"Now is the time for the theorists to give an explanation for the observed phenomena, and there is a reasonable chance that they will get along with the theory of relativity" says Prof. Goldberg
299,792,458 meters per second. This is the speed of light that cannot be exceeded, regardless of which reference system is used. This is the basic conclusion, and it cannot be exceeded even by a few kilometers per hour, as it is claimed that packets of neutrino particles launched from the CERN facility in Geneva did and were absorbed in a garage located in an artificial cave that branches off from a tunnel along Autostrada 24 in Italy and is used as a parking garage for heavy equipment.
Prof. Jacques Goldberg from the Faculty of Physics at the Technion is the only Israeli who participated in the neutrino experiment. In an interview with the Hidan website, he explains that now is the great time for theorists to find an explanation, and most likely the explanation will be one that is consistent with the theory of relativity, such as checking the effect of the passage of neutrino particles through 732 kilometers of rock.
"In the framework of Einstein's limited theory of relativity, which he published in 1905, there is a basic premise that the speed of light is a universal constant and in any system we examine we will get the same answer. The meaning of the speed of light being constant is that nothing can exceed it, no body, no matter, no particle. Particles can reach this speed exactly if their mass is mathematically zero. If the mass is greater than mathematical zero, no matter how small the particle cannot reach this speed. That is, it is a universal constant built into nature.
How did you perform the experiment?
"We created a beam of particles called neutrinos in one of CERN's accelerators (not in the giant accelerator, but in the SPS - Super Positron Synchrotron accelerator which also serves the physicists for research and also feeds the protons to the big accelerator). They know how to extract neutrino particles from this accelerator and direct them as much as possible in the direction of an artificial cave located in Italy at a distance of 732 kilometers and the distance is measured with a deviation of only 20 centimeters. "
"It should be noted that we built this experiment for another purpose - the search for the mass of the neutrino.
In this context We published a discovery 15 months ago According to which there are 3 types of neutrinos in nature, the riddle that occupies everyone is what is the mass of the neutrino. Every attempt to measure it in a conventional way gave an answer compatible with zero considering the measurement errors until they theoretically invented a method that describes the neutrino as a wave and by interfering waves you can reach a very high precision in the mass, this is a quantum phenomenon that is very difficult to explain in everyday language and it causes that a neutrino that comes out A Genevan belonging to a certain family (Mio) changes its 'genes' after a certain distance and becomes a neutrino of a different type (Tau) and we found initial proof of this phenomenon. We noticed that at least for one of the three types, its mass is different from mathematical zero, that's why we built our experiment and that's our main concern, but it turns out that the experiment also produced an unexpected result.
We shot a neutrino from Geneva into this cave and with precise clocks we measured when the neutrino left Geneva and when it arrived at the cave in Italy and we know the distance between the take off and the landing place. Divide the distance by time and the result is the neutrino speed. It turns out that our finding, and it is very technically sound, shows that the particles arrived earlier than expected. Although this is a short amount of time, it is not negligible, that is, according to the measurements we made, the neutrinos moved at a speed higher than the speed of light.
If indeed they exceeded the speed of light, this is probably a problem of interpretation. Technically there is not much doubt that the result is correct, in my opinion there can be dozens of explanations for the reason that the neutrino arrives before the time we would expect it to arrive if it were moving at the speed of light and I am not a big follower of those who say that this happens because the neutrino contradicts the theory of relativity. I'm sure there is an alternative explanation that won't cause riots, but not so simple because otherwise we would know it."
"An important note: the neutrino moves in a straight line, it cannot be tilted by magnetism, it has no electric charge. The straight line connecting the takeoff point in Geneva to the landing point in Italy passes through 730 kilometers of rock. This requires treating neutrinos as if they were a bunch of waves, a cluster of waves, not a point of matter with zero magnitude but a cluster of waves. The calculation of the passage of a cluster of waves through 730 kilometers of stone is not a simple division of the kind done in the sixth grade, but something very complicated in theoretical physics. This has not been done to date by anyone because they haven't thought about it and therefore I am quite sure, as much as a person can be sure, that the explanation for the phenomenon is not in destroying the theory of relativity but in understanding what happens when a bunch of neutrino waves pass through 730 kilometers of stone."
I also say without shame that I am not able to perform this calculation, we will have to use theorists. The public and scientists unfortunately react with great enthusiasm, hello Einstein. At least it should be checked before declaring the death of the theory of relativity.
"We as experimental physicists think that our job is to make correct measurements and report our findings, the value we found and the measurement errors. In the article we wrote about the subject that is currently occupying the media, there are only results of this type of measurement that went to the end. The limit of the measurements itself is an amazing thing because no one has done it before. We measured the time difference between the neutrino's takeoff and its landing in Italy with an uncertainty of ten billionths of a second (ten nanoseconds). We measured the real distance of 730 kilometers with an accuracy of 20 centimeters, people sweated for years to reach this accuracy and it is this accuracy that gave us the result that the neutrino arrives 60 nanoseconds earlier than we thought with an uncertainty of 10 nanoseconds, the probability that it will approach zero is zero. We did this to say the neutrinos arrive so and so billionths of a second before or after the time when the light was supposed to arrive."
Goldberg attacks his colleagues in the research group who were quick to eulogize the theory of attribution and take it to the media. "Our role as Zionists is not to determine whether it does destroy attribution or not. It's fascinating to know and important to know, but it's the job of our colleagues who are theorists and they also need to be given a living. My only intervention on the side of interpretation I would like to emphasize that all troubles begin with people speaking with overconfidence. A person who is unable to question even what he is sure he understands, a person who is unable to question what he thinks, no matter what subject he is not worthy of being called a scientist. Maybe he is a politician who has his "I believe" but not a scientist. A scientist who is unable to question what he did himself and the explanation he thinks for it is not serious and the rash of nonsense surrounding the measurement we did is the best example that can be given to this matter." Prof. Goldberg concludes.
23 תגובות
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20957-dimensionhop-may-allow-neutrinos-to-cheat-light-speed.html?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=dn20957
Rani
According to the formula, the parameter is not negative but imaginary (root of a negative number).
One of the possible physical interpretations is that an entity that passes the speed of light - a tachyon - has never been at a speed lower than the speed of light.
happy new year
Peace,
If the measurement is correct, what does this actually say about the Lorentz transformation?
The formula has a root whose parameter becomes negative if the speed of light is exceeded.
Does this mean that the formula may only be a good approximation of the true law of nature?
Is it possible that a small regularization of the formula (neutrino factor) will be a sufficient extension to cover the new case?
Happy New Year,
Rani
"If indeed that neutrino moves faster than light, it is thanks to it being a wave and not a particle." (A sentence I wrote in my first reference to the previous article:
https://www.hayadan.org.il/neutrino-pass-spead-of-light-2309114/
"Every attempt to measure it in a conventional way gave an answer compatible with zero, considering the measurement errors, until they theoretically invented a method that describes the neutrino as a wave, and by entangling waves it is possible to reach a very high precision in the mass, this is a quantum phenomenon that is very difficult to explain in everyday language..." (sentence of Professor Zak Goldberg from the above article).
I wrote my sentence before I knew what Goldberg wrote here. I'm just an "amateur", but I would like to orient the professionals to the possibility that the concept of neutrinos as a bunch of waves is not just a theoretical trick but reality itself! I will go further and claim that if the bunch of waves that create the neutrinos are not waves that transmit a signal but the waves that create space (and the existence of particles arises from their superposition), then it is also possible to get the appearance of a particle moving faster than light. In such a case, the particle measured in Italy is not necessarily the same particle that came out of France, but a copy of it in the cycle created by superposition...
For those interested:
http://www.q-spacetheory.org
Goldberg is right when he attacks his colleagues who were quick to eulogize the theory of relativity. There are so many reasons for measurement problems in an experiment.
1. The distance measurement is wrong.
2. Calibrating the sealed watches is problematic.
3. The delay of the sensor measurements.
4. The neutrino generation time is not known precisely and it probably happens within a range of 1 km along the graffiti pole. (although they claim it's negligible)
5. The mathematical calculation of the speed of waves and not particles.
6. After 3 years the scientists need more money and therefore make headlines.
In short, there are many reasons for errors and even though the result is clear, it is still in the same order of magnitude as the possible error. There is still a long distance between the results until relativity is disproved.
Laronen - Light is affected by gravity, see the value of the gravitational acceleration of light, which tilts the path of light... but as far as I know the speed is not meant to change due to gravity, this is the peculiarity of the finite speed of light, the wavelength may be affected, and also its trajectory, but not the speed.
Could it be possible that very fast bodies interact only little with matter if at all? Just like a very fast ball can pass through a block of plasticine hanging on a rope without moving the rope, while a slow ball will cause the rope to move. This could explain the neutrality of neutrinos, tachyons, and more.
I would be happy to receive an explanation from people who understand the field. According to the theory of general relativity, time depends on the gravitational field. That's why when they say that the speed of light is about 300 thousand km per second. Will every observer regardless of which gravitational field he is in measure the same speed of light? That is, is the speed of light invariant to the gravitational field as well?
the delay of the detector,
How come they didn't think of that? Maybe the experimenter was drunk? Have some faith in the scientists that before they make such a bombastic statement they check all the trivial possibilities.
According to the theory of relativity, the distance should be shortened (Lorentz factor), the neutrino traveled a shorter path and thus arrived first, in this calculation it seems as if it exceeded the speed of light. ???
I asked on my Facebook page... you can browse, because I also gave links to articles there.
Velocity of the neutrino = distance from the axis to the OPERA detector at the Gran Sesso Laboratory/time of travel of the CNGS beam. A CNGS beam was sent to the OPERA detector. Simulations, measurements were performed, errors, uncertainties, measurements, calculations, geodesy were calculated, errors were taken into account, the reference system was precisely calculated, etc. Seemingly a simple formula: speed = distance/time. When taking the speed of light in a vacuum and the muon neutrinos with an average energy of 17 GeV, the average speed difference between the speed of light in a vacuum and the speed of the measured neutrino was small.
Was there a dielectric medium, a diffuser? This is a vacuum. So it's a bunch of speed? phase speed? also not. So what is the explanation? Raised the possibility of Chernikov radiation.
Imagine if Einstein were alive today and they would ask him: give an explanation for what they found. I know Einstein's style of explanations. I read all his published correspondence with his colleagues - in some three or four volumes. Imagine if Einstein were alive today and they would ask him: Give an explanation for the neutron experiment that was carried out. I know Einstein's style of explanations. I read all of his published correspondence with his colleagues - some three or four volumes of Einstein's writings. Einstein once told someone that if you find one experimental refutation of his theory, he gives it up. But Einstein did not believe that the postulate of constancy of the speed of light and the principle that the speed of light is an upper limit would be violated. And so he also said that he was ready to give up his theory in the face of a refutation in the experiment, because he did not believe that there would be such a refutation...
Did they consider that the response speed of the light detector is different from the speed of the neutrino detector?
I assume they did a distance calibration using a light beam, but then there is a BIAS caused by the response speed of the detector.
If the delay is different between light detectors and neutrino detectors, then this could explain the results.
For that matter, the modern definition of a meter is the length a light beam travels in T seconds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre
Because measuring the time a light beam passes requires a detector and therefore the delay of the detector may have an effect.
To a layman's question
The experimental results talked about an uncertainty of ten nanoseconds which is much smaller than the measured deviation of sixty nanoseconds. So it doesn't seem to me that salvation will come from here
Shabbat Shalom
Sabdarmish Yehuda
On second thought, it's better to leave each comment thread in its own article
Sabdarmish Yehuda
It was claimed in the article that the goal was to measure the mass of the neutrino. Doesn't the uncertainty principle mean that the measurement of the position of a particle along with its speed can be known to an accuracy that depends on the mass of the particle?
If we don't know the mass of the particle, doesn't that limit our ability to measure its speed?
To my father
It is recommended that you connect the two articles on this topic because the responses correspond to both.
I will move my last response from there to here as well
Shabbat Shalom
Sabdarmish Yehuda
a question:
Has the speed of the neutrino ever been measured for such a large distance, in a different medium such as air or vacuum?
If so, was the measured result the same as the speed of light?
point,
It is likely that before a scientist releases any information to the media, he carefully examines his results... I am sure that the distance between the point of departure of the neutrino and where it was discovered was measured to the exact centimeter so that we can talk about an earthquake that changed the distance by 18 meters?? ? I assume/hope you were joking
Regarding your neutrino theory. As far as photons are concerned, dark matter is transparent. The speed of light has been measured with incredible precision in countless attempts and serves as the basis for our understanding of the universe. If the measurement of the speed of light depended on the distance the light traveled through some material, the experimenters would measure a different speed each time. There is indeed a dispersion in the value measurement of the speed of light, but this dispersion does not come close at all to the difference measured in the reported experiment. The bottom line is that there is no chance that there is a fundamental error in the value of the speed of light resulting from a systematic error that originates from the fact that the vacuum is not perfect.
In any case, in my opinion, the speed of the neutrino is greater than the speed of the photon, and its speed is the true "speed of light". And not the speed of electromagnetic waves moving in "emptiness" because of which space is not completely smooth (empty).
Interaction with virtual particles or dark matter slows down photons, an interaction that does not exist with the elusive neutrino.
Another simple explanation could simply be that the distance changed by 18 meters due to earthquakes. 🙂
When was this distance last measured?