ketub has encountered the method called "sermon"?
Why does the writer think that they did not see, knew and understood what was beyond the "shoulders of the aforementioned text"?
In short:
come on. It would have been better if it hadn't been written.
This article lacks an explanation of the reason for the rejoicing on Mount Meron in honor of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, precisely in Lag B'Omer.
Besides - this myth that Kochba broke was a heroic and holy rebel, Rabbi Akiva the wise who preaches love for your neighbor like you... and was the spiritual leader of the rebellion, a war of the few against the many... - the myth is beautiful, educational, contributes to the unity of the people and the love of the homeland, freedom from slavery and tyranny is important to Zionism, therefore it is more important than the facts the continents.
As Professor Leibovitz said - "Moses did not come down from Mount Sinai to give us a lesson in physics, biology or history", that is, the purpose of the holy books is educational / cultural / religious, religion is built on educational legends, myths and beliefs and not on scientific facts.
Therefore there is no place to check the historical facts in a scientific way and based on that to decide what is right and wrong from a religious point of view.