Now there is an academic Gushpanka fear: the State of Israel is on its way to becoming a religious state, in a way that could endanger its continued existence, so warns Prof. Arnon Sofer, head of the Chaikin Department of Geostrategy at the University of Haifa in a new study "Israel 2010-2030, on the way to a religious state".
This study, which is a continuation of Prof. Sofer's previous study "Israel 2007-2020, on demography and density", describes demographic processes that Israeli society is undergoing, focusing on the natural increase in the ultra-orthodox, religious, secular and Arab sectors and the consequences of these processes.
The findings show that in 2030 there will be a majority of the religious population in Israel, which may lead to one of the following three results: the secular majority succeeds in establishing a secular coalition and carrying out a "secular revolution" in all areas; If this does not succeed, we are expected to witness a country that will include a growing religious and ultra-Orthodox society, growing poverty and a secular minority that will have to come to terms with a religious lifestyle and religious world orders. If the religious leadership pushes the people of Israel to annex the State of Israel, the third alternative will take place and in Prof. Sofer's view, the most disturbing of all: "the continued weakening of democracy in the face of anti-democratic forces, a Knesset that will not function, and the rise of anarchy that has become normative," noted Prof. Sofer.
According to Prof. Sofer, how will we arrive at the second and third alternatives? According to him, in 2030 the number of ultra-Orthodox in Israel will reach more than one million people, based on the annual average of the natural increase among the ultra-Orthodox, which is about 6-7% per year. According to him, the natural proliferation of ultra-Orthodox families will mean that the percentage of ultra-Orthodox among the young population will be even greater. These numbers will bring a load and a heavy burden on the state institutions that will completely change the image of Israeli society. According to him, such a significant increase in this population will make the ultra-orthodox sector, many of whose children do not take an active part in the labor market, a burden on the rest of the population that supports them. "As the ultra-Orthodox sector grows, so do the economic gaps between the ultra-Orthodox population and the rest of the population, and thus increasing amounts of transfer payments are required in order to reduce these gaps. The differential participation in the labor force not only creates a situation of complete dependence on the breadwinner population, but also a situation of inequality that is only growing, dissatisfaction, grumbling, feelings of suffocation among the taxpayers and stereotyping of the dependent population," he said.
Another process pointed out by Prof. Sofer, which will occur following the increase in the ultra-orthodox and religious population, is the strengthening of the electoral power of the ultra-orthodox and religious parties. "The public agenda, the public space and the characteristics of culture may all be in the spirit of the ultra-orthodox and religious world. "The education will become a Torah education, the trial will be in the spirit of Halacha, the media will undergo a revolution when many of the contents it broadcasts today will disappear," he noted. These processes will lead to an increased decrease of secular residents from the country - which will further deteriorate the quality of life.
According to Prof. Sofer, in order to avoid this grim situation, it is necessary to require the introduction of democratic and western content to all education systems in the country, something that will prevent the realization of the most extreme alternative of all. "If the decision-makers do not come to their senses, the Zionist vision will then reach its tragic end and the people of Israel will once again go into exile, again facing anti-Semitism and assimilation," Prof. Sofer concluded.
232 תגובות
Regarding some of the commenters who claim a return trend in the question, a mistake is in your hands, the trend is opposite to your wish.
A second thing for all the modern Greeks here, who mock the Torah of Israel, after all, without faith in the Torah of Israel and the heritage of Israel
After all, you are usurpers of Arab lands and you have no right to exist here in the Land of Israel, since the connection of the people of Israel to the Land of Israel is not due to the Torah of Israel.
That's why I think that one of the "concerns" about a mass decline of seculars from the country as a result of Halacha laws in a blessed country, because in any case seculars have no real right or connection to the Land of Israel, they have their place in the country they are trying to imitate in a poor way, which is America. good flight!
In order to know how to relate to Sofer's predictions, I would be happy to know whether, in his past predictions, he anticipated the decrease in the natural population among the Arabs? Did you watch the immigration of Jews from the Soviet Union that changed the demographics of the country? Did you foresee the beginning of the ultra-orthodox mobilization to the IDF? Did he expect that ultra-Orthodox women went out in increasing numbers and went to work?
If he didn't watch, maybe even now he doesn't watch things that will happen and change the map?
Not everything in life is math and it is not enough to put numbers and assume that everything that exists today will continue. Without the immigration from the Soviet Union, there may already have been a religious majority but....
This study does not take into account change in processes. Such as, for example, a drop in birth rate, repeating a question, etc. The future is not linear. Just as the Arabs of Israel went through a process of reducing birthrates and just as a process of repeating the question began, so more surprises are expected.. There is no prophet in his forest.
Birth control in Israel.
We rely on a writer more than on other researchers, not this time, the religious population is not considered for the purposes of this matter (working, earning a living, serving in the army, more than others) the ultra-Orthodox for the most part, is getting more and more accepting of the State of Israel, goes out more to earn a living, speaks more Hebrew, right There are also other islands, but the trend is clear.
A much more acute problem is with the Bedouins in the Negev and the Arab population, larger parts of which do not accept the existence of the state and its laws.
Everything with God's help, as in the Holocaust, so in the erasure of the state. hallelujah.
Discovery? And the writing has been on the wall for so many years, and the bias is as clear as snow. What's new here?
In the absence of separation between religion and the state, considering the internal plurality, the political participation and involvement of religious people, among them not necessarily Zionists, there is no doubt that this is a question of time, and not long. The only question is who will win the race of time and be first thanks to the internal plurality: religious or Arabs.
Peace on Israel!
Ilana, if you were taught core studies, it would be very easy for me to answer questions about your country.
But without core studies, any conversation with you is a disaster to begin with.
Harbana Harbana as the scriptures say.
Kharbana from Daurita and Kharbana from Darbanan.
Ilana, why hate?
Do the women work? The men should not?
And what about the army?
And an academy?
And service of a few months is not considered army.
And the Seder meetings are not considered an army.
And therefore he suggests to the Arabs to sit back and wait for 2030, and pick a poor and weak country with a functioning army, because God will protect the people of Israel.
The leftists will do everything to present Jews in a negative way. If there were no religious people here - then there would already be a majority of Arabs here - is this what the enlightened professor wants?
Why this hatred? Why say that if there is an ultra-orthodox majority, then we will go to the diaspora - after all, exactly the opposite - if the number of Jews here does not increase quickly - then we will go to the diaspora. And why present the religious as leeches - I'm sure that if we compare one to the other - then more children of someone religious serve in the Ba'a as vassals than the children of the "enlightened" professor. Why always say that they do not contribute to the labor market, when almost every ultra-Orthodox woman works? Why does it not bother the "enlightened" professor that the majority of Israeli Arabs own spacious private homes while they receive - often fraudulently - funds from social security - invent disabilities and literally "live" on social security - do not pay property taxes, school, scouts, kindergartens, taxes And what's more, gardens and everything we finance them with tax money? Precisely because of "enlightened people" as if our country might no longer exist - because we are appointing the Arabs here and the Palestinians and also in Gaza
From 2011 until today, they respond to tilapia. In the meantime, we see that there is indeed a right-wing majority in the country. A more religious tendency..indeed in this case he is indeed right..
fire
What you said is cheap demagoguery bordering on anti-Semitism. Anyone can easily check the child allowance rate and see that it is from 150 to 190 NIS per month per child.
And the ones who bring us to this sad situation are our leaders, the "child rights" fighters and the like who consciously encourage high birth rates beyond any reasonable rate in the ultra-Orthodox sector... a significant part through child allowances that increase with the number of children per family at a huge rate.
It says it all:
http://www.cbs.gov.il/reader/shnaton/templ_shnaton.html?num_tab=st08_10&CYear=2015
(In XNUMX, about half of the Jewish students in the country study in religious education, the charts here show the trend, and from this it is easy to understand what will happen in the near future)
Isn't this the same one who passionately claimed that in the year 2000 the Jews will be a minority in the State of Israel?
As a matter of fact, it is based on past trends, in order to take into account enormous demographic changes among the ultra-Orthodox (more educated women who go out to work = fewer children per woman).
The dichotomous division into 'religious' and 'secular', while ignoring the breadth of the spectrum in which people define themselves.
He also ignores the sharp demographic growth that has taken place among the secular, as well as the exit processes of many ultra-Orthodox and national religious people.
Maybe you can't get Raphael out of the mud, but how easy it is to get the mud out of Raphael...
Miracles
Go find your friends
Raphael
Maybe I didn't understand - you claim that a woman who wants to testify, then she will be allowed?
Raphael
This is also a known phenomenon among those who are willing to sacrifice their lives in defense of the lives of people who hate people like you.
Miracles
The phenomenon of vomiting when reading the words of the Torah is very well known among Israel haters.
Raphael
By the way - it says there that she cannot testify at will.
Raphael
Read. I threw up.
Miracles
Yes. See details here:
http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=3589
Raphael
If a woman wants to testify - will she be allowed?
Miracles
You ask why the word "invalid" is used, which in your opinion implies inferiority, right?
Raphael
Perhaps you will answer a simple question: why is a woman "disqualified from testifying" and not "resolved from testifying"?
After that we will talk about your term "Shikli flaw"...
Can I get an answer?
Miracles
So what do you offer? That you interpret it as you wish and I will say Amen?
Raphael
I realised. So I will present you a study and you will interpret it as you wish?
Miracles When did I say that scientific research is not acceptable to me? Research results must be separated from the interpretation given to it by all kinds of interested parties.
Raphael
What is more worrying than the discrimination you exhibit is your opacity to the situation.
You are amazingly hypocritical - suddenly scientific research is acceptable??? So great - if I bring you a study that shows what we claim - what will your reaction be? Thank you for making it?
k
Raphael is really, really not an extreme religious person. I heard from him exactly what I always hear from every religious person with whom I talk about these issues.
"We"... the ultra-orthodox men... who say blessedly I didn't smoke a woman... and who invent lame excuses to cover up the ugliness in order to protect another dose of disgusting chauvinism produced by the Jewish religion.
As I have been exposed in my life to more than religion and especially to the way of thinking of religious extremists, and let it be clear that Raphael is a religious extremist, I thank some good people and a lot of luck that I was not captured by religion. My heart goes out to those who didn't get it.
Shmulik
This euphemism only depresses you. We are happy and well.
Raphael,
Of course there is a reason to quibble. We do not hold that because women give birth they have additional "other roles".
By the way, other roles is a depressing euphemism for the existing reality in which the woman is a pregnancy machine, a huge part of her role is to help the man to fulfill mitzvot. I don't think I said anything you can argue with?
Regarding your question about the patients of the secular society: sad, unfortunate, requires treatment but by no means as terrible as life under the religious dictatorship. I think I read that rape exists in religious society just like it exists in secular society but it doesn't matter. I will not look for studies and you have not substantiated what you claimed mainly belongs to the secular society.
The essence of secularism is the value of equality and the essence of religion is role according to sex.
parable
מ
K.
In my private and subjective opinion, everyone would like to stay as they are. And this is for all the men and women in the world, not only for the religious but also
Friends
There is no point in arguing. There are different roles for each gender. We, both men and women get it. I do not accept your conclusion about discrimination. If you have research evidence that this is not the case, then present them. Again - I'm talking about research evidence, not about your personal opinion. Meanwhile, phenomena such as trafficking in women, prostitution, sexual exploitation, sexual abuse, etc. are phenomena that mainly belong to the secular society.
Raphael,
What do you think will be, more or less in percentage terms, the results of an experiment in which ultra-Orthodox men and women answer an anonymous questionnaire with a question in the following style:
Suppose that in a few years an angel of God will inform you that you are destined to be reborn into this world when you are given a choice as to your gender. It must be emphasized that you will be given free choice and that no memory of the previous life will be given up. Which of the options would suit you the most: 1) To remain in the same species as it is today. 2) to be reborn in the other sex.
Raphael
"...everyone has a different role"?? Do you understand the meaning of what you wrote? Religion requires a role according to gender?? Is this egalitarian in your eyes?
And Shmulik reminded me of oblivion - why is a woman "disqualified from testifying" and not "exempt from testifying"? Maybe a mistake in the sources?
Raphael,
Kudos to those who respect their parents (if they deserve respect) but are there any cases of non-religious people who respect their parents? come on.
By the way, Maimonides also cannot contradict the Mishna unless he brings new information and he does not. In marriage, the son should respect his father more than his mother, let's not talk about the fact that in any case the mother does what the husband wants
Raphael,
I don't have any selective reading: in religion especially, the usual situation is marriage and it is clear that a decision is only required when there is a dispute, but when it exists, the father wins. This is unequivocal proof of fundamental discrimination that exists in the Jewish religion. I don't see how you can argue about that. Written, black on white. What about a woman ineligible to testify?
In any case, you said everything: each gender has a different role and the role of the woman is to serve the husband.
I don't know what I would do. I don't have a ready answer because it depends on the circumstances.
You are wrong and you can and should blame religion and probably evolution as well. Discrimination is the result of generations upon generations of education that is very difficult to change, which is always an education that women are inferior. Religion plays a huge part in this.
Shmulik
You should also read the link you posted about how Rabbi Tarpon, who was Tana, respected his mother. Do you know someone who respects their mother like that? :
It is told in the Jerusalem Talmud: Rabbi Tarpon's mother went down for a walk in the hay on Shabbat and her kordaikin stopped, and Rabbi Tarpon went and put his two hands under her hooves and would walk on them until she reached her bed. Once sages came to visit him, she said to them: "Pray for Tarpon my son that he treats me with more respect than I deserve." I will say to her: "What is he a slave to you?" And giving them a fact. I will say to her: "Even if he does this a thousand times, he still hasn't reached half the honor that the Torah said."
Shmulik
You have selective reading. If you read again, you will see that according to the Torah they are equal in everything, and so it was ruled by Rambam. The Mishnah talks about the ruling of the sages in the event that there is a *conflict* between their honor and their desires and all this only if they are married, but if they are divorced there is no difference even then. By the way, what would you do if your father told you one thing and your mother the opposite? Who would you listen to?
Regarding the discrimination. There is nothing funnier than accusing religion of discriminating against secular men against secular women.
As to why research is important. Because if the women and men in the religious society understand that everyone has a different role and they accept it, then it doesn't matter what you say - there is no discrimination here and your assertion that there is one or another syndrome here - simply doesn't change anything. That is why it is important to investigate whether the women feel discriminated against or not.
Raphael,
If it was not understood, then in my previous post I demonstrated how the Halacha asks the son to respect the father more than the mother. This is categorical discrimination. Every woman is educated from the age of zero to this value and knows that she is second place. If she doesn't feel bad about it, she has Helsinki syndrome
Raphael,
strange.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9B%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%93_%D7%90%D7%91_%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9D
The Mishna (Tractate of Cuts XNUMX:XNUMX) establishes an order of priorities between the parents, in terms of their status in the family, in the event of a conflict between their honor and their wishes. According to the mishna, the status of the father precedes the status of the mother and his honor precedes her honor:
You think otherwise, fine.
I didn't understand why I need to bring studies? In a religion there is no equality between the sexes which inevitably creates inequality in opportunities? come on.
Regarding your very, very interesting question, the answer is religion and capitalism, which allowed white men to dominate every political system and therefore always be at the top of the pyramid. Specifically, to our dismay, not only religious women are discriminated against but also non-religious women. If religious women are really discriminated against even more compared to ordinary women (studies will come to show this), I would say that it could be for many reasons such as gaps in knowledge due to education without core studies, multiple pregnancies (which makes it less attractive to employers) and so on
Shmulik
Regarding the fire, see the last answer I gave to Nisim.
Regarding discrimination. Everything you said is just talk. If you have proof, I would appreciate it in the form of studies. I would love to hear it.
Now tell me, why despite all the curiosity and skepticism etc. that are taught in the core subjects are the secular women still discriminated against in the secular society? I did not see that the core studies helped you particularly in this section.
Raphael,
Ben and his two married parents live in the house. There is a fire. The son can save his father or his mother but not both. Who is he supposed to save?
To claim that religious women do not feel discriminated against in a religious society is laughable. First of all, many do feel this way, but in general they are being educated into a way of thinking that will continue to maintain the religious society. That is, to feel not to feel discriminated against. It's called the Helsinki syndrome.
This is why feminism is so destructive to a religious society: it crumbles society from within. Feminism can only come through education for equality or if you want, liberalism. The minimum required for this is to require all educational institutions to teach skepticism, curiosity, and asking questions. This is why the religious oppose the education of the core subjects because they do encourage (despite their minimality) skepticism and curiosity which will inevitably lead to the recognition that there should be absolute equality in rights between the sexes
* Maya
Raphael
good answer. For some reason, I got a different answer from many ultra-Orthodox I asked.
I agree with you from Iguodala. The truth is that you don't even have to test.
Miracles
The one I have a better chance of saving.
Raphael
I once heard Amnon Yitzhak explain his position on the subject.
I would appreciate an answer from you.
And certainly, either you are showing your own ignorance about Jewish matters, or you are a blabbermouth. I tend to think it's both
Raphael, do you mean that when I have nothing to say I will 'shut up' like you?
ארי
If you have nothing to say then it's better to keep quiet
* That your ignorance is also about Judaism
Raphael, you probably have brokenness, also related to Judaism
Miracles
Tell me, where do you wink these questions from? What makes you think that I would prefer to save the man, other than complete ignorance in everything to do with Judaism?
Raphael
A woman and a man are drowning in the sea, who do you save first?
Nissim calm down.
Maya,
You and the writer of this article and a large part of the commenters use intimidation methods that have no basis. You know very well that no one is telling you not to eat chametz on Pesach or on Shabbat. But there is what is called the status quo, because there is nothing to do, if you live together everyone has to give up a little (everyone who is married knows this). And the reality shows exactly the opposite of what you say, that is, all the violations of the sestos quo until now have been to the detriment of the religious. If you want to be respected and let you live the way you want - then you will also respect the other side.
Miracles
1. Your statement that I discriminate against women is worth zero. If you want us to treat you then you have to prove it. If you see a study that shows that religious women feel discriminated against by the religious society then we will start talking. But if you say that the ultra-Orthodox women who work are discriminated against by the secular society because of their poor salaries, then I will agree with you because this is a well-known fact. Even if you say that the secular women are discriminated against by the secular society that sees them as a sexual object only (in advertisements and sales promotions mainly) then I will agree with you here as well.
2. A deaf person who has a hearing defect only and knows how to speak, of course, has no mental defect and is obligated to observe the mitzvot.
Raphael,
To be honest, I haven't read all the comments here and I don't know which comments you were referring to. I don't know if I would have reacted to them or not if I had seen them. But yes, the ultra-Orthodox culture can bring a blow to the country assuming that they will continue to hold the views (or at least that their leaders will continue to hold the views) that if I want to live in this country there are things that I am not free to do such as travel on Shabbat, eat chametz on Passover, eat on Yom Kippur or similar things. The increase of the ultra-Orthodox population, which is led by people who see fit to impose such things on me and prevent me from being a free person, will definitely cause the destruction of the country as far as I'm concerned - it will definitely be a country in which I will not be able to live anymore and it will be a great shame for me. I have no problem in principle with the ultra-orthodox population culture if these specific opinions change or become somehow irrelevant. The only problem I have with this is of course the problem I have with all high culture and that is the explosion of the global population and the harmful effect that man has on the world, but this is completely not specific to the ultra-Orthodox and is true of all disproportionate and irresponsible culture.
privileged,
My ancestors and mothers (is that how you write it?) were, I suppose, in a similar distribution to people today. Some were smart and wise and decent people and some were stupid and pretty horrible people. Is it worth referring to the knowledge and insights they had? Very worthwhile. Why not learn from what others have already learned? Should the things they say be taken for granted and without any criticism? definitely not. Just as we must learn the insights of Aristotle, Galileo or Newton and they are important and things we do today are based on them, still none of them are taken for granted and they are all tested again and again against the reality we learn more and more about over time. I see no reason to treat the insights of the fathers and mothers of Judaism (which I assume you referred to) in a different way.
Raphael
As usual, when you are confronted with reality and have to stand behind your words, it turns out that there is no content behind the words you send people here and the only tool at your disposal is ignoring. It's amazing how unsurprised I was.
Raphael
You discriminate against women, not out of love for them. You admit it and deny it…. I wonder what will happen to an ultra-Orthodox woman who dares to open her mouth...
Tell me - does the deaf person have a shichli defect? Or can a deaf learner like any other child? I did not understand you…
Wd
What feigned innocence! Really cool….
Miracles
What it reminds you of is not interesting. I don't know any religious woman who complains about it. And if it really bothers her then she will find a reform community and join it.
Why is it important why I'm glad not to be a woman? What do you want to prove from here?
As for children born with a mental defect that prevents them from understanding the meaning of the mitzvah and the duties imposed on them - they are exempt from the mitzvah. It is impossible to oblige them with mitzvahs if they are unable to understand their meaning. That doesn't mean you can't throw them a Bar Mitzvah party at age 13 and make them happy.
Raphael
Where exactly in this article did you see a call to transfer/leave/deport any religious group to Berlin or anywhere else in the world?
Where have you seen comments calling for boycotting the ultra-Orthodox?
People's treatment of the proliferation of the ultra-Orthodox as a blow that will bring destruction to the country stems not from something against the ultra-Orthodox, but from the problematic nature of the state's economic conduct vis-à-vis and with this sector, which is not sustainable if their percentage in the public increases beyond some threshold (some would say that this threshold has already been crossed), and that this situation will lead to collapse Economically, and from the fact that this public holds many opinions that do not contribute to the existence of an egalitarian democratic state with individual freedom (are you able to understand why this would be considered the destruction of the state for certain people?).
Raphael
"Women's help" ... reminds me of the black benches on buses from my childhood. Why are you glad you're not a woman?
Regarding my grandfather - I was told by an ultra-Orthodox person that a "defective" child does not do a Bar Mitzvah. was he wrong
Miracles
Yes, I say blessed that I did not have a wife, so what does that mean?
That I won't let a woman enter a synagogue? nonsense. Women have women's help.
Regarding your grandfather - he is indeed righteous. May you be like him.
Raphael
You say every morning "I'm glad I didn't smoke a wife", don't you? You will not let a woman enter a synagogue.
I have a question - my grandfather, for several decades, would teach deaf children to say the Haftar for Bar Mitzvah. What do you say about that ?
Well, I don't know where to start. If I have to answer everyone it will take me more time. So I will selectively answer what I find appropriate to respond to at this point.
K.
I never claimed that anyone who is Jewish according to Halacha is not considered a Jew in my eyes. As usual you get confused and imagine and then blame me. The only one I considered his non-Jewishness is WD and that's because he really isn't Jewish. He said this many times.
Miracles
You are a liar (nothing new about that). I never said that I hate secularists/women/gays of any kind.
Maya
Why didn't you come out against comments that call for boycotting the ultra-Orthodox and that treat the proliferation of ultra-Orthodox like some blow that will bring destruction to the country? Or as Guy defines it - a Greek tragedy?
K.
Aknai's oven is a story with a different message.
I'm not calling you to be interested in Judaism, who am I? But your forefathers and mothers were wise sages and also decent people. Judaism doesn't have the stubble you are forced to think it has, because of people who, as you describe, came to intellectually pollute the site.
Have a good week everyone…
Maya,
If I'm not mistaken, only recently Raphael expressed himself in an unambiguous way, when he discredited the Jews of commenters, I don't remember at the moment if he wrote this about a particular commenter or as a general statement, and claimed that they were not real Jews when there was no reason to think that they were are not Jews according to the definition you mentioned. This will not be the first or the second time that Raphael lies. In any case, Raphael cannot have a free opinion because by definition he is bound to what his rabbis instruct him to think, and as we know, it is not God who determines what the truth is but the rabbis. Even if God in His own honor will rebuke the rabbis for their wrong interpretation, the rabbis defined that their opinion would be superior and thus ennobled themselves above God ("Achnai's Furnace", Baba Metzia net XNUMX), the meaning is that when the need arises, every "divine" commandment and every "principle" in the faith of the ultra-Orthodox It can be reinterpreted to the point of reversing its meaning, and all that is required for this is the agreement of a handful of "great" rabbis. The ultra-orthodox are an example of religious people who do not have God.
Maya
This phenomenon called Raphael has a name. Taliban with caps and headscarves. Don't be surprised if tomorrow they also have weapons. Lucky for us they aren't shooting yet.
K.
In the past, Raphael was asked to define what a Jew is. According to the definition he gave at the time, anyone who has a chain of Jewish mothers (even if the first one has already married someone who is not Jewish, has stopped observing mitzvot, etc. and has generally forgotten that she is Jewish, and of course this is in the 16th generation and does not know at all about any ties she has to this nation) he is Jewish. From this point of view, if I understood him, you and I are definitely defined as Jewish (and there is a good chance that another very high percentage of the world's population, which Raphael is not at all aware of). The problem with Judaism is that as a missionary and aggressive religion (because if it wasn't, it wouldn't hold the world) there is only one way to belong (and it is not relevant that only within the Orthodox current that makes our lives bitter in Israel there are as many ways as there are people). Since this is so, and since of course Raphael knows better than you and me what is right for us, his real goal is not that we fly out of the country to cleanse it of secularists, but that we find the only true answer within the country. Of course, we insist not to do this (we haven't seen the light yet, don't worry, when the Messiah comes, this will also happen) and then in the heat of the debate they send us to Berlin (either to become Christians or to convert to Islam because there are exactly 3 religions in the world and always have been, there is no person without a religion, therefore if we Don't want to be Jewish properly, these are the only two options we have left.)
My reluctance to leave the country where I was born and grew up and where all my family and all my social connections are, therefore my desire to fight for it and help it remain a country where free people can live is incomprehensible. I assume that this is due to my messed up world of values which necessarily means that a country that is not completely closed on Shabbat and in which it is forbidden to study anything except Jewish studies (and these are only two examples) will be a promiscuous country where everyone does what all secular people do all day long, i.e. drugs and other things that if I will write that my comment will probably be censored.
Maya,
Note that Raphael wrote that he does not want to kick Jews out of here... just remember that from his point of view (and from the point of view of other members of idolatrous cults like him who have long since forgotten what Judaism is) you and I and in fact all the seculars and even religious people from other sects, are not considered real Jews at all. At least some of these religious fanatics have enough integrity to say what they really want (a halachic state) where there is no place for secularists, for western education and certainly not for science.
Look at who else in the world had/has such ambitions and where it led and see what will happen here if we just let it happen. It is important to me that Israel continues to be a free country where religious people, of all religions, can live alongside secular people, where everyone has equal rights but also obligations - such as a basic education that will enable employment so that they are not predestined in an almost irreversible way to become an economic burden, and of course military/national service duty , there is no reason why only certain citizens will give their best years for the common good (not necessarily in the army) and others will simply be exempt. But Raphael will never agree to this, here for some reason his vision of symmetry fails for some reason.
Raphael
I don't know where to start... You don't want to kick any Jews out of here (thanks, by the way) but you bothered to write to Guy who asked to establish a secular district: "There is such a district in Berlin." Maybe the problem is in my reading comprehension.
I switched between religious and secular in my response and I didn't understand what you wanted. You say you want to live in a country that suits your needs (the religious ones, I guess) and you live in a country that allows it to such an extent that even I, who am not interested in such a lifestyle, have to cooperate with the matter. So I don't really understand what you are complaining about. Does anyone in this country prevent you from observing mitzvot? To study Torah? What do you feel is being prevented from you in the country exactly, apart from the fact that there are other people who brazenly want to live their lives in a way that suits them? And when they insist on doing it in the State of Israel, the religious on duty immediately comes to tell them that if that's the way they want to live, there are other countries they can live in. In my life I have never heard a secular person say to a religious person: "Well, if you want to observe mitzvot there are many other countries you can go to." Farewell.” Note that what bothers you in the country is not that they don't let you keep mitzvot, but that they let other people who are not interested in it not keep it (for now). Do you understand the difference?
Raphael,
1. Are you in favor of a Halacha state? If so,
2. Will there be a place in a Halacha state for a secular homosexual Jew who eats shrimp on Shabbat? (Alternatively, will Maya be able to keep her natural hair and go swimming in the sea without being wrapped in a sheet?)
do not worry. Arnon Sofer's apocalyptic predictions were falsified one by one. He had such predictions regarding the number of Arabs who would live in Israel as early as 2000, and that the Arabs would become the majority by 2030 and all. Luckily for us, all these predictions were false.
Raphael
The one who is anti-Semitism is you, and you are very open about it. Your hatred of people different from you is no secret - gays, seculars, women.
Maya
Good question. I'm glad my comment bothered you. I don't want to kick any Jew out of here. Now take your response and just switch between secular and religious and see what you get.
Now a point for thought - why didn't you react in exactly the same way to this article and a lot of the anti-religious (almost anti-Semitic) comments made here?
Raphael
In the 50s, the state's case was a man named Dr. Nebentzel. Religiously, he belonged to the Israel Society. Did that make him a less good Jew than you? Who was the Minister of the Interior for years Dr. Yosef Borg was Dr. Yosef Borg was a member of the Federal Security Service was a less good Jew than you? Rabbi Adin Steinzaltz, a man who repented at the age of 12 from Tel Idshim, was a man who you translated the entire Talmud into today's Hebrew a less good Jew than you? Was Isaiah Leibovitz a less good Jew than you? Yehoshua Hankin and A.D. Gordon, one of the founders of the country, were Jews less good than you? So come back a request to Haider, it's time for you to learn some wisdom. Even a whiner wouldn't accept you. Your ignorance and arrogance reaches up to the nose of the God you hold so dear.
Raphael,
Why is this always the solution? Why is my desire to live in a normal country that will also suit the needs of a citizen who was born and raised in the country and who is interested in a secular lifestyle and it is very important for her to live in a democratic country immediately followed by the response of: "Then fly away" from religious people. How did the State of Israel become the country that most persecutes Jews (if they are not Orthodox in a very specific stream) in the entire Western world?
ravine
There is such a district in Berlin. cheap there. Literally.
And the secular parties, instead of uniting to create a proper state, are busy with their eternal wars.
Martz will sit with the Likud? impossible.
Like a window with a torch? No! He is busy with economic affairs.
Will Bibi get rid of the ultra-Orthodox? No! The chair is important...
The secular leaders are a collection of unsuccessful egoists.
In the future - everyone will cry about the possibilities that were - and it will not happen again.
To remind everyone that in the State House they cut off wigs for children from ultra-Orthodox families in Yemen and sent them to kibbutzim
Extremely secular.
Just forget that these people arrived in Israel following the perseverance of thousands of years, a memory to return to the real home, the rest will come back later on in the settlement. And that's what's happening today, except that the country's leaders may not
See this, but in these difficult days, the day of anti-Semitism and hatred for Israel and the Jewish people
Only our historical connection to the land with all that is implied, namely the religion of keeping the mitzvot that were kept for thousands of years in the diaspora, will ensure the continuation of our yeshiva here in Israel
In short, the country is not suitable for secularists who break the yoke. That is, today's secularists will either leave the country
Of their own free will or they will remain in the country following a return to the bosom of Judaism
It's a Greek tragedy. Everyone knows where the road and time lead and the process cannot be stopped.
A secular district must be established where it will be possible to live a secular lifestyle.
That you live in delusions is known. And it's your first time that you spew words out of your mouth that are not related to your real thought. Your vision is to distance the people of Israel from religion. There is a proverb that says It's better for you to keep quiet and count as a child. Than to write and confirm it.
That you live in delusions is known. And it's your first time that you spew words out of your mouth that are not related to your real thought. Your vision is to distance the people of Israel from religion. There is a proverb that says You better shut up and be considered a fool. Than to write and confirm it.
History is a collection of trends and turning points. Trends can still be predicted, but turning points... who knows. Here are some scenarios that turn any trend-based forecast into words on ice…
Regional nuclear war
A deep economic crisis that prevents the possibility of paying allowances to the ultra-Orthodox
A seven-year drought causes a wave to descend from the country
A culture war and a civil war in Europe that leads to a huge wave of immigration to Israel
Robotic revolutions and almost free energy from the sun shorten the working week to two days a week
What is called technological security
To tell a story, in London there was a serious sanitary problem of carriage horse excrement. Scholars have predicted that London will sink under a thick layer of excrement in twenty years. Over time, the problem disappeared thanks to the vehicles...
My father is accused of being a "leftist" not because of his political opinions but because of his approach to building the country.
People who keep scaring us that everything will automatically collapse, everything is over or everything is lost (referring to Tal Friedman's new program) come mainly from the left, and the blame of the majority in Israel towards them is that they are central contributors to the problems they themselves present at best, and at worst the source of the problem itself.
In fact, this country is growing and flourishing, and it's not that there aren't serious structural problems in the economy or that the middle class isn't in the process of a serious economic retreat... but still.
In this respect, demographic intimidation has been proven throughout Zionism to be a straw scarecrow - including those who scared Ben-Gurion not to establish a state because the Arab majority would destroy us in a war.
Those who present themselves as rational should look at the issue and direct the processes in a consistent way that matches the goals they want to achieve - intimidation and generalization are not an executive agenda, and the way to prevent apocalyptic visions is to strive for the integration of the ultra-Orthodox in the public sphere and at work, with the right assumption that the more they are exposed to modernity, the more percentages Many of them will moderate and want to live a life of honor and well-being, and their faith will not be harmed if they are able to integrate instead of being full of anxiety.
All of this is, of course, on the optimistic assumption that there will be no state here
A bi-national that will include the Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank (together about 4
a million people) because if so - Allah will be hidden!…
(Currently there is no plan to part with the West Bank, so the possibility
this one exists)
This is the same professor who in 1987 was quoted in the "24 Hours" supplement of Yedioth Ahronoth assuring that (exact quote from the title) "In the year 2000 - Israel is not Jewish"!!!
After such a blunder, how do you even continue to consider what this supposed idiot says?
These are all theories of numbers without taking into account cultural and religious transformations, the religious society itself is becoming more daring precisely because of its growing number and also the society will be more religious but nevertheless still modern and technological at the same time as Jewish values, it is enough to be afraid of demons and spirits. ???
Almost any secularist can tell you that his grandfather was a rabbi.
In two generations, every secular person will be able to say that his grandfather was ultra-Orthodox.
So what?! As long as we are with each other, everything will be fine!
Possibly
Very worrying. At the time, there was a status quo that was criticized. Unfortunately, the wars of existence for every government to maintain power, all the means are valid, including surrender, nullification, and incomprehensible flattery to anyone who can benefit from another vote for one coalition or another. If you look at the short history of the coalitions since the creation of the single state The late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin who was my business and did not give in to extortion was the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. Then wearing a kippah ("fool grass"?)... "punish" him and the part of the people to which I belong and I say this with pride!
35 years ago, I participated in a tour of the Galilee under the guidance of Professor Arnon Sofer, who then warned about the restriction of building height in the Arab villages of the Galilee, which creates a problem with the rate of population growth. Nothing dramatic has happened since then, neither for better nor for worse, despite and perhaps thanks to changes and adjustments that occur while moving all the time.
Absolutely right! I hope you are satisfied with the fact that Lapid's reforms will be canceled and the ultra-orthodox and religious nationals will return to the government.. Religion will grow stronger in this way instead of disappearing from the world as it should be..
Elisef, it's hard for me to understand you.
First of all, the culture of parasites does not make them non-parasites...
Their basic values are summed up in not being aware of society, living in a society they don't recognize and murderous and pedophile beliefs.
On the other hand, I am convinced that if we look at the research in depth and in detail, we will find that the professor did not omit the dimensions you mention and if so, then with a reasoned reason.
This is not the same demographer who already agreed to give up the Negev and the Galilee out of the stria lest we be finished demographically?
If the State of Israel exists until 2030 - let's discuss it.
Here are some common mistakes made by demographers:
The main mistake is that the more the number of ultra-Orthodox people increases, the more they will integrate into the labor market and other parts of society. So the problem is not as he describes.
Regarding the matter itself, this is also true, and I did not see that he took into account the number of converts.
Regarding the effect of repentance on demographics:
Let's say there is a secular couple with three children, one of them has repented for a third, in many cases he takes the others with him. He marries at the first opportunity, and also has quite a few children.
In the opposite case, say an ultra-Orthodox couple who have ten children, one becomes secular, in most cases it will take him longer to get married, and he won't have many children. Therefore, the phenomenon of repentance affects the demography even if there was an opposite movement of a similar magnitude.
But studies show that there are many more converts than the other way around.
Interestingly, there are those who accuse him of right-handedness. The conclusion is that one should consider the data and not the image of the researcher's political position.
The studies of the above are not "academic goshpanka" but another hallucination of a funded extreme left.
His research can be thrown into the trash can if one ignores, of course, a major event that happened in the XNUMXs - the immigration of a million people from the former Soviet Union upon its disintegration. Retrospective criticism is a very unfair thing.
Compared to the 'reservoir' of a Jewish population that was in the nineties, we have no reserve of a secular population that will immigrate to Israel and stop the drift towards a Halacha state.
"Now there is an academic guspanka to be feared" - neither guspanka nor plaster. This professor also predicted that in the year 2000 there would be an Arab majority in Israel. One can publish his research in a trash can and not on a science website.
Australia I'm on my way, save me a seat next to the kangaroo the deputy zookeeper
I agree with you 100%. People in this country are blind under the heavy influence of religion. The ultra-orthodox contribute nothing to the state and further worsen the situation by repenting. Too bad most people don't think like you in the country. The unnecessary payment that goes to the ultra-orthodox public could have contributed so much to the development of the country, instead it is setting the country back. I really hope that in 18 years the secularists will succeed in making the coup.
Reply to Raphael,
God forbid some nonsense gibberish in one comment.
It is true, nuclear reactors are not an invention of the ultra-orthodox, and as a general rule technology is certainly not the result of "holy" studies, yet without shame there are many ultra-orthedim who spit into the well from which they drink day in and hour out. They told me, Rafael or anyone who thinks like him, would you be willing to completely give up all the technology that the ultra-Orthodox did not develop? Computers, airplanes, electricity, mobile phones, printing houses and a long list? I know that mine and my acquaintances have no problem giving up "holy" books, synagogues, mezuzahs and other pagan paraphernalia that Judaism has adopted throughout history. In fact, not only are we willing to give up all of these, but we actually gave up and it's a miracle, our lives are good, rich, full of joy and creativity, friendships and vices (as well as science and technology). Would you be willing to give up, even for one month, everything that was invented and developed by those different from you that you despise and condescend to so much?
No, the ultra-orthodox are not to blame for everything. They are indeed guilty of parasitism on the sane part of this country, they are indeed guilty of the ignorance and rising violence within them, among themselves and in front of the other people who live around them, they are indeed guilty of arrogance that has no basis in terms of moral values (God save the distorted and corrupt morality in which the ultra-orthodox hold), they are Guilty of forcing their way of life on a large public, sometimes coercion with violence and sometimes just plagiarism, they are guilty of weakening this country in terms of its economic, security and worst of all educational (both moral and scientific) resilience. Unlike many ultra-Orthodox, no one else tries to make the ultra-Orthodox responsible for earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, global warming, droughts and not even nuclear reactor accidents. Haredim actually constantly try to attribute everything negative to a lack of "modesty", not observing Shabbat, not being careful to mutter the Psalms, etc.
They are the most guilty in that many of them do not understand at all 'love your neighbor as yourself' and think that your 'neighbor' can only be as ultra-Orthodox as they are and that every other person is at most the rank of a servant, and if you are a woman, a homosexual or a Jew, then even for this rank it is not certain that you deserve As far as they are concerned, they even dare to shift the responsibility for this onto their imaginary friend as if that makes these unimaginable moral distortions worthy of human consumption.
Is there a professor for that?
A child between 3 can say it.
The saddest thing is that in about 50 years. After the state disappears, everyone will say that the writing was on the wall.
And even sadder... in 2000 (and 50) years when the country will be rebuilt, the same thing will happen again.
Just learn the history!
Has anyone noticed how "Dror Israel" (almost certainly a made up name...) disappeared after M. Rothschild found and proved that he is a real liar ???
How typical of the religious people who come to these sites, pour out their nonsense and hide from Mania and Bia and disappear....
This is how it is when truth and enlightenment end forever.
The immediate separation of religion from the state - the order of the hour and one hour earlier!
To Raphael: I assume that there will be others who will answer you and I will leave it to them to confront you about your many mistakes regarding what science is and your fatal mistakes about it.
I will dwell on 2 points that arise from your words, but before I refer to your words I will say that I have learned that when talking with believers you must find out with them what they mean because after you have invested resources in refuting the argument they claim that this was not the intention at all and they interpret and demand different things in the idea itself. So:
1. The descent of the generations is such an absurd argument that only a person believes, and a religious person will accept it. So before wasting my time, I would like to hear: What is meant by "the descent of the generations"? In what, exactly, were previous generations superior or superior to us??
2. You present the scientists as pursuing honor and rule and tell about a director of an educational institution who fell short of moral judgment. Since you do not mention similar cases from the religious and ultra-orthodox world, do you mean to imply or God forbid claim that the degree of a person's religiosity contributes to his level of morality? And in general, do you think that a religious person, by virtue of his religiosity, has higher morals than a non-religious person?
How sad is the ongoing saga in the comments here. On the eve of the Freedom Day, Jews argue among themselves about trending research (and don't tell me that the esteemed professor doesn't have an agenda that guides him in his research). It is not at all clear to me why this is a concern, hence the editors of the science site see themselves as guardians of science (which, of course, according to their method, belongs to those who are not Torah and mitzvot observant) and what about the ultra-Orthodox and such a site. It's a shame that there is no study examining the trends of change in the ultra-orthodox and religious world that would enlighten the eyes of those who need such studies. In any case, I get the impression that the ultra-orthodox world has not been losing sight of science for many years. One of Israel's great men once defined the difference between Torah commentators and scientists as follows: Torah commentators trust that their predecessors were great scholars (greater even than them because there is what is called 'the decline of the generations') and therefore when they come to innovate, they build their innovations on the foundation laid by their predecessors . Scientists, on the other hand, try with all their might to cancel and disprove the opinion of their predecessors, whether they actually proved that they were wrong, or whether they hurried to glorify their name and snatch the crown from the head of their predecessors. In their own eyes, they are groundbreaking and innovative, but that is not always the case. The best example is the various studies in medical matters - anyone over the age of 50 will tell you that at the time certain foods were forbidden for the sick. The years have passed and a new study has determined that there is no basis for these things, therefore more for these patients to eat the same food. Then another study indicated that it is actually desirable for these patients to eat the same food. Along the way it turned out that certain studies were done with the funding of the company that produces that food. Things are understandable. One should not be moved by any research, all in all the nation of Israel has survived so many of those who stood up for it, what is research by an Israeli researcher for him? Like Pharaoh, we will pass this too. The people of Israel (which is the sum of those who are afraid of the study, and those who are encouraged by it) is the people of eternity, and as such it will succeed in this study, and even see its results come true. There is no need to fear, because the Holy One, blessed be He, leads us in His great mercy towards the final redemption, and that is certainly good. Look at how the world is shocked by the devastation that science and technology have brought upon us (at the moment they are really trying, without success, to overcome the leak from the miners in Japan. As far as I remember, nuclear reactors are not an invention of the ultra-orthodox) - the major ecological disasters (global warming due to a hole in the ozone, and dire predictions about flooding, etc.), problems of drugs and violence born from a lot of free time and boredom, etc. No, I'm not throwing this at one group or another, I just want to point out that hand in hand with the development of science and technology there is a greater need to strengthen human morality (sounds too religious, I know) - without it some madman will arise who will obtain the DNA of Stalin or Hitler and their ilk. There is no doubt that science can be very dangerous, no less than the majority of Haredi in Israel. At the time, I worked as a guide in a children's institution (who were removed from their home due to serious problems). One day a boy came to us, and after a thorough examination it turned out that his sister (from whom he was separated when they were small children) is also in our institution. One day it turned out that the two (who didn't know they were brothers) fell in love. Many of the staff warned that something had to be done about it, that it should not be allowed to continue. The director of the institution, a clearly immoral woman (who you can already guess how many mitzvot she keeps), decided that out of curiosity she would not interfere, if only to see what would happen to this forbidden affair. Many years have passed since then, and today, God blesses me, I keep Torah and mitzvot. In the past I really liked science (especially life sciences and nature) and I even got to work with some scientists. I respect many of them even today, some of them were so honor-seeking it's shocking. Some of them tended to hide the flaws in their research, and lose their composure when you pointed them out. The same Israeli elder who compared the Torah commentators to scientists added and said that all science needs is humility. And I add - if science would indeed practice humility (such as not using opinions and definitions such as 'fear', etc.) and would only investigate without bias, and present its findings. If in his humility he had also researched topics he fears (topics in the areas of the spirit, body and mind, life after death, etc.), even though many already know that there are things in the body, I would even be happy and happy about the findings of the research. Unfortunately, I know that science will continue to ignore everything that would require them to change their approach with various claims (which have nothing to do with empirical science). In short - even if we assume that this study is unbiased, even if we assume that it is not funded by parties interested in changing your voting patterns (if there are such dangers, let's vote for the left that fights the ultra-orthodox), even if we assume that there are no European funds that want Israel to be more left-wing, more religiously free etc. fund him, etc. This research does not give rise to me (and to many and many like me, as it appears from it itself) concerns, because I know that for the Jewish people it is better and more correct than what is happening today in a world devoid of morality and devoid of taking responsibility as we are witnessing and experiencing same day. After all, the ultra-orthodox cannot be blamed for everything.
It's amazing how those who believe in nonsense don't let the facts confuse them.
Note that this is the case in every field - whether it is about crime statistics, whether it is about the objectivity of the press, whether it is about the essence of democracy, and of course - whether it is about the obviously immoral laws of the religion or about the obviously far-fetched stories written in the Torah.
Their answer to any reference by someone to the facts in the field is ultimately one:
You hate Haredim.
Well - with such curiosity and such reactions - why is it that they hate you?
I really hope that what the professor said is true!!! I wish!!! But my rational says that apart from the fact that he went very far, his prediction stems from hatred of the religious and a desire to cause agitation among the seculars against the religious!!!
In my opinion, by 2030 it is not certain that we will be... so you can relax...
For the facts: Since the lie is attached to religious (Jewish, Muslim, etc.) your comment and the absurd comparison to Stirmer are seen as a delusion, which is quite understandable and clear if you consume the "opium for the masses" known as "religion". Do you want references that allow rabbis to lie in order to "bring" Jews closer to religion? See "Dror Israel" who responded with the vigor reserved for the pans and disappeared when they exposed his face and presented his lies.
I respond a lot in questions and answers on the "Deat Emet" website. There is not and has not been a single medical practitioner who has dealt with the serious and learned surfers on the site for a long time. If Dike has one who still responds there - religious observant - but he is strange in his religious perception and thinking...
In general, the Pavlovian reactions of religious people in general and ultra-Orthodox people in particular to mention the holocaust and the spoils related to it in any discussion about religion and faith reminds me of the statement of a wise Jewess who became disillusioned and was redeemed from religious life and below is the quote from the "Deat Emet" website:
"And thirdly, that religion freezes the instinct of daring and flight, and just as there was no rebellion of dogs for being tied up, because they are so used to this being their way of life that they do not see their way of life as lacking in something.
And for a reason, that religion does not need means to suppress rebellions. And people are afraid - just like that.
good day,
XXX
For a traditional Jew: it is already clear from the nickname that this is a religious woman even if she does not observe "light or severe" mitzvot, because her world of thought is firmly rooted in the framework of faith and religion, and these in themselves have the potential to harm pure reason.
Have you read the reference to democracy that people of your kind praise and praise with the intention of exploiting it to harm the essence of freedom and humanism? Just like the Muslims in Europe who suddenly enjoy full human rights, so the religious "glorify" democracy and point an accusing finger at those who seem to them to be disobedient in their attitude to democracy.
You were right about one thing - "hence there is no connection to the religious inclination but to the inclination to crime." It's just that in every discussion with a religious man, he waves his "purity of the camp" from crime, evil and wrongdoing compared to the "secular" criminals and easy-going people. M. Rothschild simply put things on their accuracy.
Statements like: "Your research is obviously nonsense and illogical. Moreover, it is undemocratic when it preaches against religion" are hot air. Here it is customary to give sources and references exactly as you call it: "Israel hater" does. At least he is debating seriously and not arguing and rambling.
I can also call you a slave-in-disposition and a religious and observant woman. And I also have references for this.... the religious letters. That's why if he is "unhappy" you are certainly many times more unhappy being a wretched slave.
Another thing where you are flawed in your perception and Michael has already explained it: liberal democracy allows freedom of religion and should allow freedom of religion. Here in Israel there is no freedom from religion, not as long as the religious impose (and most of the lax seculars happily bow their shoulders to this religious yoke and coercion...) their primitive laws of marriage, persecute anyone who presents and sells chametz on Pesach and more, etc. So don't worry, there is full and complete freedom of religion here - for all religions, by the way, but there is not, absolutely not the same freedom as secular or free Jews (a more accurate expression for Jews who are not religious at all and maintain a Jewish identity).
Regarding this infuriating sentence: "To our friends suffering from hatred of Jews". Who hates Jews, who??
You, like one of the respondents before you, create an absolute identity between Jew and religious. a scandal I am a dear and righteous Jew and, at the same time, an atheist, an infidel, a heretic, a secularist and a proud descendant of Elisha ben Abuya, known as "the other" by those religious people who consider "wise"...
Go out and learn, daughter of Israel, be wise and get rid of your ignorance and do not allow your wisdom to live as a slave to your faith.
Happy holiday.
Ynet, Ma'ariv, Ha'aretz, are they all instigators in the style of Stirmer? And who is telling the truth? Faithful stake, the informant, Friday?
That is, as soon as you come to power, you will demand from the media not to report any offense by religious people, as of now, I trust these sources.
Mr. Rothschild
All the links you provided are incitement journalism in the style of Stirmer.
Just like an instigator like you who brings press and rumors as facts.
There is no link to any conviction in a court of law, but you don't need that
Go start cutting the beards of ultra-Orthodox Jews.
You and the aforementioned professor Hametz passed the Passover.
Mr. Point, I agree with you on every word and every comma.
You are welcome to continue writing to our friends suffering from hatred of Jews
Professor Super, resign, you do not justify the salary you are paid.
Your research is obviously nonsensical and illogical. Moreover, it is undemocratic when it preaches against religion (after all, there is freedom of religion and freedom from religion for those who are interested).
The final conclusion is even more stupid than the article itself.
How is it possible that if the country's population becomes more religious then assimilation will increase?!
As for the unfortunate man who claimed that there is a connection between ultra-Orthodox and crime - why do you change an entire sector and bring only half of the facts?
You completely ignored the number of seculars in the country compared to the crime ratio in the secular sector. And hence there is no connection to the religious inclination but to the inclination to crime.
Stop causing brotherly hatred, Israel hater like you.
facts:
Aryeh Deri was religious before he was imprisoned.
So is Yigal Amir and Mother Taliban.
So are many others.
All of the list of transfers I listed in response 64 were made (in one month only!) by ultra-Orthodox who were ultra-Orthodox before making the transfer.
So I really respect your desire to ignore the facts but allow me, for now, to ignore you.
point:
Rafaim and Amit made it very clear what I already explained to you.
When you replace democracy with a non-democratic form of government, you destroy democracy even if you do it in a democratic way.
That is why the term "defensive democracy" was invented to describe a democracy that prevents its destruction by excluding anti-democratic political groups.
There is a very serious moral justification for this:
A generation that destroys democracy does so not only for itself but also for future generations.
He denies future generations the right to determine their own destiny.
Note that democracy does not cause a similar thing.
For example - even in a democracy it is allowed to enact all religious laws if the majority wants it.
If there is a generation that is stupid enough to think thatThese laws Good - he can enact them.
The only thing he cannot do is oblige future generations to live by them.
To the point and to the whole discussion about democracy. This is a method and it is accepted by everyone here. There is nothing "holy" about the method that should best serve the liberal-humanist worldview. Why did democracy become essential? It is not... it serves the best and is the most correct for maintaining the liberal-humanist outlook and way of life. Therefore, if Hitler or the Muslim Brotherhood were elected democratically, there is no justification for accepting or respecting the "democratic decision" since the system does not exactly allow those who really won the majority to rule. In the American system of electors, whoever won the minority of votes can rule. In Germany, Hitler won, I think, with less than 50% of the votes and all.
To Michael: You are a hidden righteous person, you. Hahaha great how you catch the religious in their lies. We learned from our Rabbis that lying is a kosher and moral tool when it comes to repentance. Eliyahu Dassler (he has a great degree) wrote this explicitly in his letter and there are other kippah wearers who have addressed this.
The name itself "Dror Yisrael" (how the words teach about reality: as his name is the opposite of his entire essence that works so these people often use the concept of "the truth" and the strict "the victorious truth" and even the strict "the victorious truth of our holy teachings" all who lie with a determined forehead) is expressed As the last of the pans with the title "my friend" to my father, with the spectacle of the scouts in his mouth, with the words of love and peace (really Pisnik from the 60's...) and with the lies, distortions, frauds, castration, distortion and suppression of reality, facts and truth.
It is transparent like clear glass in the light of day...
Mr. Rothschild
The prison is one of the highest places of repentance in the country.
The heads of the crime cartels appear dressed in large kippahs and others in ultra-Orthodox clothing.
They appear in the courts in the guise of ultra-righteous ultra-Orthodox.
So what's the wonder that the percentage of "Orthodox" is so high in prison.
These are the same "Orthodox" who will put a bomb in your car or shoot at your car indiscriminately.
Dror Israel
Why does every answer of yours seem to have gone through the press of niceness and hypocrisy?
are you real?
And another point:
If you want to go back in time to a period of theocratic rule because according to your opinion it can also represent the will of the people like a democratic rule, then, I would recommend you to go back in time to a time when an anarchic rule prevailed, and then you will really see what real freedom is!
point
What you said about democracy - by and large - is true.
But, if the ultra-orthodox take over the country, they will replace the democratic regime with a theocratic regime.
If you didn't understand:
Theocracy does not advocate the principles that democracy advocates.
Therefore, if democracy is replaced by theocracy, democratic principles will suffer.
Needless to say that I am against democracy, or at least think that it is the least evil in our current situation, the majority of the public is stupid, and so are their decisions.
Michael I disagree with you.
Democracy in its pure sense, and also in its philosophical sense is a system of government where the people decide what is good for them. And if the people decide that it is good for them that a book of laws from 60 years ago is good for them or from 100 million years ago, that is up to their private consideration.
Democracy is not equivalent to secularism or pluralism.
point:
Too bad you didn't understand.
Democracy is a system of government where the laws are determined by the elected legislature and not by a book from thousands of years ago.
The system of government that will be obtained as a result of the rise of the ultra-Orthodox is called theocracy or, in Hebrew, state of law
I did not understand why democracy would be destroyed. If the majority is ultra-Orthodox then the country will be ultra-orthed where is democracy destroyed? If the ultra-orthodox majority wants their rabbis to lead, what is more democratic than that?
Friends:
Have you not yet realized that this sparrow "Israel" is an uninhibited liar?
You can only argue with honest people.
Liars, beyond the fact that they have proven that the truth is not important to them, also lie to you (obviously, don't they?) and make it so that if you didn't notice the lie, you will draw the conclusions you logically draw - based on wrong data.
Just for fun - I made some inquiries regarding Hermon prison.
Do you remember that in response 79 the liar wrote "a few years ago I studied in the Hermon prison there were close to 700 prisoners of which about 5 were religious and 3 ultra-Orthodox"?
And do you remember that he wrote that "out of those who leave the prison, over 90% return again to the prison killers"?
So I found the Hermon prison website:
http://www.ips.gov.il/NR/exeres/E7D10DF6-BA61-4127-81ED-7836CA0230EB,frameless.htm
Regarding the first claim, I called the phone number listed there: 04-6788566
I asked where I could get statistical information on the distribution of prisoners by sector, and I was directed to the director of prisoners - Miki at 04-6788516
I asked Mickey if it was possible that at one time the prison had 5 religious prisoners out of 700 and he just laughed.
He said that the percentages are much larger and that the percentage of ultra-Orthodox is particularly high in the field of sexual offenses.
He could not or did not want to give me exact numbers and referred me to the Shebas spokesperson.
I sent them a fax and if there is an answer - I will share it with you.
Regarding the second claim - I simply turned to the "Frequently Asked Questions" link:
http://www.ips.gov.il/Shabas/QUESTIONS/
The question appears there "What are the percentages of prisoners in the Shavas (when considering returning to prison)?"
The answer to this question is: "Over 60% of the prisoners in the Shavas serve repeated imprisonment (second imprisonment or higher). "
That's why I repeat: it's a shame for every moment wasted talking to a liar.
It's worse than talking to the wall.
To Dror Israel: On the Daat Emet site it is not possible to comment on the articles. It's not up for debate. Even on the Torah and the Talmud, there is no place to give "comments"......the person who wrote the things was a 15th century student for many years and taught students in the Kollel. He knows the material in its entirety and tested it against the greats of Judaism XNUMX years ago. He sobered up and redeemed.
If you want to write and say things and comments about what is claimed in the article(s), you can -on the home page - go to "Questions and Answers" and write a serious and reasoned argument. You will get answers and comments.
The problem with the site is that all the religious people who enter disappear after a few comments and do not deal with all the claims to the end. There is only one religious person who is a strange breed with beliefs that are fundamentally different from the usual tradition found among the Orthodox. However, he is observant. Nickname on the website "Yossi" and you can get an impression for yourself of this "type" and his way of expressing himself and his unusual opinions.
Regarding your email. Forgive me, but I am learning an attempt from your "brother" to believe that after many, long and exhausting correspondences, nothing came of it. There is no point in that. I prefer to write my words on websites such as the current one, Daat Emet, groups and forums on Facebook, etc. The light and enlightenment must be spread to the ignorant masses who are degenerating into the darkness of faith and the slavery of religion when laughter and joy flow over their faces. Scary and shocking.
Schmitz, always a corner of the Israeli skeptic that is indeed a part of society and history, was a component of the Hidan website. Sometimes less and sometimes more. To remind you, there is the series Haunted Country where I respond to events in the field of religion as well but not only - also in relation to other mysticisms such as complementary medicine, astrology, etc. (Regarding there is no difference between religions and other beliefs). The same question is also asked of Nature why he deals with the aspect of the struggle to study evolution while attacking the religious motive of the opponents.
But of course it doesn't bother you that I criticize Islam, Christianity or other religions within the framework of society and history, it bothers you that your specific faith is being attacked. If you are not a hypocrite, thank you very much.
Is this article somehow related to…?
Space and astronomy?
environment and energy?
Computing and technology?
Biology and medicine?
Society and history?
Science in Israel?
Probably maybe a little for society and history. There is no in-depth insight here except that there may be more Haredim in the country in 2030.
is it bad Maybe... depends on who
What is clear from the responses and from the very publication of the article is that the "Hidan" website is slowly becoming a platform for the distribution of anti-religious and anti-Orthodox content, and if this is the goal of the website, it is better to change the society and history category to "anti-Orthodox".
to sparrow Another fresh proof of the tolerance we expect in the Halacha state
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4052295,00.html
We must build a lot in IOSH so that all religious people will live there!
R.H. Rafai.M
A. Statistically, 3 out of 700 is less than half a percent, 5 out of 700 is 1 percent.
The percentage of ultra-Orthodox in the country is higher than half a percent. The percentage of religions in the country is higher than a percentage. See this survey: 42% of Israelis define themselves as secular, 25% traditional but not religious, 13% traditional-religious, 12% religious and 8% ultra-Orthodox.
B. When the percentage of religions in the country increases, piracy will decrease even more because there will be less negative influence of the world where propaganda is what everyone who is honest in his eyes will do.
Also, a prison is a system of laws that is not according to our religion. The religious line deals with the rehabilitation of the criminal in a different way, but this does not apply to this place.
third. Already in the current geographical area of this country we are being attacked by all kinds of destructive tools.
Something that didn't happen before the expiration of the agreement was a disaster for him. that it should be tested if it is successful for five years only. See the value of Ashdod Ashkelon Be'er Sheva and soon 70 values that belong more to the center of the country would not be the Lord. Luckily for us, heaven arranges for us that the XNUMX wolves that want to eat the sheep are now fighting each other as the sages promised nearly thousands of years ago.
sparrow
You wrote that there were 700 prisoners in the prison, of which about 5 were religious and only 3 of the 5 were ultra-Orthodox.
In your opinion, do those 3 represent the entire ultra-orthodox population?
If so, you need to brush up on your knowledge of 'what is statistics'.
If you love Jews so much and you love the country in which you live and which gives you the freedom to live,
So I would recommend that you draft a constitution for this country that would enshrine within it the right of the Jewish people to have a state (in the current geographic area). And it's good if you do it before September, otherwise serious trouble is expected here.
And the sooner the better.
Amit, I made a mistake in the email:cohen.israel79@gmail.com
Amit the Tzadik,
Even before you wrote me your comment, I went to the website to see what they had to say about the Rebbe
And so that you don't think I'm lying like some people think. In general, they talk there about the Rebbe's opinion that a Jew should be independent in his thoughts and opinions and then send Anati to the Rebbe's proof of the status of Mount Sinai
And they try to refute this with two sources from our holy religion. And more from archaeological sources and from there they reach a dangerous and dangerous conclusion. I wanted to respond so I went to the home page and couldn't find how. my email
coen.israel79@gmail.com
B. I wish I knew less and less about the negative things that belong to both the religious and the non-religious. It is true that I was carried away with the raging current in the talk of the good turn about our holy people. And I even saw that it caused some to prove who is better than who. And he added slander to it. Until my friend Avraham came and proved me by showing me how far it had come. This is not my goal and my state and I do see how our people look these days. Something that makes me very sad. But still regarding the explanation of which is the best education for a Jew I have no different opinion. The Torah is called Torah Or and the purpose is to add light and not to darken.
third. Thanks for the heartwarming psychological analysis. But what can I do if I look at my conversion as a man sobered up from a drunken world that follows vanity.
have a good night. A great righteous man.
Lali-75: Your response proves that you have fallen for the ultra-Orthodox religious propaganda. You perceive Judaism as a religion. Mathematically, Judaism = religion. That is why anyone who goes against the religious is labeled as "anti-Jewish". Complete and utter nonsense. I am a Jew, the son of a Jew, everyone is proud. and secular. We chose Judaism only that it is not the same as the Judaism that you mistakenly think is "Judaism". You are nothing more than a foolish believer who fell for the religious propaganda that claims Judaism = religion and a good Jew is an observant religious person. Rubbish.
Judaism is a culture and the Jews are a people. Every nation has a culture, so do we Jews. Part of culture is religion. only a part. We free, secular and Zionist Jews find expression for our Judaism without the need for belief in God and religion. Unfortunately, Dror Israel pointed out the painful point of the loss of the Zionist way. We abandoned Judaism to religious people who took it over as the source of much loot. We violated our ancient culture into a primitive, dark and narrow-minded current that sees only the Orthodox religion as an expression of Judaism. This is vanity. Rubbish. Jewish culture is richer than its orthodox manifestation. Even after hundreds of years of religious censorship of everything that does not conform to the narrow view of religion.
I don't know you personally, you represent to me the lax, loose and wretched secular who "respects" the religious and the religion, the secular who puts a napkin (cloth/reed) over his head in a crowded hall while at the other end some shaggy old rabbi mumbles indistinct words (a blessing.... ). He put the piece of cloth/paper to "respect" the religion and class while blasphemously shaming exactly what he thinks he respects. This description that depicts the wretched secularist with the napkin on his head depicts the current (sickly) secularist...that's how Drod was before he repented, so what's the wonder then that he chose between bad option A and bad option B????
Father, we agreed not to deal with this issue. But here you are right, I sinned and I do mean it, because of carelessness in my words. I made another Jew compare Jews to what he compared. On this the Sages said, "Be careful with your words" (Tractate Perki Avot) Thank you for the rebuke,
good night my friend
Lezvi: Democracy is indeed the method by which the government functions. But real democracy is liberal, otherwise there is democracy in Syria and Egypt as well....that's not what those who talk about democracy mean, right?
Well, if you mean liberalism, then the democratic system is not enough without the liberal "spirit" and it establishes several principles that the religious cannot answer due to their anti-liberal and coercive nature.
Ladror Yisrael (your name, which expresses freedom, is a literal interpretation of your essence, which is total slavery to the will of God, but in my opinion, it perfectly expresses the absurdity of the religion....just a comment):
A. First I don't have your email. Second, if you want to learn and not be satisfied with one random email that came to you, browse the science site for "Deat Emet" and wait. There are mountains of rebuttals to the religion's claims, including reference to the rabbinic "answers" to the claims of D.A. and the refutation of the answers to the truth claims to D.A. Do you really want to know the truth? As someone who has experienced a conversion seminar, it is clear to me beyond any doubt that you are a victim of sophisticated brainwashing. Do you really want to try and check the truth? You have been religious for years and your faith is stable, so come to know the truth and learn and be convinced.
B. Of course you don't know. In general, everything that has to do with negative things about the ultra-Orthodox world is "difficult to know" I understand... but what is clear to anyone with an understanding that many, many and not good among the religious do not observe the Halacha, violate the laws of the state and then what do we get? People who received the kind of "good Jewish" education that you recommend here are increasingly sinning against their holy Torah, increasingly criminal against their people and their country. Well, what educational products do you recommend? And what about the rest of the products that little and a talisman brought you from. Rothschild as an example? There are other websites, for example on the website "Freedom" where press clippings with "exploits" of religious people are detailed. And we are talking about what is published in a closed and closed conservative society that keeps its dirty laundry in secret and closeted. If this is what is known, what is really happening that is not known????????…
third. Dror Tehal recruited you to his elite units before you repented. What is it similar to? A drinker who tells me he served as a pilot. OK, but when he was a pilot he still didn't indulge in a bitter drop. As mentioned, the fact that you repented and didn't check things properly (otherwise you wouldn't have repented...) proves that the education you received was deficient. It is clear that you were lacking, especially mentally, and therefore you repented because the whole subject of faith and religion is an emotional matter, not an intellectual one. Faith finds an explanation only in the psychological-mental aspect. This is exactly how you can understand very smart and educated people - they always mention Y. Leibovich as an example. True, he believed. and religious But this is exactly where he failed. His religiosity was in spite of his wisdom and education and not because of them. Despite his intelligence, he fell into the emotional aspect of a life of faith and religion.
That's how everyone believes. and religious I already wrote above that even secular beliefs such as communism are religious beliefs, in fact. There were people from A-D who were smart and successful despite and despite the fact that they were communists. The explanation for their belief, as mentioned, in the psychological-mental-emotional aspect.
All the best to you and a restful night, dear Jew
Sparrow, you did it yourself with the nonsense claim about the Nazis implementing evolution.
Lali forgive me for slapping you too
But please don't compare any Jew to a Nazi
With the blessing of a kosher and happy holiday
To R.H.Rafai.M
A few years ago I studied at the Hermon prison, there were close to 700 prisoners, of which about 5 were religious and 3 were ultra-Orthodox.
That is, a millet from a percentage. I taught for about a year and the attitude did not change at all. One day, a Torah scroll was brought into the synagogue in the prison and these are the words said by the director of the prison (not me), of those who leave the prison, over 90% return to the prison killers, but of the converts who were in the prison, less than XNUMX percent return. You may check it.
He added and claimed that this was statistically tested.
And the same argument regarding the cover-up can also be said regarding the party who does not observe Torah and Mitzvos. So this is not a scientific proof. Just a common belief among those who do not observe Torah and Mitzvot to justify their actions.
to me:
You're a bullshit.
The only ones who act as anti-Semites are the ultra-Orthodox and they do it in every possible way.
The sad joke of "the full cart and the empty cart" is only the tip of the iceberg, but another tip of it is denying citizenship to hundreds of thousands of people whom the Nazis would have murdered because of their Jewishness.
Do you understand?
The State of Israel was established to serve as a refuge for the Jewish people and the ultra-Orthodox - while collaborating with anti-Semitism to no avail - are preventing it from fulfilling its purpose.
Can you - beyond your anti-Semitic statements - point to one claim that was unfairly made against the ultra-Orthodox?
Dror Israel:
I repeat: I do not work for you and you will not determine for me what I will do for myself.
I wasted way more time on you than it's worth.
I did not say that you referred to response 40, but because you did not refer to this response - I referred to it and what I said regarding it (and you) is true
deer:
Indeed - the separation of religion from the state is a necessary step to prevent the landslide.
But the truth is that this is not enough to save democracy because the religious parties are just an example of what happens when democracy is not a "defensive democracy".
As a principle - a defensive democracy is the only democracy that can guarantee survival and it is based on anchoring in the constitution a complete prohibition of the political activity of anti-democratic forces (religion is anti-democratic by definition and also according to the statement of its leaders, but Hitler also came to power because the democracy in his country was not defensive)
A new religion was created in Israel, "Secular Nazism".
Unfortunately, anti-Semitism in the country is on the rise.
The hatred here is not towards the ultra-orthodox, but towards Judaism or in other words towards Jews who chose Judaism.
🙁
To my dear Mr. Rothschild
Stop making excuses
You should tell the truth
So a miracle is yours don't do it for me do it for yourself be honest with yourself. my friend
post Scriptum. Ratchlid, I wrote comment 41 there and not 40
(Our Torah commands us not to lie) I wrote there that all Israel is holy and I have no secular and this is what I wrote "... by the way if you notice I do not use the word "secular" for a Jew since the root of the word secular comes from the word sand, and our nation Israel is a holy nation including you"
Mathematical proof (if you can call it that) that democracy is a system that doesn't work.
Before you get angry - let's analyze..
If in a democratic way, when every vote is equal to a vote, we reach a situation where democracy is abolished and a religious government takes the place of the "enlightened" democratic government, it means that democracy ate itself in an evolutionary way and has no right to exist.
the solution..
Either they will separate religion from the state (like in the USA - and they are much more religious than us) and one hour earlier or they will cancel some of the privileges that some citizens have - those who do not participate in the joint effort.
Any other solution is a fig leaf
And of course, from a moral point of view, the ultra-Orthodox commit far more crimes, only that their political lobby takes care of training the creeps.
This of course also includes the security and economic parasitism.
To the righteous Jewish colleague
A. I encountered the Da'at Emet movement already many years ago when their missionary magazine arrived in the mailbox. I read this journal with all their positions and assumptions about certain things that they claim contradict our teachings. I entered the website and wrote a comment which of course was not published and I have not received a reply since then either.
You have in front of you my mailbox, yours to me, what you think will make me panic and doubt Judaism.
And in BAZ you will receive honest and straight treatment.
B. I don't know what goes under the carpet of all kinds of non-religious organizations, both right-wing and left-wing, in my opinion, when they act contrary to the laws of the country on these issues. They are acting against the Halacha because in these matters there is what is called in Judaism the Law of Monarchy and it must be upheld (see response 67) because in this way when the state is deceived and it doesn't matter which state, anarchy is created. This is more difficult for the religious because in addition to this there is blasphemy of God, which is a serious thing Most of us are religious
third. Regarding my education, my parents, blessed be God, educated me very well. In any case, this is my opinion about the education I received at the school. It is probably good, because otherwise, why did Chahal accept me for a pilot course (remember the password, the best for pilots). But probably because my education was not perfect, I was expelled because of a problem in my homeland (after the flights in the Piper plane) in a problem called distraction (if by any chance you've heard of it), but despite this I served three years in the Navy in one of the elite professions there as an electronics technician (in the field the classifier of this). And for your information, my conversion was from an internal achievement without any seminar or any religious bias to the contrary and furthermore I did not tolerate religion and religions similar to what is happening with you today. And believe me I understand you.
Sincerely, don't forget to send to my email
By the way, Dror:
You wrote "I would love to be wrong and come off as a liar"
So don't worry - you're out.
If you're really that happy to come off as a liar, that might explain quite a bit your tendency to lie.
sparrow
Even if the Jews commit crimes, among them the secular Jews often publish the actions of the other seculars in the media, and there is no shortage of data from the police that can be used for statistics.
However,
With the religious Jews, everything is hidden, "modest", and they do not publicize their transgressions.
And not only that, they also sometimes whitewash their transfers by adding lie upon lie.
sparrow:
I don't work for you.
You will not find a case like Abraham our father or a Taliban mother among the seculars.
You will not find "modesty" vigils whose very existence is the result of continuous violence that is carried out every minute of the day and night among secularists.
You did not write that there is no difference between a Jew and a Jew when you lied about response 40.
Maybe after that you wrote something like that, but even if you did (and I don't mean to read all of the Liar Sparrow's writings) it just shows that you don't care to write anything and vice versa.
Dear Michael Rothschild
I don't come to get bogged down in the things that Jews do and as I wrote (note 41) (63) that there is no difference between a Jew and a Jew
, so that when one does something that has transpired at that very moment, he is not acting as a religious person and it does not matter if he is religious. But of course I will be very happy when they write in the news about every case that happens
(i.e. a crime committed by some person against the law) even when he is not religious, then they will emphasize this and write that a person who does not keep the Torah and Mitzvos did so and so. I guess your list for the week!!! It will then be longer and with much more serious crimes. It is also possible that this is a lie, so I will ask you to make a small effort for the sake of scientific truth and collect a list of only one week and not a month and publish it here. I would love to be wrong and come across as a liar
Avi (49)
No. I meant can the professor communicate with sputnik with those glasses?
Because I heard that if he stands next to a television receiver, he can receive Al Jazeera in HD quality.
To Dror Israel:
A. You passionately recommend the book of Rabbi Milovoitch "Faith and Science". You've probably read it. Beauty. Now come and read a bit about the book (short article) - http://www.daatemet.org.il/articles/article.cfm?article_id=23
In general, you preach openness to R. Blizovsky. He and you will also be open and surf for your pleasure to the website "Deat Emet" which puts religion and faith in their proper and correct place. Is there any chance of openness and seriousness from you on the matter?
I have read your words and allow me to ignore all the claims of faith of all kinds such as Abraham receiving the Book of Creation or writing it is the same vanity in my eyes.
B. You claim that religious people have no money. It is true that most of them are voluntarily poor. But the organizations of repentance have a lot of money. Mainly public money that comes from the public coffers. Not to mention the cheating, fraud and theft that are part of ultra-Orthodox life. Only recently was the case of forgery revealed. The identity, first hundreds of fake associations were exposed that were registered in order to steal money. And these are affairs that were revealed in the country and by an establishment very sympathetic to the ultra-Orthodox, an establishment that if it really wanted and was looking for the cheating, fraud and theft of this public in evading taxes and defrauding the state authorities, our ears would be saved.
third. About your response number 54. You repent. If so, you are an example of shame and corruption of the education system, a disgrace to the way your parents and the education system raised you and educated you. Your ignorance and blunders ("Regarding the theory of evolution from a century of shortness of breath, I do not wish to shame the students of this theory, which is all almost complete ignorance of the laws of nature. ") testify more than anything about you and the path you have chosen in your life - the orthodox path of lies.
I was also in a conversion seminar and studied a little Talmud in Bnei Brak. I was indeed shocked. How, I asked, I don't have clear, overwhelming answers to these people (the ultra-orthodox) who were clear to me that they are wrong and misleading. I went out to check and investigate. Not "examination and investigation" as the converts tell about it because it is nothing more than brainwashing to which they devoted themselves, but real examination and investigation.
And what did I discover? That I was exposed to a brainwashing seminar with lies, deceptions, deceptions, half-truths, distortions and castrations of science and facts.
You are indeed right, the state of the education system is bad and bad and you are the painful example of that. You and your kind are friends who grew up with me and were lost forever in the world of darkness and slavery.
The fact that the education system is in a bad state means that there is improvement and progress and not a complete deterioration to a medieval education system.
Dror Israel (40):
I was also taught to stand up in front of elders and so I also taught my children.
More than that - I also taught them not to hit women who sit at the front of the bus.
Is this taught at your place?
If so - then with a distinct lack of success.
I don't know what statistics you did on standing up on the bus, but I have never (but never!) seen an ultra-Orthodox give up his seat to someone.
I've seen seculars who do this too.
Violence is indeed increasing - especially in the ultra-orthodox public.
You don't have to go as far Mother Taliban Or until Avraham, our father, who is admired for the fact that he drove his one wife with her son - his son - to die in the desert and was ready to slaughter his second son
It is enough if we settle for a selection from the last month:
A rabbi's son was caught at customs with 10 kg of human hair to make wigs
War of the courts in Netivot: 3 threatened the X-ray
An ultra-Orthodox boy disappeared after being ordered to return him to his father
An elderly rabbi was convicted in the whitewashing case in New York
Parents of a 13-year-old married her off against the law
Suspicion: Senior officials of the ultra-orthodox education directorate in the Jewish state falsified hours
Albert Halul claims that he was stabbed in parts of his body last night by religious Jews
A day before the verdict: In the Shas they call for Ksatsav
Rabbis for a rhythm
But on the other hand:
Katsav was punished from heaven for his support of the deportation
Moshe Katsav prays at his home with his associates
Head of Hasidism: The tsunami - due to the imprisonment of ultra-Orthodox Jews in Japan
This, by the way, is simply amazing: not only did these ultra-Orthodox smuggle drugs, but the rabbis say that tens of thousands of people who do not belong to the matter deserve to die because of it!
Haredim who attacked boys
The philanthropist of the Shas Zvi movement Amr is accused in France of embezzlement and money laundering
Thousands of divorced women in Israel suffer from divorce issues
I traveled with my wife and my little son, and my ultra-Orthodox son Ibn
The attack on the boys in Haifa
Haredi communities provide escort services
At the entrance to the capital, trash cans were set on fire in protest of the arrest of eight ultra-Orthodox
If she ran away from home because of the violence of the father, who of course is not violent because he is ultra-Orthodox, the child was transferred to his custody
A rabbi calls for settlers to shoot at soldiers
From now on: even the ultra-Orthodox in Spain have a chastity watch
Baba Baruch: We are Sitra Dakdosha and the X-ray is Sitra Achra
As a result of the inspection: a sharp drop in the number of stallions
By the way, Drorinka, how about This collection of Jewish laws ?
The truth is that all your other comments are also full of lies and nonsense, but it's really tiring to deal with every nonsense and every lie and enough so that everyone understands how your words should be treated.
Dear Shahar
The dawn pillar is a metaphor in the Torah for the time of redemption
An ideal time when it is revealed that there is indeed no superiority of one person over another
So the true supremacy emerged
Creator
Naomi has a short response
I understand that you don't like my comments and I also understand why.
in sparrow friendship
Well, maybe in the sixtieth response, can I ask for the study itself?
To Abraham my friend
Don't be so angry, but I would be very happy to apologize. If indeed my words are built on lies. Therefore, let us treat my claims and yours in a more scientific manner. And we will go over the details in a more precise and scientific manner. First let's begin
from the ground up And he is the creation of the universe. Please answer me honestly whether there is one opinion for the creation of the universe, whether the big bang is the only theory and I emphasize a theory, that is, only a hypothetical theoretical thing. Therefore answer me and you with real honesty whether there is more than one hypothesis for the way the universe was formed and the time of its existence. Please, let's go through this step by step so that we can find out for sure if there is a lie in the things that I have put before you.
The only thing I apologize for at this point is that I made you so angry and I apologize.
Your friend Dror
In the Arab matter, the Russian aliyah delayed Sofer's expectations by several decades.
As one who remembers the demographic studies from the 70s by the esteemed professor, there should have been an Arab majority here already a few years ago.
The ultra-Orthodox have been moving for decades between 10 and 20 seats and there is no real growth trend except for Shas in the great days of Deri - so vote for Shas even non-Orthedim.
There is a trend of secularization all over the world and it is also coming to us.
I would build more on the studies of the futurist David Pasig than Mr. Sofer who has not offended until now.
I am not worried - the ultra-orthodox are also changing and they are not as monolithic as all the worried people who commented before think.
The wheel turns and there is nothing new under the sun
Fanaticism rises and falls
Wars come and go
After every wave of progress comes a period of darkness
We are running too fast adopting technologies and approaches
which many seem to lack fundamental values
That is why a wave of correction will come and we will not know the troubles of its consequences
But consider where he will come
The stable regimes of our neighbors have fallen and we are moving
To a very uncertain future here outside and at home
A collection of people for whom divine justice is found only... God save us
from their punishment
I wish beliefs that included the supremacy of a person would be removed from the law
one on the other. Yes, including the stupid principle of a virtuous person.
The human race has not yet learned its lesson
I think that a maximum number of characters per comment should be banned here on the site. It is customary in the world, and probably from the experience of webmasters with responses like Dror's
Dror, I'm tired of you, you can't even count how many lies there are in your last response, and if you want it not to be the last in the mess, feel free to apologize for all the lies there - about evolution, about crime among the ultra-orthodox and criminals who repent, and hundreds more, and I'm not exaggerating , lies, that either you don't understand that they are lies or you are so brainwashed by the internal ultra-Orthodox propaganda that you don't even understand it.
Because of the money you drink all the time from the budget and because you multiply, it is taken from somewhere - right - from the higher education budgets. You know that in the last decade the Israeli universities have deteriorated in the table of the best universities in the world. quite fed up Your every sentence is ultra-Orthodox propaganda of the lowest variety that it's hard to even know where to start.
My friend Avraham
Surely you already understood that I belong to the ultra-orthodox sector, but you also understood that I am one of those ignorant repentant listeners,
Well, before I repented I knew nothing about Torah and Mitzvot, it is true that we were taught in elementary school about the exodus from Egypt, it is true that we were taught that the plague of blood was red loess soil. And I believed that the people of the past were so ignorant that they could not differentiate between loess soil and blood, including Pharaoh, the leader of the great power of those times. It is true that they taught me about the splitting of the Red Sea which was done because of a flood and tides that probably the people of Egypt have never encountered such a phenomenon since their days, and I was taught in a completely opposite way of knowledge from what my ancestors taught, they instilled me with anti-religious ignorance. And that's why you're trying to say that school children know about Israeli holidays. After all, it is complete ignorance that when high school children ask about who in the saying the keeper of Israel will not sleep or sleep, they explain that it was written about the army. Go ahead and ask them some questions in Judaism and see what they will tell you. This is what I call ignorance in Judaism. But I don't blame the youth for that, nor their teachers, because they too were taught in such a way of ignorance and Jewish ignorance.
Regarding the theory of evolution from the century of shortness of breath, I do not wish to shame the students of this theory
She is almost completely ignorant of the laws of nature. In schools, children are taught as if this is the only scientific opinion available. And it's a shame.
As for Egged and Dan, these are companies that are always subsidized and not because of the ultra-orthodox public, and even when they were less religious in the country, Egged was subsidized and even more than it is today.
I still maintain that if Egged was not profitable, they would not have set up these lines, and what's more, there are ultra-Orthodox in Ramat Aviv, who knows, maybe they will soon be subsidized there as well. because you have to lose,
Regarding the kosher, I didn't exactly understand this excuse you gave about the companies, but as far as I know, 30% of the companies' profits come from the ultra-orthodox public. Imagine what will happen when they stop buying from them.
And at least as far as the contractors are concerned, I'm glad you admit that they profit from it. And it's a shame that you think that building contractors are not able to think more than one project ahead.
The tax money goes to all publics and not only to the religious, for example how much money goes to the fight against the crime wave. Did you know that 90% of the prisoners who leave prison return again unless they have repented, in which case only 2 percent return! How much money does the state pay to rehabilitate drug addicts, most of whom are non-Orthodox or religious
Certainly the money should reach equally to all sectors
Even for the Torah Talmudists who live in old moldy apartments instead of having elaborate buildings built for them, a yeshiva boy who mutters Judaism should receive all the teva's that a student studying Islam at a university receives.
And I'm not just talking about the monthly payment and assistance. I'm talking about the buildings on the residences that cost a fortune and their possession. I'm talking about the computer rooms that you own and hold. I'm talking about the salaries given to all the lecturers running in the corridors. I'm talking about the air conditioning, I'm talking about the lawns at the university and the gardening. Don't worry, the truth is that we prefer the money to the boys studying for meals. But we ultra-Orthodox don't shout about it and grumble. On the contrary, may everything be good to you.
Regarding the plumbers and the bus drivers or any other type of work that you are only familiar with, if you want I will send you a list of my ultra-Orthodox friends who work in this day and night. It is true that they also get up in the morning and mumble immediately in the sycamore
I thank you before you, living king, that you restored my soul in me with great compassion and your faith
Your friend Dror
If you want to understand what there is ignorance about and what there is not, you should know that precisely in everything related to Israel's heritage there is no ignorance. On the contrary, out of a desire to consider you, they do not teach scientific content in the state schools (as I mentioned, including evolution), on the other hand, today's children know a lot about the holidays of Israel and the Bible, and also history, they learn only from Israel's perspective and no longer learn the history of the rest of the world.
Even regarding buses, you are ignorant because your lines are subsidized by our taxes - why does a trip from Jerusalem to Haifa on line 972 cost 24 shekels and the same trip on line 940 costs 42?
The kosher names companies so that they have an excuse to make Israel the most expensive country in the world for home food.
Invent a kosher cell phone to prevent your children from being exposed to secular content, another "achievement" of introducing ignorance. Indeed, thanks to the profit of the building contractors from the religious, they are also the great contributors to the stinking enterprise of conversion. What do they care that with this money they are destroying the future of the State of Israel, have you ever seen a contractor who thinks beyond the horizon of one project?
It is not natural that the tax money will go exclusively to one sector that, out of ideology, chooses to avoid work. Tax money should go to the disabled, the elderly, and those who cannot work, not those who can and prefer to mumble and get paid for it.
When they stop paying money for mutterings, they will have no choice but to also work as plumbers, bus drivers, etc. Unfortunately, in academia, very few of them can fit in because of the ignorance of the education system that you so brag about as your achievement.
Avraham my friend. I am glad that you admit that the education system has instilled ignorance among the youth. One of them is ignorance of their Jewish roots. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that within three weeks of studying Gemara in a yeshiva, the youth repent. What the non-religious education fails to do during all their years of study. And this entire education system collapses in just a few weeks or within a few lectures. Maybe if they taught the youth more which nation they belong to. And what wisdom he holds within him, maybe then they wouldn't be swept away after the doss or maybe the education system is once again afraid to give them a window into the rooted and original Jewish world and is burying the history only since the establishment of the state. You will know. Regarding the money of the millions, you forgot that the Haredim are poor. Where do they get so much money from? And especially for a family like mine whose children's allowance was cut. So we are considered below the poverty line. Or maybe for a couple studying in a kollel where the husband receives a monthly salary of one thousand five hundred shekels. From the state! By the way, everyone who works pays taxes and the ultra-Orthodox and the religious also pay taxes and with their taxes they build various theaters with their taxes they develop the stadiums where they play on Shabbat.
Another point for thought, have you ever seen how many buses are driven by religious people, they pay the driver and don't get on for free. And the Egged company earns very well. Have you ever thought why huge companies name strictly kosher in their products, I'll tell you, they make good money from the ultra-Orthodox and it's worth it to them. Have you thought why they invented a kosher cell phone?
Very simply, they make good money from the religious. Have you ever thought how much money optical companies make from the religious. Have you ever thought about how much money printing houses make from religious book readers. Have you ever thought about how much money construction contractors make from the religious and more and more... and this is the real reason why the factories that employ thousands of workers are courting the ultra-Orthodox public. The ultra-orthodox public with them spread an additional economic profit in many percentages
And not a loss. Therefore, it is also natural that some of the tax money will also reach them as equal citizens in a reformed country.
Your friend Dror.
I am not afraid to read any book, not even communist books, they will not affect me, they will only make one thing a colossal waste of time. The conversion rate doubles solely for one reason for which this site was created - ignorance. The education system has instilled ignorance among the youth, and the rabbis come to them and seem to fill the void, only that unlike this site, they fill the void in Barra. It is not a problem to take billions and invest in repentance and then be surprised that it succeeds despite the falseness inherent in it. Anything that prepares the infrastructure for him (through ignorance and neglect of education) and then with an investment of billions will succeed. We will see you wise without our taxes. If someone now wants to bring back the values of communism, all he needs is a. Biasing the education system towards, b. Dildola, c. Investing huge amounts of money in studying communism, including funding tens of thousands of communist fighters who will occupy every neighborhood. The fact that it is false does not matter, of course. So is religion.
In honor of my friend Avraham
You claim that you are a person who advocates science, scientific research is mainly known to test and explore every possibility in order to be most accurate. And here in the method of your claims you contradict the method of science that you advocate. To begin with, this book was written mainly by a man who, as I mentioned before, was consulted by scientists in all fields of science. A person who completed a doctorate at a university in France. And he invented an innovative invention in the field of atomic propulsion that is still used today on ships in the United States, so that treating such a person as ignorant is an inaccurate treatment to say the least.
And even if this explanation does not satisfy you, my friend, your very refusals on the part of your contentment to examine whether there is any scientific explanation in the book, and your method is to ignore slogans, it's a shame for your lack of openness, which is one of the eyesores that science advocates, and again if you had carefully examined what I wrote before Yes, so the book itself does not talk about any contradiction in the divine Torah. (because actually there is none) He is talking about contradictions that exist
and clearly shows them contradictions in the scientific logic itself,
But the truth seems to me that you are somewhere afraid to reveal this book lest you find suitable answers,
Still, I would be happy if you would speak more to the point and less in belligerent slogans. This is not appropriate for a scientist.
post Scriptum. In connection with what we started at the very beginning about the findings of Professor Arnon Sofer regarding the length of time the country is going to panic. Here is an innovation that has not been written to you yet, that as there are those who say it will take longer or the like, my opinion is even the opposite, in much less time it will happen. The rate of conversion doubles almost logarithmically. and not linear. Our sons, did you believe that they would ever repent from kibbutzim and even more so in the stronghold of Haifa or the strong stronghold of Ramat Aviv. This revolution is closer than this professor predicts. Anyway, this is my opinion.
R. H. Rafaim, did you mean Rahav?
If you mention Darwin's theory one more time in connection with the Nazis, you will be blocked. Haredi propaganda that draws from Christian missionary propaganda is a bit too much for me.
I am not interested in books of excuses that others have written to explain to themselves the contradiction they themselves have created. Regarding there is no contradiction and no excuses and it's a shame about my time. In a book written by ignoramuses I doubt if there can be any kind of scientific treasure. And since there are trillions of such books, their place is in the recycling bin. Too bad about the trees they cut down because of them.
The real interesting question is: Can a super professor see Neptune with these glasses?
Avraham my friend
The Nazis will erase their name. We made a simple claim that they were a superior race. The idea is based on mutations in nature (according to Darwin's theory) and I just wanted to show that when they use scientific reasoning in order to complete their evils, they are able to turn these matters into a destructive process. See the Hiroshima Nagasaki entry. See the Iran vs. Iraq war entry. There they used non-conventional weapons, and all these were created by the developing science. Look today, for example, at global warming, look at the ozone layer. All this was done by the development of science. And today it can be fixed by using alternative energy and speed. Only the problem is. The same ones who control the system and make calculations of economic losses they may have. And all this was done by the development of science without real criticism for the benefit of the world. but for the benefit of a few individuals.
It seems that the idea may not belong to religion but. If a person is aware that the world in which he is found was created and belongs to the Creator himself (see Rashi in his commentary on the word Genesis) and he was created to serve his own, he is also aware that he must protect the Creator's world.
Your hint about the sanity of the world's Shoi, I don't know if you mean the Lubavitcher rabbi or any heads of nation or leaders or scientists or military personnel or wealthy people and the list goes on from the common people to the chosen among them. By the way, after the speech of the head of state, Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu, at the UN recently, which was received with applause
Mr. Binyamin Netanyahu said that what he said was according to the advice of the Lubvitch Rebbe. It's interesting that probably everyone has a question of sanity.
Regarding the book Faith and Science, the book is a collection of answers given by the Lubavitcher Rebbe to senior scientists and science students. And exactly the opposite of your hypothesis to what it says. It is precisely in the book that the slap between the Tanrah that was given by the Creator of the world is emphasized. and science which is a learning process for humans, but at the same time the book shows the virtue of science and the importance of it and this as long as science is indeed aware of its limitations. And it will be known that he must correct the many contradictions in it. The book actually does not come to the excuse that supposedly the Torah does correspond to what science has discovered. He mainly came to emphasize the differences in the perspective and way of thinking of the Torah of Israel and the limited thinking of human beings,
See for yourself making a basic assumption about what is written in the book without even looking at it. A mistaken assumption, but don't be bitter. Zen is our weakness and because of that we are human. And still out of friendship I would offer you as a man for whom science is important
To examine in a purely scientific manner and not with some weak conclusion the topics the book deals with. I promise you that you will discover a world there that you have not encountered before. A new type of scientific thought.
Regarding the explanation that the book refers to the fact that science is against a verse or a word in the various religions, for your information the book hardly deals with this, the book deals with pure scientific logic
Due to the lack of space, I am not presenting one of the examples. And still have a good day and it's very interesting to talk to you
To Eliyahu-35: Thank you for confirming my righteousness...:-).
Quote: "You call yourself secular, but you have an unqualified belief in humanistic evolution." Well? I do not "believe in humanistic evolution". what is it Anyway ? By the way, I don't believe in anything at all. I either know or I don't. Faith in my eyes is a synonym for: imagination, fiction, invention, hallucination, etc. In complete and utter contrast to the lunatics of faith who claim that faith is "above" knowledge. Or where knowledge ends, faith begins and then, as it were, there is "sublime knowledge" that comes to give knowledge about what we do not know through reason. This is a complete nonsense claim, of course. Where knowledge ends, imaginations, false ideas, inventions, fictions and hallucinations begin. Instead of all these words, you can simply say - faith.
I call myself secular for a simple reason. A secular is someone who is not religious. That's all. This is not a positive definition with content but means the negation of religiosity. This is a religious concept that comes to condemn those who are not religious and are in the holy place but stay in the "dirt" and are therefore secular.
As for myself, I am free from any trace of religiosity.
I agree with you about the difficulty of secular people to struggle against cohesive and religious communities. In this regard, I will also intervene in your discussion with B. Abi and support him. There may not be a pan "on every corner" but there is a religion "on every corner". This does not mean, of course, their very existence and the fact that they walk among us and breathe the same air, but the meaning is that they try and work (with a lot of public funds that we all know their source...) to influence and change people's opinion. B. My father mentioned the Ramot Shaviv and R. Aviv and I can tell you about dozens of unequivocally non-religious settlement points that are penetrated by religious ones (yes, the terminology is accurate) and begin to influence the character of the settlement. You will not be surprised to know that most of their actions are done against the law, regulations and procedures (not to mention against basic human morality).
Herzl knew and knew the issue very well and therefore claimed in his vision that just as the army should be closed at its bases, so the religious should be kept in the synagogues. We didn't keep them in the synagogues, we didn't separate religion and state, and now we eat...
Regarding the difficulty in education, I do not understand and do not agree because I do not have any difficulty with my children.
Haredim going to work: indeed, this is a difficult problem, but it is not the heart of the problem, and their going to work will only exacerbate the problem, because when they have many financial resources, we, the secular ones of sorts, will be crushed under their feet. The hysteria is not only in place but, unfortunately, it exists only among a small and negligible minority who understand where the country and the people are heading. The absolute majority of secularists are complacent.
Quote: "Shas: They started as a sectoral party and today they are the most social party in the Knesset." Well, it's nice of you to end with a joke, but in my opinion, Shas and everything related to her don't make me laugh at all, not anymore. Definately not.
I will end with the hope of the ascension and awakening of the people sitting in Zion who are shackled by their own will, with joy and passion that is not clear in the shackles of faith and who enslave themselves to religion and waste and their deviant rabbis.
The Nazis did not apply Darwin's theory, this is another stupid ultra-Orthodox propaganda.
After all, in nature there is no regulator that determines who is suitable and who is not, the Nazis had one, so this comparison is really out of place. As for Rabbi Malovitch. I am not responsible for the mental sanity of Shoi Olam. And as for the book. For my part, let the religious mediate as much as they want between science and faith - while distorting science, I have nothing to call excuses because I do not need this mediation. I'm completely on the side of science, and I don't care if it contradicts a word in the Bible, a sentence in the Koran or a whole paragraph in the Hottentot voodoo books.
Peace and blessings to Abraham
I hope it doesn't make you angry that I call you my friend, even though our opinions differ. But I would be very happy to participate with you in promoting the world. In my humble opinion, the world is indeed moving forward with great strides, but first we must know in which direction, although science is a very blessed thing, a simple example. It is the correspondence between us, that if I were to advance in science, who knows if I would have talked to you. By way of the Internet, but the Nazis also used a scientific theory (Darwin) to prove that they were a superior race. Therefore, when there is only science without a spiritual goal, this can serve as an obstacle, for example, what do you think about global peace when each country helps another country, and strengthens each other, like the desired goal written in the Torah of Israel
"Nation shall not raise a sword against nation, and there shall be no more war" What do you think of the rich helping the poor as much as they can so that "the good will be abundant" (Rambam at the end of the Laws of Kings)
In your eyes against the Chabadniks, you surely know that their rabbi, the Lubavitcher Rabbi, is one of the only rabbis to whom the greats of the nation and great scientists flocked to develop, and he himself is a man who deals in all fields of science, so that it is precisely for the Chabad people to speak as people who are ignorant of science that it seems absurd to me. By the way, there is an interesting book by the Chabadniks and it is called faith and science, I would suggest you to look at it. I would love to hear your response and by the way, good luck to you
It's not a few khabadniks, it's a deliberate settlement. They came in their hundreds and settled in public buildings in Ramat Aviv neighborhoods and turned them into nests for child theft (what morons call repentance). This is an obscene movement that attributes to itself Judaism while it is a declared pagan movement, even Rabbi Shech said that it is the closest sect to Judaism. If it weren't for their violence also against other ultra-orthedim, they would have long since been denounced and found out of the Jewish community - simply afraid of them.
They did not hesitate to take intoxicated children who had stolen earlier and bring them to Ramat Aviv III so that they could beat secular residents who came to demonstrate against the events that Chabad held on Shabbat nights in the Shuster Center (also religious, working on Shabbat...). They treated me personally with violence (after they realized that they could not buy me or make me submit that they were only keeping the tradition). I have already informed myself that I will oppose any religious activity of any body of A that will be in the Ramat Aviv area until they leave - so that other more legitimate religious bodies will be encouraged to help us expel them. Instead - all the bodies - including the national religious ones cooperate with them, which is simply stupid.
If this is what the whole country will look like in twenty years, it is better to close the basta now. We will not be better than today's Iran - in my opinion, the Iranians will manage to get rid of the crazy government by then, why do we deserve it?
post Scriptum. The Chabad claim that the group in Ramat Aviv belongs to the Messianic stream that everyone disapproves of - well, this is just a tactic to mislead the secularists. There is no non-Messianic Chabadnik. They are all crazy messiahs.
I'm sorry you think you have something to tell me about how to raise my children. Why should I teach them your sect, why not teach them science so that they will be citizens of the world? Unlike religion that changes from place to place, science is what advances the world and is the common denominator through which engineers from Israel, Afghanistan and Palestinians work together, for example at CERN.
What you want is tame children, not educated.
Peace and blessings to dear Abraham,
I was happy to hear that there are some chabadniks around you who are trying to convince you to put on tefillin like your ancestors once did. By the way, if you have noticed, I do not use the word "secular" for a Jew, since the root of the word secular comes from the word sand, and our nation Israel is a holy nation, including you. After all, you are called Abraham after the father of the nation, Abraham, our father, who was Abraham the Hebrew, and we were called that because of a name whose perception of the world was different, on the opposite side of that world, who was a worshiper of idols. .
A book called the Book of Creation is attributed to Abraham our father. And it can be said that he is talking about the foundations of creation in this world
So according to the value of your perception, he himself is a sort of researcher and man of science. And regarding the matter of the fri'a and the rabbi', I brought up the idea for a main reason, and that is that the Jew who does not observe the mitzvot is obliged to do so according to the Torah, and even all the sons of Noah. That is, all the inhabitants of the world. And in my opinion there is no shame in that. Take me as an example, I was blessed and I have twelve children, all of them, God's blessing, keep Torah and Mitzvot, two of them are now serving and the third is after military service.
So even according to the statistics in relation to the non-religious world, I am in a good situation, has it occurred to you that I have any kind of sorrow for one of the children I brought to HW? Think about the pleasure of sitting with everyone for a few hours at the Shabbat table. Think about the pleasure of seeing your grandchildren come. Is there any value in the non-religious world that compares to the gift of Pro and Rabu. Or what wet economic value of one single person.?
Peace and blessing to the ghost and also to dear Abraham. I will answer first first and last last with your permission. Today I am over fifty years old. When I was a child then on the bus I was taught that you should stand up to the elders, a question? How many boys today stand up to adults on the bus (I'm talking of course about the non-religious youth) wake up the poor and look around you at the wonderful youth growing up in the country, we'll talk about the easy thing for example drugs. A thing that penetrates the fringes of the religious world, but see the power of it in the non-religious world.
. And do you forget the articles in Nablus and Arab about the rising violence among the youth. Some young people and old people are attacked. Let's see the dark education of the religious who from zero years are educating their children about removing an old face. Honoring father and mother, keeping the language clean, loving others. And many more mitzvot between a person and his friend. It is interesting how much non-religious education is invested in these concepts and how much time it spends in schools. And I'm not talking about a lesson in citizenship, which in the eyes of the students is another heavy burden,
Friends, I think there is a bit of an exaggeration here regarding the religious community.
As a person who grew up in a religious home and repeated the question, I think there is an excessive fear of religious people here.
I would make a distinction between religious and ultra-Orthodox - a person can be religious and still serve in the army, work and contribute to society and support an enlightened and democratic society, and by the way, the religious state education system in my opinion is also of higher quality than the state education system.
Regarding the ultra-Orthodox, I agree that there is something to be afraid of, but it will be a long time before they become the majority, and until then I hope, as some of the people mentioned, that there will be a change (even though I am not optimistic about it), unless the leadership today takes matters into its own hands and tries to change the situation by Changing the conditions in the ultra-orthodox education system.
Friends, the change starts with us. If you don't start explaining and being attentive to each of you, nothing will change. With the help of our understanding today, each of us has the tools to deal with these people, not to let them influence and yes, fight it, as sad as it is, there is no other way. This is no small thing, we are dealing with a well-oiled and powerful system. It is not for nothing that it has existed for so long and it will continue until the end of our lives. The question is how much power it will have, and how much it will affect the future of our children.
He talks about another 20 years and he forgot that they said the same things 20 years ago. We are satisfied with the researches on behalf of recruiting prophecies of wrath.
To Eliyahu, just this evening I walked from Ramat Aviv C to Neve Avivim and back and ran into at least 10 different Chabadniks, one of whom, even though he knew me, insisted that I put a tefillin inside the Shufersal and of course I sent him back to Kfar Chabad. It's simply impossible to see their evil smile anymore and the pressures they apply to deny their opponents a livelihood (they tried it with two of the people of Channel 2 and succeeded in applying such pressure that they stopped participating in demonstrations against them).
These lunatics who want our children should be taken (for this they established more Chabad houses in Ramat Aviv than in the whole of India) and throw them where they deserve - Gaha.
And when I talk about a frying pan in every corner, as a resident of Ramat Aviv I know what I'm talking about, and Michael will also ask what is happening in Ramat HaShevim, its name is Barslavim. It is the state's responsibility that children are not stolen and it is promoted in its position as soon as it puts the parties representing these cocoas into a coalition and compromises on the backs of our children.
When they are in power they will not remember the spineless politicians who brought them there and I will not forget the interview on New Evening with Shahar Ilan on the one hand and Yossi Beilin on the other where Yossi Beilin said that even today he is ready to wear a Streimel for the sake of peace. In the meantime we are all almost wearing Streimel and where is the peace?
post Scriptum. As for the Shas, the only thing it issued was a march of ministers and Knesset members to prisons. They don't care about any company but only themselves (and as we saw in the various sentences in a very personal way).
Avi,
"A pan in every corner" you exaggerated. In my opinion, you will find that there are more repeaters than repenters. Religious people simply have more children, so the gap is small. The secularists need to examine why their renaissance has ended, and today there is no influx to the "light" (as Bialik says) as there was only about 50 years ago. The main thing is to give a real alternative to religiosity with positive content, and not just say what we are not.
What is disturbing is that most of the converts are not only alarmed, but seem to choose a way of escaping from the world and from responsibility.
Amit,
Although you call yourself secular, you have an unqualified belief in humanistic evolution. You remind me of the optimism of Rabbi Kook's students (you are truly righteous). But what, that religions (even the secular ones such as the "religion of work" in the days before the state) educate the person to make an effort for the common good, so in the final analysis, people with a stubborn ideology take all the money. Unfortunately (really!) secularism today is manifested in excessive individualism and pluralism, which makes it difficult to work for a common goal. It is very difficult for a pluralist to define absolute contents, because he is not ready to really argue with someone. That's why when he has children, he finds it difficult to educate them because it is seen as a form of coercion.
Ask Michael, and he will explain it to you in meme experts.
All in all, the hysteria does not justify itself.
The more anxious they become, the financial pressure on them will increase and they will go to work as their grandfathers did.
At first they were afraid that Lupoliansky would close clubs on Saturday, and he didn't even blink in their direction. Which shows that the more involved they are, the more they compromise where necessary.
Take Shas for example: they started as a sectoral party and today they are the most social party in the Knesset, and their ministers (especially the communications ministers) do a good service for the public as a whole, and do not fall below other ministers.
The title should be - Secularists, wake up because soon it will be too late...
But no..why don't we lose a day of work...why don't we enjoy ourselves and see the big bin...
Instead of going to the street to demonstrate power because that's how things move here in Israel only by blood power
This is what I see everywhere in the country - all the tycoons succeed here because no one gives a damn
Where is public transportation? Where are the never-ending bank fees...? I want to move things
You have to leave your computer because clicking the LIKE button won't help anything!!
To the fan: Oh well, you've decided that I'm a Samalani and maybe a communist, mercifully (international). With such delusions I am convinced that you are religious.
Ladror Israel: Yes, of course. Israel prospers only thanks to the religious. Obviously. And not those who work, but rather the idlers who waste their time on the nonsense of the Talmud at the expense of the laborers and producers, the useful and the enlightened. Thanks to the prayers, Talmud Torah, not only are we an economic power, but also our enemies wipe our face in all wars. In this logical line, only the stupid secularists waste so much money on a wasteful security system instead of sending half the soldiers to learn Torah. We would have already reached the Euphrates and the Tigris on the one hand and the Chalanilos on the other. long ago. What fun it is to discuss with a person who believes everything is clear, bright and clear. pleasure. Everything is also pure logic that was added in the yeshiva. Obviously.
To the fan: Oh well, you've decided that I'm a Samalani and maybe a communist, mercifully (international). With such delusions I am convinced that you are religious.
Ladror Israel: Yes, of course. Israel prospers only thanks to the religious. Obviously. And not those who work, but rather the idlers who waste their time on the nonsense of the Talmud at the expense of the laborers and producers, the useful and the enlightened. Thanks to the prayers, Talmud Torah, not only are we an economic power, but also our enemies wipe our face in all wars. In this logical line, only the stupid secularists waste so much money on a wasteful security system instead of sending half the soldiers to learn Torah. We would have already reached the Euphrates and the Tigris on the one hand and the Chalanilos on the other. long ago. What fun it is to discuss with a person who believes everything is clear, bright and clear. pleasure. Everything is also pure logic that was added in the yeshiva. Obviously.
This country is headed for disaster.
The problem is not with the ultra-Orthodox, but with the seculars.
Israel HERE WE COME!!!
I don't know about you but I'm starting to build a spaceship.
With the rise of religious forces this whole world will be dragged back.
To Dror, what good will the Pro-Varbo mitzvah do to the secularists if at every corner of the street there is waiting for the children of a rabbi who steals them from their parents? First of all the pans have to vacate Ramat Aviv, Neve Sha'anan, secular neighborhoods in Jerusalem, Ramot Shaviv, then we will talk about secular reproduction.
Dror Israel
keep mitzvot? Call it what you will, but you don't even have to be religious to perform a blessed deed.
what? Won't you help the old lady cross the road? Do you have to be religious for this?
And it's good that you mentioned the Sabbath!
I want to tell you something about this: if a person wants to work (also) on Shabbat because he doesn't have money to buy bread for his children, and he needs every dime, then he deserves to work and make a decent living on Shabbat as well.
Just what, the ultra-Orthodox prevent such people from working on Shabbat and earning money, thereby actually pulling these people (mainly poor) to the bottom. And causes that those people are unable to 'get out of the pit'.
But such an act is definitely a mitzvah in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox!
Why?
Because the poor cannot fight against religious institutions...
And on this it is said: if you can't beat them, join them
(And this is exactly what the poor do - join the faith in the name and live off charity funds).
I hope that in the near future there will be a new law that will allow work on Shabbat, and rest on Sunday (this will at least put some more money into the state coffers, and from this money alone they will pay the ultra-Orthodox parties).
The Kretzer has never met a 'repenter' this is a cheeky Abyssinian nickname
The secular is a respectable Jew and is not a sack of potatoes that is shaken and returned,
A Jew repents of his own accord after studying with a teacher, considered, examined, and accepted.
example?!
This Jew cannot be brought back:
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%98_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A7
http://www.ee.washington.edu/faculty/haralick/
This Jew is world famous in the scientific community in his field, he cannot be returned, he is not a sack of carrots.
And I know where he studied and other details. There are many like him
There is no need to argue about evolution in most of its components because it is not a function of Judaism (and certainly not the very minor parameters in microevolution that have been empirically proven as natural selection within series.)
It is quite possible that the preoccupation with this stems from the ridiculousness of theories of random evolution that entertain as fictional and secular science tries to support them.
<<Religious people like you who believe in evolution this will be an achievement on a scale
global.
The idea of evolution appears in Chazal, and in recent generations the Pride of Israel (devout ultra-Orthodox) and Rabbi Kook (national ultra-Orthodox) have dealt with it.
If your atheism is based on ovulation - you are in big trouble
A slightly more serious response. Do you know who is the chairman of the finance committee in the most complex country in the world
Both from an economic, security and demographic point of view. After all, it is our country. And by the way, with all the difficult economic situation in the whole world, this country is doing better than expected. Well then I will introduce you to enlightened people. The Chairman of the Finance Committee is none other than Rabbi Moshe Gafni Adam Haredi. Who owns half of the money of Agudat Israel Bank?
Another dos. I forgot who is one of the owners of the largest gas company in the country. Yes, you were right.
Maybe you haven't been around Bnei Brak recently either. But as far as I remember, there are all kinds of parking lots and supermarkets there, and the biggest surprise is that unbelievably ultra-Orthodox people work there.
A simple way to succeed in correcting the distortion is to simply start fulfilling the first mitzvah in the Torah (out of 613
The commandments)
And she is pro and rabbo, that's how you will defeat the ultra-Orthodox...oops but be very careful because a mitzvah leads to a mitzvah and you can also start observing more mitzvahs. Like for example and love your neighbor as yourself. or you will not commit adultery. Either you don't covet or you don't kill. Or you won't steal..and even the worst. Not working on Shabbat, oh my
Whiner, try debating evolution with a penitent, or with one of those sects who have turned into zombies and follow him. Try to talk to Khabadnik/Shasnik/Nachan. If after this there are 2-3 religious people like you who believe in evolution, it will be an achievement on a global scale.
I liked the naive optimism
The ultra-Orthodox public knows the secularists and their wares well
He is aware and exposed to every parameter and the value smell in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqmvyTUucEo
And that is precisely why he exaggerates and returns and clings to eternal values
And precisely in the young people
-
The idea of evolution is not against Judaism, on the contrary - it originates from it.
The partly illusory details of evolution are also not a threat
And every extrapolation made is more ridiculous than the previous one
Religion and science live together with Judaism and even friends
Relatives, the Jew is commanded to explore the wonders of the universe and advance
Exchange between Christianity and Judaism, not bad it is found for those who have no idea what Judaism is.
Salomon, you are right, they did not offer anything. Instead of teaching about the holidays and customs in state schools, they should have taught evolution and then there was a real alternative.
I am actually much more optimistic about this, my impression is that in recent years the ultra-Orthodox public has been exposed more and more to real, current, and scientific information via the Internet, to the various debates and arguments on the topics of evolution, religion and science, information that until now was blocked from them is now available, I see it in the forums, I see This is in talkbacks on different sites.
In my opinion, a change is taking place, and there is a good chance that in the end the token will fall for them, especially for the young among them, there is a good chance that they will leave this way of life and connect with the truth.
Here is an article on:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4046026,00.html
A fellow righteous Jew
You wrote a quote at the end of your words -> "Who said it had to be clear and boring"
Do you think the things you wrote before are innovative, original and not boring?!
Do you believe in these things or are you just a fanatic in your quotes.
After all, these are the trite dictions of the left.
From the aforementioned "original" Small Talk we will wake up to a better world. You will soon start with the international.
Leaftah-13: From the comparison you make to the kibbutzim, I understand that you agree that, like them, religion is closed and dark. Or not because you declare that you are religious. What does the comparison to the kibbutz and their ideology have to teach???
I tell you what I conclude. I am a free, secular Jew who sees Judaism as defining nationality and culture (religion is included and is only a part of culture). I have been claiming, for a long time, that every belief is a sin and a grave mistake. Faith compels and forces you to enslave your reason to your faith. As a servant of faith, reason serves her in the holy place and "explains" reality so that it becomes a diamond for faith. Belief is not necessarily religious - communism, fascism, etc. were based on beliefs. Some of them also had clear lines in common with religion. Communism was definitely a "secular religion".
The next evolutionary stage of man in his cultural development (the "spiritual" ??? I prefer not to use this loaded word but for those who find it helpful please) is liberal humanism that frees man from the shackles of faith and from the enslavement of religion and the worship of the rabbis.
Like any social process there is no progress in a straight line there are ups and downs, progress and retreat. This is how the 20th century taught us well how the West, advancing towards humanism-liberalism, retreated sharply into the dark abyss of the world of beliefs (secularism... this time) but came to its senses and defeated the dark forces that emerged within and among it, I hope for the world. Again, in recent years there has been a certain deterioration and this time in the direction of religion....
Well, who said it has to be clear and boring? There is an interest in life. I believe (not believe, believe...) that enlightenment and reason will win and the forces of darkness will weaken. will weaken very much.
The state was established as a secular state.
If what you have to offer was satisfactory, there would be no religion.
Take responsibility. Where did you go wrong?
It should be known that Arnon Sofer's demographic studies are hotly disputed.
This is something that has been known for years, the question is how to change this direction, assuming that religious Jews and Muslims will not disappear.
Liftach, not all religiosity is dark, but definitely the ultra-Orthodox version of it. If until recently I could wholeheartedly say that there is an intermediate current, then this current of national religiosity has been completely horrified and instead of competing with the ultra-orthodox for openness and tolerance, it is competing with them for massive repentance. And by the way, everyone has conditions for recruitment. Everyone would like to serve from eight to four and do nothing. Why should the demands of the ultra-Orthodox be met and the demands of others not? An army is an army. This excuse of conditions is a ridiculous excuse. After all, the food is kosher. What do they want? Do not serve with girls. Soon they will demand not to serve with people who speak the Hebrew language.'
First of all, as a religious person and a regular reader of "Hidan", I am shocked by the one-sidedness and naivety of the views that this demographic forecast is a "problem". And I'm not talking about the picture of the state of the economy as presented, which if it is indeed true then we really should be worried, but about the fact that a religious majority is expected.
Is religiosity the dark one? After all, kibbutznik secularism, which has many rights in the establishment of the state, is no less a "religion" than any religion. It is closed in its secularity no less than religiosity is closed in its religiosity, and "dark" like it.
I don't know what facts Prof. Sofer bases his research on, but it is worth noting that today more and more ultra-Orthodox are integrating into higher education institutions, the various professions and the public discourse. If the conditions are more adapted to the religious - we will see more of them in the army as well. Quite a few ultra-Orthodox have expressed their willingness to enlist, but the unsuitable conditions prevent them from doing so. Many signs indicate that the ghetto is breaking through. And as for the religious public - after all, it has been there for a long time.
It's hard for me not to feel that even with the ultra-orthodox they would have integrated nicely and to a certain extent in all the above-mentioned areas - still the spirit of the article and the talkbacks would have been blowing in the same direction.
We are one people, one company. The time has come for us to stop feeling superior to each other and to fear and hate each other.
By the way, the "bleak" demographic forecast can be changed; If the State of Israel invests in informing about the unpopular area of the importance of bringing children into the world - maybe the secular public will stop thinking like in Europe, about a family of two children and a dog. When people start to understand the damage it causes - negative demographic growth - maybe they will change their minds and predictions. In Europe, they will probably understand this too late, after Islam has eaten every good part there and may even rule de facto. I was happy to hear recently that there is now a trend of having four children in the family. This is already progress.
At least now I don't feel guilty for regretting that I returned to Israel... The life of a Jew - you are never left alone. Not even in the Jewish state...
🙁
A time is coming when parasites will go to work and support themselves, go to the army and be like any citizen who pays taxes and contributes his share to society.
And by and large, if there is no coercion, I don't care what percentage they are of the population.
Be what you want in your home, believe in what you want, but don't live at the expense of others.
To Dan Shamir. You are right about the gradualism. Have you heard of the parable of the frog?
it's all nonsense. The ultra-orthodox will not prefer poverty and abandon religion.
there is nothing new under the sun,
Prof. Total included in the article what any reasonable human being with a head on his wings knows will happen, most of us just go on with our lives and for the time being repress what is happening before our eyes or not, but in my humble opinion this is a process that unless some factor X comes into play
For comparison, he doesn't seem to be unstoppable.
Don't forget that this is not a situation of 0 and 1, there are intermediate stages that we must go through every day and will probably get worse.
As far as I'm concerned, whether the ultra-Orthodox work or serve in the army doesn't really matter because of the majority
Half religious will make Israel a country I don't want to live in.
On the other hand, one can dream of how enlightenment, reason and progress penetrate the darkness of religion and belief and religious masses are redeemed into a better, saner, less delusional world.
It's already happened and it's not that far-fetched. The Enlightenment and Enlightenment movement freed the majority of Jews from the tyranny of the majority and the rabbi and led the Jews to the next stage. It is a shame that we are experiencing the painful retreat back to the darkness of religion and faith in the last twenty years.
Those who talk for many years about the deterioration (from self-insight and without serious research backing) and believe that the end will come, I prefer to encourage the enlightened, sane, productive, useful, high-quality and truly chosen people of my people to immigrate to New Zealand. I think it's more beautiful there... but on second thought, 2 nearby colonies are better: Australia and New Zealand. That way, when we get tired of one, we can skip to the teeth and feel comfortable. Assuming that the ultra-Orthodox parasites will not find their way there.
By the way, Philo of Alexandria talks about the Jewish settlement in Europe and Asia as a result of a population explosion in Israel (with the religious and Arab birth we are definitely in the right direction).
In this way we can make it easier for the Jews and the Arabs to multiply as they please and establish high-quality and enlightened Jewish colonies for us.
Ahhhhh… what dreams….. well, I earned my 5 minutes of fantasy this week.
A Hared masquerading as a secular Hared:
If you ever have something to say - you should say it.
Until then - it's a shame
And what about the solution to force them to be ultra-Orthodox in their homes, but without this removing them from work and without affecting the parshasi and the education of the rest of the residents. And Mr. Haredi - there is another, better solution, a mass repetition of the question and not sporadically and sporadically as is the case today.
Wow, what a fear! I'm shaking all over with fear, I won't sleep well at night since I learned that I will have to support the ultra-Orthodox for another 20 years, I don't know what to do with the ultra-Orthodox anymore, I hope that by then there will only be ultra-orthedim in the country, and only they will take care of themselves, they will go to the army, they Factories will be opened, they will take care of the import and export of goods, they will deal with the rising crime in the country, sorry - I'm wrong, I remembered - there will only be ultra-Orthodox here, so surely there won't be a rising crime here, so what is left for us to do here? One of two: or leave the country, like everyone else does. Or be a real Haredi and stay here - Haredi from Holon.
I think that if the level of technology in 2030 will not allow such a large existence of religious people, an explanation:
As the level of technology increases, a larger environment of information is created that was not accessible to all types of people, and this information can and will change their way of thinking.
The more an ultra-orthodox youth is exposed to information that the community in which he grew up did not give him access to, the more likely he will choose a more "secular" way of life.
For sure, I'm buying me a grave plot in Australia. Very few care. Most of the population thinks that in the meantime it is possible to live with it in peace. When they sober up - it will be too late.
You should take care of the ticket to Australia and Yapa one hour before (before we can enter there).