The detailed interview given by the late Ilan Ramon to the Hidan site, about six months before the disaster

February 1 will mark four years since the Columbia disaster. On June 29 and 30, 2002, I interviewed Ilan Ramon at the Johnson Space Center in Houston for the movie "Flight 107" that was broadcast on 16/12/2003.

In a relaxed conversation with him on the grass in Houston, Ilan Ramon explains his modest vision regarding the question of what he will do when he returns from space and Israel's need to integrate into the space economy. In the post-disaster perspective, some things are chilling

The article was published on the old website in three parts, the first of which was on December 23.12.2002, XNUMX, that is, a few weeks before the launch, and should be treated as such. Parts, albeit limited, excerpts from the interview are also used in the book "The Crash" By Avi Blizovsky and Ypa Shir-Raz (Excerpt from the book)

In this framework, we have uploaded hundreds of articles dealing with the disaster to the new website:

Coverage of the operation even before the disaster (and the direct news about the disaster) STS-107. The first days after the disaster, in their knowledge Columbia disaster - Mayday reportsm, all the news, mainly from the course of 2003 that report on progress The investigation of the disaster (up to and including the investigation committee's report). Some of the news was also forwarded to the following people: Columbia disaster - commemorative actions, Columbia disaster - opinions and interpretations. All of these can be reached jointly through Yadan Space Shuttle Columbia.

In addition, a separate field was dedicated toIlan Ramon The late - concerning personal aspects and the connection with the Israeli space program. This knower is part of a cluster Israel in space.

The interview was published on the old website in three parts a few days before the launch (end of December 2002, beginning of January 2003) and is presented here verbatim, although some of the words sound jarring in retrospect. This is for documentation purposes.

By: Avi Blizovsky

Ilan Ramon wears the space suit for training
I want to return to Ramat Gan

Brigadier General Ilan Ramon has not yet decided what he will do when he returns. According to the advice and recommendation of the former president, Eizer Weizman, he wants to succeed in the mission first and only then will he think about what to do next. One of the items he takes with him into space was the flag of the Belich school in Ramat Hen where he studied. "I grew up in Ramat Chen, and I will probably also live there when I return to Israel," he explains.
In a casual conversation on the grass, he refers to the fact that as a pilot his face is not allowed to be seen and suddenly he becomes, as they say, a celebrity. It doesn't go well with his humble nature.

When we planned the film, it was the most stressful period of the countdown. On June 28, there were three weeks left until the launch of the shuttle Columbia scheduled for July 19, and the window of opportunity for this interview was just one day before the team's traditional press conference where the astronauts answer CNN's various questions about the flight. However, a few days before, cracks were discovered in two of the shuttles - Discovery and Atlantis - in the pipe that carries the fuel from the external tanks to the shuttle itself to give it a push into space. Although these are cracks up to half a centimeter wide, it is enough for tiny fragments from these pipes to be pumped into one of the engines to stop its operation and cause the spacecraft not to reach orbit. In the optimistic scenario, the spacecraft may detach from the rocket and make an emergency landing. Most likely it would end up like the Challenger disaster in 1986.
Finally, it turned out that the other two spaceships - Columbia, on which Ramon was supposed to take off, and Endeavor were affected by the malfunction. Now we are waiting for the construction of new spare parts and maybe before that for a redesign of those parts to uproot the problem from the root.
Ramon and his friends may be disappointed, but they feel relieved: "The postponement of our flight, of all flights in fact, shows that NASA takes the issue of flight safety above all else. And they are not interested in this section of safety, launch dates and other issues. They first make sure that every shuttle is launched safely 99.9 percent, not 101 maybe even XNUMX percent. When this problem was discovered, they basically decided to ground the entire fleet. They asked not to launch any shuttles until they fully understood what the problem was. And that's about where we are now. They do chemical and mechanical analyzes to understand what the problem is and what it means, and if it needs to be fixed, how to do it. And that's the situation right now. Therefore, we do not currently know what the launch date is. It will be the fastest but after they understand what the problem is and take care of it. Of course, no one is happy about delays, but paradoxically in this matter I am very happy, because it is proof of how seriously NASA takes the issue of safety. And every time they ask me if I'm scared, I explain it and here's the proof of how seriously they take it.
Willie McCall, the deputy commander and pilot of the shuttle takes it even easier: "The training was very massive, especially in the last weeks before the launch. Now we can reduce the tension a bit, maybe even take a little vacation." McCall, by the way, promised our team to let Ramon fly the shuttle in space (not during takeoff or landing) - if Ramon asks for proof of this, it is on the tape.

Flight 107 is an unusual flight and more reminiscent of shuttle flights from the 16s and early XNUMXs. It is particularly long - XNUMX days and is entirely dedicated to experiments. From the reference to a whole day of Ithnoim parties, it seems as if this is a shuttle of the Israeli Space Agency. All the press conferences referred to either the Israeli experiment or its main operator - Ilan Ramon.

"One clear evening someone from the Air Force Officers Department called me, which is personnel. I was busy at work and trying to finish the day, to finally get home. He told me "you want to be an astronaut" I told him stop confusing my brain. I have no time for jokes. I want to finish the day and get home.
He told me: "The commander of the Air Force asked us to locate an astronaut." I asked for time to consult with my wife. I replied in the morning. Later, a normal staffing process will be done in the Air Force like any other position, and I was selected for this process.
The message of Dan Halutz, today the commander of the corps, was short. He was my direct supervisor at the time. He was in this discussion, and I was in my office. When it was decided that I would be the astronaut, he came out, picked up the phone and said to me 'Ilan, ya astronaut' and that's how I learned that I was chosen to be the astronaut.

Interlude: Houston, we have a flood

Houston is not the nicest place in the world to stay. At least in the summer. It is at the latitude of Cairo and the heat is oppressive, but unlike Cairo, the humidity is also oppressive. The proximity of the Gulf of Mexico causes incessant rains. When we got there there were thunderstorms and lightning. Nevertheless, Ramon has been staying there for four years and will surely continue to stay there for many more months. What are you doing there for so long?
"In the current situation today at NASA, flying after four years is very fast, not very slow. Maybe in Israel it seems like a long time, but the time constants here are completely different. In the team with me, three friends are flying, which is their first flight from the course before. They fly after six years and from their course there are people who have not yet flown. So if we forget the constants of time for a moment, four times is fast today.
When an astronaut arrives after being selected, he begins a basic course where he learns for about a year and a half the shuttle and its systems on its moorings. including theoretical studies and simulators. The ferry is a complicated and complex vessel. It is built on redundancy. Electrical system There are several of these, so if one breaks down there are at least two more that work.
The connections between the systems are very, very complex, in addition, the possibility of the astronauts handling the shuttle in space is very, very high and complex. Much more complex than handling a plane, and I compare it to a fighter plane where you can do some operations but they don't go into the guts of the systems. We as astronauts can enter and this requires us to study the systems much more deeply. Everything is built on the fact that even though the flight itself has contact with the ground, and they help us, it is built on the fact that there will be no contact with the ground, that we will be able to do everything completely independently. It takes a year and a half.
After that, the astronauts enter the pool, a pool from which the candidates for the flight crews are selected. After a team is assembled for the flight, training for the flight itself begins. Learn everything related to the specific ferry, because there are small differences between the ferries. In addition, the team begins to train specifically for all the characteristics of the flight itself - for example, the experiments or the construction of the International Space Station. It takes over a year and sometimes even two and a half years. In this process you learn new things there that you did not learn in the basic stage. The study and preparation process is long and complex, the shuttle, if you can define it, is a sequence of many, many small details and that's why they also work according to books and not based on memory because you can't remember so many things, so it takes a long time.
By the way, in the case of flights to assemble the space station or to repair the Hubble Space Telescope, NASA built a huge pool, so big that it takes a month to fill it.
Part B of the interview

What is the most interesting thing about your training?

"The most interesting thing about training - it's really hard to say. The variety is so great. There were some interesting things. The most real part that simulates almost everything except that there is no gravity in space are five trainings we went through recently. On purpose they are planned for the last months. Where we take sections of the flight, literally days - up to 24 hours from the flight plan, and run it as it is done in space, in simulators, connected to the control center. The Israeli experiment also has a control center in Goddard and we are connected to it. And everything plays exactly as it does in space, except for the fact that we are on the ground.
NASA has a special plane that allows you to experience zero gravity for 20-25 seconds, 40 times during the maneuver that this plane does. You just float in the belly of the plane. It is empty of chairs and padded all around so that you don't get hit by the sides. And you hover there for 20-25 seconds each time. First time we did it just to get an impression. We did this one more time as part of our training to do short sections

Another interesting thing we went through as a team - more for team formation and team training in conditions quite similar to those we will be in on the ferry. This is survival training. They put us in the Rocky Mountains in Wyoming and we walked around there with 30 kilo backpacks on our backs and we were in mountains over ten thousand feet high. Not easy types. We were there something like ten days with a team of two guides who were with us. It was last summer and it remains an impressive experience for us. By the way, the conditions in the shuttle are similar to camping conditions or to the conditions of a trip in the field, so NASA recently decided to do this type of training.

What can you tell about a typical day on the space shuttle?

"A day flight program in space starts in the morning, they wake us up with wake-up music. Some kind of CD that an astronaut chooses. The shuttle's speakers play this music. By the way, we don't choose the music, but our spouses do. I don't even know what's in store for me. So that's how you wake up. As soon as you wake up you are thrown straight to work. There are some things we do about ourselves. We have to fill in a diary of how we slept at night and take samples of our saliva. These are the first things we do in the morning. Later there is a period of one hour called POST SLEEP. "

"We have an hour for recovery and things we do after sleep - this includes food, breakfast, they send us a fax upstairs with the updated agenda, usually there are changes, they send us an email on a printer we have upstairs and we go over the updated plan. We eat breakfast if there is time, all kinds of morning garden and then we get into the program. The work plan of each of us is different. Everyone has the experiments they need to perform."
There are many things that seem trivial and people ask what is so complicated....but once you are in a state of zero gravity things become not so simple. You are not in your natural environment. Let's take as an example. On earth if you open a bag and take what you need and close the bag if you want. If you don't want to, you leave it open.
With us in space you open a bag and if you don't pay attention then all the things fly out and start floating and you have to look for them. Even such a simple thing of taking something out of a bag requires attention, requires you to think first about what you want, open a small opening, put your hand in, take it out, you can't leave it, because it will run away. and close the bag. You must glue the bag itself to one of the sides because otherwise the bag itself will also start to rotate. Things are completely different than on Earth and therefore they also take a lot of time. Even from the experience of others, it usually takes a person two or three days to get used to this situation.
Food, eg drink. You can't drink like we drink here, but you have to drink in bags with a straw. The food itself is in bags that we put water back into and then if it is liquid you have to cut a small opening and eat it relatively close to your mouth so that it doesn't start to spread in the space.
In principle, we have completely normal toilets, but what helps things stay in the toilets is a low vacuum or a small suction that sucks the things and makes sure they stay there and don't float around with us.
What can you tell about the Madex experiment?

The Israeli experiment called MEIDEX - the Israeli-Middle Eastern dust experiment deals with small dust particles called dust aerosols, which rise from the Sahara desert in our case and also from China, and begin to float in the atmosphere with the winds, they rise above the Mediterranean Sea, above the Middle East. And also from the other side, over the Atlantic Ocean to Florida and Mexico. These particles affect the warming and cooling of the earth and the fall of rain and precipitation. The Israeli experiment came to try to understand the effect of these dust particles on these two things - warming and decreasing precipitation.

A special camera will be placed in the luggage compartment of the shuttle that takes pictures simultaneously in six wavelengths, six frequencies. Such a device has not flown in space to date. The camera will allow researchers to collect information from these dust particles in a maximum way. In addition, we have a computerized plane that will fly down into the dust storm that we will photograph from space and collect additional information from the atmosphere, from the dust storm. In addition, there will be ground stations that will collect more information about the dust storms. This is a complex experiment in terms of the combination of several collection factors that have to happen at the same time in order for us to be able to collect the information from that area and from that time. This is the uniqueness of the experiment, that the information is gathered from several mediums at the same time from the same place. I don't like to call it the "dust experiment" they will soon think I am wiping dust. We will call it the "Atmospheric Dust Particles Experiment."
In addition, there are other experiments that were conducted in Israel, we called them secondary, but at least one of them became important and main and aroused interest in an incredible way all over the world. It's an experiment called Sprites. This is a relatively new phenomenon that was discovered in the last ten years of lightning with special shapes, like spirits and demons, that actually rise from the tops of the clouds upwards into the atmosphere, to a height of 100 kilometers. Now we are trying to understand and investigate them and what they affect. The international cooperation is with ground stations that receive echoes of radio waves from these lightnings and are scattered all over the world. We have cooperation in this experiment with stations from Australia, Japan, China, Alaska, Antarctica, literally the whole world is showing interest in this. We also have secondary experiments, such as an experiment of oblique visibility from the atmosphere depending on the weather conditions. In some data, for example, there will be small islands that we know we are going to see shortly, and we will be asked to look out and see when exactly we see them. This will allow researchers to know about the oblique visibility through the atmosphere. This is something that is of great interest to both the Air Force and civilian entities that use remote sensing of the Earth, both from space and from airplanes. In total we have a main experiment and some other experiments that have joined. Some of them over time have become large and interesting.
You were used to being an independent pilot, and now you depend on teamwork. how does it work out

"My experience as a pilot requires me to work as a team. Pilots don't fly alone. Although they are often alone in the cockpit. Many times they are with one other person in the team. And if not, then he is with friends in the building. A very complex and complicated issue because things happen much faster there. The teamwork on the ferry is of a different nature, perhaps closer to the teamwork of transport planes or El Al planes for example, but working in a team is great, especially a father in this team.
You mentioned the staff, can you elaborate?I was lucky and we have a wonderful team of lovely people one by one. We have been together for two years, we are in the same office and we have other events outside the office. It's fun to work with a team, especially a team like this.
Our team consists of six Americans. The commander is Rick Hasband, a US Air Force man. He is a test pilot who flew the Phantom for many years. He has experience of one flight in space. I think he flew in 99'.The pilot who serves as the shuttle pilot and helps Rick is named Willie McCall. He is an A6 pilot from the Navy. He traveled the world, including in Israel while on aircraft carriers and four others serve as a flight specialist, although two of them are also pilots in the background. Mark Anderson is the Payload Commander and is basically responsible for all the shuttle experiments in our flight. He is a transport pilot who flew KC135 planes in the Air Force - refueling planes, and instructed T38 in their pilot course.
Dave Brown - Doctor of Medicine who, during his service in the Navy, took a pilot's course and is also a Navy pilot.
Laurel Clark is also a doctor - in the Navy and Marines. She is a doctor who dealt with the medicine of divers. And Casey, Kalpama Chandra in India is of Indian origin, a doctor of aeronautics who came to the US after completing her bachelor's degree in India and is now an American. Mark Anderson, Casey and Rick have already flown one space flight in the past.

The third part of the interview

What items do you take with you?

Each astronaut is given the opportunity to take ten things with him, which later after landing are given to the Argonnes or institutions. In addition, it is possible to take things to people we want to visit. Usually it's to family or friends, many times it's to our guides here.
As part of the things I decided to take to the organizations, one of the organizations I turned to was Yad Vashem. As the son of a Holocaust survivor and in addition, my revelations to organizations of Holocaust survivors here in the USA, and the meaning for them of an Israeli pilot and an Israeli astronaut flying into space. I turned to Vashem and offered them to take something symbolic. They gave me back several options. One of the options I chose was a picture drawn by a boy named Peter Ginz who was in the Triesenstadt camp. He organized with another group of boys there a lot of activities. They wrote a pamphlet while staying in the camp. He was the living spirit. He was a very talented guy. He drew pictures and also wrote. They wrote and passed from one to the other so they could read. One of his paintings was a drawing of what he imagined the Earth would look like from the Moon. It should be remembered that this is the forties of the last century. No one has ever dreamed of reaching the moon. I take it with me and it really symbolizes more than anything, first of all if you can call it modestly - the victory of the spirit over what happened in the Holocaust and it also symbolizes the continuity of Peter Ginz that I am able to take what he thought in his imagination into space. I'm sure if he were alive, he would want to be in the same place I would be. I take his imagination and his spirit with me and not only his, but that of everyone who went through this horrible experience of the Holocaust.
In addition to Lid Vashem, I take another nine things to other organizations. Of course I take the air force flag, the President's miracle, something from Tel Aviv University. I take maybe something that is a little modest and maybe it's worth talking about a t-shirt of the women in red organization that is very active in preventing road accidents. We have a difficult problem, not only in Israel, but in Israel there is a difficult problem that we are aware of, we have a tendency to suppress it but something needs to be done about this. I will do everything to raise awareness.
And I also take a flag of the Blich school in Ramat Chen. I was born in Ramat Chen. I was born there and grew up there and will probably also live there when we return to Israel, so I decided to take something from school.
What is more important, the experiment or the astronaut?

"The plan to fly an Israeli astronaut did not come separately. The idea was to fly an Israeli experiment in space with an Israeli astronaut. The emphasis was more on the experiment, not the astronaut. The chosen experiment also went through a long process. The idea was to cooperate in space between the space agency NASA in the USA and the Israeli space program in Israel.
A great deal of credit should be given to Avi Har Even, director of the Israel Space Agency who did all the negotiations and cooperation between the Israel Space Agency and NASA and is still active in the program today. And of course it was done as a pilot, as a pioneer between the two space agencies and between the scientists of NASA and Israel. NASA recognizes that Israel has a lot to offer. As a result of the experiment, even though we haven't flown yet, there is a current and future collaboration of scientists from NASA and Israel. We don't see it as a one-time thing, but as a continuation. We believe that there will be many Israeli experiments that will fly on the space station. This is the beginning of a fruitful collaboration, I hope.

Who did you invite to the launch?
"I invited my whole family and all my close friends to the launch. Those who can will come and those who can't will wait. I'm sure his heart and thoughts will be with me. He will miss a very special event. The launch is a very exciting and emotional event. Anyone who has seen it knows it. A lot of my friends are from the Air Force. Some are still active and some have already been released. For example, there are many friends from my pilot course who will come. The pilot course has a bunch of wonderful friends who keep in touch to this day and they intend to come.

Ezer Weizman as president showed an interest in flying. You ordered it for launch. What do you have to say to him?

I want to tell Ezer that I was very excited to hear your words. I bet you are dying to come to the launch. When you tell me that you're dying to shake my hand as the first astronaut, I'm short of even comparing to the things you've done for the Air Force, for the country, so the honor will be mostly mine to shake your hand. The respect will be more mutual.
Be sure that I will do everything I know, what I can. I was educated on the knees of your legacy.”
I do the best I can. As Ezer said - to do the task. Later on I incorporated small things in the flight that are very significant to the people of Israel and the Jewish people in all its diversity. For example, I asked Nasa for kosher food. I am not religious myself but I am aware of the importance of this to many people. Right here. I do Kiddush every Friday and we do Shabbat dinner and Shabbat reception.

Maybe something that is no longer relevant, but I will tell it here. At the end of May there was a discussion in the NASA management regarding the date of the flight. I picked up the phones to my commander, Rick, and said that Tisha B'av is a very special day, a day of mourning. NASA usually launches shuttles on Thursdays and they moved the date to Friday. As mentioned in the meantime, the mission was postponed for six months to January 2003, but it is important to emphasize how aware NASA is of the peoples and not only the Jewish people but all the peoples that hang around here.

What is it like to represent Israel?

The whole issue of the representativeness of Israel developed for me during the course of the training program here. I wasn't aware of it in the first part that I was chosen to be an astronaut but as time went by and as time goes by I understand more what it means to many, many people.
I will do the best I can. First of all, and this is exactly as Ezer said: to carry out the task properly. First of all and nothing is more important than that. I combined small things in the flight which are very significant I think for the people of Israel and the Jewish people in all its varieties and rainbows. For example, I asked NASA for kosher food. I am not religious myself, but I am aware of the importance of this thing to many, many people. Even in Israel and perhaps much more, precisely here, in the Diaspora, of preserving tradition and Judaism. And even though I'm not a religious person, I try to keep tradition especially here. I do Kiddush every Friday, and we do Shabbat dinner and Shabbat reception, we celebrate all the holidays. I asked for kosher food and I got it. NASA really did a lot in the air to provide me with kosher food. It's very nice of them.
The feeling is strange, to go from a situation where your face is not seen and no one knows what you are doing, to a situation where you are exposed, also in the media and not only you but also your family members. It's a big change. But I think that maybe the privilege that was given to me and thanks to it I get through it quite easily, is that we are doing something positive and I am happy to share it with all the people of Israel through the media.
What will you do after you land?

After landing we are expected to have a period of a month, a month and a half of continued work. We have experiments that start before the flight, continue during the flight and continue after the flight. We have about a month and a half to continue the experiments we will do on the shuttle after the flight and investigations of the flight. After that I return to Israel. I'm still in the Air Force, and after that we'll see. As I explained before, I am focused on the flight and not so much concerned with what will happen next.
Another word about being a blue-and-white astronaut. I am indeed the first astronaut, but Israel has a very ambitious and very very proud space program. Although it is unmanned, Israel is one of only eight countries in the world that can launch their own satellites made of blue and white, and only recently the Ofek 5 satellite was launched. He said that this is no less a small achievement, and perhaps even an important rower (from the launch of the astronaut, A.B. ) for the space industry in Israel than the launch of an Israeli astronaut with all its meaning.
Besides the main experiment, will MEIDEX conduct additional experiments?

We have an experiment called STARS. It's a pack of six little experiments in two cases. Of these, one of the experiments comes from Israel, from Ort School in Kiryat Motzkin. The students from Kiryat Motzkin found that if you mix two materials with each other, you get crystals that grow upwards like pipes. The question they ask and want to investigate is whether the growth of the crystals upwards is a result of gravity. They perform the same experiment in space and want to see in which direction they will grow in space. Another little anecdote. They use two materials (we grow two crystals there), the color of both materials, when the crystals grow will be blue and white.

We have some experiments on bone cells. When a person goes up into space, he loses on average between one percent and three percent of his bone mass every month he was in space. This is a big problem when planning long flights, it is also the same phenomenon that occurs during the disease of osteoporosis. It is a disease that we all suffer from mainly women but also men on the planet. The cost of treating people with osteoprosis in the US alone per year exceeds 40 billion dollars. It is understandable that there is a great interest in finding a solution to this disease. The reason it is done in space is because in space the bone mass is accelerated.
If the scientists find a solution, it will also be possible to check if the solution works because of the accelerated growth of the phenomenon.
We have studies by researchers from the USA and Canada that deal with this issue and we hope to also have an Israeli experiment by Prof. Gazit from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and his group, but for now it has not been confirmed yet.

What is it like to represent Israel?

I am very happy for the privilege given to me. I didn't win it by my own merits, but I was in the right place at the right time, but a right given to me to represent Israel. I'm glad I was given the opportunity to raise morale. It is important for the people of Israel, even in such difficult times, to work and act for the future. I think that what I am doing, facing the future with a lot of vision, the issue of opening the space both for industries in Israel and for science in Israel is for the sake of the future. Investments in space are increasing exponentially. Therefore it is the dark field in the future.

Will you help Israeli companies upload experiments to the International Space Station?I will do everything in my power to help any enterprise, researcher interested in the field. Putting experiments into space is an order of magnitude of years, sometimes more than ten years, but I will help.

I have no doubt that it will happen, it will not happen tomorrow morning nor in another five or ten years, but let's look back for a moment. We are in 2002. Next year will mark the centenary of the first flight of a plane. Only a hundred years and today we fly everywhere everywhere without batting an eyelid. I have no doubt that space flight will be the property of many people. It might be another fifty years, maybe another hundred years, but it will happen. My kids might be able to buy a ticket and fly.

What is your relationship to religion?

I'm not going to keep Shabbat. I am a secular person, I greatly respect the religious and that is why I make every effort to do what is possible in this matter. The subject of Shabbat came up by chance in my conversation with two rabbis. I never hesitated over the question of how to keep Shabbat. We work in space on Houston time. I will make an effort to make a symbolic Kiddush on Friday, at least on one of the Fridays that I will be in space.

Who will be waiting for you on your return?

The family. With them I am ready to walk through fire and water.