Prof. Dan Ben-David, director of the Taub Center: "The increase in funding over the years allows a growing part of the population to choose not working as a way of life, while the long-term neglect of the human infrastructure (mainly in education) and the physical infrastructure (mainly in transportation) prevents many people from The tools and conditions for successful competition in a modern and competitive economy."
Below is a Taub Center press release. A comment column by the writers of the science website will also be published soon
The Taub Center's annual report, published today, presents a problematic picture ahead of the country's 62nd Independence Day, with consequences for an unsustainable future. Among the main findings
- In 30 years, 78% of the students in elementary education will be ultra-orthodox or Arab and only 14% in the state stream - if the trends of the last decade continue.
- Transfer payments per capita increased by 400% in the last 40 years.
- Since the XNUMXs, the standard of living in Israel has been declining, in relative terms compared to leading Western countries.
Prof. Dan Ben-David: "It is possible - still - to change direction. The government must understand the meaning of the trends and immediately adopt a systemic plan to change them.
In preparation for Israel's 62nd Independence Day, the Taub Center's annual report, "State of the State Report - Society, Economy and Policy 2009" is published. The purpose of the report is to provide a wide-ranging and unbiased professional factual database that will be used by the public and its leaders. The uniqueness of the report lies in the comprehensive picture it presents: where the country is, where it is heading, what the consequences are and what can be done.
The Taub Center for Social Policy Research in Israel, headed by Professor Dan Ben-David, is an independent, non-partisan institution for socio-economic research based in Jerusalem. The center provides the leading decision makers in Israel and the general public with an overview of the economy and society. The interdisciplinary teams - which include prominent researchers from academia and leading experts from the policy fields - and the center's professional staff conduct research and offer policy recommendations on the main socio-economic issues facing the country.
1. In the last 30 years there has been a deterioration in male employment - especially among ultra-Orthodox and Arabs
Three decades ago, the unemployment rate among non-Orthodox Jewish men in Israel in the prime working ages, 35-54, was almost the same as the average rate in the Organization of Industrialized Countries, the OECD. Since then, the unemployment rate in OECD countries has increased by 50% and it has doubled for non-Orthodox Jews.
The similarity between Israel and the OECD 3 decades ago has disappeared and in 2008 the unemployment rate among non-Orthodox Jews (15%) is a quarter higher than the OECD (12%).
The unemployment rate among Arab men rose from 15% in 1979 to 27% in 2008. Among ultra-Orthodox men, the unemployment rate in 2008 (65%) was more than three times higher compared to the rate about three decades ago (21%).
In 1960, 15% of all students in elementary schools belonged to the orthodox or Arab education stream while 61% studied in the state stream. Two decades later, in 1980, the proportion of ultra-orthodox and Arab students increased to 26%. The children of the XNUMXs are of prime working age today and their unemployment rates appear above.
According to Nahum Bells from the Taub Center, during the first decade of the 3s alone there was a 8% decrease in the number of students in elementary schools in the state stream, an 33% increase in the state-religious stream, a 51% increase in the Arab stream and a 48% increase in the ultra-orthodox stream. As a result of these changes during the last decades, nearly half (2008%) of the students in elementary schools in XNUMX were ultra-Orthodox or Arab.
If the changes that have taken place during the past decade alone continue, then in thirty years, in 2040, the ultra-orthodox and the Arabs will make up 78% of all children in the elementary education system in Israel, while the share of the state stream will drop to only 14%. It is assumed that this situation will not exist, for the following two reasons. If these children have work patterns like their parents' today, the State of Israel will have a hard time surviving. On the other hand, if the children's parents in the future have employment rates similar to what is common in the West, then it is likely that the birth rates will also be different from today.
Prof. Dan Ben-David: "In order for those future graduates to be employed in 30 years, they must receive an education today that matches the needs of a modern economy. This is not the case today in Israel. The level of education in Israel in the basic fields is the lowest in the West in general, and among these two population groups, it is even much lower."
3. Transfer payments per capita increased by 400% - in the last 40 years
As a result of the constant increase - since the 1970s - in the dimensions of poverty and income inequality, a parallel increase in transfer payments per capita was needed to curb the actual increase from being reflected in net incomes as well. But even after the sharp cut in these payments at the beginning of the XNUMXs, the average payment per capita is five times greater in real terms (that is, after deducting inflation) than it was in XNUMX. This is at a time when the standard of living in Israel - reflected in GDP per capita - has only doubled.
Prof. Dan Ben-David: "It is difficult to see how it will be possible to maintain such disparities in the rate of growth of the two trends - in transfer payments and in the general standard of living in the country - for four more decades. Either the State of Israel will resort to root treatment (significant improvement in the educational and physical infrastructure) in order to provide larger sections of the population with the tools and conditions required to cope with a modern economy - and thereby reduce poverty and inequality at the source - or that budget limitations will require curbing the increase in transfer payments per capita, with all This implies the containment of the increase in poverty rates and inequality in net incomes."
Summary
Prof. Dan Ben-David, director of the Taub Center for Social Policy Research in Israel: "The demographic changes in Israel's population have enormous potential - unlike the industrializing Western countries, this is a country with a very young population - but there is also a very great danger in them if the trends of the last decades continue. On the one hand, the level of education received by Israeli children places them below any of the 25 OECD countries. in every international test given in the last decade. An increasing number of Israeli children are in the ultra-orthodox or Arab stream where the education in the basic areas is particularly low - although, for different reasons in each of the streams."
"On the other hand, the state's higher education institutions are in the envelope of human knowledge. That is, we have the knowledge required to raise Israel to the highest standards of living in the West. If we manage today to give the children of Israel the best primary and secondary education in the West, the ability of these future graduates to upgrade their personal standard of living will improve immeasurably, and it will improve the overall ability of the State of Israel to absorb, apply and develop additional knowledge, which will contribute to raising the general standard of living of The country to the peaks of the West."
"The findings of the Taub Center's State of the State Report "Society, Economy and Policy 2009" indicate that a systemic policy is required, in the areas of education, employment and welfare together. Along with replacing incentives for non-work with incentives for work, there is an urgent need to provide the tools and conditions to successfully deal with a modern economy characterized by growing demands for an educated and skilled workforce. Upgrading the level of education will increase the chances of finding employment and increasing income."
261 תגובות
Taub Center provides data but gets the interpretation wrong.
Quote: "As a result of the constant increase - since the XNUMXs - in the dimensions of poverty and income inequality, a parallel increase in transfer payments per capita was necessary to curb the actual increase from being reflected in net incomes as well."
The opposite is true because they increased the transfer payments, people could choose the path of idleness and contentment with little (voluntary poverty), and therefore the dimensions of poverty increased. To solve the problem the transfer payments need to be reduced and then people will have no choice and they will look for work. When they look for a job, they will find that core studies are more economical than sacred studies. The demand for institutions that combine Torah and Liba will increase!!
Regarding demographics, after the child allowances were cut in 2003, the growth trend of the poor sectors was halted. Details can be seen in my response on another page on the science website:
https://www.hayadan.org.il/israel-to-become-third-world-281112/
Father, I hope I convinced you after you wrote in your comment "this imaginary downward trend?"
For those who have not yet understood the term "Messiah's donkey"
http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=855935
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/174/863.html
http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=754783
Fischer to foreign reporters:
"Israel will not be able to tolerate an increase in an ultra-Orthodox population that does not work; It won't last."
http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000576224&nl=2
http://www.hofesh.org.il/articles/humor/religion-is-bullshit.html
http://cafe.themarker.com/post/1656649/
http://lnk.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleId=719331&sid=182
Moti:
Tell me - what's wrong with you?
The reformers define themselves as religious but you authorize yourself to define them differently.
I know a lot of other sane religious people (what exactly do you want? A Semitic list?) but I guess if you saw them you would (because of your madness) define them as irreligious or insane.
I don't know what will happen in the elections.
Although Tzipi Livni already understood the matter and so did Ron Huldai (and in fact - every intelligent person in the country), but there is no chance that Tzipi Livni will switch parties.
What is quite likely is that the issue will be dealt with in any governmental framework that will be established and thus I will be satisfied.
If this is not dealt with with due speed - the country will be destroyed and you and your friends will be able to attribute this destruction to your credit as well.
Avi Blizovsky
Look, I don't know you personally and you treat me with personal hostility.
I am not ultra-orthodox, but I am an observant religious Jew. You convey personal enmity towards me, even though you do not know me.
This kind of hostility without prior acquaintances and without any real reason does not flatter you at all.
If you were interested in going in a positive direction, you would be interested and read and know that central rabbis and central Halachic judges oppose the extremists and those wild fringes who oppose the relocation of the graves.
But you prefer to wallow in your enmity.
Anyone who wears a kippah is an enemy to you, unless he is probably a reformer.
Machel
I don't know which sane religious you mean if the reformers are not religious and not even traditionalists.
The reformers all their intention is anti-observants are their enemy.
However, I tried to see if your hostility is objective or if it stems from undiagnosed and senseless enmity.
You have the right to continue to advocate in this way.
We can meet at the polling station in the next election and see what happens then.
I appreciate that you will continue to rant and complain about the parasitic ultra-Orthodox and will continue to try to gather votes for your Kikion party. I also appreciate that you will not exceed the blocking percentage.
In the meantime you can continue with your hostile primitive attitude.
Moti:
You don't stop talking.
There is cooperation between secularists and sane religious people.
I didn't just bring the text of Hadosh.
You make up a scarecrow and attack him because you are a crow that steals from our fields.
If one day you decide to be sane (and not just religious) you will be able to justify this cooperation more easily.
It is always your answer that it is a minority, but lately you have to give it so many times that it seems like an excuse. As long as they set the tone, there is no one to talk to and you have to force. After all, the moderate rabbis are afraid of them and therefore submit to them on all fronts, from core studies to the starving mother, Elior Chen and Intel.
Maybe your rabbis said other things in hints and rooms. I have not heard any important rabbi (apart from Yehuda Meshi Zahav, who I am not sure is a rabbi), who goes against these thugs (whom he knows very well because he used to be one of them) and hence agree with them or align with them because of giving in to bullying. It doesn't really matter to me.
Avi Blizovsky
If I was right, you come with a hostile attitude. And as before you will lose.
You want to go to the polls with this hostile attitude, and you know that your attitude will only cause Likud ranks
of all the religious from all streams together. So in terms of the number of mandates you will lose.
Your insistence on choosing hostility will do you no good.
So what will you choose to do, start another anti-religious party and you think it will succeed.
I argue that only a positive approach of creating cooperation through common interests will bring results.
By the way, the transfer of the graves to your knowledge is once again a generalization by the media and the passing of guilt on the entire observant public as if they oppose the transfer of the graves. This is really nonsense.
Know that the majority of this public as a whole, including the important rabbis, ruled that the graves should be moved even if they were Jewish graves. Because of public need.
But the mediation does not bring this side but only the side of the extreme quarrel makers.
Those who burn trash cans are nothing more than flashy and meaningless fringe groups that no one really cares about among the sane religious public.
Moti,
Israeli governments have been trying your method of waiting maybe things will work out for 62 years. These studies show that the state's time is running out, and if you haven't solved the problems so far, you won't solve them yourself from now on. The solution must be forced just like with the moving of the graves, because your leaders are betraying you and exaggerating their positions day by day. This cannot continue, because otherwise the whole country will be Beit Shemesh (and it's also a shame for such a beautiful city that was lost to the sane people).
No approach other than an uncompromising approach will not solve the problem, which you even begin to partially admit at the end of your response.
Avi Blizovsky, from Cal
Sorry again, please accept my apology. And I also agree that it is inappropriate to compare Jews with Israel haters.
But I regret the resentment and hostility that hides under your and Michal's messages.
Unwillingness at all to accept and communicate with observant Jews.
The feeling of those who read your words that all you want is for them to evaporate from your eyes just because they are observant.
As a non-Orthodox religious Jew, it is hard for me to hear the same messages of anti and hostility over and over again.
If your approach is indeed a fortified approach that does not want the other party to be heard or to express an opinion or communicate in any way. I can say that the long and short history shows that all those groups and parties advocating the disappearance of the ultra-Orthodox, such as Lapid's party, have disappeared and will disappear. The ultra-orthodox will remain here even after the atomic bomb, yes, along with the cockroaches.
But if you think about a little more utilitarian and positive options, maybe there is a way of cooperation between sane secularists and sane observants.
The goal of cooperation should be to find a way to control extremism.
The tone setters today on each side are the extremists.
If you ask the normative Mitzvah observant, he also strongly opposes extremism.
And there are various kinds of extremism. The excessive amount of yeshiva students for example. After all, everyone knows that a considerable number of them are just warming the throne or even that is not. Not everyone is suitable to study Torah all day. But this insistence is due to the fact that their families fear that they will not have a suitable match. Of course, the economic issue is also how to train many of the kollel scholars who have been studying for several years and have already had five or six children, to work in fields suitable for them.
There is a lot to be done, but it will not be done with poison arrows sent by one another.
And anyone who was affected by Muti's obfuscation attempts is welcome to return anywayתגובה 242 and read it.
Moti:
No one ever included everyone under the fringe groups.
It's just another lie of yours.
There are things that are allowed to be warned about even if the haters of Israel warned about them.
In general - not everything that the haters of Israel have done is wrong.
If you think that everything they did is wrong - you are asked to stop breathing because they did it too.
If the majority of Mitzvot observant people are normative people, why don't they rebel against those who try to make their children backward and degenerate them further into the cycle of poverty (because a family with 20 children, even if social security gives them 50 thousand shekels a month, will still be poor)
Apart from that, conversion (to any religion or sect) is a crime against humanity. Nothing good comes out of these people and nothing good comes out of them either. Most of them are unhappy people.
And besides, what is this sentence of yours: "If in what way are you different from all the anti-Semites who have existed so far and who have repeatedly repeated generations upon generations on this pattern?" And besides that, the phrase "Israel hater" is a phrase synonymous with anti-Semitism and you wrote it at least 7-8 times in your response.
Avi Blizovsky
Throughout the comments I tried to make sure not to use this word.
And I'm really sorry I didn't notice and accidentally used that word in the last sentence.
I used the word hate and the word grudge which I think is more suitable for the matter here.
I don't think that using this nickname is appropriate for a Jew towards other Jews at all.
My argument is yours, my father, like Michael, has no desire at all to hear or understand how the other side thinks and behaves.
That is, the religious Jew who observes the Mitzvot.
All the writing and all the articles on the site are tainted with bias because of a structured and unequivocal and uncompromising grudge.
This is the kind of relationship that exists between enemies and against this I express my opinion.
For you there is no thinking at all about some kind of real connection, what you would like is for the observant religious Jew to simply disappear from your eyes in all respects.
Do you deny it?
I argued from the knowledge that most Mitzvot observants are normative people in all respects.
They don't live on your account, they work, pay taxes and definitely take care of their children's English and math education. Today there is a movement of converts and among them there is a lot of extremism and imbalance.
And in addition, there are extreme groups of naturalists and some other fringe groups.
But all these are not the majority of those who observe the mitzvot.
I suggest you consider maybe not including everyone under the fringe groups.
Just because they are observant and behave differently than you.
From Hadosh publications under the leadership The rabbi Uri Regev:
New in the Friday studio. Amnon Abramovich reports: The Hadosh association reveals that the number of yeshiva students broke a new record this year. Yair Lapid: The ultra-orthodox are taking advantage of their position in the government (Sixhi Studio, Channel 2 News, 30.4.10/40/25, minute XNUMX:XNUMX). To view the diary »
60 thousand evaders. Ben Caspit reports on Hadosh data: a record of 60 dodgers whose Torah is their art, a record of 100 yeshiva students. Hadosh: "Danger to the country's economy". (Mosafasht, Maariv 23.4.10). To read the article »
The public is against religious legislation. Hadosh's religion and state index for the winter of 2010 outlines the mood of the Israeli public: 70% are against religious legislation, 85% oppose exemption from military service for the ultra-Orthodox, 68% are in favor of reducing funding for yeshiva. (Walla, 25.4.10). ToRead the article »
Jessica doesn't live here anymore. Jessica Fishman, a Zionist Jew immigrated to Israel, served in the army, fell in love with an Israeli. Then she reached the rabbinate (Mossef for Shabbat, Yedioth Ahronoth, 30.4.10/XNUMX/XNUMX). To read the article: part 1 " | part 2 "
Independence Day? Not at our school. 45 thousand ultra-Orthodox students studied on Independence Day in violation of the law. CEO of Hadosh Rabbi Adv. Uri Regev: "We must stop the funding." (Channel 2 news, the main edition, 21.4.10/XNUMX/XNUMX). To view the article »
Gafni's stinking deal. The chairman of the finance committee demands to increase the budget base for meetings by a quarter of a billion shekels without negotiation. CEO of Hadosh: "Stop the extortion" (headline of Globes, 27.4.10/XNUMX/XNUMX) To read the article »
"A hundred gates of fear". Mea Shearim is becoming a dangerous place for any representative of the government: attacking soldiers and policemen, blocking buses and violent demonstrations. (Additional Shishab, Israel Today 30.4.10/XNUMX/XNUMX) To read the article »
Tal law - a decade of failure. The Tal Law was defeated and the number of ultra-Orthodox evading the IDF increased without stopping. VP Hadosh: "This is no longer just discrimination. This is a problem of national security" (Mospasfat, Ma'ariv 30.4.10/XNUMX/XNUMX). To read the article: part 1 " | part 2 "
The dire consequences of education for ignorance. Hadosh publishes: only five supervisors of ultra-orthodox education, 40% of the ultra-orthodox do not know English at all, ultra-Orthodox who work earn much less than secular ones (Walla, 3.5.10). To read the article »
Freedom of religion first. The Kadima Council held a discussion on religion and state issues. A document delivered by Hadosh to the council members explains why it is essential for the state and appropriate for the political system to place the issues of religious freedom at the center of the agenda. ("Let's Go" website) For the full document »
Not the violence, not the extortion - the ultra-orthodox: Hadosh is guilty of criticizing us
Who is to blame for the wave of criticism of the ultra-Orthodox in the last two weeks? The ultra-orthodox press had a clear answer: Hadosh is to blame.
Former Interior Minister Aryeh Deri led the wave of accusers in an interview with the ultra-Orthodox newspaper "Seha Tova". Deri on Hadosh: This is an organization that manages to sell its reports well to the media. To report the article »
The ultra-Orthodox political commentator Yaakov Rivlin asks in the "BaKhilah" newspaper: "Is the Hadosh association behind the endless wave of publications about the ultra-Orthodox growth and against ultra-Orthodox education that has recently flooded the Israeli media?" And he answers: "Every piece of news that is published on these issues in the media is always accompanied by a response from the Rabbi Regev." To read the article »
A. The word anti-Semitic appeared in your quote, this is also a crooked way of saying that because I quote you, you say anti-Semitic, so I also said anti-Semitic.
If you have a problem with articles and comments on the site, you are welcome to contact the International Court of Justice in The Hague or the International Court of Justice.
Moti:
You are simply a phenomenon of nature - a person who is unable to move his lips or type on the keyboard without lying.
Regarding the last book (so far, since it is clear that you will tell more lies), let me quote: "How are you different from all the anti-Semites"
And something fresh from today:
http://bhol-forums.co.il/topic.asp?cat_id=4&topic_id=2788217&forum_id=771
Avi Blizovsky
The word "anti-Semitic" does not appear anywhere in the entire text you wrote to me!!!
You cannot block the facts.
But you can twist what I wrote.
You cannot ignore that the above seven criteria are identified in the use of all those who have a built-in inner grudge for no reason against the Torah religious and cultural nucleus that the people of Israel represent.
You are not "only" criticizing laziness, this is far from the truth.
There are enough articles and comments on the site that fit the above criteria, which demonstrates the true intention hidden behind them.
One more time you call someone, certainly someone who only criticizes you for laziness and not for a criminal offense, anti-Semitic and we block you forever, I try not to do that, but there is a limit.
Machel
Let's check if you fit part of the 7 criteria - claims used by Israel haters for generations.
1. Do you generalize all religious observants and treat them as one group that are all primitive?
From looking at your writings and the articles on the answer site - yes!!!
2. Do you claim that their behavior is anti-democratic and stems from blind obedience to the rabbis?
From looking at your writings and the articles on the answer site - yes!!!
3. Aren't you claiming that they intend to create a Halacha state here and push the feet of all the seculars in the end?
From looking at your writings and the articles on the answer site - yes!!!
4. Aren't you claiming that they are a parasitic group and unproductive and idle idiots who live at your expense?
From looking at your writings and the articles on the answer site - yes!!!
5. Do you use scientific evidence to support your claims: see-evolution see-statistical analyses?
From looking at your writings and the articles on the answer site - yes!!!
6. Aren't you using apparent proofs from the Torah to prove that this is nonsense: see-Moveot Da'at Emet?
From looking at your writings and the articles on the answer site - yes!!!
7. Don't you claim that this is a rotten and corrupt criminal group. A criminal group against society on a regular basis?
From looking at your writings and the articles on the answer site - yes!!!
—–
If in what way are you different from all the anti-Semites who have existed up to now and have repeatedly repeated generations upon generations on this pattern.
The nation of Israel still exists and still observes mitzvot and studies Torah and they are no more.
Michael,
With your permission, I will respond on behalf of the thousands of commenters who surely did not pay attention to what you wrote but were interested in responding to it:
Well done Michael
Tzatat from YNET and NRG and Haaretz and Moula and Mako and Globus and from many, many places that those who know and understand a little, know that they are evil and Israel haters and are constantly accusing righteous Jews of unfounded falsehoods that only the secular can read. For you it's all drugs and sex and adultery and all kinds of things that the ultra-Orthodox cannot read because they study Torah all day and don't think about such things at all
Moti,
You do the job for Michael and my father by choosing to ignore the facts and only accuse everyone who attacks you of hating Israel. In this way, you make every sane reader see that you actually have no real argument to justify the non-integration of the ultra-Orthodox in the labor market - and remind you, that's what the discussion is about.
Furthermore, my grandparents grew up in religious Jewish homes and if you bother to read a few comments back you will see that Michael himself did too. Despite being secular, I don't think it would have occurred to us to say that all those acts that are published in the media are an integral and acceptable part of ultra-Orthodox culture as a whole and we understand that they are assigned to it as in any human society. The reason why I am able to believe that these phenomena are perhaps more prevalent in the ultra-Orthodox public than in other publics, is precisely due to the fact that when it is known about a crazy secular mother who abused her son, the issue is dealt with, while when the same phenomenon occurs in an ultra-orthodox society, many demonstrations take place in her defense and the parties who report and deal with it are accused of hatred Israel.
We are all human and in any group of people there will be problems, even if they study Torah, the denial and defensiveness you employ prevent a real solution to problems.
Hear Mackal, regarding your third link, I'm not sure I understand what claim he came to prove 🙂
The delusional story.
Moti:
Here is the next dish.
If you want more - all you need to do is keep asking for it as you have done so far.
http://www.mynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3743550,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3744163,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3743686,00.html
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/22/1514662
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/912/007.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/1,7340,L-98368,00.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1097050.html
Shortening a long link
http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=646627&sid=126
http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000474535&fid=2&nl=2
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/907/770.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3735958,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3735758,00.html
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/54/ART1/890/241.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3733407,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3732621,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3732197,00.html
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/895/077.html
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/3/1492238
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3718156,00.html
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/892/782.html
http://www.mako.co.il/news-law/legal/Article-be48c1e22e45121004.htm&sCh=3d385dd2dd5d4110&pId=978777604
http://www.mynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3711940,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3713096,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3710509,00.html
http://www.mynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3707925,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3705849,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3704416,00.html
Moti:
There is no point in talking to you.
All your comments are lies, lies, and more lies.
Avi Blizovsky, from Cal
What Israel haters have in common throughout history is that they always always always repeat the same worn-out pattern and are therefore easy to recognize. All the principles below appear and repeat and appear in the books of history and you prove it
Don't miss any of those below.
1. The perception of all observant Jews in a one-dimensional generalization
2. The claim that they are anti-democrats who obey the rabbis as one mindless bloc
3. The conspiracy to take over everyone else's life
4. The claim that they are the unproductive parasitic parasites of society
5. Covering it with scientific evidence to strengthen their claim
6. Proofs from the scriptures and the Talmud to establish demons and their lack of logic
7. Accusing them of crimes by stories coming out of their fingers
Moti:
What you call plots and lies is truth to truth.
These are cases that the police investigated and the court convicted.
If you think everyone is anti-Semitic then you better leave - not only the site but the earth.
And as for your personal honesty - I will ask you - do you know all these criminals and do you know that they were just framed?
I can rely on the Israeli legal system when determining my position - but what do you rely on?
We all know that you don't rely on anything - you just decided to say that these are conspiracies and lies and that's what you did.
It gets you in personally Exactly in the category of slanderer and liar.
Moti,
It's just unrelated
The secular public is not without its problems and neither is the ultra-orthodox public (and neither is the Eskimo public, but we are not discussing it). The examples you give are extreme and do not reflect the majority of the secular public just as the examples Michael presents do not reflect the majority of the ultra-orthodox public.
The difference (and therefore also the anger at you) is that when you are presented with problems in your public you claim that it is anti-Semitism, while when Michael is presented with the problems of his public he understands that this is a flaw.
Let's agree that we don't now blame any public in general for the horrible acts you presented - there are crazy secularists and there are crazy ultra-Orthodox - that's how it is.
The point worthy of discussion is the attitude of the ultra-orthodox public as a public to the rest of society and thus I will direct you to my response (193).
If all you want is to accuse Michael and Abi of antisemitism, then there is no need for that, you can simply leave this site and go to another site where you will receive less opposition.
Moti - anyone who criticizes your idleness is an Israel hater. As if in the ten commandments there is a word "thou shalt not work"
Machel
Most of these things are plots and lies and generalizations exactly in the style used by all haters of Israel.
You can also find lies of the same type on Hamas websites that describe the Israeli Jew as a criminal.
But the statistics and chronicle of crime in the secular schools that teach citizenship is a daily fact.
When you generalize and write that there are thousands of examples and slander the entire observant religious community as if they were a bunch of criminals, it shows how much your hatred drives you crazy.
You have never even bothered to hear how the average observant religious Jew really thinks.
You just hate him as an individual and as a group.
Moti:
You don't stop talking and lying and you talk about honoring others?!
Abnormal adults?!
Is it out of respect for others that you send others to die for you on the battlefield?
Is it out of respect for others that you force him to work for your livelihood?
The police are busy with you non-stop (even tonight) and every terrible crime by an "abnormal adult" is followed by demonstrations of support for the criminal and throwing stones at the police.
And what you call "abnormal adults" - beyond the fact that they are less abnormal than in secular society - are graduates of your training system.
The starving mother, the Taliban mother, the shaking father... there is no end!!!
This man went to the synagogue every morning:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3757590,00.html
This man committed the acts of Sodom and said - "holy commandments":
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3750221,00.html
Here is another thoughtful and nice act - the sidewalks in Mea Shearim are forbidden to women:
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/1/1529900
Haredi neighborhoods that have become a hiding place for kidnapped children, abuse under the auspices of the Israeli bureaucracy:
http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=654072&sid=126
How does it happen that the name of rabbis is associated with money laundering in the amount of millions and managing a mafia network that rolls black money free of tax? How is it possible that Gezel gets kosher since he was made 'for heaven's sake'"? Israel Wellman with the historical roots of the blasphemy of the Great God:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3752986,00.html
The mother who had sex with her children aged 7 and 11, while her husband was in the synagogue:
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/54/ART1/918/806.html
The boy continued to rape children when he was under house arrest:
http://news.walla.co.il/ts.cgi?w=/1/1522572
snake bite snake:
http://www.haredim.co.il/ViewArticleVideos.aspx?itmID=898
Rabbis traded organs from Israel
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//1525303&m=1&mid=71169
The predatory driver is helped by the predatory judge:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/1,7340,L-3750988,00.html
44 people were arrested, including a number of rabbis. According to the suspicion, money was received from organ trading and also from the sale of fake "Gucci" and "Prada" bags
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3751533,00.html
Dozens of serious complaints about beatings and sexual exploitation of children for repentant families have been filed against Torah Talmud people:
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/920/820.html
You will probably lie again in your response but it won't change anything.
There are hundreds and thousands more examples and if you keep asking for it I will keep exposing your nakedness.
Avi Blizovsky
How is it that in the schools that teach citizenship there are serious criminal offenses almost every week.
Math and English citizenship are studied and the crime is only increasing.
Crime and delinquency is the first factor that strives for democracy and lives at the expense of the citizens.
And these are learned in the secular schools and in the secular media culture.
You demonstrate your vapid hatred by generalizing that a million people are idlers which is a complete lie.
This hatred makes you perceive the observant Jew in a one-dimensional way.
You are not ready to know at all what and who is what they really teach and what they think and not the extremists but the normal religious majority. You are not ready to understand their way of thinking at all.
It seems to you that everyone there is stupid and idle because of your loathing.
Moti. Mathematics and English are not only beautiful but a must to get along in a modern world, and yes - there is also a core subject called citizenship that educates for exactly that - human moral values, consideration and respect for others in a democratic way not by coercion.
The seculars don't need alms, they just need to go out to work and yes - in cases of transplants, etc., the members from the army and the studies are mobilized to help and so is the general public. Someone like Rabbi Pirer does not justify having a million people voluntarily idle and living at the expense of the tax payer.
As for the degree of extremism - the lawyers also claim that the 90% who discredit their names are fraudsters and liars...
Avi Blizovsky
Mathematics and English are beautiful. Where at its core is the study of human values and morals. Consideration and respect for others.
In which school do you study charity. Do you know by any chance how many organizations there are for the Jewish community in ultra-Orthodox society?
And how many are secular. There are special medical centers from which anyone in need, regardless of whether they are ultra-Orthodox or secular, receives help and links to doctors and medicines. How many of these are there for secular people who learned from core professions.
You have heard of Rabbi Pirer. And he is not the only one in his field as you know.
You tend to generalize all the ultra-orthodox with a few extremists while most of them are certainly not like that.
Besides, in most ultra-Orthodox schools, math and English are taught.
For some reason you prefer to despise them.
Someone here is confused - the ultra-orthodox education despises the secular education, deliberately makes sure that the children come out ignorant and do not know math and English so that they cannot integrate into the slave market and for generations will depend on the blackmailing power of their rabbis.
I am heartless and immoral. Thanks for the info, I thought I was pretty good all these years.
So some kids smoked some marijuana.. end of the world.
Avi Blizovsky, from Cal
Sorry, but these are students who study the core professions in the secular schools.
Not a week goes by without criminal offenses in those schools you are proud of.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. The examples you gave are adults and exceptions.
Go check the prisons, what percentage of scholars from the core professions are sitting there.
And what percentage of yeshiva students. Although it is true today that every criminal who enters the prison immediately puts on a big kippa and pretends to be an ultra-Orthodox rabbi for some reason. After all, the media makes a big deal of publicity when an ultra-Orthodox commits a criminal act.
But the reality is that secular culture corrupts and rots society.
After all, your hatred for the ultra-Orthodox stems from that secular education that drips to hate the ultra-Orthodox.
The secular schools teach to be heartless and immoral.
Lemuti, and what about the starving mother, and Lior Chen and the shevniks who can't find employment and cause damage to their neighbors, bully girls and there are also cases of rape in which quite a few rabbis were involved. It's just that there are the modesty guards there who will do the deed of the switch to anyone who tries to air the dirty laundry.
Moti:
It was I who said.
You don't understand anything.
But don't get bored here, I'll give you something else:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv8TW2Pts_w&feature=related
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3518281,00.html
But what am I complaining about your ignorance?
You are simply fulfilling your Rabbi's mitzvah"Better to be a cat than learn the truth"
You are delusional. What is all this hate about?
Machel
Sorry, I forgot that they also study gang rape there
and murder - see Anat Fliner's entry
and violence
Moti:
It is obvious that you have not studied anything and certainly not core studies.
By the way: what do you think about This link As a measure for Torah studies?
To Avi Blizovsky:
Here is what you learn in core studies.
Dozens of students are involved in a drug scandal in high schools in Ramat Hasharon.
deer:
Regarding my definition as a Jew - I repeat and emphasize - if I feel that the threat to the Jewish people in Israel is greater than the threat abroad - I have no doubt that I will move abroad and try to convince others to do so as well.
Of course, for me to feel that way there must be a real danger like the one you described.
I don't think I would further a single human cause by trying to become a victim of an atomic bomb.
Regarding the video - in my opinion, it illustrates a very important point about the characteristics of the various animals and the human within them.
This point is what I call "side effects".
Evolution develops traits in us that normally promote the genes.
Usually - but not always - and this is because there is no significant evolutionary pressure against behaviors that "miss" in unlikely situations.
An extreme example of this is the imprinting phenomenon in ducks. Different types of them recognize their mother in the first animal they meet - and this - regardless of its identity. It can also be a person.
The reason for this is that this strategy usually works and there was no need to perfect it.
Adopting a certain person as a mother is a byproduct of this strategy.
Altruistic behavior towards others is often the result of a strategy that evolution has "developed" to promote genes while basing itself on the fact that most of a person's encounters are encounters with his relatives who share a genetic interest with him.
So is the nature of mercy and motherhood, which is beautifully demonstrated in the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oVhopPjTNg
I suppose that there is something of this in the case of the dog and the elephant, besides the fact that cooperation - with whoever - is probably a good strategy.
It's not just that the dog is man's best friend. It turns out that the elephant's too.
And the orangutan: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/the-orangutan-and-the-hound/1356710375
I assume that in similar contexts you can also enjoy the following videos:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/dogs_can_be_good_without_god.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM
Michael,
In general, I agree with most of your words - a few comments
1. On the topic of religion and morality - in general, the methodology of bringing an extreme example in order to clarify a point, is correct and reasonable in many cases. The problem with this method is that sometimes the extreme example already distorts the argument and becomes nothing more than demagoguery - the argument according to which religion gave us "thou shalt not kill" is an example of the second case.
2. Your understanding of the evolutionary development of morality is more than thought. Note that this also gives to a certain extent a measure of objective morality (rather than the definition of morality as society thinks at the time) - the moral is what promotes existence because in any case morality is simply intended to serve the continuation of existence (obviously it is not a practical tool for understanding the morality of things that are not really trivial ). I liked the understanding you presented regarding the role of logic as an accelerator of morality (allowing us to examine what would be beneficial to existence without the need for a practical experiment) - I feel that I knew this but did not put it into words and for that I thank you.
3. Ideologies are indeed often characterized by a tendency to formulate absolute truths from unclear axioms and this is their main shortcoming (on a philosophical level, on a practical level, gulags and concentration camps can be considerable disadvantages...).
4. As for anthroposophy - it is very possible that Steiner was an idiot and a short reading on Wikipedia gives the impression that he was indeed one. My acquaintance with anthroposophy, as I mentioned, is zero and only comes from the fact that my friend did a year of service at a boarding school, which happens to be in an anthroposophical settlement. In defense of those who believe in this Torah, I will point out that from a therapeutic point of view, she values these people very much, with or without connection to their strange beliefs (she understands nothing and a half about them and has never been interested in it).
5. As for the roots of Nazism - a book I read published by the Broadcasting University called "The Theological Roots of the Third Reich" (the author is Rebecca Schechter) also makes the claim that Kent has a fundamental part in Nazism. The core of the book discusses the Protestant roots of Nazism (something I have seen in other places) as well as the German myth of Faust - at the time, when I read the book I found it very interesting.
6. Regarding association as a people - I agree with you that there is an excessive reference to the value of the people as a group and not just as a sum of individuals and this reference is incorrect (this is true and even more so regarding the concept of the state). However, I think that in fact your identity in your own eyes, precisely by the concept of "Jew" there is some choice that indicates the concept. You solve this by claiming that because of the existence of anti-Semitism, this is your main identity, whether you like it or not (your argument is that we must unite or we will not survive). I'm not sure I agree with you on that, and I think there's more to it than survival, since I don't feel that the threat of anti-Semitism in the sense of physical destruction is that dramatic (if Ahmadinejad gets an atomic bomb, my life will be in danger regardless of my Jewish identity and I'll be safer in the US despite antisemitism).
7. Your arguments regarding the annexation of the territories are serious and require thought.
8. As for the video - I marvel at nature, - it's not natural!!!
Something thanks to the elimination of artificial differences:
It turns out that with enough soul one can also see beyond the natural differences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlJ6MF9MQQU
deer:
Regarding religion, in short, I agree with you.
I have written here on the website more than once that in my view "religion" is a dictated collection of rules of behavior more than a belief.
The word "religion" originates in the Persian language and means "law" (hence the expression "as religion and law") and a religion without laws is not a religion.
What distinguishes the system of laws of religion from the system of laws of democracy is their permanence.
Permanence is achieved by an external source of authority that supposedly is not the person ("supposedly" because in fact it is a person - but a certain person who founded the religious establishment or such a group of people - who, after enacting the laws - fixed them through their link to God or to some indisputable ideology - such as race theory or Marxism).
Regarding the laws we agree on - I don't think they are the result of education.
I think they are the result of evolution and logic.
I am not a murderer - not because I was taught not to murder, but because I know it is bad.
This knowledge developed in us during evolution as the bud of a behavior strategy that was eventually described by Hillel the Elder as the essence of the entire Torah: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your friend."
I call it the "law of symmetry" and it is easy to understand why this law was instilled in us from considerations of game theory.
In fact, everything we call "human behavior" - whether it's morality, whether it's the sense of justice and anger at being hurt, whether it's love, jealousy or insult, or whether it's altruism - developed in us during evolution and you can see the buds of these feelings ( and sometimes also their blooms) also in animals.
So much for the evolutionary origin of humanity and morality, but I also said "logic" so where does it come in?
Logic is what gives our morality "priority" to that of animals because by means of it we can "get ahead of evolution" in discovering beneficial modes of behavior.
Our ability to understand our environment - including the people who work in it - and to anticipate the results of our actions - gives us the possibility to understand that this or that act that our inner feeling tells us nothing about its morality will lead - as things develop - to a situation that we see as "immoral" or infuriating or offensive.
From this we can deduce the degree of morality of actions that nature has not equipped us with an instinctive feeling about.
I used the term "priority" in quotation marks because there is no objective "good" and "bad" in nature and therefore the "priority" is also a result of our judgment.
The absence of objective good and bad seems at first sight to be a scary thing and this is one of the reasons that religions tried to tie these concepts to God's commandments.
The point is that we don't need true objectivity at all and we can be satisfied with a broad agreement among people.
It does exist because we are all products of the same evolutionary process.
Of course there are exceptions who are not endowed with the same feelings, but these are defined by us as mentally ill (like, for example, psychopaths).
Therefore - the only morality that I believe exists is a morality that, although it is relativistic, is also "objective" in the sense that it is shared by most of us.
Note that every time a religious person tries to explain to you that religion gave us morality, he uses the exact example you used.
He says something like: "Here! The law 'thou shalt not kill' was given to us by religion! "
The question arises as to how he knows it should affect me. After all, if I'm not religious, maybe I don't see this boy as such a big glick. But he knows that I do appreciate this law and he knows this because he also understands that it is a "good" law from within himself and not from religion!
It is no coincidence that he will never use a law like "murdering the Shabbat violator" as an example of religious morality because in the secret of his heart he knows that it is really immoral even though the religion commands him to do so.
It is clear to him that by using such an example he will not be able to confuse me. (I answer these examples with a question like "So what? Are you trying to tell me that if it weren't for religion you would have become a rapist and a murderer? Then I'm better than you because I'm not like that even though I'm not religious!")
The various doctrines you talk about - such as communism, anthroposophy, etc., express human attempts to use logic a little beyond what they are capable of, while assuming the correctness of some axioms that are not necessarily correct.
In this they are similar to religion. Religion provides all the axioms regardless of the person and these doctrines may only provide a part of the out of the blue axioms while another part of them does indeed express real diagnoses about the nature of the person.
By the way, in my opinion, anthroposophy is complete nonsense and Rudolf Steiner was an idiot, but that does not belong to the current discussion.
The Second World War did confuse many people, but it did not give the basic facts and these are the facts I have already stated - whether in this response or in previous responses.
One of the "human" traits that she revealed in all her ugliness is that trait of a herd that I spoke about in the context of Arthur Koestler's book - that tendency of us to perform as part of a herd - actions that we would never think of doing as individuals.
I say that the war confused a lot of people because, for example, a lot of people drew the conclusion from it that there is something fundamentally bad about the Germans.
They failed to conclude that the behavior of the Germans simply expressed a not so familiar facet of human behavior, a facet that exists in all populations, as Milgram's experiments proved
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
and other experiments inspired by them.
This is an example of an inference that suffers from over-reduction, but we also come across over-extended conclusions such as "the damage that science causes" or "eugenics is taboo" or moral preaching along the lines of "what you are doing now Hitler also did and therefore you are as bad as Hitler" (I always answer this with an answer "Hitler also breathed so please - stop breathing").
Nazism was already predicted by the philosopher Jose Ortega y Gast when in 1932 he collected writings he wrote until 1929 in a book called "The Revolt of the Masses" in which he actually presents postmodernism (although he did not use this word because it had not yet been invented) as one of the originators of Nazism.
It is also interesting to read the articles of Zeev Bechler who also includes Kant as one of the culprits of postmodernism and Nazism. I agree with him.
I am definitely interested in the continued existence of the Jewish people, but not because the people are important to me, but because the people who make them up are important to me.
In the current circumstances - in light of the anti-Semitism directed towards all members of the Jewish people - there is great sense in organizing it within a state for the purpose of self-defense.
I was also brought up on my knees "the people as a value in itself" but I came to the conclusion that this detail in my education is wrong and provokes discussion. The people and the state are tools and not a goal. They are tools that are suitable for use in our time and will become unnecessary if and when better times come.
You are not raised to hate, but the seeds of conflict were planted in you as part of the education for "a nation of value".
There are also people among us who were clearly brought up to hate. In fact, there is the whole spectrum starting with the more refined education you received/adopted, passing through the belief that we are the "chosen people" and reaching the belief that "a good Arab is a dead Arab".
The distribution here is different from the one that exists among the Palestinians.
They are definitely brought up to hate and there is no point in toying with refined expressions.
In the debate with Amadeus I presented some links concerning the matter.
In fact - this hatred on which the Palestinians were raised is one of the reasons why I think we must act as a people but again - this is a situation that has a reason (I hope it is a temporary reason). This is not a goal for me.
The only goal I strive for in the long term is the maximization of human happiness that can be derived from the resources of the world in which we live, but to reach the long term we must survive the near term and this is where pragmatic considerations such as nations, states, wars and the like come into play.
I am definitely afraid of the Arab natural increase - not because I care how many children there are, but because it is clear to me that the brain of each such child has been brainwashed from day one and tamed for the attempt he will make to murder me.
This emphasizes the need for a Jewish state - that is, one where there is a Jewish majority and where every effort is made to prevent anti-Jewish brainwashing among the minorities.
In fact, the need for a Jewish state to protect the Jews was recognized by the United Nations and formed the basis for their recognition in the State of Israel.
It is a need that they do not dispute, and therefore they watch with amazement and anger at our attempts to bring millions of Arabs into the country by annexing territories. The citizens of Israel who push in this direction do not understand that by doing so they are harming the very legitimacy of the state because what is the point of a state that was established for the Jews if they are doing everything to have an Arab majority in it?
This behavior could put us in front of a broken trough when we want to get the world's backing for our opposition to the Arabs' "right" of return - an opposition that is part of the Israeli consensus and is still in the world consensus as well - but only because the world understands that bringing too many Arabs into the land will damage the Jewish state. This consensus will not last if we, with our own hands, damage the state's Judaism (I repeat and emphasize - Judaism as a people - not as a religion! The state's religious Judaism also ruins the vision of the sanctuary for the Jewish people by preventing, for religious reasons, the granting of citizenship to hundreds of thousands whom the Nazis would have murdered because of their Jewishness ).
The Law of Return (in its original wording as an antithesis to the Nuremberg Laws and not in its current wording that brought religion into the matter) is indeed an important law.
This is the only law that allows us to co-exist the words "Jewish and democratic" in our self-definition.
A democratic country is supposed to give all its citizens equal rights and duties regardless of religion, race, sex, orientation, and whatever else you want.
Therefore, any law enacted for religious reasons is invalid because by its very definition it deprives some of the citizens.
The Law of Return is different because it does not discriminate between citizens.
It does create discrimination - but precisely among those who are not citizens of the state.
It is legitimate in a democracy.
In fact - all immigration laws of all countries are discriminatory laws - whether on an economic basis, whether on a health basis or on another basis. There is no escaping this as long as there are countries.
In short - I too have a supreme interest in protecting my people - but not because the people are valuable but because this is the only way (or at least, the one with the highest probability of success) in which I think the individuals in this nation will be able to survive.
: )
By the way - according to the advertisement I also have many employees because I buy blue and white.
The truth is that more than I hope to convince the idiots - I am trying to make them understand that their attempt to fight sanity actually works against the goals they are trying to achieve.
That's why, for example, when someone attacks science on religious grounds - I move the war to his territory and after refuting his claims, I also attack religion.
I hope that even people who are not interested in the truth are sometimes able to understand that the war they are banning on the truth hurts the lie they are trying to spread
And of course,
Continue on a successful path with your many employers
I am sure you are on the verge of a breakthrough in persuasion!
It's OK,
In any case, I'm afraid that in the coming week I will hardly be free, already today was an unusual departure from the schedule that I have to dictate to myself
It is determined whether the conversation will continue in the future in this correspondence or in another correspondence that seems appropriate
In any case, I have enjoyed it a lot so far
Thank you
deer:
I will read when I have the chance and maybe I will answer.
I guess you see that all kinds of morons are making sure to provide me with work and therefore the sane people are being pushed back in the priorities.
Sorry for now.
Sorry for not answering until now
In the last two days I have been a bit busy and it will probably remain so for the entire coming week.
As for your response (204), I will start with an apology
You are challenging me by writing something that I have indeed formulated in conversations in PB many times, but writing it is new to me, so the writing may be a little (or a lot) confused. Moreover, every conversation with a new interlocutor requires new arguments and so, once again, the writing is stifling, with you the forgiveness.
Anyway,
I feel that we have a basic agreement regarding the understanding that the adult person has the duty to examine his upbringing and see which of the things he was educated on deserve to remain in the scale of values he adopted for himself and which are not.
This fact, in my opinion, is the main advantage of the secularist (I don't say secularism because it really isn't well defined) over the believer in the formal religion that sanctifies a certain set of values and laws as the words of the living God and hence prevents their re-examination.
(To my mind, at least, the main problem in religion is not belief in a higher power, but belief in its realization in the world in a pure form, at a given moment and in front of certain people, while leaving explicit instructions for action - of course, without this, by the way, ordinary religion is empty of content and all that remains is a philosophical journey in search of a truth that is very difficult to define - By the way, I'm interested in what your position is on this matter, but we'll probably leave that for another correspondence).
Also, I believe that there is an agreement between us that certain things we were raised on must remain a part of us, and no, human society will not be able to function and in this I believe that we will agree even on those things themselves (thou shalt not kill is the simplest and most trivial example).
The question of a person's identity is much more complex.
There is no doubt that on the immediate level your company will be able to survive even if no one believes in this value anymore. The question is about the implications of canceling this value for the longer term as well as the very programming of its cancellation.
In your opinion, the gap between people is an artificial result of cultural differences created by chance (simply, because wherever there are people a culture is created and there is no reason for it to be the same) and as the nature of many artificial things is bad, and is the source of hatred, alienation, wars and much human suffering.
In my opinion, this is not the case (at least not completely).
I'll start with the things I think we'll agree on and slowly I'll start presenting personal positions (I'll try to distinguish between the two, but I don't promise anything):
The cultural differences between different peoples are partly a natural consequence of the places where they developed (the nature of the Eskimos is expected to be different from that of the Bedouin), in some other cases they are a consequence of artificial circumstances.
In modern times and especially during the 19th century onwards, due to a wide variety of reasons based on the promotion of the importance of science (we are in 'Yaden' and therefore it is first), the processes of urbanization, the industrial revolution, etc., a natural process of decreasing the meaning of the connection between man and the earth began (Regardless of questions of value - simply today, 90% of the population is not engaged in agriculture and the people in Israel and Finland work in similar jobs), these processes naturally lead to the decline of the importance of the natural differences between the nations and hence the meaning of the natural causes is getting smaller and smaller and what remains are more and more artificial differences.
These processes led to competing worldviews:
One is the worldview that enshrines universality, this view has attracted many scientists and science enthusiasts (perhaps due to the universal and objective nature of science) as well as many Jews (not just Einstein with you) - and in the spirit of this view communism and American democracy were created together.
On the other hand, the national concept arose - this, perhaps fearing the loss of the existing frameworks of identity between people, tried to artificially sharpen the differences between the various nationalities, sometimes even while opposing modernization (which is beneficial in reducing natural gaps between nations) and mostly (and here is a major flaw) while Emphasizing the human value superiority of the members of one people over the other.
An interesting third world view (the spiritual ancestors of new green views) believed that artificial modern society was the problem and advocated that we should return to nature. This concept characterized German movements which were models for the thinking of the first groups (groups I mean bodies that preceded the kibbutzim). A side note, my brother by the way, who is interested in the subject and often reads about it, claims that at the beginning of Hashomer HaTsair there were conflicts between German-anarchist views (the legacy of A.D. Gordon) and Russian-Marxist views - initially the groups were characterized by the German character, but with the rise Nazism and the character went and changed - this is the transition from the group to the kibbutz. If I'm not mistaken, anthroposophical education (Waldorf education) was also created in Germany as part of the same nature, but I really don't understand enough about this subject and this is just my impression from conversations with those who know this education.
The 2nd MLA changed our lives a lot (certainly as Jews, but now I will speak as a citizen of the world)
And everything that gave birth to Nazism is henceforth considered evil, and perhaps other things as well (atomic bombs as a sign of the corrupting power of science, etc.).
The problem was what had to be changed (and this was exacerbated because Nazism was a rather small movement, incoherent and composed of many internal contradictions in its worldview which all tried to serve the purpose of the supremacy of the Aryan race):
On the one hand, Nazism was born out of modernization - it admired the scientific method and built its race theory on science, although it is fake, falsified and forced, but from the point of view of the general public, research on differences between races has since crossed a red line. It is important for me to emphasize that I think that the differences in abilities between the different races, if they exist, fall far short of the existing distribution between members of the same race and therefore are not substantial enough to give any importance to the cultural differences between races - however I think that in modern reality any research that is done on this subject He will immediately be dismissed as a racist if he does not draw the "right conclusions" - and this is part of the perception of science as a corrupting force, it is bad, irrational and even harmful thinking.
On the other hand - Nazism was certainly a national movement that had its origins in romantic, nationalistic and highly subjective thinking, and as such this kind of thinking was also disqualified.
These things, along with the decline of trust in authority, created postmodernism.
In my opinion, this worldview is quite destructive - it is mainly characterized by the absence of a statement, it gives a platform to any limited worldview, however limited it may be, provided that you accept the fact that it is not the only worldview - its economic and social positions are unknown and neither are its positions on issues of nationalism, attitude to nature, science or For everything else - everything is good and everything is questionable. The trouble is that this is the dominant worldview as some of humanity's last defined worldviews (add to that the old formal religion) didn't do too much good in their lifetimes.
in my opinion
It is important that society creates the belief that good exists and that it is possible to strive for it - certain ideologies are indeed better than others. The good ideology is also measured by its willingness to accept other theories (exactly from what we talked about at the beginning about the need to examine the existing scale of values) but not only - there are things in the world that are better and things that are less good.
In the matter of identity
I feel that man is a group animal by nature, belonging to groups of different sizes (starting with the family and ending with humanity) is necessary and natural. Many ideologies were characterized by a lie in which an attempt was made to establish the status of one identity over the others: the Christian-Catholic identity over the national identity (in the church), the human identity over the national identity (in global thinking), the community identity over the family identity (in the kibbutz), etc. . In my opinion, this lie was often a central feature of their failure (for example: translating the Bible into German was one of Martin Luther's first steps). These reefs are not essentially bad, they are man himself and even if I wanted to, I don't see how to change it - this is really human nature.
Identities can indeed change, when the Saxons arrived in England they and the local Celts created together a new identity which together fought the Norman invader, lost and then adopted him in order to produce the more modern English culture.
But for the most part the changing cultures do not have great depth and hence their ability to integrate with each other - I don't think there were deep mental differences between the Celts and the simple Normans, mainly because neither of them could read and write and in fact their whole essence was probably the sleight of hand they were engaged in - when they were on the same island, Inevitably the differences had to be reduced.
For our sake we
You asked whether in fact me and the Palestinian were brought up to be bitter enemies.
Well, from the Jewish side, the answer is definitely no - believe me, in all my years in the education system (until about 10 years ago), if there was brainwashing, then it did not include any national component, but only consisted of stupid postmodern slogans, such as: "There are no absolute truths." Always doubt", "there is no good and bad", "every nation has its own narrative", etc. sayings that even with a nation have some truth in them, because taking them out of context makes them empty of content (and thus you have a corresponding chest that doubts Einstein) in terms of the relationship to the conflict that the education was oriented towards belief in the possibility of having a peace process at any cost (an obviously irrational thing). If so, I was raised (mainly in a home characterized by a typical central floating voice) to at least want the physical preservation of the Jewish people. On this desire, from familiarity with your biography as you mentioned it as well as from your words in the conversation, I assume you are not interested in giving up.
On the Palestinian side, let's also assume that there was no education for hatred (although I'm really not sure about that and the evidence for this is abundant, starting with the PA textbooks and ending with the Islamization trends that clearly call for a holy war in me).
However, I am afraid that in this case the hand of history did not consider our wishes and a contradiction arose between the two. At the simplest level, the demography indicates that there is too much population in the West Bank of the Jordan and it is difficult for this small country to meet all the needs - moreover, it is understood that within decades the State of Israel will have an Arab majority and then I am afraid that even the promise of the physical existence of the people The Jew will be very hurt (I'm not talking about a massacre yet, but even simply about the cancellation of the Law of Return, which has grown in importance in an era of growing anti-Semitism), and this is without talking about the other features of the State of Israel, which I love.
In light of all these things, I am afraid that I have no choice but to protect the interests of my people (which in previous correspondence I tried to show you are backed by justification - but we will ignore that for now because it is really a subjective matter) and it is possible and even probable that the realization of these interests will harm the Palestinians .
Of course, the right thing would have been to try to behave wisely in order to reduce as much as possible the damage to both parties - but I am afraid that if you do not intend to convert to Islam, then it is very possible that continuing to defend your existence under your current identity will force you to both hurt and be hurt, and it is better to be aware of this and not to hang the blame Education for hatred simply does not exist, in my opinion, in the education system in which I grew up (poor education exists as I mentioned).
The crux of the point is, then, that as long as a person has formed in some way (education from home/school + values you have absorbed from self-searching + personal thoughts that mainly contribute to the sifting of the values that must be sifted) some kind of value backbone of self-identity, then he will sometimes find himself struggling On him when the struggle is decided against him sometimes not by his choice. In my opinion, this is the situation in which you and I stand with a sober view of life.
By the way, Zvi:
Part of the more detailed question you directed towards "Y" may not be justified on a personal level.
"Y" said that he actually went to work. He did not say anything about the army, but in my opinion, even if he did not serve in the army, it can be assumed that his opinion is not comfortable with the ultra-Orthodox evading him.
The debate between me and him unfolded against the background of our different opinions regarding the manner in which the ultra-Orthodox should participate in the effort and not regarding the actual need for their integration.
It is true that he reached harsh tones, but I do not forget this basic agreement.
deer:
True - without the "education" you received you would have been different, but it is important how you would have been different.
After all, the situation that emerges from your words in a terrifyingly sharp way is that you and the Palestinian have in fact been "raised" to become bitter enemies who have no way to reconcile.
Will this be called "education"?
That's why I called it brainwashing.
This, in my opinion, is the kind of thing that a smart enough person (and you are by definition) should classify, as an adult, as an aspect of the education he received that is not acceptable to him.
This decision will really make him a different person in some ways but it is similar to me to the decision of a person who was brought up in an environment where slaves are held - to go against slavery.
He will also rightly argue that defending the institution of slavery is part of the education he received and I will answer him (in my opinion - rightly) that this is a part of the education that he needs to overcome.
I know it's hard.
I was brought up in a religious home and even when I decided that I was no longer religious - I could not bring myself to eat food that was not kosher.
The fact that I decided at some point to become a vegetarian (by no means because of this), solved the problem for me without having to deal with it for too long.
I did deal with the question of the "right" granted to me on the land by virtue of history.
A person is looking for group affiliation.
It is a facet that exists in us for evolutionary reasons and its tastes with it.
In his book The ghost in the machine, Arthur Kestler wrote that humans have a kind of "bug" in this matter and group affiliation almost eliminates their identity as individuals.
It was easy to see the results of this movement under Nazi rule.
It is also easy to see his revelations in all religious settings.
People who feel that they "belong to a group" allow themselves to do acts that under no circumstances would have been carried out as individuals and all wars are based on this.
The point is that an enlightened person - if he knows his "biological" limitations - can harness them instead of being enslaved to them.
I know that I have a need to belong to a group and that is why I define groups for myself such as "the group of all people", "the group of people who seek the truth" and the like.
Believe me: it completely solves my problem and even fills me with joy.
Of course, all the discussion between us does not solve "Y" from answering you, and there is also a point in confronting him with the challenge of another approach that is also not compatible with his (at least on a conscious level because, as I said, the source of your sense of belonging is, in my opinion, actually religious - also if no one meant it)
Y ',
My first response in this chain of correspondence (193) was mainly addressed to you because I would really like to understand more why you claim that I need you to protect my rights in this country, and how this justifies your death from the many struggles that derive from the claim of this right (ie army, reserves etc.)
My question is not provocative,
I'm not asking you this as an advocate for the ultra-orthodox public, but in all honesty I want to understand what you say to yourself when you see that I serve in the reserves and you don't - how do you explain that to yourself, aren't you saying that I'm a sucker, you really believe that somewhere you live a whole and correct life Despite the fact that most of the secularists see your function as evasion - explain to me.
Even if you don't manage to convince me, or Michael or anyone else, it's not bad, that's the law of arguments, but when a good argument is conducted, maybe at least some of the misunderstandings are removed.
A large part of the Jewish culture did develop in the Diaspora (referring to the note I gave according to which we became a people in Egypt - according to the biblical story) - if this is the case, at no point did the Jews who lived in Babylon claim that because they are in Babylon they have a right to it - the Jewish people always connected themselves with the Land of Israel.
I don't like the claim about brainwashing, you can define any type of education for something you don't believe in as brainwashing and thereby disqualify it. I agree that as an adult, the answer to myself of "that's how I was brought up" is not a sufficient answer and does not allow for progress (this is also the reason why Hazi, Rufaim, Yehuda, etc. are not satisfied with the answers of the scientists and strive independently to research the truth - I was just kidding).
The point is that since I have a Jewish identity (and this may be a result of that upbringing, but the bottom line is that it is a part of me and without it I would be different) and I am interested in preserving that identity in myself and my children, then even if there is no anti-Semitism I would not want to live abroad (an expatriate) - and as a Jew, the only place where I can claim that I have the right to use force against someone else (and this would be called anywhere in the face of Kedah) to give expression to this identity, is the Land of Israel.
Sometimes, as in the American-Indian case, there is a conflict, two nations that were created in the same place and this is indeed a historical tragedy (many times history tends to be insensitive when it comes to the treatment of the individual and his ambitions) and therefore often there is no solution other than a struggle of forces, sometimes violent and sometimes not.
In the Israeli-Palestinian case, I believe on an intellectual level that the picture is asymmetric for the reasons I detailed in my first answer, of course, I don't expect the average Palestinian to say "You know what, I thought about it and you're right, so I'm going - peace" and this for several reasons:
A. He too has had some education and has some identity
B. There's nowhere else to go
third. His whole family lives here and so do his father and grandfather (and also his mother and grandmother for the feminists)
What I do expect is from the neutral intellectual and the average Jew, and in this case from Mr. Y., to understand that if these historical rights exist, then ours do not fall at all from the rights of the other side and even exceed them (with or without the ultra-orthodox Judaism represented by Y.).
In any case, I did not manage to convince the Palestinian and I do not believe that I will succeed,
Against him I have to adopt a different policy - a realistic one - and this policy can come in the way of war and it is better, if it is given peacefully - this is not a question of values (must make peace...) but of expediency since values, neither to the right nor to the left, do not solve things (you will not convince enemy of being a pacifist) - the solution is in a quiet balance of power (not very different from what you said in one of the previous correspondences, regarding the fact that what you need to worry about is life today).
In any case, please note that the set of interests here is not mine as an individual (because for me as an individual it is really not worth going to the army and even so, if I did, you would call me a parasite and rightly so), but of something specific - some group and the question of who do you include in the group cannot be solved by a comprehensive answer (all human beings), but is always solved by defining a certain identity group - in my case, I can tell you that this is the Jewish and Israeli intersection group - Y' is there, also Jessica Fishman, Ahmed is not ( For anyone who will stand up and shout racism - it really has nothing to do with it, those in my group are not inferior to me, but simply different, like saying about someone that he is not my brother, does not detract from him.) I believe that this cut constitutes the identity group for you as well, but I may be wrong.
Regarding the Poles, I agree with you, the separation was artificial but existed - and it seems that its cancellation (reducing the difference between us) was created precisely from the separation and from the fact that each of us runs a separate country without relying on and hating each other
You mentioned that you regret the fact that we live in Y because of the excuse it gives Y to say that we live here because of him
1. Let him say he wants to, I don't think so and I mentioned it.
2. I am more sorry for the great suffering caused to us and the Palestinians as a result of our lives (and their lives here)
3. This suffering would have been caused wherever we lived and therefore since I have to cause it somewhere anyway, I prefer it to be caused in a place where I have justification even with a certain certain (historical right) to cause it.
Deer (197):
The fact that (let's say) your culture developed here (and in my opinion most of it developed in exile in Babylon and other exiles) does not give you any right to the place.
What's the connection anyway?
I think that nowadays the internet is generally the "place" where all cultures develop and I don't think that anyone will demand ownership of the internet because of that.
In my opinion, the "right" you feel you have over the land due to the past is the result of brainwashing and you must take into account that your opponents over the land have undergone the opposite brainwashing.
That's just not a reason.
Land you did not buy or inherit does not belong to you.
Of course, there are exceptions that arise in war, but in war, right is not proven - only power is proven. How will you react if someone suddenly comes and proves to you with signs and wonders that he and his culture preceded you in your area of residence?
After all, all that needs to happen for that is for the previous tenants of that piece of land to define themselves as a "nation". Will you say sorry to them and leave your house? How do you think an American of European descent should respond to a similar claim by the Indians?
(By the way, it is interesting to recall the fact that some of the religious in general oppose the Jewish nation-state.
These contradictions are due to reality when all kinds of people claim to represent a supreme being that does not really exist)
Regarding the story about the Poles - pay attention to what you say:
We created artificial differences between us, so it's good that we separated physically.
This strengthens my argument - both regarding the fact that artificial differences are a source of conflicts and regarding the reason for the establishment of the state.
I think that although in a utopian way states are a bad thing - the State of Israel is indeed necessary - as long as there is antisemitism - but this is the only moral justification for its establishment.
This justification does not specifically give priority to the piece of land we chose for ourselves and I really regret this choice because it is used by the ultra-Orthodox as a (wrong but effective) rationale in presenting the false representation that our right to the land derives from their right.
On the other hand, I assume that from a practical point of view the state could not be established anywhere else because of the culture that developed in exile - the culture of the Zionist dream.
Deer (199):
If you are asking about the last link, then what happens to you personally or to you in general?
I was sent this from Hadosh (an association led by Rabbi Uri Regev that decided to act against the parasitism of the ultra-Orthodox) and I thought it would be appropriate to publish it here - as a response to the article and not as a response to your words that you never supported ultra-Orthodox education.
I don't fully understand if you are addressing this to me personally
In any case, I have no choice but to agree with you that ultra-orthodox education is indeed very problematic
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgz8mg3w_397hmrghz4c
I agree that it is very problematic to objectively discuss such matters, I am not saying that there is black or white here, but I think that sometimes you can differentiate between dark gray and light gray
The nation was not born in the place where its forefather (Ur Chaldeans) was born, but in the place where its culture developed - by the way, there is a certain problem here too, since the place where it is first indicated that Israel is a people is in the beginning of the book of Exodus - in Egypt. In any case, my point is that the people of Israel have an undeniable historical connection with AI.
Note that I do not mean that on the basis of historical right alone you must act, but it gives you the right, for example, to fight for your survival in this very place - the right that I live here is not enough (at least I think that colonialism is not justified).
I agree that rights will not help us in the war, and hence my initial appeal to Mr. Y., to remember that in addition to rights (of which his studies and prayers of course give us a great deal of these... - this is the reason why ultra-Orthodox Judaism took and continues to take such an active part in the Zionist effort) the practice also states - a settlement will be established , work the land and be right to protect what you think you deserve.
Of course, the fact that my family lives here today has the decisive contribution to my willingness to make an effort to continue living in Israel - more than the efforts of my ancestors who came out of Ur Kasdim - if that is the case I feel that it is not enough and on an objective level I need some justification (that the Arabs who fled Israel in 48 also wanted to continue living here ) - and this justification is given to me (so I think) by history. History is not meant to convince me that I want to fight, but that my feeling is correct and justified in this case.
(You can tell me I'm making excuses for myself, I don't think it would be true but you certainly wouldn't be the first).
As for globalization
I am not interested in entering into an economic discussion, a field in which it is quite possible that because you are twice my age and your extensive experience in life (as it emerged from your response a few days ago) you truly have more knowledge than I do. I'm not afraid of losing an argument, I just think that in a discussion about a subject in which I lack understanding, I'd rather listen than speak.
What's more, I think that globalization has many social effects, some of them negative and should not be ignored, the fact that the population of the West includes many foreigners that were not there before is a fact, as is the emptying of villages in Eastern Europe of their population. I think that these things have many negative results and if you would like a more practical example, I assume from your responses that you understand very well the consequences of the increase in the concentration of Muslims in Western Europe - not for us, but for the Europeans living there.
I agree that artificial separation between people leads to hatred and wars and is a bad and disgusting thing.
I simply do not think that the homogenous nation-states are not an artificial separation since it is the nature of people living in different places to be different from each other.
During the last summer, I went with my friend on a trip to Romania, the main part of which was several treks in the Carpathian Mountains (as a side note, it is a very beautiful country and still cheap - recommended). Anyway, on one of the train journeys we met a number of young Polish people and spent time and talked with them during the whole trip - really nice guys.
After that I happened to think that several generations back, our ancestors were probably not so friendly to each other - in fact they slaughtered us and we patronized them. What has made normal relations possible today is not the similarity between us (although to be honest that has also increased) but mainly the fact that the two different societies, the Jewish and the Polish, do not live side by side - each in their own place and therefore there is nothing to fight.
Even with the Romanian villagers in the mountains (whose culture is significantly different from theirs) there were no unpleasantries - everyone lives their own lives and it is clear that we are guests and not invaders (by the way, in the mountains you don't sleep with them or buy anything from them, so you can't hang on to the good relations in any interest).
In conclusion, it would be good for everyone to live their lives in their own homogeneous society when it is clear what is theirs and what is not (from a territorial point of view, let's say) - on the contrary, the differences between different peoples are natural and harmless - maybe even beneficial.
All of this is of course a very problematic hope as far as we are concerned in Israel because here homogeneity is not expected in the near future
Finally
Einstein and the Beatles are indeed good company (in their field and in general)
My opinion has not changed and I still think that historical consideration is almost necessarily unfair.
What is the birthplace of a people?
Sometimes it can be defined and sometimes not.
If the nation begins at a certain moment with a certain person then the size of this place is about a square meter.
According to Jewish tradition, this square meter is found in Ur Kasdim in Mesopotamia.
Abraham's descendants have since moved to all kinds of places, while they appropriated every place they reached, our problem was much greater.
The fact that someone else has no right to the place does not give you the right to it.
As mentioned, in my opinion the only way to resolve a conflict of the type we are in is to solve the problem of the people living today because "rights" will not help us in the war - especially not if the other side also thinks they have rights.
I think that in the end - your ability and willingness to protect the land is derived from the fact that you and your family live there now and not from the fact that in some unknown past your ancestors (perhaps) lived there.
It's a fact that you don't want to go back to Or Kasdim.
Globalization is only an economic matter and I don't think it is a bad thing.
Do you not agree with the claim that artificial separation between people leads to hatred and wars?
Don't you think that uniting efforts to defeat cancer, the energy crisis, the asteroid threat, and finding a way to get off the planet when we have to do so is no better than dividing efforts to go to war with each other?
Since both Einstein and the Beatles thought like me - I feel in good company.
Michael,
Historical consideration is not completely devoid of fairness.
Let's take the example of the Jewish-Arab conflict because it is convenient to demonstrate:
The question is not just who was here first (although in this case the Jews too), but who is his homeland and here there are ways to make an objective decision (how objective such an issue can be).
For example: Jerusalem was never the capital of any Muslim kingdom that ruled over it - in the Ottoman Empire for example (if I'm not mistaken) the Land of Israel was annexed to the district whose capital was Damascus. Another example: until the establishment of the State of Israel and in fact until the establishment of the PLO - there was no self-definition of Palestinians (=Arabs whose homeland is Israel), the main definition was as Arab.
Arguments denying the fact of Israel being the homeland of the Jewish people will be much more difficult for you to find (although anti-Semites and Jews have sometimes argued that the Jewish people are not really a people, an argument that may be true during the exile period but certainly not when Israel was in Israel).
So I do not base my right on the fact that I destroyed them or expelled them, on the contrary, I morally allowed myself to go to war thinking that it was my right - and that is why I will fight against those who try to expel me from here, but not against those who do not give me the right to visit some African banana republic (Because that is his right, even if I am stronger).
If so, my argument is really not an argument of any de alim man, nor an argument of "I was here first".
I agree with you that sometimes arguments of this type can be very difficult to examine objectively (certainly when I am on the side of the conflict) - and yet I think that in this case I have a point.
Solving the problem of the living beings today would of course be an optimal thing, but sometimes (in the case of a zero sum game) - the decision is made by force and I am right to use it because I think I am right.
Regarding your view about separation between people.
I do not think that the globalization phenomena of reducing the gaps between different cultures is a welcome phenomenon - especially since it causes societies to be heterogeneous in an unprecedented way. This heterogeneity is very dangerous and increases friction between people because, unfortunately, diversity causes alienation and alienation in turn will cause hatred.
The solution is homogeneous societies (doesn't contradict what you said) and if this takes place, the variation from place to place can be welcome and interesting (a postmodern comment on my part - not typical).
Finally, on the subject of the Holocaust
The importance of the UN vote in 47 is of course very important, however my argument is that Zionism existed (in a historically unusual way) even before it.
There is no doubt that the State of Israel, even if it had been established, would have looked completely different without the Holocaust (removing the diaspora from the Jewish people was much more difficult not to mention the opposite).
deer:
I think that historical considerations are of no importance and deny any fairness.
After all, before there were Jews here, there were others here, and you are actually basing your "right" on the fact that you destroyed or expelled them.
This kind of reasoning could be used by anyone who would destroy the Jews and settle in their place.
This is the reasoning of every Dalim man.
See my response to Eddie.
The problem that must be solved is the problem of the living beings today.
Personally, I think that anything designed to separate people (be it nationality, religion, language or any other artificial division of the human race) is a bad thing that ultimately only causes wars.
Historically - the State of Israel would not have been established without the vote of the United Nations and this resulted from the Holocaust.
Without such recognition by the countries of the world, no country would have been established, and without anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, the number of Jews who would have reached it would have been extremely small.
to me'
I do not agree with Michael's positions regarding the importance of my identity as a Jew -
This identity is important to me even though it does not determine my scientific positions (as is the case with other readers on the site).
If so, I feel that in the heat of the debate, a very reasonable question was not asked:
Is studying the Torah from morning to night the key to Jewish identity and the right to the land? (I will give the ultra-Orthodox public the credit because learning Torah from morning to night is indeed what happens - you know better than I do because this cannot be true for the entire public)
For 2000 years the people of Israel lived in exile - a life of detachment from the life of this world.
During all these years, even if there was an immigration to the Land of Israel, it was an immigration of individual individuals that did not create a mass movement that the Jewish identity motivated them to do real action. When a slightly larger movement arose (the students of the Gara) which arrived in Israel and began to engage in agriculture - there was no impetus for it and the Jewish community in exile continued its indifference.
This indifference is of course backed up by theological reasons ('three weeks that the Almighty has sworn', 'do not wake up and do not wake up', etc.) but there is also a lack of more "Zionist" interpretations of the Holy Scriptures (the Ramban) - so it is not Judaism that has paralyzed Judaism The exile but the fear of the reform, - a fear that worsened significantly after the collapse of the Sabbat movement and its results.
All this continued until the creation of Zionism
It was not the Holocaust that established the State of Israel -
In 1939 there was already a fairly large and organized Jewish community in Israel, which had already committed many acts as part of its struggle for independence - and this community was mostly secular (like Michael) - not ultra-Orthodox (like you) - and you cannot argue with these facts.
It is possible, as Rabbi Kook claimed, that the secular public will lose its sense of mission over the years and then, after great despair, will return to the bosom of Judaism and then the longed-for synthesis will be created. Maybe not.
It may be good and it may be bad. We'll wait and see (or not)
I agree that the right to fight for the land is not bought only in universities, in reserve service, in the establishment of high-tech companies, in writing books and poems, and not even in fighting (and all the French of Algiers or the English of India will testify to this) - but it is also not bought by renouncing this world and learning Ancient writings that in a strange historical way were canonized in one of the strange incidents of human thinking (and I'm not just talking about the Bible, but also and especially about the Mishnah, the Talmud and everything else).
The people of Israel have a right to their land that is given by one of the most proven Gushpankas in human history - with or without connection to the divine origin of the Bible.
I am not here because of the Holocaust (even on a technical level), not because of anti-Semitism and not because there are lots of Arabs everywhere.
I am here because this is my country, because this is the land where my ancestors became a nation and for which they dreamed for many years and in later generations, they even took real steps to fulfill this right - steps that otherwise, I hope, would have had the courage to do them myself (just as Jessica did Fishman that Michael mentioned in a previous response - but she is of course a real Gentile because her grandmother was not Jewish and it won't help how Jewish she feels - I wonder if Ruth the Moabite underwent a Reform or Orthodox conversion?)
Unfortunately, the fact that my distant ancestors only dreamed and did nothing practical in order to fulfill this right, originates mainly from the ultra-orthodox conservatism that still prevents you (as a public, of course) from taking part in the life of the Jewish-Israeli society that was established here.
I'm not only pained by the fact that you don't work, pay taxes, serve in the army, even though this certainly constitutes a significant financial burden -
I am pained by the fact that a part of my people still refuses to recognize the tremendous historical change brought about by Zionism - a lack of recognition that unfortunately drives us very far apart and causes the intense hatred felt by the majority of my public towards you.
I do not feel that I owe the yeshiva students my right to live here - my historical background is strong enough - I certainly feel that I would be happy if you would take part in the burden of a real Jewish life - which includes actual action for Jewish life (including the army, university work, etc.) and not just preservation of dead Jewish culture.
"Produce and multiply and fill the earth" is more important than "learn Torah all day long".
Machel
I wonder if you personally don't care if your children marry gentiles.
It's hard for me to know how one who belongs to the screaming minority pretends to know what the silent majority thinks.
Machel
The silent majority against you The silent majority is the believing majority and not the atheist.
Machel
From reading the rest of your words, it becomes clear that Judaism based on Torah and mitzvot is nonsense in your eyes.
If so, it is not at all understandable what your words mean: "taking Judaism in your hands"
Especially the fact from the story: that the groom refused to marry a woman who is undoubtedly a Gentile.
There are already reformers and conservatives, so what do you actually want to innovate?
After all, you will not be able to force Jews to assimilate.
Most of the secularists who keep a bit of tradition will absolutely refuse a wedding with a Gentile provider and it doesn't matter what law you make.
Jessica Fishman immigrated to Israel from the US seven years ago. Before she was born, her mother underwent a reform conversion that included Jewish studies and baptism in a mikvah. Her family was very active in the conservative community in Minnesota. Jewish school. cosher. Every Saturday the family went to the synagogue. As a teenager, Jessica came to Israel for six weeks as part of USY (the conservative youth movement), and fell in love with the country. When she grew up, Jessica did a year of volunteering in Israel as part of the 'Otzma' program of the Jewish Agency. When she finished college she decided to move up. She volunteered for the IDF. Full service, two years, as a lone soldier. She was an outstanding soldier. After the service she met M. They fell in love, were about to get married. When they got to the rabbinate they were told that Jessica was not Jewish. If they want to get married, convert. Jessica was offended to the core. No one ever doubted her Jewishness. M's mother refused the marriage if she did not convert. Relations became murky. they broke up. A week ago, Jessica vacated her rented apartment in Tel Aviv. She returns to the US. Jessica doesn't live here anymore.
The story was published by Samdar Shir in Yediot Ahronoth last week. Jessica's case is not an isolated one. Thousands of immigrants from Ethiopia and the former USSR receive similar treatment. Judaism must be taken back into our hands. The monopoly of the rabbinate cuts off Israel from its Jewish values.
Sign the petition so Jessica's case won't happen again.
When many thousands sign, Israeli politics will realize that the silent majority stops being silent.
Link to sign the petition
http://www.atzuma.co.il/giyurshave/
to:
Members of the Israeli government
Members of the current Knesset
We, the undersigned, call on the prime minister, ministers and members of the Knesset to wake up.
We are close to the breaking point.
The case of Jessica Fishman shows how much the State of Israel has deteriorated,
But this is not the only arena where we have allowed the extremists to take over our Jewish identity.
Judaism belongs to all of us: secular, orthodox, reformers, conservatives - and anyone
that his Jewish identity is important to him.
We stopped being silent.
We take back the ownership of the Jewish image of the state.
We invite you, politicians from all parties, to speak on our behalf.
You won't do it, others will do it for you. The silent majority will speak.
Link to sign the petition
http://www.atzuma.co.il/giyurshave/
When many thousands sign, Israeli politics will realize that the silent majority stops being silent.
Professor of Economics Dan Ben David, head of the Taub Center for Policy and Society Research
Absolutely worthy answer!
So many times to write the same principles?!
It can make a person very cynical in his reactions...
Avi,
Contrary to your words, the same "y", does not write at a high level. He writes religious slogans which he presents in the form of questions: "But why don't you privately try with all your might to move to another friendly and peaceful country?"
When we find out what the question means, we find in it exactly the religious slogans according to which the Land of Israel belongs only to the Jews, and especially only to religious Jews who sanctify the land, and the non-religious Jews are tolerated in it because they fulfill roles that the religious do not want to fulfill. The Arabs, according to this slogan-question, have absolutely no rights in Israel. Therefore, the Arabs deserve, at the very least, deportation carried out today through the settlements, and the non-religious are better off leaving on their own. The amount of audacity contained in this password question is absolutely mind boggling.
The rest of "Y"'s writing is also sloganeering, for example what he says is a catastrophe due to what he calls "assimilation". It should be remembered that the religious word "assimilation" does not mean anything but the continuation of a normal life for the people who marry and give birth to people like them.
The only thing that may be lost in the natural process of continuing life is the Jewish religion, a crocodile that devours all who approach its blessing.
Avi:
I answered him more than once.
It starts with the fact that I have to live somewhere and I happened to be born here.
It continues that my right to live here does not fall from anyone's right.
By the way - personally - I have a greater privilege than most people in Israel because the land I live on was bought by my wife's grandfather with full money from its Arab owner back in the XNUMXs.
My right is also greater, of course, than that of all those who did not serve in the army.
Although he makes sure to say that he doesn't want me to leave, he also made sure to say beforehand that I have no right to live here (and only he, in his goodness, gives me such a right) and after I explained to him that I have a right, he said that he didn't say that I didn't have a right.
So basically there are two questions here.
One is the question of my right to live here - a question that "Y" raised, received an answer, and then said he did not raise.
The second is the question of my private optimization in relation to my place of residence.
If we talk about rights, no one has the right to interfere with my private considerations in this matter, but nevertheless I explained part of my considerations in this optimization (other parts I explained on other occasions):
https://www.hayadan.org.il/does-et-look-like-us-2301101/#comment-261065
https://www.hayadan.org.il/chimps-are-smarter-then-human-2608093/#comment-241546
https://www.hayadan.org.il/common-ancestor-of-humans-modern-primates-2005094/#comment-221700
https://www.hayadan.org.il/circumcision-and-sperm-wars-21808082/#comment-131379
The consideration of "I was born here" is a consideration of convenience. Am I allowed to make considerations of convenience?
There is also a certain ideology because I really think that in the current era, which is still an anti-Semitic era, a refuge is needed for the Jewish people and I am willing to put effort into it. To run away from here privately, knowing that if everyone runs away another holocaust may occur is an immoral act. Since I am not religious, I also seriously consider all moral issues.
to Michael Rothschild,
The correspondence between you and Y started at a really high level.
It doesn't happen every day that a writer with one voice identifies as ultra-religious and writes in a way that can respect the usually problematic sector...
And it's a shame that the end of the correspondence is so jarring!
post Scriptum
Why don't you answer his last question with an answer worthy of its name?
I think a proper answer to its name could be quite interesting..
And I also think that many will be happy if you answer his last question with a level answer like you usually write!
When there is no answer then there is no answer.
J:
We didn't decide you were a liar, we proved it.
At the beginning of your current response you again lie and accuse me of things that are easy to see that are not true.
Therefore you may be able to continue, but alone.
After we've decided that I'm a liar, we can continue. But there is no need for you to repeat over and over and over again. Everyone who tried to respond to you here already understood that all our arguments are false.
Today in the USA the percentage of assimilation approaches fifty percent. It can be estimated that in the next generation or until you reach (if I knew how old you are...) old age, no catastrophe will occur in the USA or even any kind of anti-Semitic problems that will prevent you and your descendants from living there peacefully.
You know that too.
It took German anti-Semitism many, many years to erupt with such terrible violence. Do you know that Einstein, even if he wanted to, could not study (in his youth) at universities in Germany because he was Jewish? Neither he nor women.
And we are talking about thirty years before the Holocaust. So, by all logic, you will have many, many years to feel that the ground is starting to burn again with anti-Semitism in the USA as well.
True, maybe as a nation the leaders don't have the option to move everyone to the US. But why don't you personally try your best to move to another friendly and peaceful country? There is a more than likely chance that you and your sons and grandsons will succeed in living quietly and peacefully until you are completely assimilated among the Gentiles. Apparently, the chance that you will live in peace and quiet exists in the US much more than here. So why don't you try to move from here?
Why? Sorry but you don't answer it and avoid answering it time and time again. And I'm really intrigued to get a slightly more serious answer to that than the fact that you live here because of the holocaust that happened more than a year ago. I know I'm a liar so please avoid epithets in the next comment.
Just to be clear, I don't want you to leave the country. It's important to me that you stay here. But it is also important that you answer yourself seriously why you stay here. And you have many, many good reasons to stay here. One of them, and in my opinion the main one, is that you should remain Jewish and you should have your descendants remain Jewish.
J:
What are you talking about?!
I didn't bother to explain?!
If you want to read this sentence, here it is:
You lie!
After all, not only did I bother to explain, but even in your response you are trying to answer the explanation!
Yes! Anti-Semitism is a good enough reason and anti-Semitism is increasing because the fanatics for the religion of Islam are multiplying all over the world.
It is possible to calculate three to four generations when the need for the first three to four generations to live is ignored.
This is of course a stupid calculation because if these generations are destroyed there will be no generations after them.
I don't have it - I repeat: I don't have it! - Every reason and need to preserve the Jewish identity.
This was imposed on me by idiots from all over the world by defining me and my shoulders as a Jew.
I am satisfied with being a human being and I think it is much more moral and satisfying than being a "Jew" by any definition.
To me - the attempt of humans to artificially define groups to fight between is nothing more than a manifestation of mental illness.
Einstein also thought so in his attempt to bring about the establishment of a world government, the Beatles also thought so and expressed it in the song "Imagine" and I, the little one, also think so.
Some of your claims (as I even proved in this response) are patently false.
I'm not a liar, so when I come across a lie I don't say it's true.
The discussion with you is characterized by a number of characteristics that are common to all my discussions with ultra-Orthodox.
The anxious says A
I prove not A
The ultra-Orthodox does not refer to the proof and says B
I prove not B
And so it goes on forever.
The ultra-Orthodox never says "That's right, you were right, I was wrong when I said X".
He doesn't want to admit it because he wants the lie to continue to resonate.
Do you want me to prove it to you through your comments or can you find it yourself?
You always have the right to live here. Like everywhere else in the world. I just don't understand and you haven't bothered to explain why you bother living in such a problematic place. If your argument is anti-Semitism and the attempt to exterminate your people, then you are basically saying that there is a supreme value to preserving the identity (Jewish at least not religious) of the people as a unique group (at least in our eyes) in the world. Because otherwise it is not understandable why you bother to maintain this identity. Just mix among the Gentiles, you will be assimilated (XV) and in three or four generations, who knew that your descendants would have some kind of connection with the Jewish people.
Do you really believe that in the Holocaust there were no Armenians whose origin was Jewish and no one knew that after three or four generations? No one persecuted them because no one knew that any of their forefathers or mothers had ever been Jewish.
I don't think I'm wrong, I just don't think so, and I'm sure that even if you disagree with me, it's not delusional, and your claims, even if they don't agree XNUMX percent with my views, are neither delusional nor false. They are legitimate claims that I disagree with. And yes, I may admit, I may be wrong. But that's what I think, at least for EPA. And that doesn't disqualify you or your opinions. Hope you understand the difference.
So from what I understand you will not be happy to see your children marry ultra-Orthodox either, only that the big difference is in your attitude in case it happens. let it be. What does this have to do with the discussion?
J:
Let's stick to the truth.
You wrote "But, on the other hand. It is this group that gives you the legitimacy to live here as a Jewish people in a land that you conquered sixty years ago from another people. Without it, there is no real identity for the Jewish people."?
You wrote!
This is equivalent to the claim that I have no right to live here in Israel and the ones who give me the "right" to do so are the ultra-Orthodox.
This is a lie and I explained why.
I don't know how you argue.
You may argue with people even though you know you are wrong but I don't.
I only argue when I think I'm right, so it's completely natural for me to argue that I'm right.
When you argue with me are you saying you are wrong? I didn't see it.
In general - this personal attack you decided to attack me is simply sickening.
My (correct) generalizations are a response to your incorrect generalizations.
You wrote "Regarding a wedding between secular and ultra-Orthodox, I don't understand what you want. Would you be happy to see your children marry ultra-Orthodox? It is a mutual and quite natural fact that young people will end up with partners who live the same way they live."
This is a sentence that tries to convey symmetry while the situation is far from symmetrical and I tried to convey this understanding in my response.
The rest of your comment is arrogant moral preaching that is not worthy of consideration.
Michael I did not claim that you have no right to live in Israel. On the contrary, if you read carefully what I wrote, I argued that these and these need each other. You are the one who would have been happy if there were not Haredim here in Israel. And it's a pity. But according to your last comments, you always understand better what should be done, how should be done, what should be believed and how should be believed, and anyone who thinks otherwise is either delusional or a fraud.
Anyway, where do these assertions and generalizations of yours come from? In every ultra-orthodox house, there is a sheva on anyone who marries a secular person? All you have to do is hear about a few stories here and there and oops you already have a new template about the ultra-Orthodox public under your belt.
Continue to complain and continue to want everything immediately without any patience, continue to make the ultra-Orthodox not go out to work because it is not right that if they do not serve, to give them the opportunity to work at a younger age. The main thing is to be right. And establish the old system for another fifty years.
If Tommy Lapid had compromised at the time and agreed to the Tal Law, then in a decade the ultra-Orthodox would already be both servants and workers. What happens today is that you both eat the smelly fish and get kicked out of town. And all in the name of justice. The main thing is that you understand and you are right. So childish and arrogant.
How many times have I heard friends attack Netanyahu for lowering benefits and making more poor and two minutes later complain that the ultra-Orthodox are not working... they all want to eat the cake and leave it whole. And the main thing is that there is someone to blame.
The main thing is that you will continue to grumble even in the next fifty years about the politicians who do nothing, because you and all your friend extremists in the secular public and the ultra-Orthodox public are so fixed and so unwilling to compromise on anything, and do not allow anything to be moved here. The main thing is the locomotive. The main thing is to feel right.
In my opinion you should bring some of the heads of the Netori Karta into your party. The results of both of you will be the same, they are because they don't want to and you because you don't compromise.
Year:
Let's not play with words.
Drugs are not a problem in themselves and the problem is with those who consume them.
The problem is religion and the Bible is an important part of its essence.
I don't know how much you follow the discussions here, but I use every possible argument, including those that harm the essence of religion.
Everything in its time.
When they say there is no contradiction - I show that there is a contradiction and I do it using the simplest example.
When they start arguing - I argue better and show more knowledge than they do.
When morality is mentioned - I show them how immoral their religion is.
If you are a part of my war then the last thing you should do is fight me.
Now you tell me you would have fought differently but first you tried to put a nail in my wheels (lucky I had tank chains and you couldn't do that).
If you think there is a better argument than the one I gave in an argument with someone you can simply write your own comment directed at them and not shoot yourself in the foot by trying to tattoo my argument.
Machel,
"The problem with you is the tendency of the religious to believe..."
From this sentence itself it becomes clear that the problem is with the religious and not with the Torah.
If you ever hope to convince religious people that the stories of the Torah are literature and not history you have to refute with a seminal debate such as the Exodus, since the rabbits do not concern the religious, most of them do not know about their reality in the Torah.
But in fact you also know from us what I learned later, that when my religious says Torah he does not mean the books of the Torah but the opinion of his rabbi.
And what's more, even religious people whose reasoning for the "commandments" (ie the fictions) are unfounded in their eyes, such as Yeshayahu Leibovich, continue to perform these games without any 'ideological difficulty'.
At the same time that a significant part of the Tanakh stories were written, Herodotus' "History" was written in Greek. Also in this book there are things that are considered to be true, and others that are not true, and still others that we do not know how close they are to the truth.
A difference from the truth can disprove an opinion, but not a book.
Year:
The Torah is indeed a literary work (and in my opinion - not one of the best of them).
The problem with you (a problem that your responses also demonstrate) is the tendency of the religious (actually it is not a tendency but part of their mitzvot) to believe that what is told in it is true.
This is demonstrated in your responses by the claim that it is impossible to "disprove the whole thing".
It's like someone telling me I'm a son of a whore, and when I tell him that his words are unfounded, he'll tell me it's not true because I can't disprove the fact that I'm a son.
The rabbit is a good example from the Exodus because rabbits can still be found today and we have not yet opened machines for traveling back in time.
The Torah is a literary work.
It is not a totality that disproving a few matters in it disproves the whole.
By the way, I don't understand why when you show the believers what a far-fetched matter you treat rabbits. Much more impressive is the Exodus.
Of course, stories of A.B. Joshua is irrelevant because no one claims that they describe something that exists or happened in reality.
The religion attributes truths to the Torah and it is this truth that is refuted.
When someone says in the first place that he fabricated his words, there is no point in trying to refute them, but when someone presents false claims as true claims - the refutation is important.
Well, Yair, then you don't understand the word "refutation" either.
If there are things in the Torah that can be refuted, then the Torah can be refuted.
When some things are proven to be false, then the correctness of the Torah is disproved.
Machel,
Many things in the Torah can be refuted, and many things in it cannot be refuted, and indeed the Torah cannot be refuted, just as one cannot refute a number of AB. Joshua.
Jacob:
Yosef Rothman talks nonsense.
Among other things, he says that the Torah cannot be refuted and is therefore not a scientific theory.
I don't know what he doesn't understand about the expression "can be refuted" - is it the word "can be" or the word "refutation" but it is clear that the rabbit rummaging is refutable, as well as the fact that the Euphrates and the Tigris come from a common source.
Maybe for him "not possible" is simply "forbidden" but you will know.
By the way, here is a 12-year-old skit that I think is still valid today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tMQ2Wg9q3E&feature=player_embedded
Regarding evolution, which was mentioned several times in the comments here, I wanted to refer the commenters to an article I read not long ago on the biology teachers website. In issue 180 published this year, there is an article by Dr. Yosef Rothman on religion and evolution that attempts to prove that not only is there no contradiction between them, but that evolution is necessary for understanding God's leadership in the world. The writer was a biology lecturer at Bar Ilan University for many years and declares himself an ultra-Orthodox Jew.
http://bioteach.snunit.k12.il/upload/.html10/alon180.html
Under reviews - the third article.
warmly recommended.
J:
Listen - it's getting weird.
If you deny my right to live in a country that the nation voted to establish to protect the Jews from anti-Semitism and not to protect the Jewish religion, you are wildly exaggerating.
You are welcome to read what I wrote to Eddie about it:
https://www.hayadan.org.il/does-et-look-like-us-2301101/#comment-261065
When an ultra-Orthodox woman marries a secular woman - in the ultra-orthodox house they sit on their side seven and in the secular house they just hope that their side does not cut ties with them because of the ultra-Orthodox. I know many such cases.
Seculars are leaving the country because of the ultra-Orthodox and there is no doubt about that.
Some also do this explicitly - you are welcome to read the parentheses in response 143.
Some of them do this unconsciously (the burden of the taxes and the burden of the reserves have broken on them and they are not aware that a large part of this burden is caused by the evading population).
The secular escape from Jerusalem cannot be hidden and there is no longer anyone from Bnei Brak to escape.
This trend is spreading throughout the country and in the end the secularists will have nowhere to run except abroad.
J, some comments on your words. First of all, you didn't understand my intention, I didn't say that the two groups need each other. In my opinion, Israel will not survive without secularists, but it will survive without ultra-Orthodox. Maybe you contribute to culture and mutual diversity in Israel, but you contribute nothing, in my opinion, to Israel's resilience, which is based on a supremacy that is diminishing in education, technology and enlightenment in the face of our enemies who want to exterminate us. I don't see how the yeshiva contribute more than the universities, on the contrary. So why, as a student, did I have to go to the reserves during the exams when an ultra-Orthodox guy didn't even hear or know what a decree is?
It doesn't bother me so much that you are different, don't marry secular people. But at least donate, after all, even the Druze and Bedouin donate, but on the other hand, they don't sit at the head of the finance committee of the Knesset.
Give me one justification why you deserve the privileges of not serving?
And one last thing, I don't know how many seculars left the country because of the ultra-orthodox, although I'm sure this is one of the considerations. What I do know is that Jerusalem is becoming empty of secular young people because of the ultra-Orthodox and that is a fact.
R.H.
You joined the discussion late. You are right that these and these cannot live alone and both groups violate and contribute to each other.
I don't think the ultra-orthodox alone are responsible for the division that exists in the nation today. It is easy to blame the other group in which you do not live and place all the responsibility on them and only them. It clears you of responsibility and compromise and gives yourself the legitimacy to demand only from the other group to change and give up.
But, usually this causes the groups to converge and become radicalized and does not really manage to lead to stable changes in the long term.
It is true that the situation among the ultra-orthodox today is problematic. Both the failure to serve in the army (or national service) and the low participation in the creative workforce. But, once again the solution to this is not in arguing and rash decisions. The solution to this should come through cooperation and a systematic and fundamental change.
But on the other side. It is this group that gives you the legitimacy to live here as a Jewish people in a land that you conquered sixty years ago from another people. Without it, there is no true identity for the Jewish people.
Whether you are a believer or an atheist, you should also consider the tremendous contribution that the Torah scholars give to the Jewish people for generations. And as I have already written, you also have to thank your great-grandfather or great-great-grandfather who was ultra-Orthodox, otherwise it is likely that you would be living in Europe today (if you come from Ashkenaz), with a Russian German identity or whatever, without any connection to Israel.
It may be what you would prefer, but then don't complain about those who live here in the country who came here out of a sense of Jewish identity.
Beyond that. The secular society also needs to take stock of the division. for example:
As an ultra-Orthodox, I am shocked every time there is an article with some kind of touch on the ultra-Orthodox world. And it doesn't matter if the article concerns a group from the ultra-Orthodox public or a private ultra-Orthodox person. There is always a picture of ultra-Orthodox people regardless of the topic or subject of the article. As if it is a uniform and inhuman group...
I once showed a friend an article in NRG about a private ultra-Orthodox person who had a falling out with his friend and tried to blackmail him or something like that. The photo in the article was of ultra-Orthodox and the caption under the photo was unmistakably "Orthodox". So, in one word. "religious". There is wild incitement against the ultra-Orthodox today in the secular media, which has long since deviated from legitimate norms.
I invite you to try the next time you come across an article about the ultra-Orthodox, to take the article and change the term "Orthodox" to "Arabs". You will be shocked. What passes for you so easily when you read about the ultra-Orthodox because you've gotten used to it will jump you (and it's a good thing) when you read the same article about the Arabs.
Regarding the wedding between secular and ultra-Orthodox, I don't understand what you want. Would you be happy to see your children marry ultra-Orthodox? It is a mutual fact and quite natural that young people will end up with partners who live the same way they live.
Are secularists leaving the country because of the ultra-Orthodox? come on.
Bob:
Regarding response 160 - you are right.
The ultra-Orthodox cannot compromise because they think it is their right and duty to determine how others will behave (in this case - their spouses).
In other words - they cannot compromise because of their fascism.
You are also right in answer 161 - the strength of a nation is not determined by its numbers, but Shalom Hanoch already wrote the poem about that.don't call me a people".
In general - the question is what is a people.
A people is an association of people to promote a common goal.
This goal can be a shared idea and it can be personal survival (generalized - of course - it's actually the survival of the genes).
In most cases - the common idea is also related in one way or another to personal survival, but not always, so I still define the two goals as different goals.
If it is a shared idea - then the idea of the Jewish religion is a horrifying idea to me - one of the least moral ideas I have ever encountered. Certainly there is no logic in sacrificing one's life for this idea.
If the goal is personal survival then the sentence you said is absurd because then the association as a people does not achieve its goal. It's simply a reversal of creativity, because in this case, humans band together to preserve themselves and not to destroy themselves.
Heinlein, so de facto the ultra-orthodox are dividing the people. If so, then what is all the talk about one nation, we are brothers? Is there a real difference from the point of view of the ultra-Orthodox between a Christian and a secular? It's been a wedding, we'll get over it. But when they throw an Ethiopian girl out of school it is unforgivable.
Another point is that you write "the ultra-orthodox cannot". Why can't they always? Why are their principles always more important? Why are their feelings always hurt? Do secularists have no feelings? When you pinch them, don't they cry?
Michael, you claim that Judaism is something that preserves itself but destroys its believers, therefore it is harmful and should be abandoned.
Let me quote Frank Herbert for you:
God created Arakis to train the faithful.
The resilience of a people is not measured by its numbers, and the "Jewish people" is not a nation in the conventional sense of the word (what is common, for example, between Jews of Russian, Yemeni, European or Ethiopian origin?)
R.H.:
A secular woman cannot marry an ultra-Orthodox woman, simply because in the most basic matters involved in running a family, the differences are irreconcilable. Haredi or Haredi cannot compromise, neither on going to the woman's mikvah, nor on keeping Shabbat and kosher at home. If the secularist compromises on all three of these important issues, they have already become de facto ultra-Orthodox for all intents and purposes.
J. Beautiful words indeed. Live in Israel and marry Jews. Keep your identity. When was the last time you saw a secular wedding with an ultra-Orthodox? The one who alienated and divided the people is you. The one who causes the downfall of many secularists and ultimately their assimilation is you with the impossible laws and rules you set.
How long do you think the secular public will be able to bear the burden of security and the burden of taxes when a logarithmically growing segment of the people evades its obligations?
Think how long the State of Israel would have survived if at once all the seculars had disappeared and how long it would have survived if all the ultra-Orthodox had disappeared? The State of Israel survives due to its technological superiority which also allows the ultra-orthodox public to live their lives. So please don't spit into the well you drink (what drink, pump and pump...) from it.
Joseph:
You may have realized this yet, but I don't work for you.
Machel
Make a vote among the surfers on the site here.
With the question of whether or not slogans convey a definite anti-Orthodox and religious message or not.
Joseph:
There is no cleverness there and your cleverness won't change that.
The collaboration with Hadosh is authentic.
You simply attribute to the person who wrote the content of the site qualities that you probably find in yourself, therefore everything written in it seems to you as if they did not mean it seriously.
Can you show me the internet option you use to see what the real intent of someone you suspect of not writing what they really meant?
Machel
The message there is a clever message, a message of a combine.
You will not succeed in deceiving any Israeli who, in the name of pluralism and religionless democracy, the party brings together the religious and the ultra-Orthodox. What kind of religious freedom does a person who reads the slogans there think about.
Freedom of religion Christian Muslim the religion of the Sudanese or of the Indians.
Everyone understands that the message is freedom from religion and the religious, this is understood as anti.
Anti is emphasized precisely because of the attempt to hide under slogans of freedom and unity.
The impression of this self-righteousness is a form of deception and trickery.
The messages do not transmit cleanliness and honesty and openness but on the contrary the feeling is of a small clique trying something.
Joseph:
All your words are not true and those who doubt the matter are welcome to go to the website and see that there is nothing there that transmits anti.
The truth is that the party cooperates with Hadosh (led by Rabbi Regev).
All this anti is in your private head.
A. Opinions differ as to whether Trumpeldor was original. I once heard from an elderly Jew who was a soldier in the US Army in World War II. He said that General Eisenhower (if I'm not mistaken), gathered some battalions and gave them a motivational speech. "Have you heard about it is good to die for our country"? he asked them. "So I want you to put it out of your mind. Make sure they (the Germans) die for their country and you will live..."
B. The preservation of the ethereal something in me stems from faith in God, regardless of democracy, human rights, etc. My question to you was, what are you guarding? Why is it important to you (or not - Michael will immediately correct me that I don't read minds...) that your children marry Jews?
And if it is not important to you, then why do you live in such a difficult country and not try to move to western countries that are richer (USA) and quieter (Europe) and with a greater quality of life (Scandinavia)? Why don't you fight for your children to live a peaceful and richer life?
I have no idea if I'm right, because I haven't read if anyone has checked this figure statistically, but aren't your children more likely to work at CERN (for example) if they live in Switzerland than in Israel? I believe so.
So what are you fighting for? Why are you willing to live here in Israel? What are you trying to protect?
And why actually preserve the Jewish identity here in the country? Maybe we will give the residents of Judea and Samaria the right to vote, we will establish one common state and we will slowly establish here a new mixed nation of both Jews and Arabs? This seems to me to be an adequate, non-racist solution that is suitable for resolving the conflict. No? Isn't it time to delete the Jewish definition from the scroll of advice?
According to the way I understand it, then one of two things: either this is indeed your ideology, and you would be happy about the absorption of the residents of Yosh into Israel (if they want it - recently the voices in favor of a common state are increasing there), or I was right about Michael's thoughts... and still you They want to preserve the Jewish identity in the country (and leave the issue of religion for now).
to me. I mean, are you willing to give up democracy, civil rights and have what to eat, who to marry, just to keep something ethereal? I did not hear that Trumpeldor said it was good to die for our religion.
As usual... I'll be happy to help the next time you're confused 🙂
J:
It's really great to have someone who knows my thoughts better than I do.
How would I know what to think if I hadn't read your words?
Michael
Why don't you aspire to move to the USA where assimilation is close to 50%. Give your children the option to separate from the Jewish people and be less identified with a unique group.
You don't do that because you also know the virtues of the Jewish people. It is impossible to argue with the intelligent and intellectual capacity of the Jewish people. Both before the Holocaust in Europe and after the Holocaust in the USA, the advantage of the Jewish people is obvious to all.
Yes, racism is not racism. You also want and choose to be considered the smartest people in the world (close to 20% of the Nobel Prize winners - maybe a little less - compared to a 0.2% share of the world's population).
The late Tommy Lapid explained this once that it happened because among the Jews they sanctified the Torah scholars and indeed the good girls who matched the Torah scholars...
No matter what the reason we argue about (the chosen people / evolution), the result is hard to disagree with.
In short, you also thank Sach or my grandfather Sach, an ultra-Orthodox in Europe who preserved his Jewish identity (Orthodox...) and did not assimilate among the gentiles. Otherwise it is not understandable why and why you chose to sit here in a land full of suffering and wars. And why don't you give your children the opportunity to be swallowed up among all the nations and not be persecuted (it will take a generation or three, but in the end they will no longer know their origin).
From:
With all due respect to the clean image, etc. together with whom? Only secular without religious?
It is true that such unity is also good. any unity
But the site broadcasts intolerance towards religion and religious people and the whole culture of religion.
Whereas most of the secularists are not ready to accept such a rejection. Because some of them all believe even without observing mitzvot.
You see it not only in Israel but also when you go abroad and meet Jews from all streams. So everyone has a corner in their heart for religion and Judaism in some way.
It seems to me that you in the party do not understand that for all Jews the word "unity" is a flag that evokes a great deal of emotion. But don't be mistaken, this feeling is tied to the navel in the religion of Judaism and from there it originates, it is right in the genes.
Therefore, it seems to me that the site is very naive and does not see reality as it is.
Joseph:
Why are you just talking?
Where do you see a website that is "anti"?
Everything there is actually in favor of "togetherness" - in favor of partnership in everything.
I don't want to discuss it here - because this is not the place - and therefore I will not address the issue of naivety in thinking that if the problem is covered up (as all the parties have done so far) it will be solved, but on baseless claims like the anti claim which is nothing but anti-truth, I felt obliged to respond.
To be honest, the arguments sound a bit lame. How can mathematical laws be applied to humans.
I looked at the Light Party website. Gives the impression of nice and very naive and somewhat delusional people. Why do we need another party? There are not enough parties. Someone there believes that you will enter the Knesset. how? It's a shame that the platform goes for the anti. Why won't there be a party that goes together.
It's probably not attractive enough!
enough:
There is a solution and it is presented in the platform of that party, but it is not at all clear whether the implementation of the solution will be possible because people here wake up too late.
As you can understand from what I said before, the level at which I see myself as a Jew - does not belong to religion but to the fact that the Nazis would persecute me because of my Jewishness even if I believed in Hitler.
In principle, I am against any artificial separation between people because that is what creates wars, but I cannot be part of those who choose to separate me from him. Defining myself as a Jew is the result of a necessity that stems from others defining me as a Jew.
This definition is by its very definition racist and therefore the State of Israel is founded on racism, but this does not cause me any qualms because it is affirmative racism (on the weight of affirmative discrimination). It gives privileges to those whose rights in the rest of the world are under constant threat.
What is beautiful is that it is possible to reconcile the word "Jewish" with the word "democratic" in the definition of the state as "Jewish and democratic" but the only opening that allows this is in the field of immigration laws.
In a democratic country no law must discriminate between citizens. This means that no law operating within the country must favor Judaism over Islam.
What is special about the immigration laws is the fact that they do not apply to the citizens of the country at all!
After all, these are exactly the laws that determine when a non-citizen can obtain citizenship, and they do not limit those who are already citizens in any way.
They do discriminate between people but not between the citizens of the country.
Therefore it is possible that the immigration laws will favor people of Jewish origin (race) without harming democracy.
It must be remembered that in virtually every country - immigration laws are discriminatory laws.
In some countries the discrimination is on an economic basis and in others it is on a health basis but there is always discrimination.
On one thing all parts of the people who are not ultra-orthodox agree unanimously. Orthodox ignorance must be eradicated. How do we do it? Take them out of the government (as was said before, by adopting the way of Avigdor Lieberman on the subject of the government system) and stop budgeting for them and they will disappear as they came. All the ultra-Orthodox and their rabbis are corrupt people who use religion contemptuously to make money. They destroy the beauty of the Jewish religion through different interpretations of all kinds, as if rabbis invent because they are bored because the rest of the citizens finance them and all that is left to do is to grind all their nonsense laws and studies a billion times, eat and swell to the dimensions of a hot air balloon and drink. And Mr. Haredi Adok, do you think you will reach a block of 40 mandates? Ha! Maybe 20 with a little (a lot) of luck, and you know why? Because after a revisionist president (with a presidential system of government) like Avigdor Lieberman comes and erases all the unjustified budgeting you receive from the country you don't recognize and from the pockets of the unbelieving secularists, a wave of ultra-Orthodox will come back with the question that 70% of you are ultra-Orthodox just to not form an army and receive money from the state, As soon as you have to sweat to earn your money and you have no interest in remaining ultra-Orthodox, you will stop being ultra-Orthodox.
Michael:
I read the article, I had no idea how serious the situation was.
But also in Israel the situation is on the face. Even if we forget for a moment the Arab residents, the Jewish people are divided and everyone is against everyone. This is the biggest problem.. Who is a Jew? How can a person who does not believe in God be a Jew? There is a small contradiction here. What is certain is that they are all human, and they are all Israelis, but there is still hatred from within and racism and a battle over who is the true Jew. And from here to the second link you sent, I am happy that there is such a party at last (I was not aware of its existence before I left), but unfortunately the opponents are simply multiplying at a rate that cannot be kept up just like in Britain. I personally still wonder if there is any solution to this huge problem of the state's identity.
By the way, Hardok is a liar:
Lying is probably also considered to you as respect for others.
Indeed - you justify the image that stuck to you and your friends.
Hardok is a liar:
Your first response in this discussion addressed my father and me and said, among other nonsense, the following:
"You and Gabi Gazit and Anat Kam and Haaretz journalists and all your good friends will be encouraged to buy a one-way ticket to a democratic country where there will be no ultra-Orthodox. And came to Zion a redeemer."
Indeed, you truly respect others! You don't use insulting expressions towards him! You are a man of action and therefore you prefer to eliminate or expel him!
Despite all your conjectures you don't come close to describing the history of my family, but it's really not important because even things you know don't prevent you from stating the opposite of them.
Harduk,
You described very well how nothing has changed in Judaism - not even a speck of iodine for thousands of years.
This explains well why nothing important new came out of the house of the rabbis, except for an increasingly sophisticated interpretation of an old and out-of-date book.
The more the world progresses, the more difficult the interpretation becomes, because it is more and more difficult to interpret ancient and fossilized knowledge so that it seems as if it corresponds to new and advanced knowledge.
A bit of a waste of time and resources of those geniuses, who could have advanced human knowledge instead of engaging in useless interpretation.
Mr. Holocaust denier, did you come back under a different name? If so, all your comments will be blocked under your new nicknames as well. The one who denies the Holocaust as if millions of people who suffered in ghettos in the forests, etc. are not Holocaust survivors.
From:
Sorry if my assumption was wrong. My parents both spent time in extermination camps attached to Auschwitz in Birkenau and went through Mengele's Mion.
Was your father in ghetto or partisan camps?
As I understood from your response, he became anti-religious after the Holocaust. And of course it's no wonder, but you went more extreme in my opinion. Note that throughout the discussion I did not use words of insult and disrespect towards you.
You, on the other hand, do not respect the person you are arguing with and tend to use insulting language and nicknames.
You don't come off so well as a human being like that. It does not make you more righteous if you manage to humiliate the other.
It just indicates a lack of confidence and a lack of faith in your own way.
If you truly believed in your extreme anti-religious attitude you would not need the insults.
Exactly what happened yesterday with the broadcaster Gabi Gazit who exaggerates his statements to attract attention and because there
He probably has great inner frustration. I would not be surprised if in the past he came from a religious home and he brings his frustrations from his youth to the radio.
Hardok:
There are areas in which I am not knowledgeable, but unlike you, I do not make statements in these areas.
You allow yourself to fabricate an alternative reality in every response of yours - including in the areas of my biography and that of my family, and I'm tired of chatting with liars.
Mr. Machal:
Is there something you are not good at?!
From the nonsense of your words it is clear to me that you do not know a thing and a half about Torah and Talmud.
You may have learned to quote some things, but you do not understand the simplest contexts and the course of Talmudic thinking. One of the basic principles is the integrativeness of one word to all other things in the Torah and Talmud.
The peoples of different countries and species usually bring different passages of texts and interpret them as their hearts see in complete ignorance.
And try to prove from the Torah and the Talmud that there are such and such contradictions that are incompatible with the so-called religious principles. Such things you can as the people of the country challenge with the country another like you. But not beyond that all the questions
The quotes I understand by which you claim knowledge only show your ignorance.
Surely you will be able to hold the eyes of the ignorant who will think that here you have proved one way or another that you learned and the Torah is false.
Debard tells you simply why contradictory claims that "Baki" like you are supposed to claim are all nonsense.
After all, the Tahs who worked and created the development of the Talmud throughout the generations especially kept the rules of integration.
according to them each article and each scripture connects and completes each of the other scriptures. Most of the issues in the Gemara discuss questions of contradictions and inconsistencies of various kinds that have been investigated in thousands of ways in thousands of issues.
In front of these geniuses of the world, you "the Bekki" came and found a contradiction. You Mr. "Habki" know more than the geniuses of all generations
Authors of the first and last Shas.
It's just like someone who learned a little physics from Wikipedia would come and ask a physics professor about a contradiction that exists
in quantum theory. After all, they usually won't answer one like that because it just confuses the mind.
The same is the case with the knowledge you yourself claim to have in Torah and Talmud.
On this it is written that it is wisdom to answer a fool according to his folly.
By the way of your words, I assume that your father was not in the camps or in Europe at all during the Holocaust.
enough:
Further, I suggest you also visit the following website:
http://www.orr.org.il
enough (122):
What hypocrisy is there in living where I was born?
what do you expect me to do will i die
Of course, the original purpose for which the state was established has nothing to do with the Jewish religion.
The country is being gradually hijacked by the religious mafia, but I (and my father) are trying to change that.
The purpose for which the state was established is for it to serve as a refuge for the Jewish people.
That is why the Law of Return was originally drafted as a law that is symmetrical to the Nuremberg Laws: those whom the Nuremberg Laws ordered to be destroyed - the (original) Law of Return commands to be preferred over others in granting citizenship.
The hijacking of the state by religion is indeed also manifested in the fact that the state no longer fulfills its role and today there are many people whom the Nazis would have exterminated because of their Jewishness, while the state of Israel refuses to take in - supposedly because they are not Jewish.
In any case - this is not a matter of hypocrisy - as people of Jewish origin, as those whom the Nazis were murderers, we have every right to live in a country that was created to serve us as a refuge.
I agree with you that a world without religions and states would be better (and I have written this many times - also on the pages of this website) but the matter is not entirely in our hands and all we can do is determine our place of residence in the existing world (where on the one hand we are persecuted by anti-Semites and on the other us Haredoks) at the same point where we think that our chances of governing and influencing the development trends of the world are better.
In this context and in other contexts of this discussion, I recommend also reading the following article by Guy Bekur:
http://www.gplanet.co.il/prodetailsamewin.asp?pro_id=1142
Hardok:
There is no connection between your words and reality.
I do not belittle the victims of the Holocaust - in fact my father's entire family was destroyed in it (he is the only survivor among his parents and sisters, uncles and other relatives).
Your hope that I know only a little bit of the Torah and Talmud was disappointed because I know them very well - probably more than you.
The amount of text in a nonsense book means nothing.
I don't know how many texts there are in Hinduism but if you write a book based on the length of its text then I guess you prefer the book "Mein Kampf" to the book "The Little Prince". This is a very strange approach to evaluating books.
Secularism was not born as a result of the Holocaust.
There is no greater nonsense than this.
There are secularists among the descendants of believers of all religions and there is nothing to do with the Holocaust.
Herzl was also secular and active before the Holocaust.
It is true that those with common sense at the core understand that if God were good - as religion confuses us - the Holocaust would not have happened, but it is clear that in times of need people can also get caught up in stupid beliefs like the belief in religion.
The most ridiculous is the war you wage against reason and in the name of luck.
I have no words.
What's nice is that you try to convince me through reason! Why don't you trust me to convince you of luck without you saying anything?
That way at least it will be easier for both of us: you won't have to write nonsense and I won't have to read it.
Lovey: I understand why my comment will remain in the status of waiting for approval probably forever. It's OK. I'm just curious, I didn't mean to cause a fuss.
A devout ultra-orthodox:
From your response I somehow manage to find parallels between you and a football fan: "Mine is the first team"
"Mine has the longest texts"
you are not special You are a human being like several billion others. There is nothing special about you. And if you believe that you are somehow more valuable than other human beings you are simply ignorant.
Year:
The uniqueness of a people is in its unique culture and knowledge. And precisely the fact that Jews of all origins, Georgians, Poles, Yemenis, Spaniards, etc. study the same texts and preserve in detail an amazing and integrative collection of knowledge and precisely when they are in the minority. This combination indicates a unique preservation that you will not find in any other nation. There are exactly 613 mitzvot in the Torah of which 365 mitzvot do not do and 248 mitzvot do exactly.
Neither added nor subtracted from all of these throughout the generations. Each Mitzvah has lots of caveats and details and details details details thousands and thousands of different options and routes that were kept exactly. This is the Jewish identity and not the place of residence or the language.
From:
Luck controls everything that the mind plans even when the planning is perfect and tested. The intellect is limited to an approximate description of reality. As long as the sequence of events is longer and over a greater period of time. The number of choices and combinations of cases that depend on luck increases. The existence of the people of Israel, which in the years of history has gone through so many combinations of circumstances that instead of being entertained, they have preserved their uniqueness.
What are you dealing with and comparing to Hinduism are you so knowledgeable about the details of the Indian religion and its scriptures and traditions.
I hope you know only a little bit of Torah and Talmud. By the way, do you know the size of the entire Indian ritual in relation to the size of the entire Talmudic text accumulated over the generations. I guess this is a very high ratio.
In relation to the number of believers, don't forget that Jews have always been a relatively small nation. To this day we are a minority compared to all other nations and this is one of our problems.
Finally, when you talk about the Jews who went through the Holocaust with such disdain, you probably have no idea at all
What is the meaning of the holocaust? Your parents didn't go through a screening at Mengele's and didn't fight to keep the spark of life during the war years. Those who were released were divided into years.
Those who concluded that there is no supervision and no owner of the world. and completely withdrew from the religion of their father's house.
And those who are the opposite. They did not come with complaints to the Creator of the world.
The latter said to themselves: The Nazis wanted to destroy us for what!? Because of the Jewish identity. The Jewish identity originates from the Torah and the Talmud, they wanted to erase many oppressors in the past.
Those who thought this way told themselves that if they leave the religion they are actually collaborating with the oppressors and completing the mission of the Nazis to erase the memory of Judaism from the world. And therefore they actually remained religious.
But you can't blame the first ones who came with claims to the Creator of the world why the holocaust happened!!!
Secularism was actually born from this difficult question.
Haredi, the sentence Michael wrote in 126 about your confusion between the survival of the idea and the survival of the people is accurate.
If we talk history, for a moment, without teasing, without mixing beliefs and desires, then it is clear that in every country, without exception, today's population is the result of migration processes and population mixing. But, since the population of Egypt was never destroyed, it is clear that a significant part of today's Egyptians are descendants of the ancient Egyptians. And so in all countries. Precisely with regard to Jews, because of the enormous national disasters that few in other peoples resemble, the number of descendants of the ancient Israelites is quite small, and this is reflected in the fact that the Jews of Poland are similar to the Poles, and the Jews of Georgia are similar to the Georgians, and the Jews of Yemen are similar to the Yemenis. That is, the mixing of populations.
Hardok:
And regarding your quibble about the roots, I only say this:
He whose roots limit his thought is - mentally - a plant.
Hardok:
People who believed like you in luck believed their rabbis in Germany and stayed there until they were destroyed.
You admit that I'm smarter than you, but you tell me how lucky I am to have a mind.
This is nonsense. There is no such thing. Those who act out of belief in nonsense suffer - in the best case, and are destroyed in the worst case.
The same will happen to you if your plot to expel from the country serious people who work and serve in the army succeeds.
And regarding your response to Yair:
You yourself are confusing reality with imagination.
You are confusing the survival of an idea that is built in such a way that it sacrifices its believers to preserve itself and the survival of the people - if they don't believe in nonsense - who survive better.
You also ignore the historical fact that the religion of Hinduism survived much better than Judaism.
It has existed for many years and the number of its believers actually dwarfs the number of Jews.
And that makes them less good than you?
bitter enough:
I don't understand what you're saying, I hope you understand what you're saying.
On the other hand, I understand what I'm saying.
Is there another nation that has preserved its genetic uniqueness and has not mixed with other nations.
And that he kept his Torah and the Torah in the Bible and the traditions with such great precision in such a high degree of integration.
The Talmud on its 60 tractates demonstrates a precise integration of every article and every word of the Torah in the Prophets and the Scriptures and in the Talmud itself. Each article and meaning is tested against each of the others in all other scriptures.
And anyone who renews speaks anew in accordance with everything that has been said so far.
The nation of Israel is the combination of all these things and others that I did not mention.
This uniqueness has been strictly preserved throughout the generations.
The Indians today their origins and traditions are mixtures and mixtures of genetics and many religions.
orthodox:
And what about the Indians in America who settled there already 8-10 thousand years ago? Then the Christians came in the 15th century and started colonizing and then massacring the locals?
A very small part has survived to this day.
Are you really going to tell me in your next comment that the massacre of Indians is justified because they are pagans or something like that?
The mere fact that there are Indians at all (other people who believe in something different hundreds of miles away) doesn't raise any questions for you? In biblical times they didn't even know about the existence of America.
European culture "discovered" America only later.
Year:
You are confusing geography and history.
For example in ancient Greece and Rome two thousand years ago there were Greeks and Romans and they disappeared from the face of the earth.
And not because they dropped an atomic bomb on them.
The Italians and Greeks of today are not their descendants.
there is! Another such discussion...
My question is specifically for my father and Michael:
Let me call you atheists.. Don't you feel a bit of hypocrisy just by the fact that you are atheists and you live in a country based on religion? That the "condition of admission" to the country is conversion?
The Jewish religion (as well as most other religions) divides people and the fact is that no one really knows what is right.
Even in Judaism where there is no shortage of "experts" (rabbis) there are differences of opinion on many issues and everyone in Israel thinks they are right. The problem is that no one is right because no one really has a clue. Despite this, everyone "believes" in their own way as true and absolute, and most of the time they are not satisfied with the belief but also try to infect others with the belief: their children anyway but also the rest of the population.
To Hardosdok, you don't study biology, but history? Where did you come up with the sentence?
"All the other nations disappeared in wars and holocausts and only the people of Israel survived." Egypt 80 million square kilometers 320000 million inhabitants. Italy, 60 square kilometers, 120000 million inhabitants. Greece 10 square kilometers 80 million inhabitants, Iran, 250000 million square kilometers 60 million inhabitants. Great Britain, XNUMX square kilometers, XNUMX million inhabitants. Who did not survive, except the majority of the Jews, ignorant and people of the land.
Mr. Book of History and Stories:
Tell me you yourself really understand what you copied into your response.
A vague and unclear response such as this is a salad of word combinations. Invites mockery and slander to ultra-Orthodox Torah scholars.
I assume you are a fervent believer in the mystery that the words you copied here signify but think about how that looks
In the eyes of secular people who believe only in reason and rational thought.
It is better that you bring one thing that you yourself understand exactly and know how to explain it in a simple way than a jumble of
Words that no one, including yourself, understands either exactly or roughly.
From the books of the Torah they did not come to tell stories of history and stories of the creation of the world,
Listen, fascinating story, where do you buy this book? How much does it cost and who is the writer?
Does this author have several other adventure books or is this the only one?
Please your help
Acceptance and Darwin's theory of evolution
The National Academy of Sciences in the US claims that the theory of evolution should be taught in American schools. She relies on new data that supports this theory. Those who oppose this (creationists) are convinced that everything was created by the Creator.
"Around the table with Prof. Ebstein"
Acceptance opinion:
Neither these are right nor these are right. Not according to science and not according to religion - but according to Kabbalah. Everything that exists, including what we do not feel, exists in a complete form in an infinite world. From there it dangles through 5 steps of the lowest ("worlds") to the lowest world, our world.
A drop of seed - a nucleus - a quantum - a spark of higher energy broke out from the "world of action" above us, and gave birth to our entire world. Our world is developing like the upper worlds that preceded it, according to 5 degrees of being ("10 counts"). In other words, there is no development of "something out of nowhere" - but there is an appearance of what already exists in power, in potential, just as the entire future organism is already in the nucleus in the form of information.
Therefore the Kabbalists find that:
On the one hand, all development is determined by the Creator under the influence of the Supreme Light
On the other hand, information "nuclei" ("lists") are implemented
The upper light acts on the lists and causes them to develop.
It is interesting to see how the Ari describes in his book "Etz Chaim" the development of the ranks and the transitions between them:
"Between each exam, there is an average exam that includes both
Admittedly, in all these four private exams, there is one exam that includes them all, and it is an average between exam and exam, which includes both. An example from the Sages of Nature, because between the inanimate and the growing, is the coral, called coral. And between the plant and the animal, he is the lord of the field, mentioned in the tractate of hybrids, that he, like a kind of dog, grows in the ground, and his navel is rooted in the ground, and sucks from there, and when his navel is cut he dies. And between the animal and the desert, is the monkey."
From:
It's true, you're smarter than me, you make an "idol" out of your mind, that's your statue and mask. I believe in luck managed by providence. In the end result, luck has a much higher wisdom than intellect.
From:
The refuge of insults is your and Gabi Gazit's way of dealing with the psychological conflict in which you try to deny your roots. and behave bluntly and with verbal violence so that the kindergarten teacher will notice you.
This denial really invites sorrow and mercy for your and Gazit's heavy frustrations and how similar you are.
Hardok:
Learn to read!
Judaism survived and the Jews perished!
What is so hard to understand here?!
Ancestors Ancestors Ancestors These are the monkeys and I am really wiser than them.
I am also smarter than you.
To the anonymous anonymous user:
Surely the blocking percentage should be raised to even 15 percent (response 102)
Then the religious will merge into one party union and there will be 40 mandates.
Hardok:
The supervision is indeed hidden as it always was and as it always will be.
The reason for this is, of course, that it does not exist.
You are talking about the interpretations that anyone with eyes in his head will make for himself and my question to you is what right does a blind person have to talk about what he who has eyes in his head sees?
You bemoan the Neturi Karta but you do all you can to ensure that they and their ilk are ruled here.
It reminds me of the story about the man who swallowed his glass eye.
He comes to the doctor and after he examines him in every way he tells him:
"I have been a doctor for thirty years.
For thirty years I have been looking at buttocks.
This is the first time that Isvan looks at me."
Eyes in the head?! Eyes in the ass!!!
Year:
All other nations disappeared in wars and holocausts and only the people of Israel survived.
The prophets at the time of the Temple warned the people to follow the path of the Torah so that it would not happen to them like the surrounding nations.
They warned that they will not believe in foreign work and believe in it because that is what they will fall for. They were warned to be kind to an orphan and a widow and not to pervert justice and not to take bribes. The path that the people of Israel went through is the path of apprenticeship to refine it and prepare it for greater goals.
From:
As we know, since the destruction of the Temple, prophecy has been given to fools. You judge reality through a very narrow window at a very small point in time compared to all the years and long history. After all, you yourself are a descendant of generations of rabbis
And here you think that you can easily erase your roots just because you were a little involved in technology and the military and you felt how much power it gave you and this power tricked you into thinking that you are better and smarter than your ancestors and forefathers.
The words of the devout ultra-Orthodox prove that the ultra-Orthodox ignorance must be eradicated and this can only be done with the help of monism, the Zionist education is the one that needs to be controlled and not the education for the ultra-Orthodox's ignorance. Jabotinsky proved that monism and democracy (strong democracy and not our kind of democracy which harms the country and gives power to the anti-Zionist extremists) can exist together. A divided country like ours should adopt a strong democracy where one opinion controls the government like in the USA, this is Lieberman's proposal and any reasonable person can see that this is the best way to run the country. Can anyone imagine what would happen in the USA with a parliamentary government like ours? Any group of crazy people would form a party and America would break up into elements and would never reach a level even close to the power it is today. Anyone who wants can go to the website of Yisrael Beytenu and see the form of government Lieberman is proposing, a presidential regime with a high percentage of obstruction.
Mr. Blizovsky
It doesn't work that way today. We have not yet returned to the days when there was visible providence and visible miracles for the people of Israel.
The supervision is all covert. Those who were destined not to be harmed even if they entered the Gaza center of Hamas came out safely
Because that's how things will turn out. When there was the first temple the leadership was openly and so it will be and even more so when the third temple is built with the coming of the Messiah. Every Jew who prays and even the secular say for next year in Jerusalem. And everyone is looking forward to the return of the Shekinah to Jerusalem and Israel openly.
But as long as this did not happen yet with Israel in exile far from the leadership of the Shekinah openly.
Today's exile is expressed in the concealment of providence over the people of Israel.
And anyone with eyes in his head will interpret for himself what the meaning of the occurrence is.
Here you will see that the interpretation of the extreme Karta naturi is crooked and no less crooked is the interpretation of those who believe only in their power in the power of the will and technology and want to erase any connection to "nonsense" such as Talmud Torah.
You need to understand in depth and in the long term, not at a small point in time through a narrow window.
In the Torah it is written: "You shall not make a statue and a mask for yourself"
Many interpret it simply in the physical sense and this is a complete mistake.
The real meaning is not to make the ideas of the mind an anchor on which we hang and trust.
Not to reverse the math, or the science, or the technology, etc. All these are the things that see their result in practice. The foundation on which hang the promise of a good life. Because this is exactly what closes the mind and does not leave
New possibilities and things that are far beyond science and the human mind.
A devout ultra-orthodox:
Miracles must have happened to you.
We will find for you the donkey of Messiah who provides for you and protects you.
Throughout the years the Jewish religion survived at the expense of its believers - Judaism survived and the Jews died.
Do you know how many Jews there would be today if it weren't for that? Judaism is a mistake that the masses have already paid for with their lives.
You insist on continuing this mistake.
You are trying (and maybe you will really succeed) to expel from the country the only people who protect it and take care of its economy.
If this happens you will no longer have anyone to trust - if you do not work and do not serve in the army - you will die.
There is no limit to stupidity!
What a wonderful logic the Haredos have, there are those who manage the people of Israel through many holocausts that destroy huge parts of the people, while nations that do not have someone who manages them so well do not experience any holocaust.
No problem, go to the center of Nablus without protection and even without an escort by the Palestinian police.. Trust only in God. Then come back and tell me how it was.
Mr. Belzowski
The nation of Israel has existed for thousands of years and has gone through many holocausts. The destruction of the first and second houses were not holocausts?
In Bethel there were still prophets who warned and since then there are no prophets and there are still those who lead the people of Israel through every path
The hard-hitting people of Israel are still alive and well and still keep their Torah.
It seems to you that in 62 years of independence, and especially in the first years, we were able to exist here because of technology and intelligence. After all, all success in wars was due to miracles. And the miracles still happen today. Those who want to see see.
To remind you that great rabbis left Europe, including the Lubavitcher Rebbe (the penultimate one, and before this movement lost its mind) and left their flock to the mercy of that imaginary entity you expect to protect you today. We hope you don't learn from the experience.
Mr. Belzowski
First of all, I thought that in that case you would prefer to leave the country that has so many ultra-Orthodox.
And secondly and most importantly: do you think that they are winning because of missiles and computers and technology.
There is a master of the house for the world and he controls luck and all seemingly random events and runs the world without you feeling it. When luck and reason cross the road, the one who gets run over is the mind.
Mr. Michal Retschld
Regarding your response regarding "defensive democracy", it seems to you that in the event of a religious-Orthodox majority in the Knesset, the army should intervene. Don't forget that a large part of the commanders and soldiers in the Sdera HaHomet are religious.
OK, win, bring the state of Halacha, and what's next? Who will keep the enemies from taking the opportunity of the interim situation and take over the country so that you will win but we will all be left without a country?
What's more, you didn't understand me correctly, I'm against raising the percentage of blocking, because because of the percentage of blocking people are afraid to vote for real secular parties, and vote again and again for those corrupt politicians who sell the interest of the normal citizen for the interest of ignorant but united people.
Mr. Belzovsky, Mr. Machal
It is indeed an excellent idea to raise the blocking percentage to 10% and even 15%.
This will force all religious people to unite under one front as was the case in the 60s
As you know, many religious people vote for Likud and even Kadima.
Such a union will have about 40 mandates. She will form a government.
On the other hand, the left and snoring snoring parties from Tchamoedon will disappear from the map.
It is possible that in such a situation religious Jews around the world will receive an incentive to immigrate.
You and Gabi Gazit and Anat Kam and Haaretz journalists and all your good friends will be encouraged to buy a one-way ticket to a democratic country where there will be no ultra-Orthodox. And came to Zion a redeemer.
J:
I suggest you learn a little about the term "defensive democracy".
The army is not appointed to preserve secularism but to preserve the constitution.
There are situations where no other solution is possible.
If someone fights against people who do not submit themselves to the laws of democracy, then it is quite clear that if he makes sure to limit himself to the laws of democracy - democracy has no chance.
We are also all against murder and yet all of us (or at least the sane among us) justify killing in the case of self-defense.
The fact is that Turkey was normal for years and lost its sanity just because of this nonsense.
A similar thing happened in Algeria, only that there the army intervened.
Michael, basically what you are saying is that democracy, equal rights and non-interference of the government in the life of the individual, were in your eyes only a way out in Europe to break free from the rule of the church. Once that has happened and the atheistic world has taken over, you suddenly revert to the ways of the church. You want to determine what each child will learn, and want to limit democracy so that it protects the world your values continue to rule. But what you are actually saying is that your world of values does not include democracy, does not include true pluralism and does not allow another (if he convinces the majority) to lead the cultural hegemony. Rather, it is only and only a way to control and determine the universal world of values.
Such a government is bound to lose. There is a supreme value to democracy and pluralism. Whoever violates it ends up losing. The main reason why the atheistic world won was because of the openness and lack of coercion. The simulation that by various means you will be able to prevent groups other than your own from winning is the mistake that all religious groups of all kinds have made throughout the ages. In the end they lost.
It is true that there are problems in letting groups that deny democracy rule. But we need to find more useful ways than the artificial rule of the minority. And don't give up on democracy yourself.
And I return here to the first discussion we had regarding working with ultra-Orthodox. No amount of war and coercion will succeed in changing social norms of a group different from your own. On the contrary, it only causes radicalization.
Imagine in your mind how you would behave if the majority and the government in the country were ultra-Orthodox. And they would force you to teach Gemara at your children's autonomous school. Would they have succeeded? Maybe outwardly. Inwardly, you would go to extremes and explain to your children at every opportunity how wrong these studies are and you only maintain them out of the necessity of reality imposed on you.
I thought how to illustrate to you the difference between our views on how to deal with the ultra-Orthodox not going to work.
Therefore, on the other hand, let's imagine for a moment Avrach Mekrit Safar (Modi'in Ilit) who is going to work in high-tech. At first he comes home with a small slip. Little by little with experience he is already coming home with a shiny Mazda 3.
Think about how his neighbor who stays in the kollel feels. At first he is jealous and therefore he looks at his friend with a crooked eye. He and all his surroundings. But then another neighbor dares and goes to work in high-tech and he's already coming back with a Mazda 5. And another neighbor and another neighbor. And all of a sudden 4-5 guys are walking around quietly and peacefully with their Mazdas. I (who know well the world in which I live), do not see a situation where the majority will remain in the Kollelim in this situation. The problem is that no one wants to be one of the first, but as soon as it starts to drip, I hope that there will be enough evars left to sustain the kollels, but in my opinion the majority have gone to work.
This is the surest way to get a stable output with continuity and without precipitation.
That's why I would focus the budgets I have on encouraging entry to work and not on core studies.
The story in Turkey is more complex.
Following the revolution, Ata Turk appointed the army to protect the constitution.
He did this because he knew about the Muslim majority in the country and this makes sense to anyone who knows what democracy is and understands that without it defending itself against groups that use it to overthrow it (just as happened in Nazi Germany) - it may not survive - and in a Muslim country like Turkey - it is guaranteed that it will not survive .
Postmodern Europe pressured Turkey to abolish the military's powers in the matter so that the country would be "more democratic".
This is the result!
If the trend continues and without a new revolution, Turkey will become another fundamentalist country.
I don't remember exactly what the context was, but when it happened there was some other matter in which Europe claimed that it does not interfere in the internal policies of countries.
I wrote then (a long time ago) to my friend that this claim is false and it is more correct to say that she does intervene - but only when the intervention is harmful. I gave Turkey as an example. This was long before Islam and its hostility to Israel began to manifest itself, and I said this because the result was predictable.
This method reflects the will of the Turkish people in the best possible way, they wanted a religious and extreme government and this is what they got. The one who chose religious people there and he doesn't like it is probably one of those who choose a party without reading its platform.
In Turkey they also raised it to 10% to block the religious and now in fact when the religious dominate the others there is not even a representative in the parliament because of this distortion.
Our only problem is pluralism! One education method should be established and the plurality of opinions should be eliminated. How do we do it? First of all, we will raise the percentage of obstruction in the elections to 10% and establish a US-style presidential regime, that way we will send the extortionists home and do what is best for the country.
Yaron:
You ignore a lot of things and I don't understand why.
For example - you ignore the fact that in Israel - the natural increase is particularly large among the populations mentioned in the Taub report - that is - the pious populations.
You also ignore the fact that as of today - at least one of these populations does not give education a foothold in its training institutions.
Therefore it has to do with religion.
The truth is that the main problem lies in the non-separation of religion from the state - a phenomenon that gives legal protection to the alienation and arrogance of the parasites (in the US there is a religious majority, but the constitution that separates religion from the state preserves the state's sanity).
If we take the table of GDP per capita of all the countries of the world and compare it to the natural population of all the countries in the world, we will find an opposite - very large - the rule is - all the countries with a high natural population are third world countries - regardless of the geographical location, religion, culture, climate etc
The condition of a high natural population is enough to define the country as backward
Therefore, reducing the birth rate - mainly through education - is necessary, otherwise our fate is sealed
If new immigrants who ran an emergency room in Russia knew how to sweep streets until they managed here... there is no reason why an ultra-Orthodox who didn't go to school couldn't do the same.
Same goes for Arabs and any free food you can think of
There is a shiva for those engaged in low-level professions
So please don't confuse the mind...those who want to work will always find work
Those who want not to work will always find a reason why not
In any case.. for all the parasites it's time for their funding to be stopped... there is unemployment benefits... get it with eligibility and after you get it go work with what you have..
By the way, Michal:
The reason why I answered you just now is that I - unlike you - participated in a memorial service for the victims of the Israeli systems.
You, at the time, were browsing the internet.
Michal:
you are rambling
Really cool.
Nothing you say is true.
From Rothschild:
According to your opinion, the people of Israel and the Torah are unnecessary and should be deleted correctly.
After all, everything starts with you from your private ego, right, there have been people like you.
Pharaoh thought he was a god. There were many who thought they could wipe out the nation of Israel and its Torah.
The Greeks the Romans the German Crusaders and nowadays there is Ahmadinejad.
You think that the people of Israel are winning just because they have science, technology and smart missiles.
You really believe that only because you are smarter and stronger you win.
ridiculous!!!
Michal:
And here's something about The roots you refuse to break away from.
He whose roots limit his judgment is mentally….. a plant!
Michal:
Bacteria like you have also existed throughout history.
From Rothschild:
Throughout history there have always been converts to anger like you. And disappeared like dust without leaving an impression.
You said what you said, you talked about the roots from which you grew beauty, enjoy yourself.
Michal:
Man evolved from the monkey.
There are still monkeys.
Is this a reason to act like a monkey?
After all - the chimpanzee culture is about 6 million years old and the human culture is only tens of thousands old!
If the age of culture is what determines, then the more we look at species more backward than the past, the better!
So why stop at the backwardness of Judaism and not embrace the backwardness of the chimpanzees or the bacteria?
And regarding your response to Dan Shamir: True! The bacteria too!
Dan Shamir:
But the Torah and the Jewish people will continue to exist forever.
I don't even understand what all the fuss is about.
yes military service no military service
yes core plan or no core plan,
When I look at the polls I see only one thing, the State of Israel may continue to exist or may collapse but an atheist like me will probably not be able to live in it in about twenty years.
Avi Blizovsky:
Dear secularists, in theory you are right. But think how long the logic in your theory exists?
Less than the time when the State of Israel was established, no!
On the other hand, how long has Israel existed and studied Torah?!
Thousands of years no!
Draw your own conclusion that claims of this type weigh less than a speck of dust in history.
One moment and they disappeared and blossomed.
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1163553.html
The attacks of the ultra-Orthodox known as "the Jew" and the nicknames of the website editor "Nazi" is another sign of ultra-Orthodox society where they do not hesitate to call police officers and secular people who travel on Shabbat "Nazis".
I'm a high-tech person and my company also employs ultra-Orthodox women as software testers and developers - he will say that some of them are very talented despite the large gap in understanding English and the cultural gaps between them and the secular workers.
It should be noted that their work in high-tech opened their eyes to a new and wonderful world and soon they too began to demand and receive handsome salaries, and to be interested in world-class issues.
So far so good. The problem is that ultra-Orthodox women in high-tech are few in comparison to the general ultra-Orthodox public.
Without a significant change in ultra-Orthodox education - the introduction of natural science subjects into the curriculum, and submission to graduation,
This public will be an impossible burden on the state before long.
Jotham:
I did study Judaism and my words about its "morality" and the "factuality" of its "historical" and "scientific" claims are very well founded.
If you upset me I will give you a lot of examples so I suggest you be careful because if I do - everyone will see what a terrible thing you believe.
As for the age of the Eastern religions and the fact that Judaism survived at the expense of its believers - these are self-evident facts that you don't need to study Judaism to know.
And you are the one who studied Judaism, yes, no one blames you, no matter how he tries to justify his way....
Jotham:
Of course you are talking nonsense.
What has survived for so many years is Judaism and not the Jews.
I have already explained more than once that there are ideas (memes) that are built to preserve themselves and not those who believe in them. Such is Judaism and it survived at the expense of its believers.
By the way, the age of anti-Semitism is about the same age and the religions of the East are much older and did not claim so many victims either.
This of course adds to the fact that those who study Judaism see that it is a collection of false beliefs and immoral commandments.
Regarding the antibiotics and the bacteria, yes, apparently this is also part of the evolution of the bacteria. They encourage us to be smarter in order to stop them, but on the other hand, we encourage them to be more resistant, simply wonderful. One waits for the other. "Jealousy of writers breeds wisdom". : "What has been will be and what will be done will be done and there is nothing new under the sun!! There is something that will say, look, this is new, it was already for the people who were before us... and regarding my irresponsibility regarding my descendants, this is how most of my knowledge technology and modernization maybe help people to feel smarter and proud of themselves, there is some kind of feeling of greatness over the previous generations and other than that there is nothing that does help For those who come after us, maybe they will be able to live longer, but the question is how will they live?? And if you read, he brought you a shopping list with everything that is happening today.. (air pollution, eligibility for matriculation, crime, early relationships, a technological world where you hardly get up from the pocket of the computer, just a desire for laziness and this is what some of the futurists say) The test of the result is the one that determines.. with Israel He lived like this for 3321 years, on his back empires collapsed.. and they survived, so maybe a little respect for the Jewish people and without talking about the responsibility of the Holy One, blessed be He, he is responsible enough, don't you think..
I understand that Nathan is the same Jew from yesterday who was blocked because he compared the site's operators to Nazis at least five times, so I deleted his comments.
Yotam,
What about a minimal amount of responsibility for your descendants and the generation that will come after you?
Don't you have an obligation to leave them a world they can live in?
Generation after generation comes and humans develop antibiotics and the bacteria develop resistance.
Let's sum it up in one sentence "A generation goes and a generation comes and the land stands forever" King Solomon, peace be upon him, said this, and what that means dear friends, no matter what you or I will do for the country, or for the development of the modern technological world, you and I will not be here to be proud In our impressive results... and the sentence of King Solomon, peace be upon him in a "modern" version, "everyone meets at a traffic light" (in the grave for those who don't understand) so it won't change anything what you do as a true and trusting Jew in the name of developing Torah all the time without compromises and integration into society and the like. We want to pass this world In peace and toil in the Torah and not to reach retirement age and switch channels on the remote control and wait for some grandchild to come out of pity to say hello to grandfather... I am an ultra-Orthodox Jew (and if you ask what I am doing here on the site, then there is also an answer to that, "Seva tzaddik will fall and rise")
And a small note to Nathan: social sciences (sociology in Israel), are also science. Maybe not an exact science like math and astronomy, but still, science.
Avi,
Indeed, I am in the minority. The reason for this is that, although there were many of my generation whose exposure to professional and general education was a blessing to them, it served as a springboard for them to dig in and find a livelihood without harming their reverence for God and keeping the Torah and mitzvot, there were also those who, in the parlance of our sector, "went off the path." For the purpose of the matter, it does not matter how widespread the phenomenon was, of the exodus of young people from the ultra-Orthodox community to secularism, among them some from the privileged families of important rabbis and rebbes. The phenomenon existed.
How did ultra-orthodox Judaism deal with the phenomenon? In absolute panic and hysteria. In a completely hysterical defensive process, the ultra-orthodox sector closed itself behind thick and dense defensive walls. This is the reason for the deep, stubborn and paranoid opposition of the rabbis of the sector to any attempt to strengthen sand studies in our educational institutions ("the core program"). This is the reason why various attempts to integrate into the army young people who "dropped out" of the yeshivas and did not find their place in the study of the Torah, completely failed. This is why the integration of ultra-Orthodox men into the labor market is in a continuous downward trend.
In this way, in my opinion and unfortunately, the leaders of ultra-Orthodox Judaism threw the baby out with the bath water, and in a few years we will all be facing a broken trough. I fear this will happen sooner than we all estimate.
Haredim of all kinds.
You constantly talk about the rights of the minority in democracy, but you have distorted views about the essence of the fundamental rules of democracy. Apparently
that the lack of citizenship studies makes you think that the state owes you something.
First, the separation of religion from the state is a fundamental requirement. A country where religion has a ruling status cannot be called democratic and indeed the State of Israel, despite the statements of its leader, that it is the only democracy in the Middle East, is not a democratic country.
I usually call it, "pseudo-democracy semi-theocracy"
Second, the minority in a democracy does have the right to protection against the rapacity of the majority, but there is no democratic obligation to finance the whims of the ultra-Orthodox public in the methods of educating its children. The state does not need to finance ultra-orthodox education, any more than it needs to finance the Christian ministries or the Hari Krishna institutions. These are also the ones who teach vain beliefs, which are none of the state's business.
Moreover, the ultra-orthodox do not educate for democracy at all! They aspire to reach a full rabbinic theocracy and eradicate the democratic regime.
In the early years of the state, the ultra-orthodox still had little integrity, and they refused to accept funds from the Zionist state they hated. But today they overcame their shame and joined the state's elites, with the intention that the state's money would help them grow stronger and multiply to the point that they would succeed in taking over the secular state. Many of them, when speaking honestly, also state this publicly and even tease the secularists that they will not be able to stop this process.
And our country, what is it doing? Funds her haters!
After all, it is the duty of a democracy to defend itself against those who seek to harm its very democratic essence. Real democracy forbids participation in the elections to the House of Representatives for political parties that do not support democracy!
We are well aware of the historical examples in which different types of dictatorships took over their countries in "democratic" ways. We don't need much imagination to know what our country will look like if the ultra-Orthodox's hopes come true.
My claims are mainly towards our governments who are robbing our future under false pretenses.
Yet there is still hope. As soon as the state stops, or is no longer able to finance the ultra-Orthodox society, there will be a rapid collapse of this parasitic society, and one hour before.
Yes, I know, I may absorb a shower of blasphemy such as anti-Semitic, hater of his people, and others that you mentioned for our honor, but it's worth understanding,
Secular Zionist Judaism, the true modern Judaism, and I am proud to belong to it with all its history. The ultra-orthodox insist on separating themselves from anyone who does not perceive their Judaism according to their approach. Judaism has already passed over many divergent groups that did not agree to move forward with the mainstream of Judaism. Only history will prove who will survive!
In the meantime, the state should cultivate its supporters and not its haters.
It is recommended to open the Hidan2 website on the subject of "evolutions and religion", and conduct all these unpleasant discussions (for fans of pure science) there.
I have no explanation, but the position of the fire extinguisher is clear on the issues of evolution and religion, it is not possible to write about it objectively
And of course, I also agree with my father's words to a real Jew.
A real Jew and Y are proof that there is someone to talk to.
Thank you, J.
The truth is that I know that there are great ultra-Orthodox people (from visiting one of them we cannot know that the majority of the ultra-Orthodox public consists of great people, but I tend to accept your opinion on the matter, if only because I think that most people - as people - are great. My problem is with different doctrines and with groups acting as a group subject to the same doctrines).
I also know that I presented things in a slightly extreme way, but in my opinion such a presentation is necessary. You have to decide where you are going and then you have to optimize the steps leading there.
In the end, and despite the anger I expressed at certain points, the discussion with you was very pleasant for me.
Avi and Michael, it seems to me that we have exhausted the discussion. Thank you for the responses, I hope I have contributed to you as much as you have contributed to me, even if only a little. I still stand by my invitation to the two of you to sit down so that you can observe the ultra-Orthodox way of life up close. You will also get to know and know that the ultra-orthodox public consists mostly of wonderful, happy and pragmatic people. Yes, including my brothers.
Thank you, a real Jew.
I couldn't understand what that person was angry about, unfortunately there are those in the ultra-Orthodox community for whom every criticism immediately raises and falls sirens of anti-Semitism. I wish everyone was like you. Unfortunately, I know that you are in the minority, and it seems that you know it too. The least I can do is publish the findings so that someone will wake up. I do not hide the fact that I do not believe and even an atheist, but there is no difference between a person's right to believe and practice his faith and the right to turn ignorance into an ideology. As a user of public transportation, I saw ultra-Orthodox drivers in Dan, who even shouted "Kol Barama" loudly and no one, including me, asked them to tone it down. I am convinced that if they found, everyone can find a job according to their skills and make a decent living.
Only those who do not know the harsh reality of the ultra-orthodox public since the cuts can say that Netanyahu has done too little. The cuts were sharp and caused very serious problems in the ultra-orthodox public. In my opinion, one of the reasons for the explosion of repeated demonstrations in the past year is that the majority of the ultra-Orthodox public does not understand what they are protesting about (the starving mother, for example), in my opinion, one of the reasons for this is the explosion of the difficult economic situation. Even before the cuts, there was poverty in the ultra-orthodox public, but they learned to manage in one way or another. The cuts made in one Yoha shook many families without any response.
Apparently Netanyahu had no choice because really the allowances had already jumped to frightening proportions and made unemployment profitable. But to say he did too little is a bit (to put it mildly) wrong.
Indeed, Netanyahu is a different kind of politician who is not only determined to survive but also carries out revolutions in all fields. And look how he made anti-populist moves while being finance minister even though he knew he would pay the price. Despite the label they are trying to put on him.
Again, politicians have to deal with reality unlike us who can write what we want without any responsibility...
I don't know the idiot who posts anti-Semitic comments here (what to do, there is no other definition for his comments) under the nickname "Jew" (and that's a good thing; if I knew him, I wouldn't resist the temptation to teach him how ultra-Orthodox Judaism preaches to behave like Moshumedim).
I have no idea what mitzvot he fulfills, but as far as I am concerned, he is annihilated, since he does not fulfill one of the main commandments in the Torah: "Love your neighbor as yourself", and in the words of the Sages: "O judge the whole person to be righteous". According to Jewish law, a person who refuses in principle to observe one of the 613 mitzvot, and does so willfully and out of disgust after receiving an ultra-Orthodox education, is annihilated.
As an ultra-Orthodox myself, who studied in the ultra-Orthodox education system, read, studied and served as a rabbi for about twenty years, I can state that professional education in the ultra-Orthodox education system has deteriorated significantly in recent decades (which is consistent with the findings in the report).
When I studied in the Torah Talmud, the quality of the sand studies in them was much higher than what is customary today in these institutions. I grew up in them and I can testify to that. Also, a very high percentage of the ultra-orthodox parents, members of the old settlement, sent their children (mainly the boys) to educational institutions that were not distinctly ultra-orthed, and even (mercifully) to high school yeshivos. This phenomenon has disappeared in recent decades.
Also, until Menachem Begin's rise to power in the seventies of the last century, the current blanket exemption for yeshiva students from military service did not exist. As part of their military service, many members of the ultra-Orthodox public were exposed to the secular world, its shortcomings and advantages, and many of them adopted Rabbi Meir's approach, which "Rimon found; The inside he ate, the shell he threw away", and integrated into universities, professional institutes and the labor market. This phenomenon does not exist today.
The Sages said: "Anyone who does not teach their son an art, is as if they were teaching artists." And even though the Sages said: "I accept every art in the world and I teach my children nothing but Torah", our Sages taught that this is the way of the Rashbi, which "many have done like it and it did not come up in their hands", and is only suitable for individuals A virtue, while the path paved for many is the path of Rabbi Ishmael, "the one who led them according to the custom of the earth."
If the current trends, reflected in the report, continue, in a generation or two, we will not have an army (because even those secularists who are currently enlisting, will decide to stop being the suckers of the ultra-orthodox), we will not have a job market, and we will not have a state.
J:
Netanyahu did too little.
The problem is that all the parties fold in front of them to one degree or another and do not fully implement the only solution that can work.
I think that problems in the future can be solved by solving them already in the present. It's just a question of determination but unfortunately our politicians are only determined to survive (politically) the moment.
Michael I agree with you. It's just that Netanyahu already did this about five years ago and it is indeed giving its signals, but it's not enough. You are right about the army, but unfortunately in my opinion you are only right and not wise in the matter. Better to give up now to solve the problems in the future. And especially that you pay twice both for not serving in the army and for not participating in the labor market.
There is a term in Halacha that says it is better to desecrate one Shabbat for him to keep many Shabbats...
Eran, you don't need more pragmatic Haredim, but the Haredim need more pragmatism. Those who pay the price of the past decades are mainly the ultra-Orthodox and less the secular. Pragmatism, if you notice, is not in faith. The pragmatism that I think is also lacking in the secular public is in understanding reality as it is and not according to how we would like to see it.
Therefore, even in the secular public, more openness and pragmatism to different opinions was needed. And according to what is depicted time and again here on the site that is the most popular site in Israel for science, and was expected to be a site completely open to different opinions, lack of openness and lack of pragmatism exists in all populations. It is probably human nature that has been ingrained in us since the beginning.
The question of what is more is irrelevant in my opinion. Just as the majority of the secular public forms opinions based on newspaper headlines, the majority of the ultra-orthodox public also forms opinions in a superficial way. (To be honest, I believe that my opinions are also superficially biased in one way or another because this is how we act and this is how we think - otherwise the marketing and advertising agencies would not have a revival).
There was once an interesting article in the Haaretz supplement (if I'm not mistaken it was a column by the late Aryeh Caspi) after one of the budgets that Litzman interfered with and there was an uproar in the media. The claim was that there was simply a campaign in the media against the ultra-Orthodox without any real content behind the things. True, there are problems in that the ultra-Orthodox do not work and in any case their income is much smaller than their weight in the population. But regarding the claim that they receive more than their weight in the population, the writer proved step by step how deep-rooted a mistake this is, and how many ultra-Orthodox receive less than their weight.
For example, he gave a headline that appeared in the news "Less for education, more for the ultra-Orthodox". In the same budget, horizontal cuts were made in all offices. The only ministry whose budget was not cut was the Ministry of Education. And the writer could not understand how the writers of the news arrived at the false headline (as he said).
He explained how the treasury officials play false games with the ultra-Orthodox members of the Knesset every year in order to create a big commotion around them.
Do a quick check among your secular friends and ask everyone who voted for change because of the ultra-Orthodox, how much does an ultra-orthodox in kollel receive from the state. Although it doesn't matter that much, the gap between reality and popular opinion is simply amazing. And points out how superficial and in-depth our thinking is on issues unrelated to our work.
The question is not what exists today, but how to change the situation in the future. And this is the division between us and Michael and my father. I believe that only with long-term tools in partnership and in a soft way will deep and beneficial changes be possible. Contrary to what is claimed here in the discussion that the Zbeng and Gamaran method is better.
J:
You yourself voted for the only thing that has worked so far - cutting child benefits.
A person who knows that if he doesn't work he won't have anything to eat will immediately stop looking down on work.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't help those who have already decided to go to work, but going to work can only become a trend when it pays off.
When does something pay off?
This is something that is difficult to assess in the long term, so most people think about the immediate term.
A person always considers his activity against the alternative and the way to guide him to the chosen alternative should make this alternative pay off already in the short term.
When will I go to study and work? If it doesn't pay for me to be idle (which is an appropriate expression - it pays to be idle when you are paid for being idle).
I am not against providing assistance in learning a profession, but first of all the motivation needs to be created and this will only be created by the feeling of necessity.
By the way - you mention the matter of the army as a barrier to work, but even from the army (or at least national service) they must not be allowed to evade. After all, they are not going to work so that they will not be taken to the army, God forbid. Where does this sound like? Why don't the most extreme war mongers ever taste the taste of war for themselves?
And what about national service?
This is a major evasion and they need to understand this once and for all.
This understanding will not come from continuing to support evasion.
to me. We need more people like you to restore the ultra-orthodox status.
The interesting question is whether there are more than Sha'im (from the word Moshe) or more than you, and unfortunately I have no ability to know the answer.
A good example is the site Haderi Haredim - where this question is much more interesting, who are the site's readers? Who are the responders? Usually the secular view wins in the comments there (in talkbacks), but this indicates nothing but the talkbackists. It would be interesting to explore the issue in sensitive articles with hundreds of responses from different people, it would be appropriate to build a profile of the ultra-orthodox situation for change (assuming it can be proven that the absolute majority of the writers are at least geographically ultra-Orthodox and representative).
Moshe:
The fact that someone once said something without justification does not make the statement inappropriate when it is justified.
In this case - the ultra-Orthodox are running the state and note that sane ultra-Orthodox recognize this.
You are not worth serious consideration because you are simply a liar.
Examples of ultra-Orthodox violence and rudeness are provided to us every morning - and not just by some madman in the street corner, but by the leaders of the community.
Chastity guards exist only in this community and those who know the laws by which it is tamed are not at all surprised by this.
to me. We need more people like you to restore the ultra-orthodox status.
The interesting question is whether there are more mash'im (from the word mishna) or more you, and unfortunately I have no ability to know the answer.
A good example is the site Haderi Haredim - where this question is much more interesting, who are the site's readers? Who are the responders? Usually the secular view wins in the comments there (in talkbacks), but this indicates nothing but the talkbackists. It would be interesting to explore the issue in sensitive articles with hundreds of responses from different people, it would be appropriate to build a profile of the ultra-orthodox situation for change (assuming it can be proven that the absolute majority of the writers are at least geographically ultra-Orthodox and representative).
From:
You have not read or heard the anti-Semitic expression that Jews milk the blood and the money.
You are rude ignorant.
I personally saw and heard the examples I gave about the children.
Secular education teaches to trample and teaches violence and rudeness.
Because all the money poured in the last twenty years went to one thing. In combination with the army's ban that an ultra-Orthodox student cannot work but only study in Kollel, and in combination with child allowances and support for Kollel students, and in combination with the corresponding increase in ideology, that work is a despicable thing, these three factors led to more isolation and less openness.
The proposal Adam and I are talking about is something else entirely.
It is true that these are also budgets, but budgets with a clear goal of bringing the ultra-Orthodox into the workforce. Which means less allowances in the end and more income for the state in the even near future.
It is true that stopping the allowances was a smart and just move by Netanyahu. It has even proven itself in a big way in recent years and a great many of the ultra-orthodox public go to work.
But, still because of the two barriers, of the army, and the ideology that exists mainly in the Lithuanian world, and yes, also because of the lack of vocational studies in yeshivot, it is still very difficult for an avrach who wants to go to work to do so. And so the big masses have not yet arrived.
In the proposal we offer: 1. To invest in professional studies and the orientation of ultra-Orthodox to work in the professions suitable for them, in cooperation with large companies in the economy. 2. Change the Tal Law little by little and lower the age at which one can go to work so that the same calf will start his journey in the professional world as early as possible.
In the proposal that we are proposing, according to what I believe, after the cuts that have taken place and the growing pressure within the public (look at the scale of the protests that have taken place in the past year over nothing... and you will understand the growing pressure the ultra-Orthodox public is under), I believe that once the two barriers, the army + studies, are taken care of, there will be a flow A huge number of young men who went to work.
Why do we believe that this will change anything and why do we believe that it is different from the allowances that have existed up until now?
Because in our proposal it is about making the public less closed in on itself. And so the cycle will be broken. Little by little, when people go to work and see that the secular public does not bite, and work does not plunge people into abysses, little by little the way of thinking will begin to change. Together with the openness that exists on the Internet that the ultra-Orthodox public, however strong it may be, will not be able to face, there is a possibility and I believe it is quite certain that within a decade you will see more and more ultra-Orthodox serving and more and more ultra-Orthodox willing to introduce core studies even to yeshiva.
J:
Let's not get carried away.
The money comes from the pockets of those who work.
The money goes into the pockets of those who do not work.
The ultra-orthodox have made the island of work an ideology, therefore the money only flows in one direction and this direction is not acceptable to me.
The flow of money is increasing because these women who have nothing to do - have more children and throw them on top of me too.
You can make statements until tomorrow and you won't be the first to make statements, but the reports that are the subject of the article speak for themselves.
In my opinion, there is no doubt that the only way to bring the country back to sanity is to eradicate this corruption all at once.
All this playing around with dreams in aspemia only led us to the place where we are today and so that we all understand what kind of place this is - I will call it by its name - on my behalf.
You know the public you live in and you know it will never give up.
So what leads you to conclude that he will suddenly give up only when more money is showered on him? After all, this is what we have been doing all these years! They are given money for education and they are establishing training institutes for parasites. They will be given more, and from this investment that is for its own sake, they will do what is not for its own sake.
They don't believe in natural selection so they will have no reason to complain about being put in front of it.
In a reality where you don't get money except from work and you don't get funding except for work-supporting studies, they will be forced to understand that only the fit survive and they will make sure to fit in.
Will not give up? We will see them!
Moshe:
Sometimes you can just relax and enjoy the stupidity of comments that are written without any connection to reality and out of pure egocentrism and unrestrained hatred.
Moshe - Don't exaggerate as an ultra-Orthodox, I can tell you with certainty that an ultra-Orthodox child cannot tell you the area of each vessel in the Mishkan. In general, stop with the stupid comparisons to anti-Semitism, they lead nowhere and only put you in a very, very dishonorable place - and I don't understand why everyone bothers to answer you and a Jew in this matter. It's just not worth it.
Michael - I apologize if you felt disrespected by my words. There was no intention.
But, don't underestimate the bucking bull. From experience I can tell you that the orthodox way of thinking of understanding a thing from a thing is very, very suitable for the field of programming. And in many cases it is noticeable. Yes, there is a drawback to this way of studying that makes it difficult to study step by step without skipping details. But this difference is a complex issue that could open a whole cluster on the matter and the ACMAL.
And why do you call this money my money? Even considering the fact that a lot of the ultra-orthodox public does not work, it is still not about your private money, it is about the state's money to which Arabs, Jews, religious secularists and ultra-Orthodox people pay taxes. It is the duty of the state to finance education for the general public and not only in the method advocated by the majority. And again, like Adam, I also advocate for the core studies, for educated and creative Haredim who contribute to the economy - the difference between us is whether to go for the whole pot right away or give up and be more practical. It is a fact that until today it has not succeeded, so there must be something in our words. And, according to what I understand, Adam is also ultra-Orthodox, so maybe you can trust us a little, that we know the public in which we live and we have something to rely on when we tell you that it simply won't work.
From:
Your show that the ultra-Orthodox are milking your blood and money is the days of anti-Semitism, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the blood plots of Judaism and the rabbis milking the blood for matzo baking.
Are you even Jewish?
Have you ever seen the difference between a 7-8 year old orthodox and secular child.
Such an ultra-Orthodox child is able to learn an entire chapter of Mishniyot in about 15 minutes. Let's see what a secular child of this age is capable of.
Such an ultra-Orthodox child studies the parshas of the Mishkan, Teruma Titzvah, etc. and knows how to tell you the measurements of all the different parts of the Mishkan. And not only that, he can tell you the area of each vessel in the tabernacle. In the room he studies they still haven't taught him a letter to calculate areas Essel is enough to explain it to him just once. And he does it without a calculator and without paper and pencil. Have you ever seen such a child who was taught to read the Torah and Tanach with all the flavors. And he knows how to read fluently wherever you open. can read you a regular Megillah without being taught while applying rules to connect the taste between the style of the Bible and the Torah. Let's see what secular children of this age know. Quote the names of the winners in Kochav Nold or Big Brother or the names of football players. And a bull that will put in your little pocket all the mathematical knowledge you brag about.
A person:
There is not a single economist or scientist who supports the nonsense you proposed - as if funding studies of a bull that hit a cow would benefit science or the economy in any way.
All the rest of your words are a demonstration of egoism and ultra-Orthodox power.
No one is asking you to stop fooling around - it's your full right. All that is required of you is to stop doing this at the expense of money and money.
Even in the United States of America they do not understand like you do.
With your intelligence you will arrive at fascism under the auspices of the rule of law or human rights.
There is a collective that is not interested in your favors, and is also ready to fight for the bird of its soul, which is education.
They don't want their sons to be busy with math or algebra, etc., they want their children to learn Torah.
They see academic study as a function for financial income and nothing else.
Didn't Ben-Gurion finally give up on girls' national service? After all, we all know that they wanted to sterilize the religious cell by doing so - and they failed of their own accord.
Because the ultra-Orthodox don't want a core! And if the ultra-Orthodox don't want a core, then there won't be a core! point. It has nothing to do with one school principal or another, arrest all the school principals, you will have to build extermination camps or ghettos and arrest the entire ultra-Orthodox public.
-At the moment- a heart is taboo in the ultra-orthodox public .. period!
Instead of stupid hand wringing, and vain chatter about the rule of law... Be realistic, and this is also the role of politicians, give education to 20-30 year olds. This will only benefit the ultra-Orthodox society and the country, and in the future it will probably open a door to certain core studies.
It's a waste of time to fight the ultra-orthodox public, they don't take joints, they don't smoke weed, and they don't let their children be gay, I don't mean to belittle the secular public, I'm just trying to make it clear that you don't understand the ultra-Orthodox public at all, you can't force anything on them with the things they in their souls. Like trying to force them into the Shabbat space.. Try
You might think I'm a little belligerent in my response, but not at all!! I actually want core studies! I want educated Haredim! I want ultra-Orthodox creators!
But in nitpicking at you, I know the ultra-Orthodox public, and know that they will not allow "coercion of the core" no matter what.
And precisely if you want to force them, they will become suspicious and hostile to the academic establishment, education, etc.
Investing in marriage after marriage and above is completely worthwhile, and it is possible that in the future this will change the perception of academia and education.
J:
It is not a matter of the importance of the profession in someone's eyes.
It is mainly a matter of training a person who can make a living and contribute to society.
If it is not important for him to do these things - from my side he will not learn and die of hunger.
The allowances, violence and privileges are things that really exist and the leaders of the ultra-orthodox community are fighting for them as "rights". For my part, you can call it slogans or packages of cheese - I don't care - the main thing is that they cancel it.
Again, I do not demand that anything be applied to them in all that is involved in what they do, but I have every right to dictate to them the conditions under which they will receive my money. What is unclear here? Is it coercion? Who here uses demagogic and false slogans?!
I'm tired of this discussion because once again the same ugly side of the Haredim's disdain for truth, morals and others is revealed.
Michael.
After we have removed the margins of the discussion, we can focus on the question or proposal that I raised, which is not to direct resources (at the moment) to the core studies but to professional studies in the later years.
Why if a certain group is not interested in educating and teaching subjects that in your eyes are important and in their eyes are less. Why do you call it privileges? You keep going around the slogans of allowances, violence (my father), and privilege, but let's call the child by his name. All you are asking is to apply to a group that thinks differently than you, the method and the way you advocate, and which you believe is the most correct.
It's called coercion.
Even the ultra-Orthodox who want you not to ride buses on Shabbat believe they are saving your life... but this is coercion in the full sense of the word.
Why should a certain group, even if it is a minority and not a majority, why should its educational institutions not receive a regular budget (!) like secular educational institutions. For example, you could decide that it is forbidden to study in the schools of minority children in Arabic but only in Hebrew. It's not compulsion, tell me. Those who want to learn Arabic should open a school in the afternoon and study there in Arabic or Chinese.
Anything can be put in a configuration that is pleasing to our ears. But this is purely secular coercion.
And if the goal is to create openness (which in the more distant future will lead to work integration, service in the army or national service and many, many more welcome changes) in the ultra-orthodox public, then in my opinion the solutions I propose will be more useful. Unless the goal is different, but I don't test kidneys and heart as you already noticed... so I would love to hear from you what is the goal of forcing the core studies?
A person:
I don't think you read my words, and if you did - you didn't understand.
Denying the ultra-Orthodox privileges over ordinary mortals is not anti-religious coercion.
No one prevents them from engaging in religion or séances or singing in public in their free time and at their own expense.
I came to join me in this
You can't force anything on the ultra-Orthodox, you can't "show them", and regardless of petty insistence, even the Americans, who are the father of freedom blah blah blah, realized that you can't force the ultra-Orthodox and the Amish studies they don't want.
It's really anti-religious coercion!
As Y. said, allocate resources to the 20-30 year olds!!
Little by little, the rabbis will realize that this is not a great disaster, and over the years it will seep into yeshivot trends as well.
And even if not - not bad. At least you will earn high-quality horses with the habit of tearing themselves apart while sitting, with a great work ethic, polished heads and ambitions to succeed.
J:
You think you examine kidneys and heart and know better than me what I want.
You are wrong.
I don't know why you are making a mockery of the mistake I made in understanding history from your misleading words - that is not the subject of the discussion. I addressed this because because of the terrible mistake I made in documenting your biography - I thought it was related to the discussion, but now - since it is clear that it was a mistake - it is allowed to let the topic die and not make it the main thing.
If you didn't understand what I meant - let me explain it again:
It is more than necessary to allocate resources to achieve the goal - it is necessary to exclude resources.
Any financial support for the schools must be conditioned on the teaching of the core curriculum and no support at all for schools that do not do so.
The payments for "his teachings and his art" should be reduced and eventually canceled.
All residents of the State of Israel must be required to do military or national service.
Only these are the things that will lead to achievements in the long run.
And as for gray work - you have a very basic mistake.
It is clear that there are employees who do gray work, but they are not the ones who create the company's right to exist.
Large computer companies even have drivers. So what?!
To create successful companies, brilliant professionals are necessary.
These are found in society sparingly, and the ultra-Orthodox training system means that a significant part of those who could give the companies the shine - work gray work, at best, and do not work at all, at worst.
My father regarding response no. 19:
Yes, explicitly a law that cannot be implemented is better left unwritten.
I didn't understand the phrase "calling for the victory of violence". What violence are you talking about? We talked about a law that came to impose on the ultra-Orthodox studies that in your eyes every child should study. I claimed that in my opinion the ultra-Orthodox educational institutions will find a thousand and one ways every day to circumvent the law. All you will create is antagonism and discouragement from the core studies. Why does anyone who doesn't think like you, even if they are as far east as west, automatically get a definition of violence? If the ultra-Orthodox public ignores the law and does not implement it on a daily basis as you expect, will the ultra-Orthodox public become gods? You are the one trying to impose your opinion on him and not the other way around.
In general, according to you, it would be better if the whole world was uniform, I agree with all your opinions, with one education system. where you learn what you want, and only what you want, etc. according to how you want (questions about evolution - hes not to mention - only I'm right, only I understand, only I know). Only with this approach science could not progress to where it stands today. To remind you, you edit the most popular science website in Israel. Pluralism is not only if everyone agrees in my opinion...
I try time and time again to explain and it seems to me that you and Michael are a bit locked. So I will try again.
I did not claim that core studies are unnecessary. I argued that when it comes to the ultra-Orthodox going to work it is much more important to allocate (currently!) resources in studies to the 20-30 year olds.
For some reason I have the feeling that your and Michael's goal is not for them to study core studies with the ultra-Orthodox, but rather to "win" the ultra-Orthodox. "Show them" in the most simplistic sense of the word.
And this is what I claimed and I repeat and claim that it is easy to sit here on the website and say that laws of secular coercion will be enforced. The ones who should carry it out are the politicians you love to hate so much (maybe tonight you got real fuel for your dislike of them...). And so the politicians try to find more practical ways than a somewhat superficial rant, which seeks to completely ignore the reality on the ground. And it won't help how many times you write again and again and again "laws must be enforced". How easy it is to talk when the responsibility is not yours.
If your goal is for the ultra-Orthodox to be more open and if part of the goal is for them to go to work, then you have to leave the angry rhetoric and try to bridge the gap and change the situation with practical tools. Some of them are painful like the cuts that Netanyahu led, and some of them are benevolent like professional trainings and opening barriers.
And regarding Michael's response 16:
Reporter:
"If you studied some of the subjects necessary for work in another framework, there would be no point or logic in pointing out the fact that you did not study them in high school.
For that matter - there is no difference between company management and development management."
Of course there is sense and logic because once again, I am trying to lead to the fact that the resources that are allocated for the benefit of putting the ultra-Orthodox to work, in my opinion, should be allocated to the eunuchs and not to the children. Obviously, they will have to learn the subjects required for that specific job. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
And regarding the difference between managing a company and managing development, I was just amazed at how you established the fact that I was parachuted in from above and managed without knowing what my team was doing, and opened a whole discussion on the matter including a reference to books... Regarding the core program, there really is no difference between managing a development team and managing a company.
Again, in my opinion, what you want is not to see the ultra-orthodox integrate, but only to kindle the fire and perpetuity between the populations. And it's a shame. Because in war as in war both sides always lose. A winner is the one who drives wisely and gives up a little in the short term in order to reap the rewards in the long term.
And regarding the gray work: do you think that all ten thousand Google employees are engaged in innovation? From my knowledge of the software world, I'm sure not. Most of the workers are engaged in menial work. More than that, as someone who lives the software world in Israel, most of the high-tech workers in Israel work in gray work and are not only engaged in innovation every day. Are you interested in 70-80% (at least) of the high-tech work being exported to India or Eastern Europe?
Yehudi - that was your last comment. I don't know where all the members of my father's family perished, not his direct family that immigrated to Israel but his uncles and cousins - and there were dozens and none of them remained. As for my mother - she was in the ghetto, and just before they were taken to the extermination camps, partisans occupied their ghetto for one day and they fled to the forest and lived with the partisans until the Russians entered. In my opinion, extermination camp survivors who have already been there are a negligible number among Holocaust survivors. Take for example people who lived as Christians, aren't they holocaust survivors with the same rights?
Jewish:
From your words it is quite clear that you did not belong to the same group that was tested in the psychometric tests because you do not even know how to read.
You direct your response 35 to me as if it were responding to something I said.
Well - those who read my words (response 29) see straight away that there is no connection.
keep rambling.
Avi Blizovsky:
My parents were in extermination camps, so I think it's a shame that during the week of Holocaust Day you present it in this way.
You stated that your parents are Holocaust survivors?! It doesn't look like which camp they were in.
Marshmallow:
The doctoral student's rant is a sermon in front of the leftist audience that suits him together with Kem fans.
The real data of such exams that have been done in recent years are far beyond the average on any scale.
And even if you take a random group of students from highly regarded yeshivos against a random group of XNUMXth graders who study at well-regarded schools. And give them the same psychometric test that only includes pure logic.
You will see that those from the yeshiva put those from the high schools in their smallest pocket.
I personally know the capabilities of these and those.
Mr. Yehudi Kashkashen, you picked up with incredible ease the numbers that the ultra-Orthodox put out and I am adding a link to the blog ofRoey Tsezana that talks exactly about this statistical lie and how much it distorts reality
http://www.tapuz.co.il/blog/ViewEntry.asp?EntryId=1475032
Mr. Amichai: Mr. Machal:
The groups were tested in the general psychometric tests. It is impossible to prepare for this exam and get over 700 points if you don't have a suitable mind even if you study for two or three years.
These teams easily averaged over 700 points.
When there were quite a few over 750 points.
We will see you get such a score in these exams.
The national averages are far below that.
Avi Blizovsky:
The picture combined with the caption is very similar to the Stirmer style propaganda.
Who is the instigator here?
Enter the following search into Google
- honking anti-Semitism at its best -
and the next
- 26.8.1903 "Elders of Zion" -
You will get examples quite similar to your title
The one who may sue for incitement is you, honorable sir!
Friends.
If you have already decided to answer the wretched Jew, say so!
1. Educational studies have shown me that if an adult studies seriously for an exam, he can successfully study a year's worth of high school material in just two or three months. Therefore, there is nothing unique about the data of the ultra-Orthodox studies.
2. If we accept for a moment the assumption that the ultra-Orthodox have a higher than average intellectual potential, then this only intensifies the social crime that the ultra-Orthodox commit against their children in order to prevent them from developing their abilities
and thereby contribute to themselves and society. Instead they raise them to be socially disabled, and like me able to function in an open society outside of their ghettos. (Yes, I know there are few exceptions to this rule, so please don't give me personal examples.)
3. The claim that yeshiva students must be supported in order to "return Atara to its former glory" is false. Note that throughout Jewish history, the communities kept only a very small number of outstanding scholars, at the expense of the public.
The fact is that the number of yeshiva students supported in Israel by the state, in one year, is greater than the cumulative number of yeshiva students supported by the Jewish communities, in Israel and in the diaspora, during approximately two thousand years of rabbinic history, from the destruction of the Temple to the establishment of the State of Israel.
When we understand this, perhaps we will know better how to deal with the strange distortion of the state's attitude towards a parasitic and exploitative public that tries to appropriate true Judaism.
Judaism today is pluralistic! But to our shame, some of the "secular" politicians, in most of their ignorance and stupidity, tend to accept these false claims.
Why?!?!??!?!
Lmmmmmmmhhhhhhhhh?!?!?
To hell with it! I enter the science site to escape from politics and social opinions!
Why should such a thing appear on a site like science?
Ok so what do they do all day if not work? :\
I have no problem blocking him. I think it is important that the public understand who the fanatics are. In this particular case I decided not to block but if he continues these calls he will be blocked and a complaint will be filed with his internet provider.
Jewish:
The issue with the averages is nonsense because those who took the tests were not average ultra-Orthodox, but rather those who were far above the average and embodied within them both the motivation and the intelligence that led them despite the oppressive atmosphere of education in their community - to try to be accepted for studies.
The whole idea of psychometric tests is to neutralize the effect of education.
These tests are designed to identify a person's intellectual potential and to give fair invitations even to those who did not receive an excellent education.
And yet - if you take the most intelligent person in the world and let him launch a rocket to the moon without having studied mathematics or physics - there is no chance that he will do it while a person with average intelligence could do it if he received the appropriate education.
In other words: there is no reason to lie.
my father
After the wretched Jew, he actually called you a Nazi, an anti-Semite and a Goebbels sympathizer,
Do you still answer him with journalistic courtesy? Instead of throwing it down all the stairs!
In my opinion, he and his ilk should not be allowed to express themselves on the site unless they apologize for their slurs.
After all, the harm is not only to you, but to all the fans of the site.
And please don't confuse me for a democratic site. The site has a clear policy and its right (and duty) to defend itself against its haters, in the simplest way of defensive democracy.
When you spit in our face don't say rain,
The secular public must put an end to the looting of the public purse by non-contributing, non-productive and even hostile sectors such as the ultra-Orthodox sector, and other sectors. The ultra-Orthodox work everywhere in the world except in Israel, and we need to put an end to it.
Find me a better picture and most importantly - free.
Do you have a picture of Yeshiva members studying Torah?
Avi Blizovsky:
The photo of ultra-Orthodox with beards and Streimel is just like the pictures in Stirmer.
The combination of this picture with the title above it is incitement in the Stirmer style, you don't even need to add to them
long noses
So go work for Goebbels.
A note on the matter itself: did you know that in the psychometric tests for ultra-orthodox groups they achieved far above average
National in the men's and women's groups separately.
It also turns out that the time they spent preparing for exams including English was a very few months instead of four years in general education.
J:
I agree with my father and in my opinion - it is also possible to oblige them to consider others.
It's all a matter of canceling the funding of the parasites and enforcing the law by any means necessary.
Besides - even if the nonsense that I hate X more than I hate Y was true - (and it is not true) it would not justify X's criminality
Year:
You are wrong about everything you said.
To Michael.
If you check some statistics you will find that the ultra-Orthodox contribute much more than the Arabs on every scale. And of course they don't hurt us like the Arabs (murder, theft, etc.). (Statistically, it's understandable to anyone with a mind, don't tell me that the one from there was ultra-orthodox...)
For some reason I don't believe that you hate Arabs as much as you hate your ultra-Orthodox brothers...
To Yair, an academic analysis of the dire situation of the country is necessarily within the scope of the site.
J. If you think a law should not be enacted because the ultra-Orthodox will bypass it, this is actually a call for the victory of violence.
If you ask me, there should be one state education system and anyone who wants to learn more things should do so in the afternoons.
The difference between politicians and the citizens is that the politicians have to deal with reality.
Complaining and raising ideas here on the site is very easy. It's just that it is difficult to implement, it will lead to even more rifts, even more entrenchment of positions, to a waste that will be useful (perhaps) in about twenty years. You can forget in the current constellation that Yeshiva will be able to introduce core studies. And I know what I'm talking about. No matter what you do it just won't go away. Focusing on core studies in elementary today is more of a militant principle than a practical practice that will truly lead to the integration of ultra-Orthodox people into the labor market for the benefit of the general public.
More than that. Even if you believe that it will eventually pass and you succeed in forcing the elementary students to teach the core subjects, they will find a thousand and one ways to get around it every day. Just as the ultra-orthodox public will never succeed by coercion on the secular public, it will not work with secular coercion either.
On the other hand, if you focus on ways to change the openness of the ultra-orthodox public, which is indeed a longer and slower process and without magic, but at the end of the day it is the healthy and correct process. And in my opinion, only with this method, at the end of the day, you will also be able to introduce core studies to elementary and maybe maybe after a few more good years also to yeshiva. Only core studies in yeshivot will benefit the ultra-Orthodox in the job market. Elementary schooling will be worth nothing if after 7-8 years they don't learn anything.
Again, you can choose to be militant and believe in the rightness of your way. But there is a reality that needs to be faced and therefore it is worthwhile and better to act with wisdom and reason and not with militant enthusiasm.
Year:
Why did you suddenly hate ultra-Orthodox?!
And why should we hate those who make a living from our money and live thanks to the blood we donate to the army without investing anything of their own?
J:
I made the mistake of describing your personal history because of the way you described it.
If you studied some of the subjects necessary for work in another framework, there would be no point or logic in pointing out the fact that you did not study them in high school.
For that matter - there is no difference between company management and development management.
I repeat and thus I continue to disagree with you completely - the success of Israeli companies and the success of the economy depends on innovation and not on grayness and this is also true for companies like Checkpoint and others.
The question of whether to sell a company or not is a financial question of people and has nothing to do with the question of whether it is innovation or sleepiness.
The sale of a company should not be seen as a failure but as a realization of profits.
Many times the implementers also return and invest their profits in developing additional innovation within a new company.
A drab Israeli company will not be able to succeed in the world in a way that will advance the economy.
J. I don't know about Michael, but I believe you are wrong, what did you say that nothing can be done with the core studies in elementary school? There are laws and they should be enforced and not circumvented as our politicians know. They should have established that a school that does not uphold the law will be fined (as well as a school that teaches to be angry on Independence Day) and after a million children walk around between their legs they will be forced to accept the 'decree'.
If you want to enforce a law, you can also mobilize the police to arrest principals whose schools do not teach the core curriculum. The state must not deliberately encourage ignorance.
What is the connection between the article and the science website (which is supposed to be a science website).
It's fine, I know I don't need to answer - hatred of the ultra-Orthodox...
Michael, it's a shame that you responded without reading what I wrote.
First, I didn't manage a company, I managed a development team at one of the largest high-tech companies in Israel.
See how it is clear to you based on prejudice that I parachuted, etc. So it's not. I grew from the bottom. I came to the company as a programmer with a year and a half of experience. After four years as a programmer I got a management position of a development team. I worked very hard until then and it was by merit and not by grace. Yes, I understood exactly what my team was doing. I had done it before for years, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten the job.
You have built a whole theory and have already sent me to read books that will explain why it is wrong to do what I did not do...
I'm not saying you shouldn't study. I just hope they understand that this is a long process of change. Instead of making impossible progress in the core studies in elementary school, in my opinion we should focus on studies for the abrachs which is allowed today for the majority of opinions in the ultra-Orthodox public. Only after years of the ultra-Orthodox public entering the job market en masse, will a slow change in perception take place and then it may be more open to accepting changes in the elementary curriculum (need to mention - but I believe that eventually it will also reach yeshivots).
The difference between me and you is in attitude. The belligerent approach achieves nothing. Like everything in life, you have to be wise and less righteous.
Regardless, I completely disagree with you about the gray work.
The number one problem of high-tech companies in Israel is the inability to persist in gray work. Therefore, companies from Israel are sold and fail to reach business maturity like Check Point Amdocs Combs and the other few companies that did persevere and succeeded.
It is true that our uniqueness is in the glitters, but if we are the objects of life and want to see the economy positioned as a rich economy, we must invest in the gray work. Only it will stabilize Israel for years and in the long term as a rich economy. You must not run away from it. Why did I have to manage Indian programmers instead of managing ultra-Orthodox programmers who would contribute much more to our economy? We must invest a lot in the gray work as well. And the ultra-orthodox public is very suitable for this.
A brat who happens to be a Jew
Sit down and read and learn about Goebbels, a substantive discussion of an article should not include derogatory names or curses.
The use of parts of the ultra-Orthodox group with concepts such as Nazi, etc. is intolerable and shows ignorance not only in areas such as mathematics. This shows a comprehensive ignorance in almost all areas of human knowledge.
You will learn from the other ultra-Orthodox commenters to answer a matter-of-fact and respectful response.
It is possible that the ultra-Orthodox population needs shock treatment to solve the problems such as the cessation of allowances from one day to the next, which will force them to start dealing with respectable work (not just yeshiva) and immediate recruitment into the army.
for a Jew
First of all, it is impudent to leave such a message during the week of Holocaust Day, and in general, as the son of a Holocaust survivor, I have a very high sensitivity to the subject of the Holocaust.
Second, where does it say in the Ten Commandments "You shall not work"? Since when is the demand to see to it that they can join the labor market and not be canceled an illegitimate demand? One of them was quoted on Channel 10 when this humiliating law was passed canceling the compulsory core studies "Orthodox education was saved." Maybe ultra-Orthodox education was saved (if you can call ignorance a saving will), but the State of Israel is gone.
It's been clear to me for at least 15 years, now it's probably a warning light that everyone sees.
Prof. Ben David, if you had invested the resources you spent on the research to find a solution to the problem, we would have gotten paid. And for the matter of fact, what do you propose to stop transfer payments to ultra-Orthodox and Arabs?
A person:
It's not a complicated matter!
There is a core plan.
They don't ask the ultra-Orthodox to go and study it with the eunuchs, the nomads, and the eaters of the prey, but in their schools.
They refuse to do so.
What program exactly do you want them to do for you?
Why not start driving with logic and fairness and that's it?!
J:
Assuming that you did manage a high-tech company - I still assume that you did not know how to do most of the jobs that the people you managed did.
In fact, you could not grow in such a company from the inside, but only fall on it in some destructive mechanism (unless you were its first manager).
Management without knowing the work of the managed is usually inferior to management in which the work is known.
More than that - the process of dropping managers is known as a process that is destructive to companies (read the book Built to last which analyzes the factors for the long-term success of companies).
Now honestly:
Do you really think that avoiding useful studies is useful or is it a phenomenon that needs to be fought?
The percentage of ultra-Orthodox who started learning to work is tiny and even if it increases it will not help anything. Israel is a small country that must be based on the development of brilliant technologies and not on a gray workforce that creates "another one like this" instead of "something new that doesn't exist yet".
To create new things you really need to be educated.
As an ultra-orthodox who belongs to the most orthodox circles, I understand very well the value of "Torah with Derech Eretz" which affects both the well-being of the employee and his immediate environment as well as society as a whole. But on the other hand, I am well aware of the great difficulty of integrating the ultra-Orthodox (who are very different from the religious-nationalist public) into secular lifestyles, especially in the younger school years.
I hereby call on Dr. Dan Ben David and all those involved in this important issue to develop an appropriate platform and infrastructure suitable for this important and decent public in coordination with people who are well versed in the ways of the public (because only a person on the inside truly understands what ultra-Orthodox needs are) and to promote dialogue and action with the leaders of the ultra-Orthodox public To implement the integration of the ultra-orthodox in higher education. This is a very high-quality public, both in terms of level of thinking and intelligence, as well as morally and socially (ignore the fringes of the fringes who star in their bullying in the media, which always chooses to show the marginal and most negligible ugliness of the ultra-Orthodox)
My father - honestly, I don't understand how you find a connection to the theory of evolution in any matter. I'm talking about studies for the purpose of work and less for the purpose of academics, which will also eventually come if the ultra-Orthodox public opens up and goes out to work more.
Laren - this is not true. As one who lives in my community, I can tell you that I encounter a lot of people who can and are suitable to work in high-tech and again, they can integrate into the field even without mathematics. English is another story, but it is one subject that can be focused on in a short period of time and train the intended employee.
I remember the shock that gripped my co-worker who worked on my team. After about two years, a group of ten people from the company were sitting in a restaurant (glat kosher...) and someone told her that I don't have a high school diploma... She didn't understand that, but then everyone came to the conclusion that there really isn't much use of mathematics in programming proper IT applications. And I'm talking about applications that sit with the largest companies in the world and pass through them transactions of billions of dollars a year.
As an ultra-Orthodox who works in a secular society, I can testify that studying the Gemara contributed a lot to my creative thinking, which is very, very suitable for programming. Therefore, I believe that there is a very large part of the ultra-orthodox public that, if they were to enter the labor market, they would easily integrate into the software field.
Again, I agree that it is possible that if I had studied in elementary and high school, I would have chosen research in physics as a profession for life or something similar and not in IT application programming, which is a field that is not so complex (relatively, of course). But I strongly believe that if the secular public was not "religious", and started to think a little wisely and not out of emotions of justice, or out of political rating considerations, then the late Tommy Lapid would have been an enthusiastic supporter of the Tal Law and not opposed to it.
The secular public pays twice. Once in the fact that the ultra-Orthodox do not serve and the second time in the fact that the ultra-Orthodox who do not serve are blocked from working. And so an ultra-Orthodox who wants to work has to wait until the age of 25-30 so that he can just start and try to enter the job market. And this is in addition to the enormous social pressure that exists in the Lithuanian public that work is an inferior thing. The link between the army and labor was, in my opinion, a mistake by both the Chazon Ish and Ben Gurion, and they did not realize what injustice they were causing to the ultra-Orthodox public, which entered deeper and deeper into the cycle of poverty and the entire Israeli economy.
In my opinion, if the government had acted wisely, they would have waived the issue of work even for those who did not serve and signed the "teachings of his upbringing". I believe that if this had happened about twenty years ago, today the majority of the ultra-orthodox public would already be serving in the army.
In the current situation where the ultra-Orthodox public is closed in on itself, there is no possibility of a broad perceptual change. Such a change is a long process. It's just that the government's duty is to create tools that will enable the necessary change.
Cutting allowances was one of them and it did contribute a lot to the ultra-Orthodox going to work. It's just that it's still not the required mass. Changing the Tal Law, so that it would allow every ultra-Orthodox 20-year-old or older to go to work, could have greatly increased the numbers. Although I understand that this is not possible, because the secular public will complain and rightly so (although not wisely). That is why the Tal Law needs to be expanded little by little. That way the secular public will not revolt. And the "scholars" in the ultra-Orthodox public will not go wild either, and when the majority of the public goes to work it will already be a fait accompli.
Beyond that, we need to invest in dedicated study institutes for dedicated professions for the ultra-Orthodox public, and I would finance the studies because it would save and contribute to the state much, much more. But this is something that, according to what I understand and according to the government's statements, they have probably already been carrying out more intensively in the last year.
Father - it's time I would like to invite you to sit. No, not to convert you... I live in a completely ultra-Orthodox area, and I would like you to get to know a little about the public you are constantly attacking, and to know that it has different shades and great people. I think it can contribute a lot to you. And maybe change a little your absolute religious perception against my public (and a big thank you for the wonderful website).
to me. The difference between you and the average Haredi is that you are probably a bright guy. The average ultra-Orthodox who "didn't study matriculation subjects either in elementary school or in high school" will find it difficult to integrate into high-tech. Since even a basic level of English is something that is not found, people like you that I had the chance to meet at Hi-Tech, are the exceptions to the rule that testify to the rule.
But unfortunately not all ultra-Orthodox are like you.
Regarding the OECD matter, apparently the data is not updated, I also read the article by Saber Plutzker two weeks ago.
The problem is that, unlike you, I don't believe that the change will come by itself because it has strong barriers at home.
for a Jew-
Would you please explain to me why you are reading and commenting on this site?
I understand from your words that you do not like the editor of the site and probably do not agree with most of the ideas and facts that are published here. I want to give you a tip: your provocative comments only increase the site's rating. Every reaction of yours will be triggered by a reaction that is high in strength and opposite in direction. Therefore, to cause maximum damage to the site, it is recommended for you not to respond at all.
Have a good morning everyone, and thanks to my father for the fascinating article.
Avi Blizovsky
Go work for Goebbels suits you
The education system is the Achilles heel of the State of Israel. We should be less afraid of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas, because it is the lack of education that is crumbling this country from the inside. Little by little, we are erasing her future.
A radical change is needed, and perhaps we have already passed the point of no return...
This is an unforgivable mistake, because no one will give us a second chance.
Don't forget that Israel also grew, but so did the OECD countries. And Israel did this with insufficient participation of Haredim and Arabs in the labor market, we might have been able to grow twice as much if everyone who was able had worked.
As for the criteria for admission to the OECD, it does not depend only on education and the environment (another area where Israel lags behind) but on other areas such as the war on corruption.
As for the ultra-Orthodox - without core studies, the vast majority of them are expected to be degenerate and lack basic ability - and we don't talk to them about the theory of evolution (which, unfortunately, even the seculars don't study properly so as not to upset the ultra-Orthodox) but about mathematics and English. I would not have been able to get along in the world and translate news for the benefit of website users without the English I learned in the Israeli education system.
There are some unclear data in the study, such as the statement that the standard of living in Israel did not rise relatively as in other Western countries. sounds strange. To state that in the seventies we were closer to the West than today is a bit delusional. Everyone who lives in Israel knows that the standard of living in Israel is slowly approaching the Western countries and today we are already on par with the countries like Ireland, Portugal and Spain (even before the crisis they went through in the last year), and we are only on an upward trend in general in the last twenty years, which increased after Netanyahu was appointed minister The Treasury, and especially in the last year after his election as Prime Minister. At least in terms of economic policy, there is no denying that he is leading Israel forward in XNUMXD.
In the XNUMXs, on the other hand, the gap between Israel and the Western countries was large and not without reason, only this year was it finally accepted into the OECD organization.
Regarding the research on the ultra-Orthodox, I agree. but…
I'm ultra-Orthodox and I didn't study for matriculation either in elementary school or in high school, yet in recent years I managed a development team at one of the largest hi-tech companies in Israel. Therefore, in light of my experience, I believe that the problem (even though it exists) is not in elementary and high school studies, but more in opening and creating conditions that facilitate and encourage the community to move to a regular job. Matriculation and an academic degree are important for subjects such as physics, chemistry, or high-level algorithm programming. Most of the software companies (if we take the software field as an example) in Israel do not need this knowledge, so you should focus mainly on the population of men aged 20-30 and less in elementary school.
The data of the study presented in the media compares between 2008 and 1979 and the data that compares the years in the last decade is missing. According to what I know in the last few years, after Netanyahu's cut in allowances, a welcome trend of entering work among the ultra-orthodox public is beginning to emerge. As expected, this trend is expanding and even if there are more working men in the ultra-orthodox public, the easier it will be for those who sit on the fence to make the transition. Therefore, in the short term I would concentrate the most efforts on the population aged 20-30. After the majority of the ultra-orthodox public will enter the workforce, and especially the public that will enter more prestigious professions such as the world of software, little by little a more favorable basis will be created for a perceptual change regarding elementary studies and perhaps even in yeshiva that are equivalent to high school age. But it is a long process that will take at least a decade or two, and will happen only after a sufficiently large mass of abrachs have gone to work regularly.
With a lot of patience and wisdom and above all allocating resources and energies at the right points instead of trying to change everything at once, the potential of this huge public, the majority of which develops an impressive intellectual thinking during the years of study in yeshiva, will be able to push Israel's economy to heights we have only dreamed of.