When "she" is sad, I am sad too

Ethics / Do robots have souls? A conversation with the theological advisor of the artificial intelligence laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology

By Claudia Dreyfuss, New York Times

13/11/2000
Dr. Anne First, a researcher at the Artificial Intelligence Laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and director of the "Computers and God" project at the institute, apologized that a robot named Kismet could not participate in the interview. "Cynthia Breazil, who built Kismet, is currently in Japan, and without her it's impossible to operate the robot," said First in a German accent, "but you would surely like her. She is so cute."

A cute robot? It turns out that it is. In the artificial intelligence lab, engineers are trying to build robots with social skills and near-human experiences, and as an experiment, they have built creatures that they believe will be able to communicate with humans.

Dr. Prest, 34, a Lutheran priest who made a living repairing computers during her eight years of academic studies in Germany, serves as a theological advisor to the scientists building Kismet and its robot brother, Cog.

What exactly do the scientists do in the lab?

"We are trying to build social robots with human-like bodies. Kog, for example, is a robot modeled after a human baby. It has a body, two arms, a head, ears and eyes. He learns to adjust the movements of his arms so that he can explore the environment, as infants do today. Kismet is a robot that communicates with humans through posture changes and facial expressions. The purpose of the project is to investigate social interactions between humans and robots and between humans and themselves."

Why is there a need for a theologian in the laboratory?

"For two reasons. The first is that when building human-like machines, you follow certain assumptions in relation to humans. Theologians study the cultural and spiritual dimensions of the question 'what is the meaning of human existence': working with the robot developers enables a deeper understanding of the human soul, and also helps researchers to improve the human-like machines.

"The second reason is that when building social robots, which force people to treat them as if they were human, complex moral questions arise. One of the questions we often discuss is, what will happen when the robots are developed to the point where they cannot be turned off. In the end, the main question is, when should any creature be treated as if it has value in itself."

And when do you think a robot should be treated as if it has value in itself?

"I don't think it will happen in the next fifty years. But when that happens, it will be the robot builders who will have to decide because they, unlike others, will not fall prey to fears about the human-like qualities of the machines. They will know what is inside."

What makes the Kog and Kismet robots different from previous robots?

"In previous attempts, very abstract features of human intelligence were introduced into the machine: the ability to play chess, prove mathematical theorems. According to the current idea, for a machine to be truly intelligent it needs to be embodied in a human-like body. Our claim is that it is impossible to separate the intelligence from the body.

"Kog moves and experiences the world in a way that a person walking on two might experience. He experiences balance problems, problems of friction, weight, gravity, all the things we experience, so he has a body sensation similar to ours. In addition, we give machines human-like qualities to evoke social responses in the people who interact with them. Kog is a whole body, and Kismet is mainly a head and facial expression. Our work with Kog is focused on building a human-like body, and the work with Kismet is more related to social-emotional learning."

Is kismet female?

"Robots are objects, neither male nor female. But I can't help but see Kismet as "her". Anyone who sees Kismet cannot help but be deeply impressed by her highly expressive face: long eyelashes, big blue eyes, moving eyebrows, a cute mouth that invites a kiss. When Kismet looks at you and looks sad, you want to make her happy. Of course, you also think, 'It's just a dumb machine.' But you react, without being able to control it."

There is a widespread opinion, according to which human beings have an undefined addition beyond the tangible life, and it is this that gives them their humanity. Some call it "soul". Can a robot have a soul?

"One of the people who works here in the lab calls it 'juice.' He says, "Even if I do everything right, doesn't the robot lack some 'juice'?" I would say, from a religious point of view, that the 'mitch' comes from the surrounding world and is expressed in social interaction."

Some may argue that by building humanoid robots you are trying to take the place of God.

"Yes I know. But in fact, if you use biology as an inspiration in building robots and focus on physical illustration and creating a social environment, you become much more modest. Suddenly you realize that even the most brilliant robot, on which the most brilliant engineers worked for years, is more stupid than an ant."

In the many plays, books and movies dealing with robots, the dramatic climax is always the moment when the machine becomes aware of its surroundings. In the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" the robot God became dangerous to humans from the moment he became conscious.

"Also in 'Frankenstein'. But in both cases there is an explanation. When you look at Frankenstein, he never becomes part of a community. The creator immediately abandoned it. Those around him hated him, feared him, ran away from him. The only man who loved him was a blind man who didn't know what he looked like. No one treated Frankenstein as a valuable being, someone to be respected. He had to fight the company that ostracized him. Where will the kindness come from, if he has never experienced it himself?

"The same is true in the case of God. And he is also bodiless. He has no body, through which he can experience the world. I would even say that under such conditions a robot cannot have awareness. In the movie God gains awareness at some point, and no one notices. No one treats him properly, he is isolated, and what happens? He became psychotic."

What is your favorite robot movie?

"Blade Runner". I teach it in my classes. The robots are searching for meaning, and when their quest is not taken seriously they become deadly. The film raises a wonderful question: how do humanoid creatures feel about the fact that they were created by us, and how do they deal with their man-made limitations?
(Originally published on 7.11)

New York Times

{Appeared in Haaretz newspaper, 13/11/2000}

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