Last Friday Sivan Klingbeil and Shani Shilo published the article "I have a different country - why almost 40% of Israelis are considering leaving" in the Haaretz supplement. Although the economy was in first place, the anxiety and contempt for education also play a role in the feeling that this is not our country, and the so-called lost decade in higher education did not contribute to the desire of educated people to stay
Last Friday Sivan Klingbeil and Shani Shilo published the article in Mosaf Haaretz "I have another country - why almost 40% of Israelis are considering leaving." In the article, interviewees say that they didn't have a bad time in Israel, but still got up and left to live a more normal life.
"According to the data of the Central Bureau of Statistics, immigration to Israel is indeed positive, but a survey conducted for the "Haaretz" supplement by the research company Marketing Information C. Islands. Directed by Noam Raz and Merev Shapira, it shows that 37% of Israelis state that they are considering moving to another country sometime in the future. It is worth noting that only 2% of all those surveyed indicate that in the end they are really sure that they will immigrate to another country, and it is only a matter of time."
According to the survey, most of those who want to immigrate are actually the educated, the so-called Ashkenazim, who supposedly once founded the state and were all-powerful (it doesn't matter that in practice these are descendants of Holocaust survivors, and even in the third generation of the state there are already very many of mixed origin, if that really matters in 2013 , except in a certain sector which we will expand on later) and today at best they have become another sector. "Demography researcher Noam Menela is quoted in the article and points out that the local connection has weakened, because the state has with its own hands broken the thread of belonging that binds it and its citizens in a process that has lasted for decades. The unequal service, the religious extremism, the economic neglect of the weak, the total privatization. The country is becoming more religious and people who define themselves as liberals find it difficult to connect with it."
Later, a number of media outlets and academic researchers published data according to which immigration from Israel is on a similar scale in terms of the rate in the population to third world countries and not to the developed countries. I did not fall off my chair to hear this data.
Who followed the series Haunted country In the last decade, he could understand that something in the country is wrong. Instead of honoring the academics and the educated, the high-tech entrepreneurs and the Nobel laureates, those who are respected in the country are the Babas, those who are respected are the Aleg cultural heroes (Jacky, Koti and others who are recommended to listen to what Roy Bar-Nathan has to say about them in his satire program) What's closing' before channel 10 closes).
Prof. Oz Almog writes: "Benyamin Ze'ev Herzl and his partners in the Zionist movement saw a Western society shedding its traditional clothing and wearing modern clothing, and realized that something great was happening before their eyes. Herzl loved technology and admired scientists, inventors and technological entrepreneurs, such as Ferdinand de Lespas, a Suez Canal miner, who was the hero of his youth. In his vision, he also saw the Zionist revolution carried on by the wave of scientific innovations, and believed that only through the integration of the Jews in the global technology revolution would their independence and sovereignty be achieved."
Where is this vision of Herzl and where is today's reality? In a video distributed by an ultra-Orthodox organization, Herzl is accused of a lot of bad diseases, which did not exist and were not created, as if he wanted to christen the Jews of Vienna so that they would stop suffering from anti-Semitism, that he wanted to accept the British proposal to establish a Jewish state in Uganda, to eliminate the religion and all kinds of other nonsense. Science is also seen by them as a bad thing. Since the 18th century, the word Haskalah itself has been considered a dirty word among the ultra-Orthodox establishment - yes, even for Chabad Hassidim, those who advocate wisdom and intelligence, that is, Haskalah, think exactly the opposite.
My friend Yaron Yedan, the head of the Or party (there is nothing to do with the name of the site, I did not know it when I founded the site, nor did I later when I gave it its current name, see also the note at the end of the article) said that it is forbidden to bring the edition of the Talmud of the ultra-Orthodox rabbi Adin Steinzalz into ultra-orthodox yeshivot because it is Contains illustrations to illustrate the text and illustration is a bad thing because it smacks of 'education'. These ultra-Orthodox don't forget Herzl's admiration for his science.
All the deliberate actions of the governments so far, and also all the omissions of all those who were supposed to fight the phenomenon and did not do so, brought us as Dr. Dan Ben David stated immediately after the publication of the Taub Center's report (which we reported on in the previous issue), in an interview with the London and Kirschenbaum program: State walked on the way
In fact, if once the ultra-Orthodox were something you only see when you go to Bnei Brak or some neighborhoods in Jerusalem or even what used to be the enclave of Ramat Vizhnitz in Haifa before an entire section of the Hadar Carmel became one big Ramat Wizhnitz), it has become a nationwide phenomenon. In fact, the mayors, yes, even Huldai who speaks well of religious education today, paved the way for a halachic state when they closed state schools and opened ultra-orthodox schools in their place.
When you add the anxiety, the deterioration of the economic situation, the worship of the fathers and the ideologists by the politicians and tycoons, the deterioration of the state education system (the report in which Israel allegedly improved in mathematics is called into question in light of the revelations that were made after its publication about the manipulations that were done to reach this result), we come to the conclusion that Prof. Ben David is right, and the Halacha state is on its way and only our politicians don't see the huge elephant in the room.
P.S. Attempts to encourage ultra-Orthodox students to study at university without core studies are also being made in a most awkward way and cause discrimination to increase instead of reducing it.
We are today after a lost decade in which the universities shrunk and stopped accepting young scientists, on the other hand, billions of shekels were allocated to the yeshiva world without requiring core studies. The economy has also been hijacked from us when, on the one hand, the tycoons turn the economy into a closed institution that only those who belong to it can exist, and in front of most of the middle class there is a glass ceiling, and on the other hand, there is a group that chooses poverty, and lives at the expense of that middle class that does not have the money to hire accountants and evade taxes as they do the tycoons In such a situation, it is clear that there is a feeling among that middle class that this is not their country.
Such people, who grew up here, who have nowhere to advance in academia and in industry (except in high-tech) are prevented from advancing if they do not have a family connection to tycoons, rightly feel that the country was stolen from them, instead of complaining about the spoiled Ashkenazim (who in many cases are not Ashkenazim at all) it is better to do something To return the country to those who contributed the most to it - both in the economy, and in security, and not to parasites on the system. We need to restore the positive connotation to the word education, even among the ultra-Orthodox, and we need to make the country back into a place where the next Nobel Prize winners are prepared and not more wasted people with training that does not allow them to work.
It is true that large parts of the US, and perhaps even most of the continent, are plagued by ignorance and ignorance, and if it weren't for the immigration of educated people from all over the world, the US would have already sunk, but nevertheless there are still opportunities on the east coast and the west coast, and there is Canada that needs people with an entrepreneurial spirit. The East is also waiting for such people - China, India, Singapore. There are no barriers to growth like there are here.
And a few words about me. Since my views on the matter are known, I recently agreed to Yaron Yadan's request to run for the Knesset on the list of the Or party (sixth place, which by all accounts is not realistic). If I wanted to go into politics, I would do so in a more established party, but here we are dealing with people who express the same ideas that I advocate. Ideas that, instead of being the mainstream of a country that wants life, are considered illegitimate, so much so that Attila Shumpelvi refused my request to meet and do an item about the party and its views.
43 תגובות
Jacob
You are so right it hurts…
A collection of nonsense. I do understand why many want to leave. But many problems noted here exist in the rest of the world. Do you think that in the USA or England people talk about Shakespeare all day? In prime time you will see guys like Justin Bieber or Miley Cyrus...
Is the inability to create jobs that match education an Israeli problem? Absolutely not... a worldwide problem!
Soon you will also accuse Israel of a hole in the ozone or some asteroid that is approaching us...
Israel's main problems are religious extremism, the real estate bubble, and the inequality in recruitment. They are serious enough for us to want to run away from here, it should invent more problems.
Miracles,
The problem, as I argued before, is that the discriminated end up becoming the discriminated against, if affirmative action is allowed for an unlimited amount of time.
rose
The surest way to preserve discrimination is to do corrective discrimination.
Avi,
thank you for your response.
The wisdom in affirmative action is to stop and examine the situation. To ask, have we reached the situation we wanted, that is, have the marginalized already become a part of society, in every sense, or have we already crossed the line? I mean, the downtrodden became the downfalls??
There is no need to act blindly, because if we do, we have not solved any problem, as you say.
How much is it in the past? If it's a few generations, it doesn't matter anymore, affirmative action will become discrimination for everything, because it has nothing to fix anymore.
Regarding the Mizrahi/Ashkenazi issue
I don't think the matter is resolved
In Western countries, for example, there is a leadership of affirmative action
Excessive opportunity is given to people who have been discriminated against in the past, in a demonstrable way, to allow them to be part of society.
Anyone who dares to speak badly to those discriminated layers can get into serious trouble
In Israel, for example, you hear things like "nerd Ashkenazi" or about the Mizrahim it is much more difficult, as Itzik writes.
I am not claiming that there is no discrimination in other places, on the contrary
But in other places there is politeness and people cannot do as they please
And, they can't verbally hurt other people whenever they feel like it
There are rules and people follow the rules (mostly)
I'm not in favor of "robot" people, on the contrary, I like flight
But when freedom turns into anarchy - it's not a good situation
Miracles,
It's true, life in Israel is really good
And you can live quite well if you are lukewarm and know how to push yourself
There are people, on the other hand, who know how to push themselves, but don't know how to push others (not that they should)
And then a situation arises, even if you pushed yourself and achieved beautiful things, it is very possible that you will find yourself saving a shekel
To exist on your own, without the help of parents
But that can be overcome, because you're not really a person who likes money, it's just to feel secure
The point is different
If you want to fulfill yourself, because you've always dreamed of being like that - but you don't push others (not that you should)
So you probably won't get to the district you want
But if society learns to be more open, more accepting of different people, more supportive of other people's success
It's a healthier, more successful company.
I don't think you need big budgets to achieve this. Enough good education, good values and caring. The most important thing to understand is that the success of something else will not come at my expense
And my success, will not come at the expense of the success of something else
It shouldn't be that way
I agree with every word in the article
People who contribute to their country, in any possible way, if it is by fighting in Israel's wars, serving in the army, contributing to science, contributing to the economy and many other things
You feel that they also want to receive on a personal level, they want recognition and appreciation for what they contributed and want to see that it matters, that they did not contribute for nothing.
A person who wants to study law, medicine, computer engineering or similar things can do so abroad. Why is it not possible in our country? Why do you have to compete and compete and you can't make your dreams come true?
And how is it that people with extensive education receive minimum wage, so they are unable to exist on their own?
It is indeed good in Israel - this is the land of our ancestors, this is the place to which we belong
But if we want to fulfill ourselves, because we only live once, I believe it should be done
And of course to return to Israel and help improve things here.
extension
This is in 2006
For miracles and respected skeptics
Thank you for your response
My friend and I (he is also from Mizrahi) successfully graduated with good grades, a bachelor's degree in engineering, in proper faculties,
We did not find a job for a year and a half, when our classmates whose last name sounded better quickly responded.
My friend changed his last name to a more neutral name, and quickly found a job, so although there is no overt racism, but if you send the same resume for an engineer position, under a Mizrahi (and heavy!) last name or an Ashkenazi last name - you will be surprised to find significant differences in the responses
And that's why I mentioned my origin
איציק
Today, sectarian origin has no impact on the chances of economic progress, except perhaps in a very limited number of niches.
Nor do the ultra-orthodox have a significant impact on the economy.
Most economic problems have arisen because an economic oligarchy has taken over the nodes of the economy. Apart from the fact that the economic oligarchy robs the rest of the citizens of tens of percent of their income, in complicated ways, they also create an economic climate in which large parts of the public are exploited as employees or even become unemployed in an overt or covert way. By the term "hidden unemployed" I mean an employee who is employed in a position that does not reflect his good skills. I don't think there is a chance in the coming decades to change this bad economic climate in the country as far as employees are concerned. The self-employed have a better chance of getting out of the trap but some can only do so at the price of surrendering to the unfair rules of the game in the economy.
In short: if you return to Israel as an employee, your financial future is not in danger, especially if you are not young.
איציק
It seems to me that the problem is your orientalism. Otherwise, why do you mention it? Who is interested in this (besides you..)?
A real and worrying article,
I served in an elite unit and studied at university for a bachelor's degree,
I am of eastern origin, and I felt and saw that the country did not give me the opportunity to advance financially, according to my skills and hard work,
There is not enough space to list all the reasons for my disappointment with the State of Israel,
I felt like a sucker, taken advantage of, without a real chance, and that in order to succeed you have to be connected to a con man or corrupt (of course there are exceptions but they also sacrificed too much to get ahead or they are much more talented and successful than me)
I immigrated to the USA, it wasn't easy, many wars, but there is light at the end of the tunnel, I don't see myself returning to earn a living in Israel without a few million dollars to provide me with a steady income, without having to fight for the shekel here,
I miss the language, food, family members and the sea, but feel that the country is good for the rich and hope that I can be rich enough soon, so that I can live in my native land with dignity and not as a slave to the corrupt government and the system that tramples the lovers of the country!!
I'm not sure I'll succeed, but I know that here I at least have a chance!!
Yair Ben-Ad
This is also a way of denying the problem...
.... And what exactly awaits all the "dreamers" in the land of unlimited possibilities? …. Those who did it in Israel will do it abroad, and those who don't, in most cases won't do it abroad, and this was proven a long time ago.... Beiti, after finishing high school in Southern California, packed her belongings and returned to the country that, according to the article, is described as a country that eats its inhabitants, she was asked To the solution of the puzzling act, she answered: USA is my house, but Israel is my home
And the one who understands will understand!!!!!!!
A., Haredi
I have yet to hear of someone who lost a loved one who studied Torah.... He who thinks that Torah is better than my son's life - may he burn in Hell. I'm sorry for the blunt language but that's how I feel.
This is not what I wrote, I am quoting it from the mouth of those who said these things. I personally believe that today 'Ashkenazi' is also a third generation in Israel - almost all of them are of mixed origin.
I stopped reading here - most of those who want to immigrate are actually the educated, and what are known as Ashkenazim - be honest with yourselves, how many of you came with an education from Poland and Lithuania and how many of their descendants are educated?
Peres who didn't finish high school and calls himself an intellectual? Or Dr. Yair Lapid? Or his father in Israel studied law? But beyond specific examples, you should look around you at your Ashkenazi neighbors and friends and come to conclusions, not at the data of the Central Bureau of Polish Propaganda
Great article, nice of Walla to provide an interesting link and not just a populist one;
Regarding the education system mentioned here - it seems that it "educates" students to survive, as it tries to survive itself. There are few opportunities and few teachers at all to take advantage of them, to contribute to children a real education. The current format neither requires nor asks for it.
Beyond that, survival seems to be the name of the game for so many people that the term "vision" does not play a significant role at all. Maybe economic, but no future vision seeps into everyday consciousness. If so, it is not in vain that people predict their future in countries that are on the way to - or even already embody - brighter conditions of life in which there are fewer complications that violate peace of mind or economic comfort or the possibility of employment or the liberal mentality
Miracles
There are those who serve - like me
And there are those whose contribution to the people of Israel in yeshiva is greater.
On this site, the appreciation for learning the Torah is not something... I guess this stems from ignorance or entrenched antagonism.
As someone who did serve, he says that learning the Torah when done "for its own sake" is no less important than serving in the army, but more so.
Our existence is not only "scientific" but very spiritual. Those who do not feel this will find it difficult to understand why studying at a desk for the purpose of studying (and not producing a diploma) is so important.
orthodox
Whoever does not serve in the army because of "religious" reasons - betrays his own religion.
Is this your vision?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x3U5iXEZ34
Forcing your lifestyle on someone who doesn't think like you? You don't believe in democracy.
BSD
You should update yourself a bit so that they don't say that on a site that claims to be "educated", ignorance is celebrated. Haredim study with Gemara which has drawings. Haredim who fail to persevere in Torah study, study in higher education institutions and enlist. Beyond that, in order to change the familiar narrative that because of the ultra-Orthodox, everyone will leave... The nation of Israel is getting stronger and stronger and as you mentioned in the study - indeed the country is becoming religious. Messiah is coming in God.
A little late... Notes for those who wave the amazing achievements of Israel and/or its descendants as proof that the situation is benign:
- In any society, especially a polar one like Israel, intelligent people who have benefited from parental/environmental investment (e.g. education) together with those whose education and goals do not promote GDP, dream in one subjugation. The question is what is the ratio in the population between the strong/strengthening populations and the weak/weakening ones - and what are the trends in this ratio. Clearly, in Israel, the situation is getting worse every day.
- When the residents of a country no longer feel that their children's future is in the place where they grew up - it is always the stronger and more successful who quickly find a country that will be happy to receive them. The fact that out of the (increasingly small) percentage of successful Israelis many end up in more attractive countries is not evidence of the success of the system. Even backward countries in rapid decline (Pakistan - for example) export doctors and professors to the world, and this is mainly an indication that the situation is getting worse.
- The American neighborhood is indeed a microcosm of what is happening on a global level. While an educated person anxious about the education and health of his children in a neighborhood of a deteriorating city (Detroit, for example) can pack up his belongings and find a relative paradise 5 kilometers away and at a price he can afford - the Israeli whose "neighborhood" is deteriorating in most cases cannot afford alternative living in neighborhoods/cities Israel's bubble (from an economic point of view) and immigration to a country where there are - at least - good neighborhoods at a reasonable price - becomes a beckoning option.
I personally, with all the personal and historical pain, gave up this struggle and found my place in the seas.
Even the amazing gas reserves will only help Israel to become - more and more - a state of every parasite, and the increase in power of the sane tribe in the last elections is, unfortunately, probably only the swan song of the Zionist class.
The Ashkenazim, the descendants of the builders of the country, are the victims of their parents' exile gardens, and perhaps we need more "selection" in Europe.
As an ultra-orthodox resident of Miami who came from Israel with a master's degree in philosophy (a graduate of the University of Florida), I can say that the article is very trendsetting. One of the things that all those who come to the USA (at least those I have met) tell me is that fate brought us here, and the unity of the people of Israel and the feeling of love between the brothers that exists here kept us here.
As an ultra-Orthodox, I left the country because it was hard for me to see my brother hate me just because of different opinions. If there was a connecting bridge like there is here in Israel, the country would flourish. But right now brother eats his brother and each diminishes the other, and both sides lose. How do you say in the article that the ultra-Orthodox don't work, and then someone writes in response that seeing ultra-Orthodox women with heels is recognized, this is a result of education. Instead of promoting the matter and seeing it as a positive step, he speaks against it, so why do you want them not to go to work? It has to start somewhere.
And that's why I'm angry in Israel that education breeds hatred in both camps and it's a shame because it will really destroy this country
Another explanation of how I got to 10-20 years.
I work in high-tech. I graduated high school 20 years ago.
I am among the adults in the company, including other companies that my friends work for.
Conclusion Most of the workers who carry hi-tech on their shoulders finished high school less than 20 years ago.
Deterioration of higher education?
I graduated 13 years ago, a degree that most of the employees younger than me graduated in the last decade.
Logical questions:
If the good Jews want to emigrate from here because of privatization and capitalism, why are they leaving for the USA and not Venezuela?
If the good ones leave and the bad ones stay, how does the GNP per capita increase and narrow the gap with Europe?
If education is so screwed up, how come the concentration of successful start-ups is the second in the world after the USA?
The start-ups are built on young people who finished studying in the last ten, twenty years, not 30 or 40 years ago.
How is the number of patents per capita one of the highest in the world?
For those who want facts and not demagoguery, welcome to my comments to the previous post A country haunted by demons.
the guide of the universe
I didn't fully understand the story about the American neighborhood to what is happening in Israel-
10 percent is a lot in terms of immigration.
Father, thanks for the edit. Now it is perfectly fine - as far as I can tell.
It's just a shame that the content is so bleak... Unfortunately, I agree with what was written, at least for the most part.
Answer one by one
It's no secret that the state education system in Israel is a poor system. How do intelligent people grow up who want to run away from here? In every class of 40 students you will always find 3-5 students who learn and progress even if they are taught nonsense. These are the students who in less than two decades will abandon us.
In the past, check in the United States when a good neighborhood collapses to become a neighborhood of poverty and crime. It turns out that the mix between the different populations in the neighborhood is delicate and very sensitive. It is enough for 10% of the middle-class whites to decide that the neighborhood may deteriorate, and sell to people weaker than them, to very quickly deteriorate the neighborhood into one that no one wants to live in, except for a few hard-working Negro single parents and their children who are organized in gangs.
The flood is not here yet, but its buds are on the way. You can already smell the dampness.
When I see at the entrance to my office, women in business suits, on high heels, kissing a mezuzah upon entering, and trying to sell their wares in tearful Hebrew, with the breadth of an ant world, I understand what the Israeli education system produces.
Ori- do you have a division by age for this?
Why do you think it takes so long from school to entering the job market?
3 years for the army + 4 years for a degree on average - how is that 20 years?
Do you really think that what affects is the studies of the first grade?
If you don't teach well in first grade, then a whole generation of students has gone?
To the one who wrote: "This brain drain means that Israelis are attractive employees abroad.
How does this happen if our education system is bad?" At least two answers come to mind:
1. These are the graduates of our education system as it was twenty to forty years ago, not our education system as it is now, the fruits of which we can only judge in at least ten to twenty years.
2. A large part of them were certainly educated outside the formal system, even then. Their achievements indicate a combination of the formal education system, the education they received at home, classes, private lessons, and more (not necessarily in this order).
One might think that the Gentiles are dying for us
The picture - simply nostalgia for what used to be.
Every word carved in stone !
I just didn't understand the connection of the attached photo... (Not serving in the IDF for extremists?) I would appreciate an explanation.
Abi, you write that almost 40% of Israelis are considering leaving." When was the situation different? At the beginning of the 20th century when 90% of the immigrants of the second aliyah went down? In 66 when the last to leave was asked to turn off the light? What's new?
Guy Bachor claims that we are doing well. What, not to believe him?
It's a long article - I didn't read it all - I just pointed out that Israel has an agenda and can tilt anything in its direction -
It's funny that on the one hand we invest very little in the education system and on the other hand we have too many academics who go abroad to look for work.
What should be done to prevent this escape abroad?
This brain drain means that Israelis are attractive if employed abroad.
How does this happen if our education system is bad?
The reason for this, in my opinion, is that although our education system is probably nothing - due to the fact that our academy costs a lot of money - the students who study there take their studies seriously - and therefore we have better results than you would expect if you were to look at the education system.
What to do in the academy there is limited space 0 there is a limit to how many universities and colleges can be in Israel - and there are many talented academics who have found a job abroad - this is not bad - there was no hole here that they could fill so they bring benefit to someone elsewhere.
Free global market.
The only thing the state can do is encourage growth and encourage the establishment of new companies or branches of global companies in Israel.
For another, the article also says that there is no negative immigration, but it begins with an explanation that it is an ultra-Orthodox immigrant from the USA, whose children no longer study core studies. In other words, beyond the current generation that was educated in the US, most of this immigration will not contribute to the country but the opposite.
Regarding Kuti, I didn't write that he was stupid, I wrote that he was lazy.
Avi - the reporters have their own political affiliation -
Not everyone will give an opportunity to a competitor from a small party to get exposure - you are anonymous - and most of the media have an interest in it remaining - the attitude against the radicalization of the state - against the parasitism that the ultra-orthodox parties cultivate - all this already exists in other parties - such as the former change, Lapid Bahu's party and many centrist parties Somehow - Shinio once received a lot of votes mainly on an anti-Orthodox platform - Israel Beytinu is also a party that advocates the separation of religion from the state - it's not your ideas that are problematic - it's just that you are outside the club and no one has an interest in letting you in.
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Regarding the Haaretz survey-
It is better to take these with a very limited guarantee - Haaretz has earned the reputation of a left-wing newspaper with its honesty - and such a survey can easily be biased by agenda - the reality is that there is no negative immigration in Israel (the last time I checked) - I skimmed this article and the agenda there is clear .
When you are a left-wing newspaper and the government is a right-wing government, it is only natural to say how bad the situation is.
Good luck with the party! I didn't know she even existed. I finally have something to vote for.
Today, 50% study separately between boys and girls in the first grade!!
By the way, from acquaintance, Kuti is far from stupid...