Physicist Freeman Dyson claimed that extraterrestrial civilizations might leave a sign of their existence, infrared radiation emitted from a mantle prepared to absorb solar energy. Two special NASA telescopes are looking for this radiation
Yoram Ored, Galileo
In 1960, physicist Freeman Dyson proposed a possible way to locate advanced civilizations in deep space. Dyson argued that such civilizations would at some point in their development build giant spherical shells that would surround their mother sun. These envelopes are supposed to absorb the solar energy emanating from the mother sun and thus produce energy from it on a huge scale, which can satisfy the needs of an advanced civilization. The source of the material from which the spherical shell will be built is supposed to be a planet that will be broken up specifically to create the shell.
Neither Dyson nor other scientists who dealt with the matter gave their opinion on the type of materials from which the mantle will be constructed, and whether it will be one or more planets that will need to be dismantled - but it is very possible that even one planet will be enough, because the mantle could be very thin, which would allow the sun to be enveloped the whole These spherical envelopes are named after Dyson - Dyson Spheres. Admittedly, the solar radiation will hit the spherical shell and be blocked by it, but despite this, not all the radiation will be trapped inside the sphere: this is because part of it will turn into infrared radiation. This infrared radiation will be emitted into space, and observers outside the Dyson sphere will be able to detect it.
In 1983, a satellite named IRAS (IRAS - Infrared Astronomical Satellite) was launched, which scans the sky in the infrared range. Iris detected 250,000 sources of infrared radiation. Several researchers have tried to use this satellite to discover Dyson balls, but in vain. A retired physicist named Richard Carrigan, who worked at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Illinois in the United States, recently went through the data provided by IRAS in a thorough and detailed manner. Kerrigan discovered that almost all of them do not qualify as Dyson balls, but 17 of them may be Dyson balls. However, according to Kerrigan's own words, all 17 of these sources can easily be explained in a different way than Dyson balls. So, for example, they may be hydrogen clouds surrounding the suns, or the dust surrounding ancient suns.
Another problem raised by Edward Churchwell, an astronomer at the University of Wisconsin, is that the Iris satellite is not accurate enough to distinguish between individual stars, especially in dense areas of the sky such as the plane of the Milky Way (visible to our eyes as a white band stretching across the night sky). What is detected as a light source may, in fact, be the total summation of light fluxes coming from many stars rather than from one single star.
Dan Werthimer, senior scientist in the Search for Extra-Terrestrial (SETI Intelligence) project, the project to locate intelligent life outside the Earth, hopes that the Spitzer space telescope will help in the discovery of Dyson balls. Spitzer was launched in 2003 and its purpose is to track celestial objects in infrared radiation, and the resolution of the images obtained with it is 60 times greater than that of IRS.
Be that as it may, the 17 objects for which there is a possibility of being Dyson balls have already been added to the list of interesting objects of the SETI project, in order to continue examining them using radio radiation emitted from them as well as using laser signals that may be emitted from them.
The article was published in the February 2009 issue of the magazine "Galileo and Innovations"
41 תגובות
Hello everyone!
The aliens exist, scientists just don't know where and how to look.
First, they exist in us, but in other dimensions that science has not yet found a way to reach.
Second, they sometimes appear in us in different forms and since they are incomprehensible they are called by different names: demons, spirits, angels, fairies, etc.
There are many stories and legends throughout human history about meetings with aliens and they are heard in different peoples and different cultures in many languages and in many ways.
Perhaps the day will come and the way to reach the other dimensions will be found, not always the way is on a physical and material plane.
Creating energy from energy can certainly also exist from the gravitational pull of planets and they are more common than stars. After all, there is talk of advanced spaceships moving by increasing the force of attraction and repulsion of stars, so why not think about how to produce sustainable energy from this force?
Host of the Universe:
You can simply move it in a controlled manner from side to side - exactly for the things you want to do.
This is indeed one of the proposed solutions.
Usually in this case it is about two balls - one internal and one external when life is carried out between them - on the internal.
It is clear that the reference is to life on the inner side of the shell, on the side facing the sun. Otherwise, if they lived on the outside, where would they get solar radiation from?
When you spin a ball, around such a sun that is in its inner center, there will be no or almost no rotation at both poles. As you move away from the equator, your weight will decrease, until you finally fall towards the sun.
Pine:
First of all - both of you are only talking about one of the applications you are thinking about - that of a monolithic spherical shell.
The question here is whether you live on the inside or the outside of the shell.
I guess the host of the universe was talking about life on the inside of the shell.
There - if there is no rotation - there will be no gravitation from the side of the ball but only from the side of the sun. The only way to prevent falling towards the sun would be to spin the ball but that would only create sensible gravitation in the equatorial region.
You are right about living on the outside.
Host of the Universe:
I repeat: the logic of the structure comes from the definition of the use you want to make of it.
Here we are talking about collecting most of the star's energy (and as I remember - not actually by us but by any hypothetical extraterrestrials that we intend to locate through the change that this action makes to the emission of radiation from the star).
If you allow yourself to change the purpose of the structure then there is no obstacle to define a purpose that an excavation answers better.
guide of the universe,
Can you clarify what you meant when you wrote "a sphere will not have the same gravity for all those who live on its surface"?
One of the advantages of a sphere is that all its properties are the same at every point on its surface, because every point is at an equal distance from the surface of the sun.
To Michael from comment #27, my phrasing may not have been brilliant, but nevertheless, one example of my intention: in the ring you can give a whirling movement around the sun, and create day and night hours by rotating radiation-absorbing plates at different distances from the sun. In the ball it gets even more complicated. The sphere will not have the same gravity for all those living on its surface.
Regarding the excavation? A ring is not supposed to capture "all" of the sun's energy, but to utilize the sun's energy for a vast living space for endlessly reproducing humans. When the entire surface of the ring receives solar energy, and actually from that sun you get a much greater benefit.
Pine:
We mustn't forget that it could be that we are just celebrating Purim (those who dress up all year long as a great scholar actually take Purim as a vacation where there is no need to dress up).
Anyway - let's enjoy - at least the moment 🙂
fresh:
You are responding in the wrong discussion.
Here we are talking about Dyson balls and the desalination was only given as an example.
In none of the cases is it an immediate failure and in fact it is not possible to create an immediate failure.
Just as Dyson balls should probably be based on many small satellites, so desalination (I mentioned this in the discussion about desalination) can be based on many desalination facilities that are no more vulnerable than wells.
In the current discussion, Nadav did not even talk about the possibility of intentional damage, but only about the need for maintenance that requires humans, and to that I answered him that a solution designed for humans - he is allowed to rely on the existence of humans.
He means the danger involved in over-reliance on something
For example, computers or desalination or anything with an existential dependency that any failure/sabotage/malfunction/destruction of it may create a situation of a sharp and rapid transition from the reality we know and love to chaos that has the potential to be destructive to the core and in my opinion he is quite right. Humans can survive even without technology as they did Many years in the past, but here the danger lies in the immediate way of breaking away from dependence. If the breaking away from dependence is gradual, you can survive, but if the transition is too sharp, there is a danger of extinction.
It's not that we will be harmed by the fact that when we don't exist we won't be able to maintain desalination facilities, just the opposite, *because* suddenly there won't be desalination facilities we won't exist.
In my opinion, the solution to this problem should be based on the decentralization and dispersal of many small desalination plants in many different places because that way the missiles will not be able to hit them all at once, and if the plants survive we can somehow reduce and manage (at least partially) and thus the disconnection from dependence will be more gradual.
Michael,
I don't want to start here... but I did notice the amazing change in the site and the discussions that take place there after some people no longer bother to add their comments... I really enjoy the site more.
And to think that such a change takes place in just a few hours...
Nadav:
I see you still don't understand.
Why should such dependence be avoided?
Perhaps you can explain to me how we can be harmed by the fact that when humanity collapses it will no longer be able to maintain desalination facilities?
When there are no more people, no one will need desalination facilities.
Food is a dependency that cannot be avoided... In general, you should avoid any dependence that is technically possible to avoid, such as desalination.
Nadav:
Maybe you liked comment 23 but didn't understand it.
It says that the ring or the ball is expected to collapse if humanity collapses but - you know what? Any problem that may arise in the event that humanity collapses should not concern humanity.
If you take it to the individual level - it can be said that in order to live you need to maintain your body on an ongoing basis - for example by eating.
Your response, in this context, is equivalent to the statement that there is nothing to base eating on because anyway we will not be able to eat after we die.
Funny, isn't it?
And to the guide of the universe:
What is a sentence like "most scientists agree that a ring makes much more sense than a closed sphere" supposed to express?
In what sense does a ring make more sense? As a bagel?
The logic of a structure should be examined in relation to its purpose. If the purpose of the structure is to capture all the energy of the star, then a ring makes just as much sense as a shovel.
To tax 8
There are many ways to transfer the energy from the sun wirelessly to the earth, for example you can convert the energy of the sun into laser light and direct the beam where there are no clouds to hide it.
By the way, the idea with the microwaves that boil cities can be excellent as a weapon, so I guess someday someone will develop it.
I liked response 23, any kind of dependence, whether it is in technology for energy production or a health system or a water desalination system and any system that humans depend on in an existential way, it will eventually collapse in the long run and destroy all those who depend on it, even though in the short term it is can be excellent. Humanity should grow only at the fastest speed that independence allows, because only such growth and growth is "sustainable", meaning that it will also exist in the long term.
All in all, on the one hand, it makes sense because it can be said that the sun is one of the largest sources of energy that can be found in the universe, so utilizing them in this way sounds reasonable.
By the way, to anyone who claims that there is no reason for an advanced civilization to use so much energy, they may be right, but most likely they are wrong, because as we, for example, are progressing, the consumption just goes up and up.
And if they try to mess with time or any unclimbable project, I've heard that it requires serious energy D:
In any case, I'm pretty sure that this mapping is beyond checking these particular things because I find it hard to believe that they would really spend so much money on it just because of a hypothesis no matter how true it sounds. This must be just one of the uses of the satellite.
With the publication of The World of the Ring, many scientists took pains to prove some logical problems involved in the execution of such a ball.
One of the main problems of course, as it is presented in the book, is that such a sphere or ring requires constant maintenance, and when civilization collapses, it will never be able to recover, while on Earth the disappearance of the human race will not make much impression on the future of the sphere, and a completely new civilization You will be able to ascend in a few million years.
By the way, most scientists agree that a ring makes much more sense than a closed ball, although a closed ball has many advantages for the phobic breed….
in brief. The mere achievement of the scientific and technological ability to build such a thing eliminates the need for it.
Didn't a civilization that could build something like a Dyson ball long before that find an efficient way to produce energy or at least find such a way to produce energy at a stage that allows it to build such a ball (after all, in order to build the ball, at least in the beginning, a huge investment of energy is needed), which contradicts the need for a ball One for energy conservation.
Lior:
Everything we do is a waste of energy.
What do you think about it?
Does this mean you should stop acting?
Aryeh Seter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere
Dyson counting array = "a shell prepared for the purpose of absorbing solar radiation" 😐
:
This is a science magazine, people here like to hear new concepts, you grind some things too much and it's a shame...
In any case, in my opinion, if there is any civilization that can build this business in a way that will leave a star and emit a little sub-red... It seems to me that the materials that will be available to them will be able to do even more than that...
Maybe make the emission so faint that it is barely above the cosmic background radiation or even non-existent (complete stoppage of entropy and energy cycle)
It should be remembered that apart from solar energy, energy can be efficiently produced from the movement of the waves on the beaches and from the wind everywhere and from the heat that exists in the bowels of the earth, all of which can already be used and can provide more than enough cheap energy for all of humanity.
Theoretical searches in space are currently just a kind of waste of energy..
Isn't the Dyson counter also and above all designed to provide a huge living space (on the inside of the counter)?
And regarding the books of the science fiction (such as "The Ring of the Ark" and "The Exploding Ball" that Oren mentioned), we will also mention "The World of the Ring" and "The Engineers of the Ring".
First H:
Dyson balls are another solution - beyond all other solutions.
More than that - to use solar energy is to use the energy of hydrogen fusion.
When you melt hydrogen - some of the energy is lost. So it is with solar energy and it will also be the case with cold fusion.
The Dyson ball is designed to capture everything that can be captured from the energy created in the system and use it for any need (including propelling space vehicles outside the system).
It is clear that today we are very far from being able to build such a ball, but it is even more clear that if we don't think about it, we will never build it.
Interesting, it's definitely not necessary for extraterrestrials to use this or a variation of it (it seems to me personally that controlled hydrogen fusion would be the right solution after all the other energy attempts..)
In any case, thanks to Oren! 🙂
By the way, the silicon casting growth method I've been working on is called: multicrystalline silicon (compared to monocrystalline silicon growth).
The efficiency of a product is lower than the costs decrease by several orders of magnitude.
I found a link that explains in a relatively simple way about the problematic nature of silicone infections:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell#Silicon_processing
I also know about other production and cleaning processes for silicon intended for solar panels, but I can explain these techniques to you in a relatively superficial way.
I did some research to improve the processes of creating solar-quality silicon from metallurgical silicon-quality silicon. This is one of the methods being studied to reduce costs. By using silicon of a slightly poorer quality (called "metallurgical" quality) and silicon that mainly comes from silicon residues from the electronics industry, they could be recycled and by many and difficult cleaning processes to raise the cleanliness gradient to solar quality. Still cheaper than growing solar silicon from start to finish (not to mention recycling). that I was involved in the development and improvement of some of the pollutant cleaning techniques.
There are many innovative methods being developed such as chemical processes and more.
Of course, it is always possible to use silicon growth techniques that are used in the electronics industry. Until today, in order to produce silicon of a quality called "solar silicon", the silicon growing methods of the electronics industry were used, but with old equipment, one generation back, that the same industry would have gotten rid of. Because the requirements are lower in "solar" silicon in terms of cleanliness. So they would buy older equipment that the electronics industry had just stopped using.
But these methods of regrowing the silicon are terribly slow and expensive.
Pine
Are you in the field?
Do you know exactly how to make them? (photovoltaic cells)
And why does each meter cost about NIS 3500? What is Rothschild here?
The Dyson ball will receive all the wavelengths that the sun produces, but we will see in telescopes only in infrared what is released due to "energy-wasting" processes - utilization is not 100%
Why is it always important that an advanced civilization needs a large amount of energy to exist?
After all, it may be that their progress allows for better utilization, and the use of processes with low energy consumption (such as using a fluorescent instead of an incandescent bulb 🙂 ....)
Anyway, I wouldn't rush to build a Dyson ball even if I could. It seems to me that it is more fun to sunbathe in light of the full wavelengths, and not only in the infrared range.
Dan,
First of all, today they are trying to develop the technology of solar panels. But you will be surprised that there are many problems, because the production of silicone panels with a high level of cleanliness and utilization in commercial quantities is very expensive and difficult. I speak from experience in the field. There are indeed some approaches that we may develop in the future that will solve the problems but still producing panels in the quantities you are talking about is expensive. Of course, even a little can save energy, but not completely replace old sources.
Regarding use of space. How do you intend to send the energy to the Earth? Today, they are trying to develop the sending of energy with microwave waves. But this process, besides being only experimental for the time being (the energy loss is high and there is also a problem of dispersion), is very dangerous. Satellites that send microwave waves to the Earth can be roasted Whole cities not to mention the environmental impact and exposure of animals and plants to such radiation.
So like the Dyson ball, a ubiquitous solar panel solution is appealing but impractical, though much closer to attainable in the not-too-distant future.
Oren, I know what to do with solar energy. If humanity wanted to be able to solve the energy problem with solar stations on Earth, if we wanted much more than we consumed, or if we wanted efficient power transfer and space saving, we could place several stations in space. This potential solar area is tiny compared to Dyson's sphere.
Sounds ridiculously farfetched.
I don't think it makes sense to invest money in the hypothesis that if a distant civilization exists, it is probably so advanced that among its inventions, there will be this one thing that we thought of, solar absorption of the sun...and more in this specific way, through which we can see them.
Sounds absurd.
fresh,
A slight problem is that we won't have the tools to do this in the next billion years...
Dan,
for everything We will not be dependent on other resources (fuels, nuclear, etc.).
For those who want to read a good MDV book on the subject, I recommend Roger McBride Allen's "Karon Ring". There is also a Hebrew translation for those who prefer one published by Oved.
The sequel is called "The Exploding Bullet".
Recommend!
Considering that setting up a Dyson ball can take almost as long
Like the life of an ordinary sun (including of course the establishment of civilization
that founded it), that the idea seems to me to be completely absurd.
This is such a far-fetched and stupid idea that wasting people's processing power on a SETI project and generally wasting the working time of a satellite costing millions of dollars is simply a waste of time and resources.
This is an idea worth implementing because it will free us from dependence on oil, which is both polluting and not "sustainable" because the sun will never run out (or at least in the next billion years).
For what needs, according to Dyson, will the unimaginable amount of such energy be used?