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A paradigmatic crisis in the flat earth

Flat Earth believers display self-confidence when they make contradictory claims. They are also required to investigate on their own. The Stochastic investigation tries to achieve order out of extreme confusion. Lots of different conspiracy theories are mixed together. Dotan Reiss joined the groups of followers of the Flat Land, and tried to understand from them how they think

The flat earth model. illustration: https://depositphotos.com/

"You stand on the beach and see a ship disappear over the horizon. The scientists of the sphere, NASA, say the reason is that the ship beyond the curvature of the sphere is like a person who descends over a mountain and disappears. […] The answer is simple: there is no curvature, and when a ship disappears, it does not disappear, but the eye does not see it, and when you look through special binoculars, you suddenly see the ship that has disappeared.'

That's what Nathan explained to me (all the names in the article are fictitious), in a nutshell, how does he know that the earth is flat. A claim that it is apparently easy to check this way: go to the sea with the same "special binoculars" and check if you see the ships that have disappeared. But this is an obvious trap: if you check and don't see the ships, this will only prove that the binoculars are not suitable.

It is common in the philosophy of science to talk about a concept of paradigm. The paradigm is the collection of axioms, data, research methods and practices that creates a scientific discipline, and it determines the boundaries of the field, how a scientific fact is defined, what can and cannot be claimed, and where the field will progress.

I entered the Israeli Facebook group of the Flat Land (2800 members) to understand what the paradigm they propose is in contrast to the accepted paradigm. After they approved my joining the group, I posted a question about the thing that I thought was the most improbable in this theory (although later I came across less improbable things), which is the fact that if the theory is true, there are inevitably a lot of people who know it and have proof, but none of them Speak.

A partial list: pilots, scientists, organizations that explore space for all of their employees, all the engineers who deal with satellite communication, all the engineers and scientists who work in the shadows to enable things like cellular communication in the absence of satellites, who finances all of the above, everyone who works in the industry of falsifying findings from space (including making live movies of satellite photos, photos from the space station, photos from telescopes, etc.).

The members of the group ("Stochists", as they call themselves) gave me many answers, which did not convince me that the earth is flat, but allowed me to get an idea of ​​how their paradigm works.

Flatists and anomalies in science

The map of the flat earth, with the North Pole in the center and Antarctica at the edges. illustration: https://depositphotos.com/

When presented with a problem with the flat model, most flat earth men and women will deal with it head on. They will not avoid the question, and they may even be proactive in finding problems - a trait that deserves appreciation. The confrontation (minus the responses that attacked the questioner, which were not many) seems at first not serious. There are very anecdotal claims, or ones that seem unrelated to the topic. As we will see later, this is fundamental to the theory. But I came from a different paradigm, so I insisted on focused answers to my question, and tried to avoid drifting into other topics as they often tried to tempt me.

The targeted answers to the question fell into three general categories: (1) there are organizations strong enough to prevent people from speaking, (2) very few people know the truth and they control the rest who follow instructions and (3) people do speak. These are two representative examples of the answers I received:

oak:

Even if a person worked at NASA and spoke, then first of all those were his last words, and secondly he will never get attention because they simply won't let him, unlike their puppet celebrities for example, who if they open their mouths - they are eliminated (and not from Pfizer), that's why all kinds of celebrities die in the middle of life usually either suicide or overdose, why? Because they can really influence public opinion, and a thinking public is a dangerous public for them.

Nimrod:

There are whole videos of pilots and people from the system who say out loud that the world is flat..
It has long been no secret.
You can easily prove with binoculars subject to the curvature formula and see that there is absolutely zero curvature, not even a little.

It didn't seem to bother anyone that these solutions were contradictory. The internal debates in group discussions, which are quite few, mainly revolve around how the questioner should be treated. Often the option that he is a troll comes up, so he should be ignored or removed from the group. On one of the occasions when we discussed this regarding me, Alon answered as follows: "I think he simply has a long and long way to go and a flat country is not the right place to start." In another case, when one of the commenters answered me in a disparaging way, someone wrote to him, "Why are you condescending, say? He asked a legitimate question.' But I have not seen a criticism of the body of an argument between two flatists.

In fact, not only did the contradictions not bother people, there were many who held more than one position, and sometimes when I insisted on getting to the bottom of one answer, people deviated to another position, or someone else replaced them in the discussion. In some cases people expressed two opposing opinions at once, as in the following examples:

emir:

Millions of people don't lie
There are a few at the top of every body who know the truth
The millions in the so-called layers trust the information that comes from above
A pretty simple pyramid scheme to be honest

And it wasn't hundreds of years ago, even in schools they taught that the world is flat, there is a nice 102-year-old old woman who talks about it

RAM:

Not everyone is supposed to know, only the people at the top know that everyone who works under them follows orders like a parrot
And by the way, there are a lot of pilots who say that the world is flat when they were photographed with a hidden camera

When I insisted that they explain to me how an organization works that silences so many people, but fails to silence the Facebook group in which we speak or prevent Flat Earth conferences, the answer was usually either a spillover to answer (2), or a deepening of the conspiracy and an invitation to learn about more conspiracies. Insisting that surely many people should know the truth has only led to digging into isolated cases (pilots don't need to know that the world is flat, because planes fly alone. So what about engineers? They just build what they're told, and so on). Insisting that there were actually no confessions from people who participated in the conspiracy was hopeless. I entered one of the videos posted in the group where pilots admit that the earth is flat. Below is a transcript of one of the "confessions":

Woman (behind the camera): "Did you notice any curvature while we were up there?"
Pilot (doesn't seem to understand what they want from him): "Uh... no"
Woman: "No? What did you see while we were up there?'
Pilot: "Ah... just blue sky, white clouds"
Woman: "So, it's flat, or..."
Pilot: "pretty flat/boring" (pretty flat).

One of the responses to the video says "The pilots signed if they expose the 'spinning ball' scam, they will be thrown out of work and prosecuted.. Dozens of videos are about it, only retired pilots started talking." It's worth noting that the scene I quoted, which is from the video he was commenting on, showed a young pilot in a cockpit, apparently right after landing.

Such claims, which are not only weak but also contradict each other, create the impression of confirmation bias extreme This impression is greatly strengthened when problems are proposed with the opposite theory, that of the flat earth.

One of the problems with this theory, is that if the earth is flat and covered by a transparent dome on which the sun rotates (so they believe), it is not possible for there to be night. The difference between day and night should be a difference in the angle of the sun in the sky. But of course our basic observation is of the sun setting in the west and rising in the east, and in between there is no way to see it.

Stochists do not believe this to be the case. For them, the sun simply "moves away", so it appears lower in the sky and looks like it is setting, and at night it is simply too far away to be seen. How can something so powerful that it makes daylight and supplies energy to the whole world be invisible right after sunset just because its angle changes and the distance increases? Below is a representative answer:

Hila:

Be legitimate, the answer is that our vision is limited. If the sun was large in relation to the size of the earth, it would be seen from everywhere and it would always shine, on the whole earth all the time. But the sun is small, so it only shines on the area above which it is and is not visible from afar.

That is, just after sunset, the sun has simply moved away by a few degrees, so we can't see it anymore. We still have a direct line to her, and if our eyes were good enough we would continue to see her even at night. The whole illusion of day and night is created because of the limitations of human vision (up to 6 km, one of them claimed, another claims that vision works "like a cone" that we cannot see beyond its peak). These are things that can be disproved very easily, but as far as the stochists are concerned, they already have proof: if you just buy a pair of binoculars sophisticated enough, you will be able to see the sun even at night. (And you will also be able to see the feet of people standing on the beach in Cyprus, because the earth has no curvature at all).

The patience of the stochists inspires respect, and so does their depth. One of the proofs of the existence of the conspiracy was a long list of NASA articles in which it was written explicitly that the earth is flat. I have not found an explanation for the fact that an organization that is all fake and forgery issues official documents that reveal the same secret they are hiding, which has been buried for hundreds of years. Reading the documents revealed an even bleaker picture.

Indeed, the phrase "flat country" or something similar appeared in them. In one of the examples, it was some kind of calculation exercise, when in the line above the phrase "flat country" the phrase "simplifying assumptions" appeared. Despite my attempts, I was unable to reach consensus with the publisher of the documents regarding the meaning of the phrase "simplifying assumptions".

The stochastic paradigm

the flat earth Illustration: shutterstock
the flat earth illustration: shutterstock

The conclusion of the Stochists from almost all the discussions they had with me is that "I still have a lot to learn." They directed me to learn about the Twin Towers (conspiracy), the Corona virus (as above) and the Holocaust (I preferred not to get to the bottom of their opinion on this subject). They attached a lot of movies and videos that teach their theory, and most of them testified themselves that they didn't believe it at first, and only after a long and significant research did they discover the truth. This is what Aviel said:

As if you think I believed in the flat world like that just in one day?
You need the entire spectrum of understanding of the history of shadow governments in the past and present and the total understanding and awareness that you don't have today to say and be sure that they have been working on us for decades. We approach this topic several times while at the same time researching the establishment and the unspoken history of governments and corporations. Read about Rothschild, Rockefeller and above all start with the ones that are appropriate.
Learn about Zionism! Enrich, expand, stretch, inflate, challenge your knowledge from non-institutional sources and not from Neil DeGris Tyson this dick
Jesus!! You are very behind in education. Of course I'm not sure you'll do it because I know people like you who are incapable and cannot contain the truth because you're looking for the "simpler explanation that will be the right one." ??

As history teaches us, a scientific paradigm is often wrong. At a certain point, more and more anomalies in science will accumulate, which will cause a growing dissatisfaction, until a situation of scientific crisis arrives, where it is not clear what the paradigm is. The solution to such a crisis is the rise of a new paradigm, around which the community aligns. So it was when the world of science passed From the geocentric model (the earth at the center of the universe) to the heliocentric model (the earth revolves around the sun).

Ironically, the geocentric model was brought up in the group several times as an example of how in the past people did believe in the flat earth, before the lies started. So it was, we argued, in ancient Greece. When I pointed out that even according to the geocentric model the earth is round, Dor answered me:

Okay, you demonstrate a proficiency in history that we have no way of knowing who wrote it and at what point. As far as I know the opinion in the ancient world was that the earth is flat according to the insight of Ptolemy.

Durr did not specify what his sources were, and how he obtained them before history was rewritten.

Many of the Stochists' proofs, like this one, are neither difficult to test nor difficult to disprove, and many times they are not proofs either. Such a proof works like Alice's rabbit in Wonderland. It's a bait that if you chase it you'll fall down an endless rabbit hole, which at the end is just more and more holes.

The "understanding" that is reached at the end of the "research" is a kind of state of dizziness in which everything makes sense. Including a picture of Putin wearing a shirt that allegedly betrays the conspiracy, a pilot who puts the phrase "it looks flat" into his mouth, the fact that the sun "looks close" when it is behind clouds, the residence of the CEO of NASA and the quote on his grave, graffiti in California and more.

As Mark Sargent, the hero of the film, said Behind the curve (on Netflix) and one of the leaders of the flat earth movement in the USA: "The advantage of the flat earth against science, and the reason we win, is that science just throws math at you. While we tell you: look! You can see Seattle from here."

One of the arguments I heard, which was heartbreaking, also came from a passage:

My father was an engineer in the aerospace industry and I used to ask him questions about gravity, 30 years ago when I didn't dare to doubt the ball. One day he stopped answering questions and was unwilling to talk about what he was working on. I guess he was instructed like that, and it turned out to stochists like me that there are secret brotherhoods that rule the world. They do not accept anyone who is willing to talk about them or who is not in a position where they can crush him at will. So the answer to how in your question [that is, how the conspiracy works - Dr.] is the exercise of mental terror, intimidation, consistent criticism.

Unlike the paradigm in conventional science, which can be in crisis, the stochastic paradigm seems immune to it. The constant state of swirling contradictory and anecdotal facts and the lack of trying to create an orderly, consistent and agreed upon theory creates an ephemeral structure that is not fragile, precisely because it is not rigid. The stochastic theory has no anomalies. When presented with difficulties (for example, the fact that the sun sets), the stochastics immediately pull out a host of contradictory and improbable solutions, and complain that these are beginner's questions that they are tired of answering.

Even in normal science, a scientific crisis does not start easily, and often a change of generations is necessary for it to take place, when the old generation clings to a familiar paradigm and is ready to accept the anomalies as things that will be explained in the future, while the new generation sees the anomalies as a real problem in theory. It is human and understandable that professionals would have difficulty admitting that a significant part of their work was wrong, and with stochists it is no different. Although they are not professionals and most of them do not make a living from their "research" (there are some who do, influencers of sorts like Sargent), but the theory provides them with meaning, respect and above all community. For example, Nathan says:

Some people are still afraid to speak up because they will be told they are crazy. I also tried to develop the topic at my job and received a flood of laughs and hints that I am crazy so that in a place of livelihood it is not pleasant to be thought of and it is better to keep quiet so that it doesn't reach your boss

Another strength of the stochastic paradigm is that the community does not operate like the scientific community, in the sense of peer review and discussions (in the aforementioned film there are examples of mutual suspicion and even internal conspiracy theories, but in the Israeli community I have seen no signs of this, except for the sporadic accusation of new people that they are trolls) . Stochistic inquiry is highly individual. Everyone has to research for themselves, and people ask each other for references or ways to "see for themselves" the facts. (An image that someone from the community uploaded of the sunset, which is supposed to prove some part of the theory, received responses that seek to understand how to exactly reproduce the image themselves).

This is how one of the commenters answered me when I asked him what his sources were:

Come learn an important rule for life, which always works - check it out. The more institutional/official/central your source of information is - the greater the amount of manipulation applied to you, respectively.

When there is no peer review and common thought, even if one person changes their mind, it will not move anything in the entire community, no matter what the reasons are. If you weren't convinced, it's because you didn't study enough and didn't go down enough rabbit holes. The fact that one person, or a million, are not convinced, and it doesn't matter who they are, is in no way indicative of a problem with the theory.

One of the advantages of a scientific paradigm is that it defines rules for what counts as proof and what counts as refutation, and it defines practices of testing, experimentation, and peer review. These are not self-evident mechanisms, as is evident from situations like this one where they are missing. They were developed and perfected over thousands of years by many people for whom this was their main occupation. The flat earth paradigm does not have all these mechanisms, and this does not allow knowledge to develop and progress, and ironically this is probably what keeps the theory alive.

In the absence of any control mechanisms, the paradigm can continue to operate as long as there is a large enough population to come up with speculative solutions to any difficulty that arises. Once this basic condition is met, there doesn't seem to be any outside influence, whether it's data or people, that can collapse the paradigm. On the other hand, there is no stopping any individual from abandoning the paradigm, and completely changing his mind about the people who believe in the flat earth, but only on the condition that he is willing to lose his place in the community.

The stupid person

The flat earth carried on a giant turtle. Illustration: depositphotos.com
The flat earth carried on a giant turtle. Illustration: depositphotos.com

It's hard to believe that stochastic inquiry is a marginal hobby. The more it leads to more radical insights about the world, the more it seems to reflect part of the character and self-concept of man.

As mentioned, the Tokhis investigation is trying to achieve order out of extreme confusion. Lots of different conspiracy theories are mixed together, and as many people say themselves, it is difficult to impossible to understand one, certainly not the flat earth (which is a theory for the advanced), without understanding and believing in many of them. The stochastic tries to create order out of a collection of tiny pieces of information that he has collected in the huge flow of information that comes to him, in which he gets lost. The investigation is a stubborn rebellion against the feeling of helplessness and powerlessness, which the stochist wants to shake off and prove his power over.

In my opinion, it is not by chance that this is the reality they created for themselves in the community - it is a reflection of how they felt in the world even before the community.

This sense of uncertainty creates antagonism and anger towards everyone else, those who supposedly "understand" and to whom the world seems to make sense (remember what Durr tells about his engineer father), and this allows stochists to easily dismiss entire populations, such as scientists, pilots, engineers and more, as stupid, innocent and/or liars. One of the rarest expressions in the community is "I don't know", and the biggest insult that a Tokhist can throw at someone is "innocent". Tamim is someone who is weak, whose thoughts are dictated by external forces. The Stoicist strives for independence and control. It is an individual-libertarian project: a complete lack of reliance on the institutions and people who, from the Stochist's point of view, blocked him, probably with malicious intent, access to knowledge and power.

The individualism of the stochastics expresses a rebellion against the institutions of society, and this is what repeatedly thwarts their investigation. They are tired of people telling them that they don't understand and they are not ready to accept facts that are dictated to them "from above". That's why they have to believe that one person who is not a professional can understand the entire theory by himself based on facts he saw with his own eyes - without a scientific community and without relying on others. Stochists understand that knowledge is power, but they don't have access to conventional knowledge, so they create unconventional knowledge, and draw their power from there.

The argument with the stochists is not only about facts and theories, it is also about respect. They are not interested in hearing a lecture from you that explains to them that they are wrong. They want to be heard and receive respectful treatment, and a factual reference to the difficulties they raise. If you ignored their point, it proves that they are right, and positions you as part of the establishment, or, as Michal told me: "You are being brainwashed so that you suppress the truth yourself." Trying to convince a single flatist that he is wrong is a Sisyphean endeavor with slim chances of success. Is it worth the effort? Or maybe the problem should be solved not through the stochastic paradigm but through the accepted paradigms, which more and more people feel the need to rebel against, be it flatists, climate deniers, or vaccine opponents?

Sargent, quoted above, likens himself in his youth to Truman, who discovers that the world he lives in is a TV show set, and exits it through a door in the "sky" which is actually a set. When asked why other people, for example scientists, don't get out of the fake world, he says that "when you are the mayor of the fake city, and you have money and respect, you have no interest in getting out." Personally he sympathized with Truman and did not feel he had anything to lose by leaving. Although for Truman, leaving means saying goodbye to everyone you knew and loved, your community and your home, and your identity. And it means something, that for Sargent all these things are not a motivation to stay: when you are angry and feel that you have been cheated and pushed aside, it is much easier for you to leave.

When you find the door in the sky, but your world gives you meaning, appreciation and community, like the community of stochists gives them, you think twice before you open the door.

More of the topic in Hayadan:

92 תגובות

  1. What this "boring blog" is talking about is that there are different methods of gaining knowledge. There is the scientific method, which works, and the method which does not work, of "why should I believe anyone at all?". This is exactly the method of the stochists, and I don't know of any case of a human being who used it and came up with some kind of invention, or a correct prediction about the world, or anything else except confusion and mistakes that an educated person can easily avoid.
    The answer to your question, if you're really looking for an answer, is that when viewed on a small scale the water appears flat, and on a large scale the curvature has an effect. However (caution! complexity!) there is a phenomenon, that in certain situations the light is refracted near water sources and therefore it is possible to see beyond the curvature. The phenomenon has been known to science at least since the 19th century and has explanations. There are also countless other experiments in which it is possible to measure the curvature, not to mention countless other proofs and other calculations that rely on it (calculations that work, in contrast to 100% of the theories of the stochists who deliberately refrain from offering theories that can be tested).
    The very fact that people even imagine that there is such a phenomenon that science has never studied or cannot explain is delusional to anyone who has a faint idea of ​​how science works.
    If you want to read more about the phenomenon you asked about, you are welcome here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment
    Of course you can also "think on your own" and watch videos of uneducated people on YouTube who think that based on an experiment and a half they did they will disprove hundreds of years of systematic and orderly scientific research.
    If you really want "at least some brains", what's so bad about trying to learn from qualified sources? From people who have actually studied the material and understand what they are talking about, and can also prove it?
    I invite you to ask yourself this question. Why do you prefer to "learn" from uneducated conspirators rather than from people who have invested time and energy in learning about the world and reaching correct conclusions.

  2. This whole boring blog only talks about why should I believe such a person or another person, why should I believe anyone at all? What's the problem with opening your mind a little and accepting your own position?, I don't define myself as a Flattist and I don't associate myself with any group that believes in one thing or another, but there are claims that are worth considering and instead of dealing mainly with nonsense, why would they lie about what pilots They won't say why here and why there, it still doesn't touch the subject, the only thing that raised questions for me about the shape of the world is the law of interlocking vessels, even in Wikipedia they admit that the water level is uniform, search for the law of interlocking vessels on Google and you will enter the Wikipedia page, the sea itself inevitably makes me wonder Regarding the shape of the world, a question I ask again and again and don't get a satisfactory answer is how water in a glass is flat, water in a pool is flat, water in the Sea of ​​Galilee is flat (checked), why would the ocean be round? It really raises difficult questions for me and I no longer know what to think, that everyone should try to challenge their brain and decide for themselves what they think about the subject without relying on this or that pilot or on this or that body.

  3. Perhaps the researchers should re-examine the fact that the light rays are not affected by gravity and get a deviation that allows you to see a little beyond the curvature
    Apart from the fact that you can see beyond the curvature, the Stochists have no other logical claim.
    And in this matter they are really right, you can see beyond the curve.
    So science must give an answer to this fact.
    And maybe it will be found that the force of gravity deflects the light rays so that you can see a little after the curvature.
    I have no better explanation.
    Science should really give its opinion on this problem

  4. Mark Sargent is the mayor of the Stochist community, so he has no reason to really investigate and leave his "city".

  5. Education education and once again education. Without an orderly, coherent and interesting education, ignorance will destroy the educated societies which in turn will destroy the modern world and science.
    Today there is a challenge to the qualified and traditional sources of education: the parents and the school frameworks, there is the Internet that opens an uncontrolled and unregulated window that allows direct access to the minds of innocent people who fill their sweet heads with many kilograms of delusional crap from other retards that broadcast on the Internet.

  6. Almog, this article is from a year and a half ago. Since then the group has grown by 6000. They will continue to speak, and the truth will break forth.

  7. I just made up a conspiracy theory myself, and it's fun! Try and enjoy:
    Chapter One
    The truth (which is not revealed to you) is that there is no such thing as "electricity". The reason why the secret world government decided to "invent electricity" was that people began to notice that the world operated by the power of magic, and things operated against the laws of physics that were legal at the time. There was a fear that people who understood the truth would rebel against the great wizards.
    To distract the people from the power of magic they "invented" the "electricity", and thus the world government allowed itself continued control. In practical terms, it would be possible to continue to enslave the people to "electrical" consumer products that actually work with the magic power of the great wizards. Obviously, this comment is also written on a real magic computer, and not on the fake "electrical" product.
    If you have real magic computers you are welcome to write the continuation of this secret history

  8. I stopped reading from the moment 6000 people in the group of the Israeli flat earth 'ran away' from you

  9. I read an article that people who claim the Nablus and Arab conspiracies suffer from a mental disorder. Does anyone remember what this disorder is called? These are the same people who think they put a tracking chip in the corona vaccine and think they didn't land on the moon. Think what a miserable life these people have

  10. To Moses,
    How many "proofs" that the earth is flat do I need to see and disprove to be done with it? ten? century? Thousand?
    And if I do that, will it change anything?
    In one of my debates in the group I tried to push someone into a corner and have him choose one thing that if I disproved him he would be convinced that the earth is round. He sent a picture of the sky that he had taken and challenged me to explain to him the angle of refraction of the sun's rays.
    There is no end to it, and anyway that was not my point in this article, which deals with the scientific *method* of the Stochists, which fails precisely because of these things.
    If you want answers to the arguments of flatists, here are some:
    https://alaxon.co.il/article/%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%A2-%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/

    But I promise you that if you try to convince people they will just come up with new arguments.

  11. Although I agree that the earth is round, the whole article you say that the stochists are evasive
    And here comes some "matan" and offers you to show him a simple spectacle in front of your eyes - water with a different level
    And here you and all the commenters suddenly behave exactly as you described - either avoid and say it's a waste of time or try to explain by drawing from another case and not in front of your eyes.

    It should be seemingly simple if that's the reality so go for it and show us all what you care about Matan, there are other people who would be happy to see. (Aww, you're not sure that's true?)

  12. Why are you surprised that there are people who believe that the earth is flat?
    People to this day live according to religious laws and Bible books because they have an imaginary friend who will save them from hell.
    It seems to me that believing that the earth is flat is a little less psychic than a whole world that continues to pray to their imaginary friend, murder for him, steal in his name and rule the world...
    If you didn't understand, humans are stupid and live in delusions and illusions because it's convenient for them.
    Overall, it was fun to read the article.
    I myself did a physics assignment in high school a few years ago, and I floated this claim in front of the class, even then it was amusing and even then it was very easy to disprove the crazy nonsense.
    I wish people would invest so much effort in loving and giving and creating a better world - instead of wasting time on nonsense they invent.

  13. Yes, a super weird theory and supported by a very basic misunderstanding.
    There's some degenerate named Marcos Franco who brings a law like interlocking dishes claiming that water doesn't curve (of course, in an experiment the size of a sink or bathtub you really can't see curvature), never mind, they're talking nonsense, that's clear.
    What bothers me is why we (including me), after realizing who we are dealing with, still continue to argue with them, what is the problem with us?

  14. It's just amazing that I joined this group also to understand what is behind them and I got exactly the same impression as yours. I've argued with people in the comments on posts that made simply ridiculous arguments and answered throughout the debate in a respectful way and supported by scientific (and logical) facts.
    The people there are simply disconnected (and apparently very bored and also quite strange, a small tour of their profile pictures showed a very, very clear tape of people who look/speak/dress very, very similar) and motivated by a religious motive based on Kabbalah.
    Of course, of course, after 4 hours the manager, whose name is Keshet to the best of my memory, blocked me from the page 🙂
    It was really fun to get their information from them and it was hilarious to hear their nonsense. I was completely educated and watched a few more videos myself to try to understand where they were getting this idea from and overall it was very entertaining. It's amazing how developed this theory is and to what extremes they went to prove their claims that are based purely on words without relying on any physical law but only on "observations".
    Oh and importantly, gravity in their opinion is one big lie. What fun it was there, I have no words, how much I enjoyed it lol.

  15. You are wasting time to make their life a little more difficult and not that much. These are holocaust supporters and vaccine opponents, whose secret code of conduct in order to join their community is to believe that the earth is flat.
    They take advantage of this to convince people to enter Telegram groups and all kinds of uncensored means of communication and then say what they really believe come.

  16. That the "ball" will be in the shape of a hippopotamus' butt...
    Not better?!..
    Does anyone here care?!..

  17. Good eye show
    1 simple experiment go to the beach in Netanya at sunset you see the sun gradually disappear from below (no matter its size) until it disappears completely at the same moment look back and you see that the shadow on the cliff and the tall buildings rises to
    that darkens

    2 Any flatlist is invited to explain the moon shows

  18. I recommend to every "stokhist" to do the simplest experiment, which can be done every day when there are no clouds. Just go towards the evening to the seaside, and watch what we all call "sunset" - and not for nothing...

    If during that "sunset" he sees that the sun simply "shrinks" and looks like a smaller and smaller ball until it is no longer visible - then it is a sign that the stochastic theory is correct. But if, on the other hand, the sun remains the same size, and simply "sets" beyond the horizon - first the lower part, then half, then three quarters, and finally the upper chopchik - then it is a sign that the sun is not "moving away" but remains At exactly the same distance, it just disappears beyond the curvature of the earth...

    And speaking of the "curvature of the earth" - someone up here wrote that he wanted "proof that water curves contrary to the law of interlocking vessels"... well, water can do many things, and it is very flexible, but the most common thing it does is to be pulled down, towards the center of a sphere The earth, in accordance with Newton's laws of gravity that were improved by Einstein... in fact, the "law of interlocking vessels" is also based on this "force" of gravity... and since the earth is a sphere, and water is drawn to its center from every point equally, then to those looking from space it looks as if They "curve" around the ball...

    Anyway, if there's one thing the stochists have been able to prove, it's Einstein's old theory that human stupidity is infinite...

  19. Go on a journey west, all the time exactly west (on latitude), where will you end up??
    back to the starting point. This can only happen on a circle (on the surface of our sphere)

  20. The reason we are wasting precious time on them is because this is a symptom of a much more serious disease - those who spread conspiracy theories even if they did not invent them, as in the issue of the denial of the corona and the climate, want to achieve one thing, the content of the conspiracies is less important to them - they want the public to lose faith in science. it's dangerous. On the way to the Middle Ages.

  21. One of the signs of intellectual and scientific maturity is: the cessation of dealing with the whole subject of "the people who claim that the earth is flat".
    These people are a negligible minority, are not in any key positions, do not influence the lives of the normative community.
    There is no reason to waste precious time on them.

  22. Contrary to what is claimed, all of us (those who studied science) were brought up not to accept things as they are (those who studied know what I'm talking about)
    Rather, a spur to check, to investigate, to try for oneself, to calculate, to concoct, to invent, to come up with a thesis, to reason, to prove it while sleeping.
    The professors who taught with us were furious if we declared even for a moment - "That's the way it is".
    "That's how it is" is not science and research declared from all sides.
    Prove it, see the path you took to reach the result.
    And yes, we also researched the topic in question back and forth.
    Angles of light, perspective, seasons, directions of rotation of storms in other parts of the globe, observations with space telescopes, sensitive smart gyroscopes and simple pendulums.
    Everything passed the test and woe betide those who sneered at the issue.
    Moreover, we were presented with challenging questions in front of the findings we reached that would have brought us back to the starting point.
    We all tried to build a flat model in which the sun illuminates only half of the disc in a way that would correspond to day and night as we know it every day, to find a way to explain how the sun that moves over the disc and comes from thousands of kilometers away does not come from a point of light that grows bigger and bigger to a ball of fire that passes over our head and then again getting farther and farther into a tiny point of light that disappears on the horizon as it darkens.
    Finally!!!
    Everything but the generalization supported only one thing earth is a sphere - only in the model of the earth being a sphere, all the phenomena known to us from simple observation worked.
    In all the others it was necessary to change the model to fit phenomenon A but then did not fit phenomenon B and so on.

    It has already been proven by many good people from a deep examination of a psychological, sociological and other section that the belief in a flat earth often (not always) stems from a psychological need.
    Sometimes rebellious, kicking at all theories and insights brought forth by major parties, establishment, governments, bodies with high power and capital, etc. (automatically).
    Sometimes it is even necessary to be a part of something bigger and to receive sympathy and content.
    to belong to a group.
    And several other reasons.
    That's why, for example, you won't find any senior engineer, world-renowned scientist, who declares that the earth is flat.
    One last thing, on the subject of scaring people.
    There is such a thing called "Confession of an Ers Davi" a very well known phenomenon of people who know a big secret and their conscience does not allow them to take it to the grave and they confess knowing that they have nothing to lose anyway in a few days.
    How come there aren't any?

  23. Lali Isaac,
    Another conspiracy that is not talked about is cooking shows.
    I see how to prepare really delicious and beautiful things, I try at home and it turns out ugly and not tasty!
    What is most infuriating is that people I know also participate in the conspiracy and say that theirs did turn out well.

  24. Hi to me,
    Your calculation is correct but that is not the question. The question is, if you look from zero altitude beyond the curve, how high will your line of sight be from the ground after 13 km?
    This can also be calculated with Pythagoras: you draw a right-angled triangle with one side having a radius of 13 km, the other side XNUMX km (line of sight), and calculate the length of the excess (which runs between the center of the earth and the edge of the line of sight).
    It turns out that the remaining radius is approximately 13 meters long.

  25. to Dothan Rice,
    Regarding the calculation of the height hidden by the Sea of ​​Galilee - why go to the calculation that is performed on the site, for a calculation that can simply be done by Pythagoras?
    Radius as a destination 6400 km (approximately)
    The Sea of ​​Galilee is 13 km wide
    A triangle was built from the line running from end to end, and two shanks from the two ends to the center as the center.
    The perpendicular from the center of Kedova to the center of the Sea of ​​Galilee is 6399.9966 km long, 3.3 meters shorter than the radius.
    Is there any mistake in this simple calculation?

    If you prove that it is 13 meters, maybe I too will start to doubt the strange theory that the earth is indeed round.. 🙂

  26. Zormiel opposes Kadurel and Stochal (;
    In such a complex existence where things change all the time and yet there are also constant things, therefore I try to stick to representativeness, because after all we all fall short of fully understanding what is happening here.
    There is the comfort in believing what is common and there is the discomfort in believing what a minority believes and there is the discomfort in the debate between the parties and the comfort in believing that "I know".
    No one knows. Lots of theories/facts that don't really change are presented here on both sides compared to important facts we have achieved so far such as for example what is a cell and what is a plant and what is an organ and how do they function and what are the important elements and how to create an ideal and efficient life here.

    My simple and honest opinion is - it is important to understand that there are many tricks and lies in man's debt and that it is good to have two or more sides to the theories - the form - and this is so that - the movement - does not get bored and we do not believe everything we are told and heard no matter how many people have adopted it. We all hold on to things because the hidden is greater than the visible and will probably and will always remain so.
    Self-interested corporations with power and economic existential fear until self-interested people with power and existential fear exist together and support each other, and in order to take broad responsibility for our actions and move towards ideals and wise use of material in order to live in peace we have a way to go and as long as we maintain a common interest in We see each other living a better life and that's what we all deserve, we can dispel the harsh system and moderate the damages that have ended here in our existence.

    We are fed up with powerful world rich people who permeate us with ways of life that cause a lot of diseases, and the times will soon come when we can honestly develop technologically and every debate will sweeten our existence so that we do not have to bow down and bow before those forces, we do not have to send men like pesticides to die for our ideas and we do not torture women like wild animals to demonstrate our powers and we will not use children as sprouts to prolong our lives.

    On an optimistic note, I will end with this - all for the best!
    If you will only believe, it has a strong power and it applies despite any difficulty we experience. Keep your insistence on this belief and the sharpness of your thinking for a pleasant and safe existence for all of us.

    Hello Alikum

  27. Is this also a conspiracy?
    1) I have always learned that there is a connection between electricity and magnetism.
    I learned that if electricity flows through an electrical wire and a compass approaches the wire, then the compass needle will move.
    So one day I decided to check it out.
    The compass needle did not move at all!
    So I also tried twisting the electric wire (which turns on a lamp) around itself and that didn't work either
    affected the compass needle at all.
    2) In this context, one more thing. If an electric current creates magnetism around it
    So how do you say that there are conductors on which the current passes through without energy losses on the way.
    The resulting magnetism can move something, so there is probably energy here that needs to be invested.
    3) I read in the past that animal fat was used in the past for lighting, by lighting a fire.
    So I took meat with white fat and tried to light the white fat and it just wouldn't light!
    4) Regarding the question of whether the earth is round, I have no idea. I just hear people's opinions
    On the subject and "proofs" and photographs that people from different camps bring. But I didn't check myself!
    Really interesting if one day I will get a definitive answer on the subject.
    Eli Isaac is a private Python teacher, a private java teacher, a private c teacher at an academic level
    https://eisaak123.wixsite.com/privatelessons

  28. Oh that's great
    There is psychology, control techniques and consciousness in the article - everything just doesn't work and it's really amusing, because you see that you are being stressed.
    First of all we will write 21 lines that try to make the people of the flat world "psychotic" and then slowly we will try to soften the facts we bring.
    For example, you wrote:
    "But this is an obvious trap: if you check and don't see the ships, this will only prove that the binoculars are not suitable"
    Can your honor take a live photo for us of a case where the ship recedes to the point where you can't see it with the naked eye, and then come with a nikkon 900 and not pick it up? What you describe is a hypothetical case, because it just doesn't fucking happen.
    Every time!!! 100/100 – 1000/1000 – 100000000/10000000 cases you do the experiment, you will always see the ship.

    And all those who sneer here are either crazy or suffering from institutional brain damage, probably from the aluminum in the routine vaccines. And there is almost no vaccine without aluminum. Let's solve that too. This is Christopher Exley - check the websites who he is... he is the only brain surgeon who analyzed 5 brains of deceased babies. And this is a man that people have been fighting for decades and he says: the vaccines are good!!! After finding a crazy amount of aluminum in all the brains, he realized that only from vaccines comes so much aluminum in the brain. How will aluminum reach a child who was vaccinated and died at the age of two???
    He understands why he pushed for so many years... look...
    And to the honorable Dothan Rice I say: You and I and all the people of the real land know the truth. I'm not interested in your ajanga, I'm just telling you... that one day you'll go up (similar to the movie you saw, I'll add) when you're between the devil and the demons, tell them Golan sent you.
    And to the people who scoff without hearing the claims
    If you buy an 84 Delta and only get advice from someone who drove this car and loved it, how will you know the truth. The difference between a civilized person with a consciousness between good and bad and the most idiotic production on the planet is the ability to accommodate, accept to hear opinions and finally decide everything.
    You are more stupid than the bacteria that are on the hole that the monkey - (from which man evolved, of course, and suddenly consciousness and the distinction between good and evil landed on the monkey, he invented electricity and technology hahahahaha monkey!!) Even the bacteria on the hole have a logical legality without special laws and they behave according to the laws of nature.
    Every single one of the scorners here is as stupid as the donkey that sticks to the toilet and refuses to come out unless pushed with the brush. It is possible not to understand, to question, to get to the bottom of a person's mind, but not to underestimate a pile of sheep. Ahhh monkeys.
    Nachmatan Gorodish, who responded here, I am saying that if there is a conflict, there is 5000 shekels on you
    Put the garbage pile here too??? seen???

  29. Precisely in the theory of the redundant there is the theory of "Roman" membranes, which assume that the entire universe is flat and it is actually a flat membrane and the three dimensions are a projection that our brain creates - like a hologram.
    This strange theory is pretty well anchored in mathematics (mathematics that I don't understand that much, but it's not something delusional like the hallucinations of these flat people, but completely scientific)

  30. It would be more beneficial to all of us if scientists would invest time in researching which genes cause the mental fatigue of the flat earth groups, anti-vaccines, believers in imaginary friends, astrology amulets and more..
    What they all have in common is belief in some imaginary story over facts.
    Maybe they will find a cure or at least screening tests that will reduce the transmission of the genetic defects to future generations.
    Trying to understand them is a futile effort that may be possible to do in the framework of mental therapy but will be less helpful to all of humanity.

  31. Hi to me,
    I don't know how you calculated, but from 13 kilometers it should be 13 meters. There are online calculators.
    The explanation for the experiment that Matan is talking about appears in the link that Noam mentions there, to the Bedford Level experiment.

    But in my opinion, arguments about specific scientific experiments miss the point. For example in this case - the scientific explanation here is quite strange and non-intuitive. The question is - so what?
    The round earth theory has countless proofs, and it is confirmed day by day and hour by hour when it is used in many types of research that create successful predictions about the world.
    The flat earth theory is hardly a theory - it doesn't have two different supporters who believe in the same model, and it doesn't have any model that explains more than a few sporadic phenomena, let alone *all* (or a significant part of) the phenomena, and certainly you can't make any predictions about anything from it .

    So I'm willing to admit the fun of this very specific experiment when it happens under certain conditions, the flat earth explanation is simpler. But it takes a pretty deep lack of understanding of how science should work to think it proves anything.

  32. To provide,
    Filled in all the weird ideas, but at least the math would be right.
    At 13 kilometers, the middle of the section will hide a total of 3.3 meters from the other side, if you looked from 0 height.
    If you stood one meter above the Sea of ​​Galilee, your eyes would be 2.6 meters above the Sea of ​​Galilee (for an average man), and the center of the Sea of ​​Galilee would hide 70 cm above the shoreline.
    I'm sure you can easily notice it from a distance of 13 kilometers..
    If necessary, my son in the fourth grade will be happy to explain the calculation to you.
    (I admit, I used Excel. Surely the wicked Microsoft introduced a distortion in the calculation, so that I wouldn't get the correct measurement)

  33. So the earth is not flat.
    And the Jews did not commit 9/11.
    And no one killed the electric car (we see now ourselves).
    But there is a situation that Elvis Presley is alive, and if someone can tell me where he appears I will be very grateful :-;

  34. Thanks Noam for the links, because we have to admit that the videos of Matan and his friends from the Kinneret raise questions about the curvature of the earth.

    The explanation - refraction, atmospheric reflection - is not clear from the outset, and it is a shame that (as far as I know) a little later experiments were not conducted to demonstrate the phenomenon.

    Note also that Hampden, the stochastic who lost the intervention with the globalist, went to jail because he threatened to kill him, which raises sad thoughts about our personal safety in these kinds of discussions.

  35. Dotan, thank you very much for this article, it is fascinating on an anthropological and psychological level! This can be a basis for research on the human mind and how a human can believe unfounded lies of himself and his false community.
    I enjoyed reading every word, I wish every "Stochist" to get out of this sect as soon as possible.

  36. Matan and his group of stochists reproduce a well-known experiment whose results have already been explained:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment
    But they "forget" to mention it

    And here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6UxAfNU5RU
    Yehuda Ben Haim has already answered the allegations.

    But Matan does not want to refer to the thousand proofs that God is round.
    He also doesn't want proof of why the experiment isn't wrong.
    He wants a debate.
    And not with Yehuda ben Haim, or Nouriel... only with Dotan.
    Well Matan, to refresh your memory that has probably gone through difficult days - debate is a tool for Trumpists, and especially for Trump himself. It is not a tool recognized by the scientific community.

  37. And if the donkey claims to be a horse, do I have to torture him?
    From an even intuitive understanding it is possible to understand that a sphere is a perfect shape and the rotation of a sphere gives stability to the masses hanging in space. It's shockingly simple, either you understand or all options are open. A spinning top, a porphyra of old, as long as it rotates around an axis, it is stable and outlines routes. And as the spin fades, stability is lost.
    Every flattist is invited to take with him an ordinary household sink and a sufficient amount of water and rush to the equator. As you know, the water rotates in the sink during draining, and always in the same direction. And if they cross the equator, the direction of rotation in the sink will be reversed. The phenomenon is caused by the rotation of the earth around its axis, how is this possible, a conspiracy?

  38. A question for Bar (and the rest of the flat earth believers): According to what you wrote and according to the map of the flat earth, the sun shines at any time and in any place. When it sinks, it goes under the disc (or away, depending on who you ask). So how can it be that when I was in New York and I talked to my parents in Israel on a video call, it was 10 at night for them, even though it was 3 in the afternoon for me and it was daylight outside? After all, when the sun goes down, there should be darkness everywhere, right?

  39. Wow, well done for your patience!
    I was not mentally capable of dealing with such delusional people like that.
    And how do they live in a world where everyone around them is deceiving them all the time?
    (The same goes for the opponents of vaccines of all kinds - how can they go to doctors whose aim is to deceive them??)

  40. All the people of the conspiracies their level of proof for the things they believe in is very low, it is enough that it is written, on the other hand their level of proof for the things they do not believe is impossible, when you present them with an expert's argument they ask to know who was their grandmother's obstetrician.

  41. Idiot who thinks we are a ball moving in space at speeds and many regrets... I won't even expand

  42. What is the problem here? Some people are bored, who need a hobby or a group to talk to, no matter what nonsense..., it's better that they use their imagination, than to beat their family, etc...??

  43. What happened Dotan, are you scared? You wrote down thousands of words at a high academic level, but you're not interested in debating? Why? If you are so sure of your righteousness and the heliocentric model why are you afraid tell me?
    I've known Noriel for years and have been arguing with him for years, and he doesn't interest me.
    You are interesting to me and the platform of the scientist where you posted the article - "News site in the field of science in the Hebrew language" is interesting to me.

    Now, show your unprofessionalism, and the main thing is that you write thousands of words that are killing us.
    According to your science, already in 1 km distance there is 8 cm of curvature! And in 4 km distance there is already 125 cm of curvature. That is, the same child who studies in the fourth grade has already disappeared in a curve 4 km away.
    So you want to tell me "it is very difficult to measure curvature on a small scale"??????
    What a lack of professionalism you show, and you have written thousands of words that kill us.
    The width of the Sea of ​​Galilee is 13 km - the curvature in 13 km according to science is 13 meters. coming back again 13 meters. This thing is equivalent to a 4 story building!
    (I gave you a discount and did not take into account the length of the Kinneret which is 21 km, then the curvature at this distance is 34 meters, we were a 10-story building).
    So you want to tell me that you can't measure curvature and you can't measure curved water for me because "it's very difficult to measure curvature on a small scale"? Are you telling me that a 4 story building is hard to measure?
    In North Kinneret if you look south, or in South Kinneret if you look north, you see the entire 13 km width of the Kinneret. So tell me Dotan, what is the problem with measuring curved water? There should be a curve from end to end of 13 meters! You have written thousands of high words, why can't you bring me proof of a child in the fourth grade that the sky bends in the Sea of ​​Galilee?

    So that's why I'm asking you again - can you measure me a curved water?

    And regarding the horizon line - why don't you answer my question? Do you think I didn't understand you? I understood you very well. And so I asked you - that you claim that a ship disappears on the horizon because of the curvature, is the horizon line that raises the ship - a flat line or a curved line? And of course you won't answer me, because the thousands of words you wrote in this article, the answer to my simple question is ……the horizon line is straight, lol.

    So again for the fourth time - talk to the captains of science, and let's have a debate in front of a live audience. You can bring whoever you want (including Noreal) but it will be on the platform of a "News site in the field of science in the Hebrew language".
    am waiting
    giving

  44. giving,
    I will write again what I said but in a simpler way:
    1. Nourial Efrati commented below saying he is willing to debate with you. I'm not interested. So you are welcome to do with him. You said I could bring a scientist? I'm bringing Noriel.
    2. I gave you an explanation why it is very difficult to measure the curvature of water on a small scale, and you are now telling me that the explanation is not acceptable because it No "3th grade level"? I don't do "debates" at the fourth grade level, with all due respect. What kind of argument is it that basic geometry should not be used? So I want you to prove to me that the earth is flat without using the letter S or the number XNUMX.

    Regarding the horizon line - you did not understand well.
    I'm stopping the discussion with you now. Want a debate? Talk to Noriel.
    If there was an orderly theory of a flat earth and we could agree on basic principles (like geometry!) it would be possible to have a discussion. But unfortunately this is not the case.

  45. Sorry Dotan, I still don't understand you - are you ready to have a court style debate with me? Yes or No. And I want it to be here on the scientist's platform and you can bring any scientist you want.

    And regarding the task you brought me - sorry, I'm only at the fourth grade level. In the XNUMXth grade, they learn about the law of interlocking vessels that the water is always at the same level, and they don't study sides or radius.
    And so he asks you again as if in a court of law: "Can Dotan please measure me the curved sky?" Does that mean the sky doesn't show him a level?" This is a XNUMXth grade question, and I expect you to answer it please in the debate.

    In conclusion of my words, you wrote: "If it is a scientific debate, I propose to do it on the beach while ships move away and disappear beyond the curvature of the earth (the body disappears before the mast). The matter will be over very quickly and we can go have a beer."
    So maybe I didn't understand well, but when you see these ships moving away, remind me do you see the horizon in a straight line or a curved line?

    Come on, be a man, let's have a debate on the platform of science.

  46. Hi Matan.
    Read my previous comment again.
    And also those of Noriel and Noam.

    In preparation for the debate with Nouriel, which I'm sure you won't run away from, I suggest the following:
    Check the radius of the earth according to the sphere theory.
    Draw an equilateral triangle whose base length is the length of a swimming pool, and whose sides are the length of the Earth's radius.
    Now move a vertical line from the apex to the base and continue it so that it is the same length as the radius.
    Now you can calculate how much curvature you are likely to see in a swimming pool, according to theory.
    If you have instruments that are accurate enough, check if you can find this curvature.
    (I'll spare you, it turns out that the center of the pool is higher by about 0.02 centimeters)

  47. as a brother in the Masonic Order
    I am proud to tell you that there is no conspiracy

    It's good for movies and thrillers and nothing more

    Keep believing in a shadow government and a flat country
    A perfume for you

  48. hi bar,
    Brings you back to the part in the article where I said that the Stochists are not trying to create a uniform and consistent theory, and therefore their theory can never be disproved.
    Almost all the people I talked to believe that there is a transparent dome above the earth and the sun moves on it in circles (as in the picture at the top of the page).
    If you talk to them and settle on one theory that you all agree on, it will be possible to talk.
    I don't have the time and patience that for every argument I bring someone will come up with a theory that fits only this argument and I will have to disprove it.

  49. At the level of explaining the psychological motives, the article is very successful, but there is no scientific reference to the ten main claims of the stochists and their answers, according to science in a clear way

  50. I'm an anti-stochist and I'm proud of it, and I don't need scientific proof that the earth is spherical because I have my own eyes
    A. In my telescope I see other planets Venus, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and also the moon and they are all spherical simply so are we
    B. You see a little curvature when flying high in a passenger plane.
    third. Yes, a ship that moves away, its masts disappear

    d. They say that the heliocenters are trying to whitewash the existence of God, I am a religious and believing person, and it is clearly written in the Zuber that the world is built like a sphere as follows:
    'Every settlement rolls around in a circle like a ball (the whole settlement - that is, the world and humanity on it - rolls around in a circle like a ball) I am in the bottom and I am in the top (these - that is, some of them - live below, at the bottom of the sphere, and those above) Ether and Ether, and Kaimin in his existence as the other sons of Nesha. (And all these creatures - who live in the different parts of the globe - differ in their appearance - in their color, in the appearance of their faces, and the like - due to the change of weather, like the weather of each and every place. However, they stand like other human beings). And on Da Eit Ether Bishova (and therefore there is a place in the world) as a nahir lalin, dark lalin. Lalin Yamama, and Lalin Lalia. (When it is light for these, darkness for these. Day for these, and night for these) And with Ether Dcholia Yamma, and no man will forget her Lilia Bar in the day of Hada Zaira. (And there is a place in the world that is always lit and night will not be found in it except for a short time) etc. Thus it is written (so it is written) I praise you because your deeds are terrible and wonderful (Tahilim Kelt) and Raza Da it was handed over to Marihun Dagkhmata (and this secret was handed over to those with wisdom - the wisdom of the Torah)."

    Zohar the Holy (Vikira page XNUMX:XNUMX)

    I have yet to receive a reasonable argument that the world is flat other than the fact that there are bored people who must be different in something from others so they found such a movement that would set them apart

    May there be a thousand for health, I don't think you should be stoned, on the contrary, I'm glad you exist to stimulate discussion and develop critical thinking

  51. We will continue where the "trial" stopped:

    Matan: "The fact that you don't answer the simple question, that is, there is no such measurement of non-curving water, I hope you understand that if there is no measurement of non-curving water, that means there is no curvature, that means there is no sphere, and that means there is no Earth. Do you understand the meaning of your non-answer?"
    Dotan is still speechless.

    Matan: "You see, Your Honor, this is how I have been smashing all his lies and those of the other scientists for 4.5 years now"

    judge:
    "Matan, I see you didn't read the court's requirements before you arrived.
    Dotan does not know if the experiment you are requesting has been done, and neither do I.
    He does know of a lot of news that proves his claim.
    When there are 1000 ways to prove a claim, scientists don't prove in all the ways but choose the easiest way.
    Sometimes, as in the case of particle accelerators, the easiest way to prove it will still be very, very complicated.
    Therefore, you must bring experimental results that prove your claim, and if there is one - we will have to go through the experiments of both sides and see which one is wrong."

  52. Correction of a clerical error to my previous message - obviously referring to the measurement of curved water

  53. Hello Matan. My name is Nouriel Efrati and I ripped all 52 episodes of lectures about your flat world the form, and I will continue to rip what you publish in the future. I invite you to a live debate in front of a live audience wherever you choose. You can bring with you any scientist or scientists you want. are you ready am waiting

  54. When it is impossible to answer the claims of the Stochists, they look for various ad hoc claims.
    The writer of the article did not really try to put a mirror in front of the heliocentric model and understand that it is completely ridiculous and does not work with the reality of the world.
    And instead he tried to sneer at the stochastics who are looking for answers themselves to a model that is being reassembled after generations of concealment.
    Spinning ball cultists forget that every Flattist was like them in the past.
    We also believed in the religion of the god Helios and the spinning ball created in his name.
    But we investigated the issue in depth and it came crashing down like a house of cards.
    Those who want to know the truth check it without fear of the consequences of what they discover.

  55. Good week Dotan.
    I did not understand. Aren't you ready to debate me?
    You can bring any scientist or scientists you want.

    This debate will be in the style of a court - we would have to show evidence.
    In the beginning, one side is the category - and the other side has to answer clear and concrete questions. and then change.
    And that's how you do it on 5 subjects.

    I will give an example:
    Matan Gorodish: "Dotan, can you show me a measurement proof, and I emphasize, on the measurement of curving water? That is, the water level shows a different height and not according to the law of interlocking vessels which says that the level is always on the same line?"
    Dotan: "But you see pictures of the earth and water curving!"
    Matan: "Dotan, please answer the question for me. Asking again: Can you show me proof of measurement, and I emphasize, of measurement of curving water? That is, a different water level that contradicts the Law of Interlocked Vessels?"
    Dotan: "But you see that a ship disappears through the curve!"
    The debate judge: "Dotan, please answer Matan's concrete question." He didn't ask you about pictures and he didn't ask you about a ship. He asked you a simple question, is there a measurement of water that does not bend?"
    Dotan thinks and thinks and thinks and does not answer.
    Matan: "The fact that you don't answer the simple question, that is, there is no such measurement of non-curving water, I hope you understand that if there is no measurement of non-curving water, that means there is no curvature, that means there is no sphere, and that means there is no Earth. Do you understand the meaning of your non-answer?"
    Dotan is still speechless.

    And so Dotan, I have been smashing all your lies and those of the other scientists of the false heliocentric model for 4.5 years. At the fourth grade level. Because once you don't have a measurement of arching water, you don't have Earth.

    So I ask again - are you ready to debate me? On 5 different subjects just like in court as I described above.

    am waiting

  56. a few questions
    If the world is flat why is it a secret?
    And why is it forbidden to fly over Antarctica?

  57. I really don't want to sound condescending and I'm not, but I have a hard time understanding the flood of comments in the article that deals with the question of whether the earth is flat..

    I'm interested in technology, not psychology.

  58. Fascinating article, thanks!
    But: replace the argument "the earth is flat" with the argument "God exists" and you will find exactly the same kind of illogicality, of ignoring basic facts, of arrogance "you need to learn a lot more". That is, both arguments are equally ridiculous. The difference is that the belief in the flat earth, in itself, is harmless nonsense; But belief in God has caused countless wars and indescribable suffering to humanity, and continues to do so.

  59. You are hugely wrong. Although the country is flat, the sun does not disappear at night because of the distance. Rather, it turns under the surface of the earth and returns again in the east. I don't understand what's wrong with that? The sun arrives in the east in the morning, rises up and sets in the west, disappears from the surface because it is on the other side of the surface, and then returns in the east. Quite simple mathematical calculations show the correctness of this. There are many astronomical errors that for years were not solved until Einstein (who also did not solve) compared to the flat model solves most astronomical problems

  60. I saw Matan Gorodish's invitation to the "debate".
    Steven Novella, one of the leaders of the scientific librarian community in the US, participated in many such debates, and his insights are:
    - There is no point in having a debate with a conspirator/pseudo-scientist. This is a win-win situation for the other side: in the end, they are not interested in the information you provide, but are only looking for the appropriate sound byte, the sentence that will be taken out of context and resonate further. Like this pilot who said that the clouds are flat (who says, by the way, that they lack uniqueness). No matter if the pilot declares that he knows the world is a ball, they will continue to echo those three words forever as "proof".
    - There is no intellectual fairness in these discussions. The goal of the other side is not to understand but to win, the opposite of a real scientific debate. Stephen compares it to a game of dove - you on your turn move a piece and then she somehow gets on the board and drops the pieces.
    - Such a debate will be continuous in moving the targets. Every time you try to seriously answer the topic being discussed, the other party will immediately shift the focus to something else. Those who are not skilled in this type of debates will quickly find themselves exhausted, frustrated, and regretting the moment they started...

  61. Hi Yuri,
    "This handful just doesn't hurt anyone"
    This handful act in the same way as anti-vaccines, climate deniers and corona deniers, and in many cases these are the same people.
    If it had ended in the flat earth and the snowman's house, oh well.
    The more such people there are, the more significant their power becomes, so I hope you are wrong and that there is something to be done.

  62. For a long time, this thing (belief in various conspiracy theories) would have been treated like a mental disorder, which is actually what it is according to psychiatrists, but this handful simply doesn't harm anyone. These people will live all their lives in ignorance and that's it, really sad, but there's nothing to be done!

  63. You wrote really well Dotan!
    It reminded me a lot of the idea behind cults - the idea of ​​us and them - which I first heard about here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFLEMjru77A

    The idea that the cult is not suitable for everyone, people have to want to belong and believe in the set of beliefs within the cult
    The idea that anyone who is outside the cult in principle is either wrong, or intentionally misleading is part of the idea of ​​a cult as it is a cult
    The Stochists are a good and quite extreme example of what you have to believe in order to belong

  64. Hi Ron.
    "A fool is a person who has never studied the geocentric model"
    If you studied the geocentric model you would know that according to it the earth is round.
    And if you read the article before commenting you would know that.

  65. A fool is a person who has never studied the geocentric model.
    Friends, keep thinking that you live on a ball of water in space that spins at 4 different speeds
    And in Australia they go the opposite way.

  66. The rule is very simple. The first question should always be "What does it take to convince you that you are wrong?"
    When the answer is "impossible", then obviously there is no one to talk to.

  67. Hey infidel.
    Believing that the earth is round does not make someone smart, and as I wrote, I appreciate the desire to think on your own and I don't think the article mocks anyone.
    I *do* think there are many practical problems with how your research works, and that it is impossible to get to the truth with your method.
    Fix the method, you will get better results.
    Successfully.

  68. It is difficult to take seriously all the waiting gurudishes of all kinds. But here's one that did.
    The great Doron Fischler in an unforgettable episode about the shape of the world (it's important to mention that the episode came out in 2019, before the corona appeared): https://www.osimhistoria.com/theanswer/hatshuva_ep23
    Matan, leave me out of debate. I don't have time for you. But listen to the episode. You'll even get a compliment or two there.

  69. Hi Matan.
    If it's a scientific debate, I suggest doing it on the beach while ships move away and disappear beyond the curvature of the earth (the body disappears before the mast). The matter will be over very quickly and we can go have a beer.
    If you just want to argue, sorry - I've exhausted it and it's useless (this whole article is to explain why it's useless).

  70. There is a reason why you can find a lot of evidence supporting ideas like corona denial or the flatness of the land, and it is countries like Russia that finance the massive distribution of disinformation in the West, with the aim of weakening the West as much as possible.
    This in itself sounds like a conspiracy, but it really isn't 🙂

    And it is not ironic that the innocent sheep who fall into the disinformation trap are taught to call those who did not fall into the trap "sheep". It's simply clever and well-constructed demagoguery, mind engineering by experts.


  71. Currently, I don't think that people who believe in a flat earth, could cause any harm or damage.
    Forgive me for making a generalization and departing a bit from the debate on which the article focuses.
    I recognize a second thread woven between several issues that do affect our lives in the State of Israel.
    The corona virus - is it the invention of an international conspiracy?
    The denial, the belief in the conspiracy, the fanatical reliance on unreliable sources, lead to outbreaks, the spread, the strengthening of the virus.
    Let's try to bring facts and established scientific materials, to those who refuse to be vaccinated.
    From my personal experience, this is impossible.
    Complete disregard for medical information, ignoring and denying the facts.
    And of course I had to face the question:
    Why do you believe everything they push you on the internet?
    The answer I asked the same question.
    I broke down and he got corona.
    Narrative versus reality -
    A dark right-winger, gets angry when lies are presented to him as the truth.
    An enlightened leftist, gets angry when he is shown the facts and reality as truth.
    Narrative means a story that is not necessarily based on facts, but imagined fantasies.
    There is no Zionist narrative!
    There is the Palestinian narrative.
    Who will win, in practice, solid facts against a made-up story without relying on facts?
    Who do you think should win?

    And there are other conspiracies such as: Holocaust denial, Kennedy's murder, Rabin's murder, the moon landing, the twin disaster and much more...

    Unfortunately, there will always be those who ignored reality.
    At best it doesn't bother anyone else.

  72. I suggest that the believers in the flat earth should simply go photograph the end of the world, build a raft and go look for the end of the nation and leave us to our own devices

  73. Gravitation is a radial force and this was proved by Cavendish in the 18th century. They are invited to refute the experiment.
    In my opinion it has nothing to do with science, it is about control, power and money. They take believers, brainwash them with lies and then enslave them for a long time.
    That's how they make a lot of money from the unfortunate. Scientology also uses similar methods (although it is a much more institutionalized sect).

  74. Not everyone who writes paradigm 100 times in his article is really intelligent and a scientist. Be real and face Matan Gorodish's proposal here in the responses to the confrontation. It's easy to lecture against a flat earth to people who have been spoon-feeding them on a bullet since they were in kindergarten. and make them feel like the "real" sages. They believe in the religion of science. It's easiest to believe in order to know the truth you have to investigate and don't ask that from any of the sheep responding here. It's already too much. It is easiest to mock those who think. This is the place of comfort for the absolute moron..

  75. I'm waiting for the price of space tourism to drop to something more reasonable to tell people - go see for yourself. Beyond that - there is nothing to say to people who don't want to listen. I was convinced by the explanation regarding the flight times of commercial airplanes - since no airline would want to lose money, the flight times for equal distances should be equal - the fact that they actually correspond only to a spherical shape is the unequivocal proof - the Earth is indeed a sphere.

  76. I'm interested in what map they are based on, and how they explain that the plane flew over a part that is supposed to be after the end of the world

  77. Matan Gorodish, I watched (a little, because my patience ran out) the debate you had with Dr. Yigal Fat-El. It is impossible to have a discussion with you. You don't have the ability to listen. You don't have the ability to be silent for a moment and let someone else speak. All of you are focused on spewing out your mantras (mainly nonsense that doesn't bend) without any intention of letting the other party complete an idea and certainly not listening to him/her. As an attempt is made to present you with scientific facts, you enter things aggressively by loudly repeating the same mantras. you spent Just as described in a wonderful (and spherical) land.

  78. In the Holy Zohar even in my time it is written about the sphere and the humans living in it on one side the sun and on the other side the moon and they stand in it and do not fall from the force of gravity. ignorant

  79. Just like you said, people of one conspiracy theory believe in many,
    You see that the world is round in flight, in the sea, during the stars and the sun, with telescopes you see how other planets orbit.
    Today the flights into the atmosphere are already starting, so that a high percentage of people will see the earth with their own eyes and not through the mediation of cameras.
    I'm sure it won't stop stochists from believing in their theory even if they themselves fly a shuttle to the moon and land there. They will say that the road is some effect of light distortion and the moon is an island on the earth and that they see it from the earth, because there is a mirror that moves in the sky.

  80. The author of the article ignores simple facts and countless holes in the spherical theory. The earth is flat, there is no observation of curvature, or of gravity. An attempt at giggling and nothing else.

  81. There is no sense in looking for sense in an argument with senseless people. Arguing with such fools is in advance without basic logical tools and therefore there is no possibility of winning or losing. Just wasting time or having fun

  82. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that one of the reasons for identifying with a conspiracy is the misery of human existence experienced by the stochist. The "stochist" becomes in the eyes of himself and others a "knower of hidden things", wise and special. Therefore, there is no value in arguing with him - because the problem is not in his lack of understanding of the rules of physics.

  83. Hello Dotan. My name is Matan Gorodish and I have published 52 episodes of lectures on the flat world. I invite you to a live debate in front of a live audience wherever you choose. You can bring with you any scientist or scientists you want. are you ready am waiting

  84. Unfortunately, this is not really a topic for scientific discussion, but a topic for psychiatry. The human mind, in certain people, does not work according to the study of reality - building an understanding (model of reality in perception) of reality - conclusions. For these people, understanding is based on random concepts or on stories they heard from others. Probably two different states of mental illness, close to schizophrenia.

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